Oral History Interview with Catherine J. Spain

[Interview Begins]

SCHANEN: This interview is with Catherine J. Spain, better known as Kitty, whose maiden name was Kiefer. She served with the US Navy Reserves from August 29, 1944 to November 20th of 1945. The interview is being conducted at her home at 241 West Beach Street in Grafton, Wisconsin, on January 7th, 2005 and the interviewer is Vicki Schanen. Kitty, why don't you start by giving us a little of your background--the year you were born, and your hometown, and a little bit about your family.

SPAIN: I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on April 13th, 1924; the second of two children to Harry and Margaret Kiefer. Eventually we had two more children; I had two brothers, who were born eight and ten years later. We had a very good family life, poor as most people were during the Depression, but we had a good 00:01:00life. We had loving parents. I attended St. Thomas Aquinas Grade School and Messmer High School and I spent two years at St. Joseph's Convent to finish my education, and after that--

SCHANEN: You went two years to Messmer and then two years--

SPAIN: --to St. Joseph's Convent--

SCHANEN: --to St. Joseph's Convent. Okay.

SPAIN: I had wanted to be a nun, and in the interim my father had passed away and my mother was having a hard time financially raising my two younger brothers; so I felt it was my duty to come home and get a job and help support my brothers. So after I graduated I left the convent, I came home, and got a telephone--I got a job as a long-distance operator at the Wisconsin Telephone Company. And while working there I became a supervisor after a short time 00:02:00working and I loved it.

SCHANEN: And what year would this have been about? You would have graduated in what year?

SPAIN: '43 or '44. '43!

SCHANEN: Okay. '43.

SPAIN: '44. '43. 1943. And I started at the telephone company then and eventually became a long-distance supervisor; and the war was going on and this was a top priority job--you could not be released from your job. Period.

SCHANEN: As a long-distance operator?

SPAIN: A supervisor.

SCHANEN: A supervisor.

SPAIN: --and a long-distance operator.

SCHANEN: Really?!

SPAIN: These were top-priority jobs and I had decided I wanted to join the service.

SCHANEN: Now why did you decide that?

SPAIN: I wanted to join the service to help my country, but I made the provision that my pay, most of my pay, would be sent home to my mother to help support my brothers. I got fifty dollars a month allotment. It seems like a lot, but it wasn't.

SCHANEN: Not for a whole month. [Laughs] Although they do provide you room and board, so.

SPAIN: And food.

SCHANEN: Okay. Yeah.

SPAIN: And after I wanted--I went down to the recruiting office and he said, "I can't accept your--

SCHANEN: Application.

SPAIN: --application because you are a top priority job." And I said, "Well, I really want to." So she said, You would have to talk to you supervisors at Wisconsin Bell. So they said, Well, we just can't release you. So I wanted to talk to somebody higher up, so they took me and they said they made an appointment with Mr. [John] O'Day, he was the vice president [and secretary] of the telephone company.

SCHANEN: Oh!

SPAIN: This little young girl--

SCHANEN: Yeah! [laughs]

SPAIN: --and they took me to the top of the Wisconsin Telephone Company, down on Broadway, and I met Mr. O'Day, who was a very nice man. And this was after V-E 00:04:00Day, if you remember the war in Europe stopped--

SCHANEN: Um-hm.

SPAIN: --so Mr. O'Day was very polite and kind to me and he said, "I'll tell you, Catherine, with the war going like it is--Germany has surrendered and all of this--," he said, "the war will be over in a short time, and then you could." And I said, "But I want to join now [taps table]. And we talked, we had a nice little conversation. He said, "I'll make a bargain with you. A bargain is a bargain, and if I give my word, I keep it. If the war continues for ninety days I will release you, and [inaudible] your service when you get out of service with the telephone company," so I will not lose any of my time at the telephone company. We shook hands. I said, "That's a deal." Well, the war escalated in the South Pacific; and in ninety days they released me and I was able to join the Navy.

SCHANEN: Now, do you know why--

SPAIN: I wanted to.

SCHANEN: Well, do you know why being a supervisor was such a--

SPAIN: Long-distance was priority, because you're doing overseas calls--

SCHANEN: Oh, okay.

SPAIN: --and in those days overseas calls and things like that were not like today, you direct dial.

SCHANEN: Right.

SPAIN: There was a build-up, and you had to set a time, you had to set a time for whatever country--it was just considered a very top priority job.

SCHANEN: You had to first coordinate times with another country so that you'd be able to pass the--

SPAIN: With another country, and you'd write on the ticket, it would go to that board, and it could be a day or two later before you could connect. Not like today; these kids got--it's a breeze for them today.

SCHANEN: Right. So, being, you know, operators in those times, especially overseas and maybe even in country here, you had to almost like set appointments and go through--

SPAIN: Exactly. Channels.

SCHANEN: --several legs--

SPAIN: A build-up--

SCHANEN: --to connect.

SPAIN: --because they called it a build-up.

SCHANEN: So you could get to maybe one operator who had to be able to get to 00:06:00another operator--

SPAIN: Exactly.

SCHANEN: --and you had to get this all lined-up so it could happen consecutively on--

SPAIN: You were made to--

SCHANEN: --on one day.

SPAIN: --call Chicago, and from Chicago office you could connect you to, you could say maybe, Denver or Seattle, and then they would call it a build-up and you would take your cords and clamp it with clips.

SCHANEN: Oh, so you had little--you were sitting at a board.

SPAIN: At a board.

SCHANEN: And you had to keep connecting it.

SPAIN: Yes, and it would be a build-up, you'd have to clamp these lines together.

SCHANEN: And even being in Milwaukee there was a lot of, they needed to have overseas facilities here too? I mean you always think of it being a on the coasts where--

SPAIN: No.

SCHANEN: --military bases and that were, and--

SPAIN: Everywhere, you know.

SCHANEN: Everywhere. Oh, because you had to be part of the relay!

SPAIN: Yeah, if you were in a local office that was not considered priority, but the long-distance one.

SCHANEN: All right.

SPAIN: I mean, it was a very enjoyable job.

SCHANEN: Now, did you have a friend that was joining the Navy or--

SPAIN: No.

SCHANEN: --relatives or anybody that was in--it just came into your mind you wanted to join?

SPAIN: Yes.

SCHANEN: And you wanted to join the Navy over any other branch?

SPAIN: And my mother was very unhappy with me. She did not want me to join, and I said, "Mom," you know, "I'm eighteen years old."

SCHANEN: You're her only daughter.

SPAIN: No, I had a sister.

SCHANEN: Oh, you did.

SPAIN: Yeah, there were two sisters; there were three children--

SCHANEN: Oh, she's older--you were the second--you had a sister and then the two boys were later.

SPAIN: Yes.

SCHANEN: Oh, okay.

SPAIN: And she finally reconciled. She, "Well, make sure you stay close to home." I said, "I'll make sure that I stay At Great Lakes [Naval Training Station]. [SCHANEN laughs] I had no control over it. But I [inaudible].

SCHANEN: So there was no danger of going over to combat at that time.

SPAIN: Not at that time.

SCHANEN: Women weren't in combat.

SPAIN: No. Not during World War II. But now they go into it.

SCHANEN: Yep. Yep.

SPAIN: Oh no, not during World War II. Uh-uh.

SCHANEN: So she just didn't want you far away, right?

SPAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She did not want me to go far away.

SCHANEN: All right.

SPAIN: Being my mom.

SCHANEN: So your ninety days are up, and he had to release you. So--

SPAIN: There was a whole conglomerate of women met at the North--I don't know if it's the North Western [Chicago and North Western Railway Company]? I think it was the North Western. It's no longer down there--the train station. We all met there, ladies came from all over Wisconsin and we got on a troop train.

SCHANEN: Oh, yeah? Do you want to describe a troop train to us?

SPAIN: It's really rough. [both laugh] It was really rough. I mean, there was no fancy accommodations or no lunches or nothing like that--we stopped. The train stopped.

SCHANEN: But you did say there were sleeping berths, or something?

SPAIN: Yeah, right, at night we would have a berth. It was the first time away from home, you know, and I can remember so vividly crossing the Sandusky River, or the Ohio River, into Sandusky, Ohio. I'm looking out of my window and I thought, What am I doing? [Schanen laughs] what am I doin', you know? And then we would stop--

SCHANEN: Your first time really away from home?

SPAIN: Yeah--that far.

SCHANEN: Ah-hah.

SPAIN: So then we would stop, as I said, at the Harvey Girl restaurants [waitresses in Fred Harvey restaurants;1875-1968, eating establishments mostly in the western US along railroad routes] to be fed, and we came to--where was that--to the Bronx [one of the five boroughs of New York City], to Hunter College, to take our basic. We had six weeks of training, and that was our reality.

SCHANEN: The Bronx!

SPAIN: The Bronx?

SCHANEN: I'd think the Bronx would be a reality! [laughs]

SPAIN: But you would not be allowed to leave, you could not go down into--it was a beautiful college.

SCHANEN: This is Hunter College. So it's a regular civilian college.

SPAIN: Yeah, it was just cleared out for the service.

SCHANEN: Okay, so the military kinda took over the--

SPAIN: It took over the whole college. It was a beautiful place. And I had my basic training there.

SCHANEN: Which lasted about how long?

SPAIN: Six weeks.

SCHANEN: Six weeks.

SCHANEN: And what did that involve--did they make you march and do calisthenics?

SPAIN: Nutty things like that. Hit the deck at 5:00 o'clock [a.m.], you know.

SCHANEN: Hit the deck, that's a Navy term. [laughs]

SPAIN: Hit the deck! [pounds table and laughs] Right down you came, you know, and, man, you know--

SCHANEN: [inaudible]

SPAIN: --physical [inaudible].

SCHANEN: You mean down you came from your bunk?

SPAIN: From the bunk. We had bunk beds, you know, and that was different, I'll tell you that. It was a learning--good--the first few days were hard; after the [bird chirping] inoculation you hurt all over, you know, but it was fine, we 00:10:00made a lot of good friends. We had to do our marching, and I can remember one day [bird chirping; Schanen laughs], we had the privilege--it was Armistice Day--we had the privilege of marching down Fifth Avenue for the Armistice Day parade and I remember that I was so proud to be able to march down there with my group.

SCHANEN: And what type of a uniform did you wear?

SPAIN: It was a navy blue skirt with a white top and a jacket, and a--

SCHANEN: Did you have a little tie or something that went with it?

SPAIN: A little tie, and you had your hat, and you also got an overcoat which was navy blue with a belt and then you had a beautiful Navy leather bag with an over-the-shoulder strap.

SCHANEN: So, having just come out of the Depression those were pretty nice clothes!

SPAIN: Yes, it was. And you got nice shoes, you know. The only thing is you had to have nylons and that was hard to get during World War II, very hard to get. Anyhow, we marched down this parade--

SCHANEN: They, did they provide those for you or--

SPAIN: Oh, yeah.

SCHANEN: --did you have to buy them yourself. Oh, okay.

SPAIN: No, that was provided for you.

SCHANEN: So they're another luxury that you didn't have--

SPAIN: We got them in your dress uniform, and you got a work uniform which was like a plain blue poppin or something, and then when I went to--

SCHANEN: That was like a, dress--

SPAIN: Yeah. Just--

SCHANEN: --with a waist, a belted waist--

SPAIN: --and when we went to California then we got seersucker uniforms to wear because of the heat and that. And, you know, we had this lovely parade, you know, and we had to--as you pass the reviewing stand they would say, Eyes right, you know, and you'd have to look at the reviewing stand and there was a group of horses--

SCHANEN: Just your head turned, not your body.

SPAIN: Yes. No. Just your head. There were horses ahead of us. Do I have to say any more?

SCHANEN: Oh dear! You had to watch where you're steppin'. [Spain laughs] Were 00:12:00you allowed to look down, or?

SPAIN: Straight ahead and eyes right.

SCHANEN: So how nice were these shoes by the time the parade was over [laughter].

SPAIN: No, it was funny. And after our basic training there, which is mostly all about the Navy--ships, where the starboard and the da-da-da, everything. Different battles and things like that, which I don't know if I remember anymore; and from there then they ask you what you would, what field you would like to go into, and I said, "Well, I'd like to get into the medical." And they said, Well, you could become a foreman. I said, fine. So--

SCHANEN: Now up to this point, like when you first went in to enlist, did they give you an option of what you might be training for, or it was just--you didn't know?

SPAIN: It was basic.

SCHANEN: And did you know how long you were going to be in?

SPAIN: They told you six weeks.

SCHANEN: No, I mean how long you'd be in the Navy, total.

SPAIN: No, that was up to you.

SCHANEN: Okay. Oh, so you just start up the--

SPAIN: And then from there--then they posted--no, they didn't post--from there they sent me to Bethesda Naval Hospital outside of Washington, D.C., for six weeks of training there. It was very basic medicine, and things like that. You 00:13:00didn't actually work on the wards. [inaudible] it was mostly school, all while you were there, [inaudible] medic and things like that, but it was six weeks of hard training there, and the very lovely place where we were staying and we happened to be there over the holidays and some of the people from Bethesda home were, people from Bethesda invited us to go to their homes for Christmas--

SCHANEN: Oh, that's nice.

SPAIN: --so two of my friends and I were invited to a lovely home for Christmas dinner. So, you know, the first Christmas away from home and--

SCHANEN: And had you been given any leaves during this time at all?

SPAIN: Not in--we had one weekend in the Bronx, in Hunter College, but you were limited. You could not go to certain places, and I don't remember where it was anymore. You could take the subway--

SCHANEN: What was that like after coming from Milwaukee [Schanen laughs].

SPAIN: It wasn't like the streetcar in Milwaukee, but it was different.

SCHANEN: Being in Milwaukee you had a streetcar, that's above ground.

SPAIN: Yes, yes, this was underground.

SCHANEN: Yeah, so did you get a little claustrophobic?

SPAIN: No, when you're young it doesn't bother you, honey. I remember my girlfriend and I went to Macy's and I thought, Oh, Lord. Macy's. Never did I think it belonged to Gimbels! The same thing, you know. [Laughs] But I remember buying something--

SCHANEN: I never knew that.

SPAIN: --for my mother. I didn't either until I got down there. And I brought my mother something. I don't remember what I bought her anymore from Macy's. And we toured the town, and we had lunch some place.

SCHANEN: Did Macy's have Thanksgiving parades back then too?

SPAIN: I think so. I think so.

SCHANEN: 'Cause you would have been in the area, you would have heard of it, probably just not been able to go to it.

SPAIN: We just had one weekend. That was it. We you know. And then from there then they posted different places where you could ask to be transferred to. The first one was--

SCHANEN: Oh, from Bethesda now.

SPAIN: Yeah, from Bethesda. The first one was Great Lakes.

SCHANEN: Not the place what you told your mom you were at [laughs]

SPAIN: San Francisco; San Diego, and I put San Diego down [laughs]

SCHANEN: And what was your conscience telling you after you told all those [inaudible] Great Lakes?

SPAIN: I had to grow up.

SCHANEN: Oh--h, okay.

SPAIN: I had to grow up.

SCHANEN: So you cut those little apron strings and--

SPAIN: Mm-hm. It was all right.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: And she knew that I--

SCHANEN: Did you tell her you had a choice, or did you just tell her that so you can make sense?

SPAIN: I did.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: She said, If you're going to be happy, fine.

SCHANEN: And why did you pick that, just for something totally different?

SPAIN: I wanted to see California--and go out to the West Coast, and I really liked it out there. And we went to the naval hospital, which was a big complex, very big complex.

SCHANEN: Now, I think when we were doing the tape for your husband, did you say it was like a U-shape, with several stories; balcony, veranda-type things all the way around, and a central courtyard there?

SPAIN: There were two buildings like that. It was a big compound, big, big 00:16:00compound. It had a golf course, and--

SCHANEN: Oh, the naval center did.

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: Had a golf course. Okay.

SPAIN: Mm-hm. Officers.

SCHANEN: Oh, just for the officers--

SPAIN: No, but the officers, you know--

SCHANEN: Wasn't--

SPAIN: Oh, yeah.

SCHANEN: It wasn't something [inaudible]

SPAIN: Not like today. No. No. No. And, ah--

SCHANEN: It was more for the elite at that time.

SPAIN: We had nice barracks.

SCHANEN: What were the barracks like?

SPAIN: Plain, open, [inaudible]. It was the hardest thing in the world for me, in the bathroom.

SCHANEN: Why was that?

SPAIN: No curtains on the stalls, nothing, and I thought it was [inaudible]

SCHANEN: Oh, everything was wide open.

SPAIN: Wide open. It didn't take long, they put curtains on.

SCHANEN: Oh.

SPAIN: So this was hard for me to get used to.

SCHANEN: Had they been men's barracks before this?

SPAIN: I really thought, I think they were. I think they were.

SCHANEN: Because I would think you'd want a little more privacy.

SPAIN: A little more privacy and that, yeah. So it was--I met a lot of nice friends, you know; and I like my job. I worked in Central Supply and at the Blood Bank. The blood bank would be where the young recruits from the United 00:17:00States Naval Station would come and donate blood; and they were pickin' 'em up left and right. They'd faint.

SCHANEN: Oh, no! [laughs]

SPAIN: It's like with these young boots, you know, they're like babies--

SCHANEN: Because they were giving blood or because they saw that they were--

SPAIN: They were taking blood, they were taking blood from them, you know; and they just pass out, left and right.

SCHANEN: Was it the sight of the needle, or--

SPAIN: I think so.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: I think the sight of the needle did it.

SCHANEN: And these guys were headed for combat, huh?

SPAIN: They were just, they were in their basic training at the United States Naval Training Center out in San Diego. And we would get the blood, you know, the nurses would draw, would take the blood, you would take it for processing and that and see that they got juice or cookies or something like that, like they do at our bloodbanks here. And then I also worked in Central Supply, where you would clean different surgical things that were used in surgery and that and 00:18:00re-sterilize and re-label them and see that they got back to the ward. And then--

SCHANEN: Back then everything had to be sterilized.

SPAIN: Oh God, yes.

SCHANEN: It wasn't the one-time use and throw it away.

SPAIN: Not like today. No. We had these huge, huge sterilizers--I'm surprised, they had to get something to pull this stuff out.

SCHANEN: And they were like big stainless steel--

SPAIN: Yeah, they were big stainless steel--

SCHANEN: --pots or something that--

SPAIN: No, they were like a tube thing, oh, they were BIG, in fact, we had some of the sailors working up there with us that was strong enough to pull some of that stuff out of the big [inaudible]

SCHANEN: I mean, needles, everything was sterilized and reused, wasn't it?

SPAIN: And had to be cleaned and sharpened.

SCHANEN: Oh, you had to have to sharpen them, too.

SPAIN: Sharpened, needles have to be sharpened.

SCHANEN: And back then there wasn't the fear of AIDS [Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome] and everything else--

SPAIN: No.

SCHANEN: --you weren't wearing gloves or anything either, were you, while they were taking all this blood--

SPAIN: No, the only fear there at that time was syphillis and gonnorhea--those 00:19:00were the two prime things that you were--

SCHANEN: That had to be by borne sexual contact.

SPAIN: Yeah, con--or needle stick.

SCHANEN: Or needle stick? You could--

SPAIN: You could stick [inaudible], too.

SCHANEN: Oh, really?

SPAIN: If you accidentally stuck yourself.

SCHANEN: Oh, okay.

SPAIN: And, um--

Schanan: Yet you had to keep handling these needles and cleaning them and sharpening them, so that was--

SPAIN: Then I would work, some weekends I would have all-night duty at dispensing Central Supply things, and that was sort of not too busy, you know, not too many people would come for different things, but, um--

SCHANEN: Unless there had been a big fight in the bars, huh? Then they needed sutures, then they needed [laughs] alcohol--

SPAIN: It was just the surgical things that the Central Supply would hand out. Most of the things in the emergency ward were there.

SCHANEN: Oh, okay.

SPAIN: But then--

SCHANEN: So hopefully nobody's fight was so bad they needed surgery from it, huh.?

SPAIN: Yeah, yeah. The boys used to take their, the Marines used to take their belt buckles--

SCHANEN: And wrap 'em around their fist? Really!

SPAIN: Oh, yeah, well, like I say, a lot of those kids they were homesick, they 00:20:00would drink, they had never drank, and they would fight, and it was horrible when you would think of it. I wasn't used to that, you know.

SCHANEN: No, I guess not.

SPAIN: No.

SCHANEN: You come from a loving family--

SPAIN: Quiet, quiet family, a very quiet background, you know.

SCHANEN: Now you were growing up in Milwaukee though, right?

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: So did you have much of that going on in Milwaukee at that time?

SPAIN: No. Milwaukee. No. No. No.

SCHANEN: Like, now, today there's always that. I mean somebody will shoot someone for a jacket.

SPAIN: You could leave your doors open.

SCHANEN: In Milwaukee?

SPAIN: Oh, yeah, you could leave your doors open. I can remember my mother and I going to early morning Mass at 5:30. You wouldn't walk at 5:30 in the morning in Milwaukee anymore.

SCHANEN: Oh, no. No.

SPAIN: Not anymore. But, again, I liked my job very much [coughs], and then after [coughs], after V-J Day--that was something to behold.

SCHANEN: And that would have been when?

SPAIN: I think it was August--I'm not sure anymore.

SCHANEN: Of '45?

SPAIN: Yeah, and I can't remember, was it the fifteenth or something?

SCHANEN: Okay, just a rough time.

SPAIN: But, I'll tell you, the city went wild; and we were on duty, and Bill was off--

SCHANEN: Oh, you had met Bill by that time! [laughs]

SPAIN: Oh, I forgot to tell you about this!

SCHANEN: Yes, how did you meet Bill?

SPAIN: [inaudible]

SCHANEN: You were in the Central Supply where the Blood Bank.

SPAIN: Blood Bank. He was a patient guard at the brink, and our Blood Bank was two floors above the brink and he would tease me to the point that I didn't like him [Schanen laugh] I didn't like him because he teased me all the time. And one day, oh, I was pushing this stuff cautiously down to Central Supply from the 00:22:00Blood Bank and he said something and they were all laughing and it upset me. [Schanen laughs]

SCHANEN: That's bad. And annoyed.

SPAIN: Yes. And when I think back, I said, "What did you say?" Well, he said my butt was like two teddy bears wrestling under a rug. [Schanen laughs] And I hated him [Schanen laughs]--for saying something like that to me.

SCHANEN: You were pushing this big heavy cart--

SPAIN: Yes! Yeah.

SCHANEN: --so, you know, you've got your arms way out in front of you, and your butt then is following behind. Okay.

SPAIN: Oh, my.

SCHANEN: And you're wearing what kind of a uniform at this time [inaudible]?

SPAIN: A blue denim one.

SCHANEN: Oh, blue denim [inaudible]

SPAIN: Blue denim one, yeah.

SCHANEN: Are these jeans, or?

SPAIN: OH, NO.

SCHANEN: Blue denim--

SPAIN: Just like a smock, with a tie and buttons in front, and--

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: Oh, no--

SCHANEN: All right.

SPAIN: --but I was very upset with the man and I just totally ignored him, thinking I couldn't care less about him; and, one night he asked me for a date.

SCHANEN: Was that his way of having you notice him?

SPAIN: I don't know [Schanen laughs] what made him say that. [Schanan laughs], because I was always cordial to him, you know, None of the other Marines that didn't bother me; and he asked me for a date, and I said, "Well, where do you 00:23:00want to go?" To the day he died I think I razzed him about it. I said, "[inaudible]."

SCHANEN: Where?

SPAIN: [inaudible], because he took me to Balboa Park, which is under the bridge connected with the hospital, so he didn't have to pay for it.

SCHANEN: But he wanted to make sure it was going to work. [laughs]

SPAIN: The movie was The Pride of the Marines--

SCHANEN: Ahh!

SPAIN: --with John Garfield, and after that we started dating a little here and there, you know, and we just took a show, once in a while we'd go into town to a show.

SCHANEN: Now how did you go from hating him to even accepting a date?

SPAIN: It grew. It grew. It just grew on you after a while.

SCHANEN: Even though he had been so nasty, huh?

SPAIN: Well--

SCHANEN: Because he must have done something in between there that a--

SPAIN: It just must have clicked. I don't know--

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: --I begun to like him, because he never said anything again after that. 'Course he was with a bunch of fellows, you know--

SCHANEN: Oh, when he said it?

SPAIN: He never said anything.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: But, um--

SCHANEN: He didn't have to sound like a tough-man, huh?

SPAIN: Just was--something about the guy that I liked after that.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: And we started dating and then he asked me to marry him then and well--

SCHANEN: Was this before V-J Day?

SPAIN: Oh yeah, that was before V-J Day.

SCHANEN: Oh, okay.

SPAIN: That was before V-J Day; and then when I had enough points I told him I was going to get out, you know, and I said, "I want to go home and visit my mother."

SCHANEN: So you said "points"--now, when you went in--

SPAIN: You had to have so--

SCHANEN: --you said you could stay as long as you wanted to.

SPAIN: Yeah, but then after these, these battles were in the, you know, the European was over when I got in--

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: --but when V-J day came, if you had enough points, service points, you could get out if you wanted to; and I had enough to get out, and a lot of my good friends in the Navy too and I decided I wanted to go back home. I was a little homesick. So I got out and I had to go to Great Lakes.

SCHANEN: You got out in November of 1945.

SPAIN: Yeah, and I went to Great Lakes to be mustered-out, and then I went back home and spent Christmas with my mother; and then I went down to the telephone company and they sent my service record to Southern Bell and I went back there and I worked there not as a supervisor but as a regular operator.

SPAIN: Oh, okay, so he didn't hold open the supervisor job, the day job--a

SPAIN: No, because I would have to prove myself to them that I could do it.

SCHANEN: Still do it again.

SPAIN: Yeah, but--

SCHANEN: And the technologies were still the same and that?

SPAIN: Basically the same. Basically--

SCHANEN: Things didn't change as quickly then.

SPAIN: The only thing different there is learning the different states and cities and that that you knew in Wisconsin, you knew your--basically everything around here. But I am sure that no matter--and I stayed with a friend of mine, and then after Bill was discharged--

SCHANEN: Oh, you didn't move back home.

SPAIN: I stayed home--for Christmas, and after Christmas then I went back to San Diego--

SCHANEN: Oh, you were in San Diego.

SPAIN: To Southern Bell. To Southern Bell.

SCHANEN: Oh, you're getting a job there now, not in Milwaukee.

SPAIN: Yeah. No, Milwaukee [inaudible] is Southern Bell. So I would get the good pay.

SCHANEN: I see.

SPAIN: They pay pretty good after a while.

SCHANEN: Oh, that's what you're saying, you knew the places around Wiscon--or Milwaukee--

SPAIN: Yeah, and I don't know all these places down there, but I learned, it didn't take long.

SCHANEN: All right, so this guy that said all these things about your butt you wanted to work near. [Spain laughs]. All right.

SPAIN: Yeah, so he finished out his time.

SCHANEN: But at this time you already knew you were getting married.

SPAIN: Oh yeah, yeah. He had already asked me to marry him. Yeah. And then we didn't quite know where we wanted to live and he--

SCHANEN: Before we go too far, you were starting a story before about what V-J Day was like--

SPAIN: Oh, wow!

SCHANEN: --and it was such an exciting day.

SPAIN: You couldn't move; it was--people to people, absolutely wild.

SCHANEN: On the base, or San Diego as a whole, or?

SPAIN: San Diego as a whole; on the base, because of those who had to be on duty, you know--people were absolutely wild.

SCHANEN: Now, how did people get this information? This means that the Japanese 00:27:00had surrendered--

SPAIN: That's correct. That's correct.

SCHANEN: And how did you receive that information; by radio or was there an announcement made?

SPAIN: There was an announcement made over the PA system there and people just went wild. So after I got off duty we went down into town, which was a big mistake because [laughs; inaudible], and that was the first time in my life that I really drank too much.

SCHANEN: [Laughs] The first time or only time? [laughs]

SPAIN: No, it was the only time, because I do not like alcohol, except that ABC Beer.

SCHANEN: Oh yes, ABC beer--

SPAIN: That's just like--

SCHANEN: --you were saying something about that--that's what Bill liked to drink?

SPAIN: Well he would drink it, yeah--

SCHANEN: Or the Marines liked to drink it?

SPAIN: --because that's all anybody could afford, you know.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: You couldn't afford any stronger beer

SCHANEN: Okay, and it's just like a no-name beer, or?

SPAIN: It's the beer that was made out there.

SCHANEN: ABC Beer.

SPAIN: Yeah, ABC Beer. Anyhow, we went down there and some of the fellows and girls got me to drink a couple Southern Comforts real fast--Southern Comfort is potent--[sighs] man, I'll tell you--

SCHANEN: Were you able to find your way home?

SPAIN: Yeah, we got back on the streetcar and those two dropped me off at the 00:28:00barracks [laughs].

SCHANEN: Dropped you off?

SPAIN: In front of the barracks so I could get in--

SCHANEN: Were you able to get in? [laughs]

SPAIN: Yeah, I got in all right. I got in all right, Vicki, but that was the only--that was a thing to celebrate.

SCHANEN: Oh, yeah.

SPAIN: It was really a thing to celebrate. I mean, young people today only read about it. We lived it, we felt it.

SCHANEN: Mm-hm.

SPAIN: And we--I remember seeing all these maimed boys coming back and we got a lot of Pacific boys at the hospital. The Japanese used flamethrowers, if you are familiar with those.

SCHANEN: From movies, yeah.

SPAIN: Yeah, and these boys would come back, you couldn't see their faces--they were so full from burns--

SCHANEN: Mm-hm.

SPAIN: --but they were so happy to be back in the United States--just to talk to 00:29:00Americans, you know, and we would go down talking to them, they would have 'em down in the veranda park area, you know, out [inaudible] or whatever because you'd could wheel 'em out, you know.

SCHANEN: Mm-hm.

SPAIN: Saw some awfully battered-up boys down there, and they were babies really, you know.

SCHANEN: They were. Eighteen--

SPAIN: They were babies, ya.

SCHANEN: --nineteen.

SPAIN: Never be the same and what have you, but--well, then I worked at the telephone company and Bill finished off his time at the hospital and then he had to be discharged at San Diego and then we got married down there at San Diego--

SCHANEN: Three days after he was discharged.

Spaon: Pardon me?

SCHANEN: Three days after he was discharged you told us.

SPAIN: Three days after he was discharged, on April 11, and--

SCHANEN: Okay. 1946.

SPAIN: And then we came back home in a week or two; and then, as I told you before, it was hard to find a job. I had a job, I was [inaudible] back there with Milwaukee, Wisconsin--

SCHANEN: Now did you get a job as a supervisor when you got back here?

SPAIN: Yes. Yes, I was a supervisor.

SCHANEN: Did you ever make supervisor out in San Diego?

SPAIN: No.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: Uh-uh. Because I wasn't there long enough, you know.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: I was there for, what, January to April.

SCHANEN: Oh. Okay.

SPAIN: No, and you have to prove yourself, and--it was a bigger office too.

SCHANEN: All right.

SPAIN: Basically it was the same but it was a much bigger office. Well, naturally, with all the service people down there--you had all the Army camps, Navy, Marine; but I started back at Milwaukee and then I was working there--well, I did two and half years, and my doctor called me, and when I was a little girl he said, Then you're going to work for me someday, and I just [inaudible] it off, you know. He said, "Kitty, I'd like you to work for me." "Oh, Doctor, I don't know if I could work in your office," you know. "I'll teach you things," you know.

SCHANEN: This was your doctor while you were growing up?

SPAIN: This is Dr. Bellars, I'd known him since 1930. Well, I said, "Can I try it?" Oh, I had been off a year for sickness--and I was off a year--and he called me in, he said, "I think you'll like it Kitty." So I came in and I started on 00:31:00part time, because I've got a thyroid condition, and I loved it. I just loved it. And Bill was still struggling to get a good job, well, he finally got this one at [inaudible].

SCHANEN: So you were now the assistant in the doctor's office, or what?

SPAIN: I was the room assistant. We had three other girls.

SCHANEN: So you would, like, get people in there and take a little history--

SPAIN: Take their history, take their blood pressure and pulse, and temperature.

SCHANEN: Now, were you doing any of that, you weren't doing any of that--

SPAIN: No.

SPAIN: No. No.

SCHANEN: --when you were in the Navy?

SPAIN: No, I was just at Blood bank and Central Supply.

SCHANEN: Yeah, that's what I thought.

SPAIN: Most of the nurses do a lot of that stuff. The ladies were assigned to a lot of office things or things like that.

SCHANEN: Were you called a WAVE? [Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service]

SPAIN: YES. Yeah.

SCHANEN: Okay, you were called a WAVE.

SPAIN: Yeah, corpsman.

SCHANEN: Corpsman.

SPAIN: Corpsman. Corpsman.

SCHANEN: All right. But any woman in the Navy was called a WAVE--

SPAIN: Is a WAVE. Was a WAVE. Yeah.

SCHANEN: You mentioned the doctor said "Kitty." How did you ever get the name "Kitty"?

SPAIN: My grandfather.

SCHANEN: Your name is Catherine.

SPAIN: My grandfather.

SCHANEN: Just because it was easier to say than Catherine?

SPAIN: That's just what he said! Easier to say then Catherine! [Schanen laughs] 00:32:00And I've been called Kitty ever since, Vicki.

SCHANEN: So you don't really care to be called Catherine at all.

SPAIN: Not anymore. No, when people would come up to me in grade school and they'd call me Kitty I was insulted, I didn't like the name, but now I like it.

SCHANEN: Oh, really?

SPAIN: Well I worked for my doctor for thirty-five years.

SCHANEN: Oh, wow!

SPAIN: He taught me X-ray, electrocardiogram, blood draw. I did a lot of the ordering for the clinic.

SCHANEN: And this was in Milwaukee?

SPAIN: In Milwaukee. And he wanted me to go on and become a medical, a physician's assistant. I was forty-two years old already [inaudible] I thought I have a sick mother at home to take care of. I didn't know if I could take the 00:33:00time to study. That's a lot of studying for that physician's assistant. He said, "You can do it," [inaudible] because he trained me so well [inaudible]. I learned so much about medicine from him. I really learned a lot from that doctor.

SCHANEN: That's pretty fortunate. You don't get those opportunities now anymore. Now no matter what you do you have to have--

SPAIN: He was one in a millon!

SCHANEN: --college education before they'll--

SPAIN: He was one in a million, and when he taught you, you learned.

SCHANEN: And you know, but back in the time you were growing up and that there were more opportunities for people to come and just get on-the-job training.

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: I don't know if that's even done--

SPAIN: I don't know.

SCHANEN: --any place.

SPAIN: Not even for a [inaudible] now. Yeah.

SCHANEN: Most things say you have to have at least an Associate degree and then--

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: Which is too bad because some people don't do well in class room, but they do much better hands-on, learning as they go.

SPAIN: And I loved patient care. I loved it. I would hear from so many of my patients after I retired, of course they grew a lot older and are gone, you know. But, um--

SCHANEN: So when was it you finally retired from doing this?

SPAIN: Eight--February 1986 because Bill was going to retire December of '86; 00:34:00well, it wasn't immediately, but I have a [inaudible] home--

SCHANEN: That was nice you didn't have to worry about working too [inaudible]--

SPAIN: --before he met me, you know.

SCHANEN: Right.

SPAIN: Well that's [inaudible] a good life.

SCHANEN: Mm-hm. Well, once you, um, you said you had made a lot of friends while you were in the military. Did you keep in touch with any of them?

SPAIN: For a few years. For a few years you'd write. You got Millie in that one picture. She came up to visit one time. She was from around Harrisburg. She came up to visit me one time; and there was a couple girls from Iowa that would, we'd correspond, but you know what happens--you get married, you have families and you have other--

SCHANEN: Right.

SPAIN: --and you forget after a while, but, ah--a

SCHANEN: What seems to be pretty common right now is, especially since computers and the internet has gotten--allowed--people to search for people, it seems a lot of military people are kind of looking for--

SPAIN: Probably. Yeah.

SCHANEN: --the people they knew--

SPAIN: Probably.

SCHANEN --and they are getting together now.

SPAIN: Just so many years.

SCHANEN: Yeah, well.

SPAIN: So many, many years.

SCHANEN: Then the thing I hear too is when you do get in contact it's like you just saw each other yesterday [laughs] even though you've had your whole life in-between--

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: --you just remember those times.

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: Have there been any reunions of any kind?

SPAIN: Not that I know. Not that I know of or any--

SCHANEN: If there had been that you knew of, would you try to, would you have tried to--

SPAIN: I don't know, Vicki, if I would have or not, would, probably would've depended upon where it was. I had a job where you couldn't take off a lot--

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: --because doctor depended upon me.

SCHANEN: What if something would come up now, someone says, Oh, we're organizing a reunion for the gals that were at the Naval Training Center between these years?

SPAIN: If it were close, I would have gone.

SCHANEN: Oh, you don't like to fly?

SPAIN: No. I have flown, but I don't like it.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: I don't like it.

SCHANEN: But if it were in Milwaukee?

SPAIN: Yeah, I might go.

SCHANEN: Probably head down and go or someplace in Wisconsin or Northern Illinois.

SPAIN: Yeah, I might go. Yeah, I might go then but, basically [inaudible].

SCHANEN: Once you finished your time in the Reserves you only had to be there just over a year--

SPAIN: Uh-huh.

SCHANEN: --because you had enough points?

SPAIN: Mm-hm.

SCHANEN: That was called the Reserves? Did you have any other time you owed the Navy after that, either after they--

SPAIN: No. But they could call you back if they wanted to.

SCHANEN: They could have.

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: For how long a period of time could they have done that?

SPAIN: I don't know.

SCHANEN: You don't know, huh.

SPAIN: I don't know.

SCHANEN: Well, if they need you today they can give you a call. [laughs]

SPAIN: I don't think so. [Schanen laughs] But I'm quite an old bag now. [Spain makes sound and laughs] [Schanen laughs]

SCHANEN: What did you guys do for entertainment on your time off?

SPAIN: Let's see, the girls--they'd go to town a lot, and shop. We didn't have much money.

SCHANEN: Window-shop, huh?

SPAIN: Window-shop. And, um, we needed to wear nylons, and nylons were scarce as can be during World War II because nylon was used to make parachutes for the 00:37:00military, so I remember one incident in particular, I'll never forget it, we heard that--I can't remember the name of the store, they used to have a branch in Milwaukee--had nylons on sale that day, and neither my one girlfriend and I had to report that day. We spent--you didn't have to be working, but you had to stay on base.

SCHANEN: Right.

SPAIN: And we jumped ship. We went under this--

SCHANEN: To get nylons?! [laughs]

SPAIN: Because you had to have nylons--

SCHANEN: And they didn't provide them for you?

SPAIN: No. Uh-uh. You wear Lyle, and I wasn't going to wear Lyle stockings if you--

SCHANEN: What's a Lyle?

SPAIN: Everybody knew what Lyle--they're horrible, thick [inaudible]

SCHANEN: Like cotton?

SPAIN: No, it's got like a rayon in 'em and they're awful. And they were even hard to find. Everything was used for the military, you know.

SCHANEN: Okay, but Lyle is what they provided you with?

SPAIN: Yes, or cotton.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: I wouldn't be caught dead [inaudible] with cotton [inaudible]. So each on the ship, we went under that bridge to Balboa and as we came out there was a guard asked to see our pass. We didn't have it. So he marched us over to the commandant. I'll tell ya, if you want to see three scared girls--we were petrified. Just for nylons.

SCHANEN: And you would have been how old at this time, like 1945--

SPAIN: Nineteen. Nineteen.

SCHANEN: Nineteen. [laughs]

SPAIN: Twenty. Scared to death. So he marched us to the commandant and started to [inaudible].

SCHANEN: The guard, or the commandant?

SPAIN: The commandant. Oh, the guard was a nice guy.

SCHANEN: Ok.

SPAIN: He was a very nice man--for ladies.

SCHANEN: Especially with what you're trying to do, huh? [laughs]

SPAIN: Yeah! [Laughs] You know, maybe let 'em go. No-o. It was his duty. Oh, the commandant was very strict with us, you know.

SCHANEN: And this was a man.

SPAIN: Yes, in fact he was a surgeon in civilian life.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: [Inaudible] strict, you know. He said, "Do you realize what you girls did? You jumped ship [inaudible]

SCHANEN: Now, jumped ship doesn't mean you were on a ship and you jumped off.

SPAIN: You recall in the Navy that--

SCHANEN: Just leaving the base--

SPAIN: Leaving the base is jump ship.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: When you jump ship. He gave us a talking to and said, "Well, you'll have to go before the Captain and have a Captain's Mast.

SCHANEN: Captain's Mast?

SPAIN: Punishment.

SCHANEN: Oh!

SPAIN: You have to go when they order you. I forgot what the guy's name was. "Sergeant at Arms will inform you when you're--

SCHANEN: Need to report for your Mast?

SPAIN: When you have to report for your Mast; so then we were scared--I didn't know what my mother was going to think, if I had [inaudible] or what have you.

SCHANEN: Now is this days away that--

SPAIN: I can't remember that--

SCHANEN: Okay, it's not like it was that day.

SPAIN: Oh no, it was maybe a week--

SCHANEN: [Inaudible] all this stewing in your mind as to what--

SPAIN: So we were confined to this compound, and the day that we were ordered we went over there and I mean we were sticky but there were guys lined up there 00:40:00that were going before him for a serious matter and here's these two pipsqueaks coming. [Schanen laughs]

SCHANEN: Two young girls who were trying to buy nylons!

SPAIN: Yeah. "State your problem," so he told them; and I think the guy really wanted to laugh because he was better for us than the other one. So he said, I give you girls--I think it was like sixty hours of extra duty that had to be completed by a certain time, which meant we had to do cleaning of the barracks and what have you.

SCHANEN: Or duty beyond what your normal assignments were.

SPAIN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: And we never jumped ship after that.

SCHANEN: Oh, you never did, huh, and you just wore those Lyle's, you called 'em?

SPAIN: We wore what we had. I remember sewing my nylons up, but, oh, God, it was terrible!

SCHANEN: Did your nylons have those seams on the back? [laughs]

SPAIN: Yes. [Schanen laughs] Yes. You had--

SCHANEN: You had to make sure your seams were always straight!

SPAIN: You know they're coming back, those ugly things. [Schanen laughs] Oh, yeah, you know.

SCHANEN: Now you were not allowed--or women didn't wear pants in those days really, did they?

SPAIN: NO. Now they do.

SCHANEN: Yeah--

SPAIN: Now they do.

SCHANEN: --but I mean even out of the military.

SPAIN: No, no, no, no. No

SCHANEN: What did the--did you ever suggest to the--well, I suppose you never did because it wasn't something women wore but, did you suggest that it would be easier to wear pants than have to try to find nylons?

SPAIN: You would never suggest that to your superiors. You listen to your superiors, you know. That's why I say, you know, life is so regimented once you've been in service because you know you have to be respectful of your superior officer, you know.

SCHANEN: Now you see posters of that Rosie the Riveter?

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: She was wearing pants I mean.

SCHANEN: Coverall-type things. Is that like the first time--

SPAIN: I never--they always say that. I think they had to for safety's sake in the factory.

SPAIN: But otherwise no matter what a woman was doing, she was wearing a skirt or a dress, so--

SPAIN: That's right. Yep, that's right.

SCHANEN: And the lengths were, below the knee.

SPAIN: Mm-hm. One of these [inaudible]

SCHANEN: I think for a while in the twenties they had 'em a little higher, but--

SPAIN: Yeah, the flapper days, the flapper days, then they did, yeah.

SCHANEN: --but that was just common.

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: I remember growing up my mom always wearing a house dress, but never pants; I mean, I was probably in college when--

SPAIN: First time I ever wore a pair of slacks [inaudible]

SCHANEN: Which would have been?

SPAIN: 1974. [Schanen laughs] And my husband said, "You're going to wear slacks?"

SCHANEN: Yeah, people don't realize [laughs]--it just wasn't something women did.

SPAIN: And now I never wear a dress.

SCHANEN: No, they're not comfortable [laughs].

SPAIN: And in fact, they're cold. I always worry, when you have a dress to be buried in because I didn't have a dress but I had a few that I went to weddings. So I gave them to the Goodwill. I gave them to the Goodwill because I said they're too big for me, they won't fit me anymore and I'm being cremated.

SCHANEN: That's right. You can always be cremated, or they always have that bottom half of the casket closed anyways [laughs]

SPAIN: Well you can buy a--from the funeral director, you can buy a--

SCHANEN: Just a top.

SPAIN: --what do they call that?

SCHANEN: A fake, just a front. [laughs]

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: Yeah, well that's not so good.

SPAIN: No. Uh-uh. But all in all it was a good life and I would do the same things over again, Vicki.

SCHANEN: Except try to jump ship.

SPAIN: That I wouldn't do. [Schanen laughs] I didn't tell my mother that till after I came home [inaudible; Schanen laughs]

SCHANEN: Now I had asked on your husband's tape whether there were any entertainers that were ever on your base--

SPAIN: Well, they were seeing the same thing I did because we were on the same base, you know.

SCHANEN: Right, and you said--well, we won't know it on this tape--

SPAIN: Bob Hope.

SCHANEN: --but you had said that, yeah, Bob Hope--

SPAIN: A lot of the--

SCHANEN: Yeah, Bob Hope; so they were USO [United Services Organizations] shows?

SPAIN: Francis Langford used to come there. I'm trying to think of some of the old-timers.

SCHANEN: And they would stage this, like, in that courtyard?

SPAIN: In that courtyard.

SCHANEN: In that U-shape of the hospital.

SPAIN: Yeah, because for those boys, and even some women, that were on the upper deck they couldn't bring them down so you'd bring 'em out on what we would call a patio today, you know, and so they would do the show down there. [Inaudible] the food basically was--okay.

SCHANEN: The food was okay. [laughs]

SPAIN: Okay. You know, like I said, I couldn't afford it--on fifty dollars a month.

Schannen: That's right.

SPAIN: Sometimes my girlfriends would--when we would go out--they would buy me something fancy something, because most of my salary went home to help my mom with the boys. And I'm glad I was able to help her, you know. I helped her all the way, took care of my mother. She was widowed at forty-two, so--

SCHANEN: And she probably hadn't been working prior to that either; that was something women didn't do either.

SPAIN: She was home [inaudible]. She worked for her brother in their bakery [inaudible].

SCHANEN: So when you were on board ship or whatever [laughs], you ate at a mess hall?

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: Yeah. And what was, you said the food was all right. Was there anything in particular you always remember when you think of that food?

SPAIN: Well, I was a very finicky eater. I was not a good [inaudible]

SCHANEN: Oh! That makes it tough.

SPAIN: They had good food, if you were a good eater. But, I didn't like vegetables and things like that; and roast beef, I mean--umph! When you cook it in quantities, you know, you lose something, but I can remember, I think basically I would have, like, scrambled eggs for breakfast and that would be it. They, they served good food.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: But it's institutional food.

SCHANEN: Anything in particular you'd look forward to when you knew they were going to be serving it?

SPAIN: Chicken. Fried chicken.

SCHANEN: You liked fried chicken.

SPAIN: And their sheet-cake. I was a sweet-eater. I love sweets. I still do. I still do,Vicki, just [tapping sound] the slab cakes that they would have, that Rosie would save for us [inaudible].

SCHANEN: Oh, Rosie! Now you mentioned Rosie with your husband's tape, too. So she was cooking for all of you.

SPAIN: Yeah, any of the guys and girls would go in there and Rosie would, um--with a sweep--remember the mammy in Gone With The Wind?

SCHANEN: Okay, yeah.

SPAIN: Take every step [inaudible] and sweep.

SCHANEN: Right.

SPAIN: That's the way Rosie was.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: Very congenial.

SCHANEN: Like a little mother hen type.

SPAIN: [Inaudible] We--we, she mothered us and we always took care of her.

SCHANEN: And she could fix any problem with food, right?

SPAIN: Yeah. [Inaudible]

SCHANEN: You don't feel good? Here, come and have this [laughs].

SPAIN: Yeah--yeah. So what else?

SCHANEN: Um, let me see here. Did you take advantage of any kind of veteran's benefits?

SPAIN: No, except for the GI Bill for our home. [inaudible] I had a job.

SCHANEN: Did women get the same type benefits that men did?

SPAIN: Oh sure. Oh sure.

SCHANEN: They did [inaudible]?

SPAIN: They could go on with their schooling with if they wanted to.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: But there again, I was still helping my mother, you know, and married now, and, you know, and Bill wasn't working [inaudible] earning that kind of money, so I stuck with my job until I went with Doctor, and--

SCHANEN: So that was going to be the next question, do you feel like, do you feel that any of the skills you were taught in the Navy benefited you in later life?

SPAIN: I think so. I think so. To be more careful of what you're doing and especially dealing with the medical profession, not to make mistakes. In the same way as we prepared our trays and that to make sure that there aren't mistakes--when the surgeons are looking for something the wrong thing is not on the tray and that, you know.

SCHANEN: You used the term, perfectionist; you were a perfectionist.

SPAIN: Yeah. I wasn't until I got into the Navy.

SCHANEN: Oh, okay.

SPAIN: And then when I worked for the Doctor. Everything was squared in the drawer. [tapping noise]

SCHANEN: And did you bring that home, too? Oh, yes, you're giving me this look like--

SPAIN: Yes.

SCHANEN: Was that a little area of contention for a while? [laughs]

SPAIN: No--

SCHANEN: No.

SPAIN: --we just simply say, this isn't a sterile [inaudible], you know, but I 00:48:00didn't always [inaudible] just so after a while.

SCHANEN: But he was very neat, too.

SPAIN: Oh, God, he was!

SCHANEN: But you were even neater, so he just said, Let's relax a little [laughs].

SPAIN: By his garage, he could do whatever he wanted to in his garage, or his basement. But not my house. [Schanen laughs] After Bill died, I got into his garage.

SCHANEN: Uh-oh! [laughs]

SPAIN: I got upstairs--

SCHANEN: And never changed a thing, did you?

SPAIN: Yes.

SCHANEN: Uh-oh! [laughs]

SPAIN: My nephew Bob came home from lunch one day, you know, he said, "What are you doing there?" I said, "Cleaning out the garage." I was [inaudible] everything down that I would never use, but I can't part with his garden shoes. I can't part.

SCHANEN: His garden shoes [laughs].

SPAIN: [Inaudible] but I got rid of all those things.

SCHANEN: Just because--was he a pack rat, or it was just stuff you didn't think you would need?

SPAIN: Things that I wouldn't have needs for, you know. He was not a pack rat, No.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: No. Things that he needed; and he kept everything--just so. [Inaudible] extremely, everything.

SCHANEN: Well then it had to be easy to go through things.

SPAIN: Oh, yeah. [laughs][noise] I can't use this [noise] I don't need this [noise] a lot. [noise]

SCHANEN: Well, that'll--

SPAIN: So I did it, you know.

SCHANEN: He made it very nice for you.

SPAIN: Well I always figure this way when I go the kids don't have to go through a lot.

SCHANEN: Oh, that's, that's true.

SPAIN: You know, I have to--

SCHANEN: And this would be nieces and nephews because you don't have children of your own.

SPAIN: Yes.Yes.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: And I don't want them to have to go through that all.

SCHANEN: Why is there such a worry with parents, then, and people who are the older generation; because it's like, I don't want my kids to have to go through all the--

SPAIN: I've gone through it, Vicki--

SCHANEN: Oh, okay.

SPAIN: --with my aunt and uncle--God love 'em.

SCHANEN: All right, but I just keep saying, well, don't worry about it, you know, if we don't nee it we'll just pull up the dumpster and throw it! [laughs]

SPAIN: [Inaudible]

SCHANEN: Some people just spend so much time worrying about what their kids are going to have to through--I mean it's nice to have some--

SPAIN: I like to have--

SCHANEN: --some organization.

SPAIN: --some type of organization, yeah, because--

SCHANEN: You know, like where the records are--

SPAIN: Oh, yeah.

SCHANEN: --or whatever you need to take care of--

SPAIN: Oh, yeah.

SCHANEN: --but--

SPAIN: That, in fact my niece is coming out this, supposed to come out this winter; I want her to know where everything is.

SCHANEN: Right. And that's a good thing.

SPAIN: I want her to go to the bank with me so she knows where this is and that is--

SCHANEN: Especially if she has power of attorney.

SPAIN: Yeah.

SCHANEN: Making sure someone has the power of attorney, you know.

SPAIN: I want her to go over with me to--what's her name--Patty, that works for Mr. Hynes.

SCHANEN: She's one of the secretaries of the lawyers?

SPAIN: She's related to the Hynes'. [Inaudible] Okay, she was a sweetheart.

SCHANEN: Pat Rose? She was Pat Rose.

SPAIN: Patty, yeah. Secretary.

SCHANEN: Patty. I never heard of her.

SPAIN: A sweetheart. I want to go over and have her make up power of attorney--

SCHANEN: Oh, yeah.

SPAIN: --and so she knows where everything is [inaudible].

SCHANEN: For health care, and financial; those are very important things. It makes it very easy for your loved ones to take care of you--

SPAIN: Exactly.

SCHANEN: --in the way, you know, make it clear how you want to prepare so that 00:51:00it's easy for them.

SPAIN: I know I think so. I don't want to burden them; they've been so darn good to me all my life, especially since Bill left. I mean I don't know why, but--this isn't going to be used--[tape pause]

SCHANEN: [tape resumes] Do you now or have you ever been involved in any veterans organizations?

SPAIN: No. Uh-uh.

SCHANEN: And looking back on [cough] military experience, what do you think it meant to your life?

SPAIN: It broadened it. It broadened my life in many ways. Accepting people. Meeting people. Meeting people. I was a shy person.

SCHANEN: Oh, really.

SPAIN: Yeah. Even the--

SCHANEN: Now, you said you're husband was really shy?

SPAIN: Yeah. But I changed after I got, I joined the Navy.

SCHANEN: Oh really?

SPAIN: I was more outgoing with people.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: [Coughs] You have to be. When you're dealing with people, and in the medical profession especially you had to, but, um, I was the talker [inaudible].

SCHANEN: So you think it's broadened [Spain coughs] broadened your experiences 00:52:00and made you more outgoing?

SPAIN: Definitely.

SCHANEN: You said you had wanted to be a nun.

SPAIN: Mm-hm.

SCHANEN: Do you ever regret it? Yeah.

SPAIN: No.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: Not with the changes in the church.

SCHANEN: Okay.

SPAIN: Never.

SCHANEN: All right.

SPAIN: Remember Sister Mary from St. James?

SCHANEN: No [Spain coughs], I came to Grafton in like '73.

SPAIN: She was out here. She was in, um--

SCHANEN: Oh. Okay, maybe I did. All right. Did you have any other stories to share? [Spain coughs] Well, thank you very much.

SPAIN: You're welcome.