Oral History Interview with Mary M. Kolar

[Interview Begins]

BOWERS HEALEY: And today is Friday, November 22nd, 2019. And this is an interview with Mary M. Kolar, who served in the United States Navy from June 1980

to August 2018. This interview is being--

KOLAR: 2008.

BOWERS HEALEY: Excuse me?

KOLAR: 2008.

BOWERS HEALEY: 2008. Sorry. Thanks for that correction. This interview is being conducted in Madison, Wisconsin, and I am the interviewer Ellen B. Healey. And this interview is being recorded for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. Okay, so we'll start with the basics. Where and when were you born?

KOLAR: I was born in 1958 in [XXXXXXXX].

BOWERS HEALEY: And tell me a little bit about your-your background in terms of your family life when you were a young child.

KOLAR: Mm-hmm. So, I was born in [XXXXXXXX], but when I was two years old, my

family was in a car accident in which my father was killed. So, my mother, due to that accident, became a single parent of seven children. Again, I was the youngest. It was in the days of -- without seatbelts. So, I went through the windshield and my brother, closest in age to me has a scar. Again, my father was killed. My mom survived it. Everybody else was in the back seat and-and survived. And it wasn't until at my mother's gravesite, you know, the day of her funeral that my cousin told me that they had concern that I actually wasn't going to make it. So anyway, and I -- she asked me if I was okay. And I said, "Well, the Navy thought I was." So anyway, so I was. It's just interesting family history when you learn it. But

--

so when I was four years old, due to a family dispute, my mom moved us from the farm that she was living on with her father, my grandfather. We moved into town, which was Wilton, Wisconsin, and I was raised in Wilton from age four until I left for UW Stout my first year, and then I transferred to UW La Crosse. So that-that was my home. We still have the family home actually in Wilton.

BOWERS HEALEY: And Wilton, Wisconsin, can you describe that or where it's located?

KOLAR: Wilton is fifteen miles from Tomah, not much farther to La Crosse. I think about -- around Sparta. I think about twenty miles to Sparta, about forty-five to La Crosse. So, it's a small village. Usually if people don't know what if I say the Elroy Sparta bike trail, that Wilton's in the middle. Quite often people know where that is. So small

town, very rural.

There was a farm across the street from our home. I went to grade school in Wilton, but there is a one room schoolhouse that is now a cafe in the town of Wilton that my siblings went to when we lived in Wilton. [Clears throat] It was -- by the time I went to grade school again it was in Wilton. Then high school, we bussed to Elroy was Royall High School. It was three towns put together, Elroy, Kendall, and Wilton. And that no longer -- arrangement doesn't exist anymore. Now Wilton goes to Norwalk in Brookwood.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, you mentioned one room schoolhouse. Was it a one room schoolhouse when you went?

KOLAR: Not for me, no.

BOWERS HEALEY: No.

KOLAR: I said, so my siblings did. There's actually a picture of them on the wall at the Dorset Cafe in in the town

of Wilton. But

in the village of Wilton, the -- what was a grade school that I went to, I think it's not like a city community center or a village community center.

BOWERS HEALEY: And then you indicated that you started out at UW Stout. Why did you start there?

KOLAR: I majored in clothing, textiles, and design. I did used to sew quite a bit. I enjoyed sewing. At Stout I actually had accounting classes as well, and sewing as a major became more like work. So, I transferred to UW La Crosse for Accounting and then ended up graduating with a marketing degree from UW La Crosse.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And you have indicated in some of the materials you provided me that you went to Officer Candidate School within three weeks after graduating. So how did you end

up in

the United States Navy and when did you sign up for the Navy?

KOLAR: Well, my -- the influence of the Navy was my father was in the Navy. My two oldest brothers are in the Navy, a brother that served in the Air Force and a brother that served in the Marine Corps. When I would be frustrated at school -- high school, I contemplated the Army. When I was going through college, I would contemplate enlisting. But as I completed -- was nearing completion of my college degree, I worked with a Navy recruiter. The first one that I worked with, I didn't get in, but then a sorority that I belong to with-with a fraternity. We had a career day, and the Navy was there and a Navy recruiter that was there that day. When I told him my story, he said that the other recruiter didn't do enough for me and

it's because

of him that I was accepted into the Navy. And then when I left for Officer Candidate School, you know, that said, I got into Officer Candidate School because -- it's because of that recruiter out of Minneapolis that I got in.

BOWERS HEALEY: Can you recall who that recruiter was?

KOLAR: I -- if I had my records here because his last name is at least ten letters. So, I can see his face and I should remember his name because, you know, I owe him for my career choice. And I literally as recently as an hour or so ago, I just had a phone call with a recruiter working with someone else. And that said, here's a recruiter that knows that there's another recruiter that gave up on someone and here's one that's willing to take that extra step. And so that's how I see it in hindsight. It might have had something to do with being a woman, maybe, but it was a male aviator who said, "I'll get you in." And

he did.

BOWERS HEALEY: And he mentioned he was from Minneapolis. Did you actually go through and -- well, recruited in through Minneapolis as opposed to Wisconsin?

KOLAR: Correct. It's officers. So, I assume that's where their officers' station was, where the officers were located, officer recruiters having later, you know, we'll get into it, done two tours in Navy recruiting. The officer recruiters aren't necessarily in every town. It's -- I think, even here in Wisconsin, they're probably the Navy's officer recruiters might be out of Chicago and Minneapolis still. I would have to look, but they're not throughout the state like the enlisted recruiters are.

BOWERS HEALEY: When in your college career did you sign up for the Navy?

KOLAR: My last semester.

BOWERS HEALEY: If you had not been accepted by the Navy, do you think you would have pursued other branches of service or not?

KOLAR: You know, it just never had this thought because, you know, I kept working with the Navy. I-I would

have

done something completely different, I think.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. While you were in college, did you do anything affiliated with the service at all?

KOLAR: Nope.

BOWERS HEALEY: No.

KOLAR: You know, I knew who my ROTC classmates were, you know, admired them for being in ROTC on college campuses, wearing their uniform, but not anything directly.

BOWERS HEALEY: Never had an interest in it or not?

KOLAR: ROTC? I don't think it was ever presented as an option.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: You know, even as I mentioned that I would consider enlisting, my brothers would always talk me out of it. So, because I was a female.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. When you were sought after by the -- and accepted, what qualifications did they ask you about?

KOLAR: For me, it's the tests that we took. And as I recall, it -- the tests that I took, everything

was high. And the only one

that wasn't was the mechanical parts. So, no surprise to me. I haven't done anything mechanical in my life. So, I think -- I assume that the recruiter that eventually got me and asked for a waiver from that section of the test.

BOWERS HEALEY: How about in terms of physical fitness requirements to talk to you about that?

KOLAR: Oh, I was extremely fit. I had at one point in college just put on so much weight that I was very frustrated with myself, so completely independent with the military. I said I got to lose weight. And so, I got into running. So, I was very lean and fit when I went to Officer Candidate School.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And so, three weeks after graduation, you were in -- was it Newport?

KOLAR: Newport, Rhode Island. Newport, Rhode Island.

BOWERS HEALEY: Tell me about your experience there.

KOLAR: Well, when you talk about the physical fitness,

because

I was so fit, I was used to running at least six miles a day and we were not allowed to leave the base. But for me to get six miles in without having to go in circles, pretty much I would run off base not once in that entire time did anyone ever say anything to me for running off base. Then there was a road race put on by one of the other schools while I was there at Newport. And I know I placed. I assume I got first for-for being a woman in my age group. That brought a lot of positive attention. The other thing that I did is when I got the book manual or whatever for preparing for Officer Candidate School, I made sure that I could do what the men were required to do. So again, that's why the physical fitness part of OCS was not a problem for me at all. It was it was easy.

BOWERS HEALEY: How long were you at OCS?

KOLAR: 16 weeks.

BOWERS HEALEY: And

what -- before you were at OCS or while you were at OCS, did you know what your military occupation was going to be?

KOLAR: Well, so at the time, the Navy called the branch -- the specialty whatever that women could go to, they called it general unrestricted line. So, the Navy's joke being G-U-R-L. And so that's what my designator was for years until they changed it to what we're basically doing the same thing, but they stopped calling us GURLs.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, when women got out of Newport, you were all designated to do the same thing?

KOLAR: Pretty much. I was in the largest at the time in 1980 -- had been the largest class post-Vietnam. We started with over 500 candidates. We

ended up with 300.

Maybe 10% of those were women and about another 10% -- so I'd say at the end of the -- anyway, there was probably less than ten women, maybe five, trying to do the math and recall accurately. But -- that had the opportunity to go to Surface Warfare Officer School. The opportunities for women to go to sea were still very limited. So, it's 1980. Women had only been at the Naval Academy since '76. So pretty much you were going to go to a desk job if you were a woman. The women aviators were breaking-breaking barriers at the time, but it was all about that time, the late 70s, early 80s, still a challenge, but -- and it was pretty much a given.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you were aware of that when you joined the Navy?

KOLAR: Yes, very much so. That the opportunities would be limited being a woman in the military.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where did you go after Newport?

KOLAR: I went to Dahlgren, Virginia,

went

to Naval Space Surveillance System. NAV Spur, I think we call it. So, we tracked satellites and other things in outer space. We worked with the other services, most particularly the Air Force. We worked with NORAD's, the North American Aerospace Defense Command. That's out in Colorado Springs, and I was the NORAD's liaison officer out of Dahlgren.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you get any specialized training for that or was that on-the-job training?

KOLAR: Mostly on the job, but yes, I was a CMC custodian, the classified material system custodian and -- even before I checked into Dahlgren, I went out to Colorado Springs for a class first.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what was that class about in Colorado Springs?

KOLAR: Tracking satellites and other things in outer space.

BOWERS HEALEY: Alrighty. How long did you stay in Dahlgren?

KOLAR: Oh,

I think it's about two years.

BOWERS HEALEY: How would you describe your experience there being it's the first duty station that you had?

KOLAR: So, it was interesting. I joined the Navy to see the world, so I enjoyed seeing Virginia in my liberty. I would go to Fredericksburg and a lots of times up in Washington, DC. So, it started in Newport. Any liberty that that had in Newport to just see so much of American history where it actually happened. That's what was fascinating about being in New England and then in Virginia just -- and close to Washington, DC. Just wonderful to get all that American history and witness where it actually occurred. The negative part was that I left small town USA where everybody knows your business or thinks they do. So, some of the negative things that happened at Dahlgren were people assuming they

knew things about

me that they didn't. So that that was frustrating.

BOWERS HEALEY: How large is Dahlgren?

KOLAR: At the time, it was small. Like I said, it was small.

BOWERS HEALEY: The Navy personnel there?

KOLAR: Mostly civilians. So, the command that I was that we were -- forget if it was 11 or 13 officers. So to graduate after 16 weeks in Newport with the emphasis on being a division officer, being responsible for enlisted personnel, everything that you needed to know to be a division officer and then to go to Dahlgren, where I was the most junior person, there were no enlisted at the Naval Space Surveillance Command. It is -- at the time it was focused on surface ship weapons. And so, there were large

rural areas where weapons could be tested and there wouldn't be people. So, we were really small. I spent a lot of time just driving over to Fredericksburg to see more people. I remember, you know, I think I could get my haircut for $2 and this tiny little grandma-run shop just outside the gate. It's completely different now. Both Naval Space Surveillance System is now the Navy Space Command or something, and Dahlgren itself grew it even after I not long after I left, it started to really grow. They were putting more Navy people there, but predominantly it was civilians.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you choose Dahlgren as your -- were you given any say in that first assignment?

KOLAR: You went by class standing? And I remember going in and to -- you know, looking at what was available and putting it down to Japan or Dahlgren, Virginia. And I thought Dahlgren sounded interesting. And the reason I didn't choose

Japan is because I wanted to just blend in and I was concerned if I went to Japan, I wouldn't blend in. So, life choices.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you know what the work assignment was going to be?

KOLAR: It was a little bit. I-I'd say a combination of both. Yeah. And that might have done it. My brother was stationed in Norfolk, so maybe I would say it must have been more the job. I would like to think the adventure. I would have chosen Japan, but maybe, you know, trying to remember my thought process that many years ago. Just to get a comfort in the Navy before taking on something like Japan.

BOWERS HEALEY: While you were there, were you promoted or selected for promotion?

KOLAR: To Lieutenant Junior grade. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where

did you go after Dahlgren?

KOLAR: I'm going to just tell the story since the impact on Dahlgren for since I mentioned people. My frustration at Dahlgren was again, I was a runner. I would -- and it was not easy to find people to run with. Not that many people are willing to be that fit. So, I ran with a corpsman, so an enlisted. I think he was E-5, E-4 or E-5 and the probably Lieutenant at that time -- the doctor in charge of the medical clinic that was on Dahlgren told the Lieutenant JG -- again, I was an Ensign at the time -- told Lieutenant JG, who I worked for, to tell me that -- to stop running with the E-5 because it was fraternization and someone had said that he had stayed at the Q with me, the officers' quarters, and he hadn't. But so, it's just really irritating to begin with

and

then followed by a female E-5 or E-4 checked in and another lieutenant comes to me and says, "Hey, you know, female so-and-so sailor checked in. She's a runner. You should get together with her." So that's, you know, I think it's a lifetime of being a woman in a-a minority, I'll say being a minority and just people not accepting that you can be one gender and enjoy the company of the other gender or your same gender or whatever and not have anything sexual. But to have people say that there was when there wasn't. But then, "Oh, it's okay, you can go run with that enlisted person, but not the other one." I just found that really frustrating about Dahlgren. And I attribute that to just it was just too small, and people got into other people's business instead of staying in their own.

So, I had

dated another officer candidate when I was at Newport, and we ended up getting married. We got married at Dahlgren and he was stationed in Mayport, Florida. So, I asked to leave Dahlgren and I went to Jacksonville, Florida. I was stationed at Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron 1, which is the training squadron on the East Coast for antisubmarine helicopters. And that was fantastic. It's 500 people in the squadron. The aviators attitude on life is just something to this day, I so much appreciate. They're [laughs] actually one of the department heads was quoted as saying, "If you've got nothing to do,

don't

do it here." You know, I have never worked anywhere where anybody said that which was just so funny that, you know, when you work in places where, you know, the busy work that will be found. But here was a person that said, okay, you get your job done, and when it's done, you'll go.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what was your job?

KOLAR: I started as the Drug and Alcohol Program Advisor, the DAPA it's called. And at the time, it was shortly after the Chief of Naval Operations had said, "We're going to have zero tolerance for drug abuse." The -- I don't know if you know the history of the Navy and the tragedies that occurred, literally aircrafts exploding on the decks of aircraft carriers. And then when they - on at least one or more incident, they tested the people who were involved, and they tested positive for drugs.

BOWERS HEALEY: And this would have been about 1982? '83?

KOLAR: For me

in

the squadron was I got down there by '82. But if you look at the Forrestal another accident that had happened -- so we had to change. And the DAPA before me happened to be another woman again, the jobs that we got, and she did not like to handle urine. I was like, well, that's part of the job. So, at the time when I took over the job, we were testing when-when she didn't do it, and 9% of the people who were getting urinalysis were testing positive for illegal drugs. I took over the program and implemented the program. And during the time that I had it, I got it down to 3%. Then I became the legal officer.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, before you go on to the legal officer duties, how frequently did you test each person?

KOLAR: I don't -- each person? It's a randoms samples. You

know, so I can tell you, since you go into further detail, that's it. Because that's what I was remembering is -- so it would be random samples. So, you would ask the IT people the information systems people. I think at the time they're data processors -- what the people that the early earliest years of using software systems and so not very many of those and not many people knew how to do it. The data processing. And -- but it was those people that I needed to depend on for generating the names because it's supposed to be random. So, it generated the names. Well, it came to my attention that there were -- one of the people who was generating the names, managed to never be on the list, you know. So, we did testimony, did test positive. And so, he was out of the Navy. But it was -- it was interesting to watch. You know,

at

the same time, I'll never forget the command master chief at the time when I first got there, was rarely there in the afternoon, you know, so the culture of the Navy changing because here's other people telling me, well, don't you know what's in his coffee cup? And it's like -- [laughs] it's not okay. It's not okay for the senior enlisted person. It's not okay for anybody, but particularly the person that was supposed to be responsible for the enlisted to represent the enlisted. And he's not there, you know, in the allegations or stories that the alcohol consumption and that's why he wasn't there. But we don't test to this day, I don't think, not routinely for alcohol.

BOWERS HEALEY: So back to the original question. Although it was random, you indicated that you got the results from 9% down to 3% while you were in charge of the drug program. Even the random, how frequently would an

-- a particular

individual get tested during the course of the year?

KOLAR: And probably once. I mean, because it was random, I can't remember how often we did it if I did it once a month or. I just really can't remember. But I -- you know, I'd say I can't really answer that question, but. With the odds, I would think it would be possible to not get. But I must have done a large enough sample that it came to attention that that one person wasn't being on that list ever. So, you know, again, like spinning the wheel, there's going to be people who somehow don't get on there. And then those who get on there more than once.

BOWERS HEALEY: Were your results made public to the base?

KOLAR: Good question. I know to the commanding officer.

BOWERS HEALEY: I guess--

KOLAR: I'd -- the training that I went to, I'm thinking we did have some sort of connectivity with certainly to the admiral to track how -- because

there

were VP squadrons there. Trying to remember what else.

BOWERS HEALEY: What I am getting at is--

KOLAR: Go ahead.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did the personnel -- did they realize that there was a drug testing system in place and that it was something that maybe they ought to change their performance?

KOLAR: Definitely. Oh, it was clearly known. Oh, definitely. Like I said, even I would say before I got there.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how was that message conveyed to them?

KOLAR: Plan of the day messages, officers' quarters. What else did you call it when you would have the whole command there? So definitely.

BOWERS HEALEY: And also, how did the Navy back in the early 80s handle personnel? Who were positive?

KOLAR: You were separate. There's--

BOWERS HEALEY: Any exceptions to that?

KOLAR: So, the story I have told more than once, when I was then legal officer working with at least two, maybe three different commanding officers, but

I think it was Commander Rogers at the time. I would make my recommendations to him when we were preparing for captain's mast. You know, that's the non-judicial punishment, the authority that a commanding officer has within his or her command. So, I was a legal officer. I would prepare the paperwork and I make my recommendations to the commanding officer. So, because of the Navy's position on illegal drug use, it was pretty standard, if not every time for me to recommend separation. Yeah, I know -- I can't remember if -- a brig time would normally be something beyond just testing positive. But I would say, if you tested positive, you were going home. Out of the Navy.

BOWERS HEALEY: Administrative discharge?

KOLAR: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: And there were -- I remember that would change sometimes too. The Navy would

just say,

you know, just when there would be more effort to keep people in and when there was effort to all right, just separate them. And I'm sure that's just the needs of the Navy and how many people we needed at the time. I'd say we must have -- 1980 was a big build up, and then I think it tapered off a little. So, I think there wasn't as much keep people in. It was okay, if somebody commits a crime of one sort or another, they were going home. [Cough] excuse me. But anyway, so one mast day. I had recommended to the commanding officer that the two people who had tested positive for marijuana would go home. And one of them was married with children and the other wasn't. And so, the first person to go to mast was the person with the family and the commanding officer suspended -- pretty sure that's the term where

-- okay, this is hanging over you, but if you continue good behavior, don't do any negative behavior, the charges will eventually be removed from your record. So, he suspended the sentence for the first person, the first sailor with the family, and the second person came. The CO said to him, "Your lucky day. You came on the day that I suspended a sentence." So, he's suspended his as well. What happened afterwards? They both tested positive again. And my frustration is that the family man wasn't thinking about his family. The CO was which was a good thing.

But -- another one there was a sailor who I just for whatever reason, just thought this is a really cool guy. You know, I appreciated what he was doing, his record, but and then the positive for marijuana just really wasn't consistent with his record either. But he went to mast. Pretty sure he spent time in the brig.

I helped him when he got out because one of the reasons I was concerned is like, "Why did you do that?" What if he had had marijuana in his seabag and it's in my car as I'm helping him get off the base? But I obviously I did help him. And I said, "Why did you do it? You know, you knew exactly what was going to happen." He said, "I came in the Navy to do one job. They forced me into a different job. I don't like it. I just want out." I was like, okay. I know you just -- the decisions of youth, I guess, or something. I'll be curious whatever happened to him. He was from California. I hope he went where people are now -- like now more accepting of the use of marijuana. But at the time we weren't. And those were the rules. So, you know, the other story I tell is that the commanding officer described me as being right to Attila the Hun, which now where I'm at is-is just hilarious to me that that's how I was described.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Now, in addition to being the-the

drug officer or the DAPA, but you were also the legal officer and you've gotten a little bit into that. What other cases, court martial cases did you see or experience while you were the legal officer?

KOLAR: Right. So, following being in the DAPA, I became a legal officer again, making those recommendations, doing the legal paperwork. I really actually enjoyed being a legal officer and contemplated being a lawyer -- to pursue that. I enjoyed the lawyers that I worked with. I continue to do so. My most -- quite a few of my friends from my naval career are lawyers, so I just really appreciate it. But the defending at the time, you know, that's like, you know, you have to defend people who are guilty. It's like, what? So, I think -- but bottom line is I didn't pursue it, but nonetheless, I did enjoy it. But one of the first congressional

inquiries

I ever got in which I've never forgotten, is the staff of a US congressperson called the squadron and was asking me about a sailor who we had sent to court martial. And, you know, why did we do that? And I said he was painting automobiles. He was painting automobiles haze gray. So, he was literally stealing the paint from the squadron, white and or gray paint and painting people's cars. So, I just -- it was just interesting to me how quickly the congressional inquiry stopped. It was like, okay. Yes, he truly was guilty. Appreciate your time. But also, just the nonsense of people who steal and thought they could get away with stealing and then actually stealing Navy paint and using it to paint other people's cars.

BOWERS HEALEY: And making a profit at it.

KOLAR: Trying -- probably didn't pay the legal bills and

life

after the Navy, after you have a bad discharge.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, a large base at Jacksonville and you had the opportunity, I assume, to have enlisted personnel under you.

KOLAR: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how would you describe that experience compared to Dahlgren?

KOLAR: I had a tremendous experience in Jacksonville. I just -- it was just such a completely different place, except for -- I will say -- it would be really funny when a new female would check in, literally I had people say, "Hey, Mary, you should meet so-and-so. She's a woman." You know, like, "You know her, right?" You're just saying, how would I know half of the female or half of the world's population? So, it would just be funny when things like that were said. But one of the very funnest was there was a woman

that was in the squadron. And I think she was an aviation mechanic, but Jacksonville, Naval Air Station Jacksonville. So, I was at HS-1, but HS-1 was on board Naval Air Station Jacksonville and Naval Air Station Jacksonville had a yacht club. The yacht club was two mobile homes put together, you know, two prefab homes, whatever, put together that that was the quote "yacht club." It was honor system for drinks. You just put your money in the cup, whatever. But they're on the water on the St. Johns and we had sailboats. So, Trish was -- had been sailing since she was four years old. I can't remem-- I must have sailed with her before this event. But what the British Navy and the US Navy, if they have the sailing crews, I guess what it was is the,

I think it was the HMS Point Port Royal. Anyway, a British ship pulled in and so they challenged the Navy to -- the US Navy -- to a sailing competition. So, Trish and I were one of the sailing teams against the British, and we won. So that was a lot of fun, too. And-and she was the captain. Like I said, I had just took sailing lessons at NAS Jax, so I had never sailed before in my life. But I know how to follow orders. And, you know, so here's Trish, the petty officer and me, the lieutenant, probably by then, but she's the captain of the boat, just like in the Navy. So that was a lot of fun.

BOWERS HEALEY: Any other experiences while you were down at Jacksonville that stand out?

KOLAR: Just the fantastic -- working with the Naval aviators. My -- who became my ex-husband, but he-he

was stationed out of Mayport, so but he was commuting when he was home and then he was on deployments. One of the funnier stories of them being deployed was one of the other wives, actually was the wife of the executive officer of his ship had a social for the wives. And so, this was on the -- you know, I was in Jacksonville, they were in Mayport. So, I go to the north side of the city for this get together. And her son kept coming in and he's like nine or ten. He kept coming in and saying, "Come see Charley, come see Charley." You know, and this child wants you to come out and see Charley. And I said to her, I said, "Who's Charley?" "Oh, it's some imaginary alligator," she says. I'm like, I don't know. So, I go outside [laughs] and there's a cul-de-sac -- not a cul-de-sac -- culvert. There's an alligator. [Both

laugh] So I had to go back in there and tell her, "You got an alligator out there. You probably ought to watch the kids. And if you got a dog or a cat, too," But I just never forgot that. No, Charley's real. So, it's Jacksonville and, you know, the Jacksonville golf course that when we would have -- it must been a command day at the golf course something -- again, I don't golf, so I drove the cart and, yep, there's alligators.

So, another really fun experience was we're training squadron, so a group of German air crew came in so the-the pilots and their enlisted crew and they asked for volunteers to be a sponsor while they were there. And the German I ended up sponsoring it just wanted to see everything he could of America while he was there. They couldn't even been there six weeks, but I think they arrived like on a Thursday. We have our command picnic on Friday

and one of our best sailors that I had worked with, he didn't report to me, but he had been Sailor of the year, so I had worked with him. It's just a phenomenal sailor. But he was on a motorcycle having left the command picnic, went out in town, he -- just down the road where there is another place to get alcohol. So, both he and the sailor he was giving a ride to got hurt really bad coming back in, they got hit. And so, on that Sunday morning, I saw him in the NAS Jax Hospital with I think one leg had already been irritated, probably below the knee and the other one was up in traction.

BOWERS HEALEY: The sailor.

KOLAR: The sailor. And, you know, so I saw him, and I go home and like at 1:00 Norbert the German calls and says, "Hey, I bought a motorcycle, you want to go for a ride?" And I that day I didn't. I did end up -- because what was so impressive

about the Germans

was if-if there was going to be alcohol consumption, there was a designated driver, and they would not touch it. We had had a social where our-our American Navy, one of my peers, another lieutenant, who was supposed to be the designated driver, and they saw him drinking alcohol and they were right on me, "Hey, Mary, you know, [Dane's??] having alcohol because he was supposed to be the designated driver." So that's why I think I ended up trusting that Norbert -- it's kind of a risk on a motorcycle but back to -- he was going to see the world. So, we go down to St. Augustine. We'd go up to Okefenokee Swamp, you know, he would call up -- you know, instead of me being the sponsor to say, "Would you like to see this today?" It's like, "Hey, we're going here today."

And because of my relationship with other officers in the squad and I was trusted with taking all of them and hundreds of dollars to Epcot, Orlando and take them to Epcot. Ep-- Ep--cot. Didn't want to mix it with Epic here. Oh,

where else would we go? Anyway -- places in Orlando, probably SeaWorld and stuff. So that was tremendous. Again, the squadron in Florida -- I flew for training -- for the aviators to do training -- I was able to go along with a flight from Jacksonville down to Key West. That was just fantastic. Another time they were going up to DC, I got to ride up with that on that trip. I've never forgotten because we kept being delayed. We're supposed to leave at 5:00 on Friday, but we kept being delayed and I think we didn't take off till almost midnight. So, when I get on the helicopter and I have that really heavy helmet on and falling asleep, that's I just remember, you know, how your head bobs and your bobs with a helmet on, it hurts. But I was that tired and I'm like, that's lightning out there. And sure enough, we landed in Beaufort, South Carolina.

BOWERS HEALEY: Because of the lightning?

KOLAR: Because

of the lightning. And then I forget, I think we finally left at five. But I just felt for those pilots so much. Here they're probably thinking of doing some fun things in DC. I bet they -- I would like to think they slept, you know, before we had to fly back again. Yeah, that was -- that was quite the experience. The best thing about flying in a helicopter is just how much you can see. Seeing the East Coast between DC and Florida on the way back but seeing the Everglades when we went to Key West. So really cool.

BOWERS HEALEY: Talk a little bit about the alcohol culture from the time that you came in, probably through the entire career. I know I'm jumping ahead chronologically, but you made mention that at your first duty station there was a command master chief who--

KOLAR: That was Jackson. So, the second one.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. What changes, if any, did you see throughout your career?

KOLAR: It's changed. I think -- it's not as acceptable to consume as much alcohol as I'd say earlier. I'd like to think that it's steadily gotten to be more focused on families, the whole family. So, it's not just -- I'll just say it -- the guy's going out and getting drunk or drinking, and-and--. I think it still exists. I -- our oldest is in the Navy and just that expectation when you get promoted or whatever, that it's still there. But he's a submarine or so it's still very male dominated so. Go ahead.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. [Clears throat] And along with that, any changes that you saw with respect to how the officers'

clubs

were operated from the early 80s until later on?

KOLAR: Well, that's -- so when I was at NAS Jax, the club was really a place to go, as was the club in Mayport. But again, I think because of more options that people had, I see that the clubs, as far as I know -- and you know, I've been out for more than ten years -- there's just not that many stand-alone officer clubs or enlisted clubs. It's a combined club. Trying to think what Fort McCoy is now. That's a combined club, isn't it? But anyway, I don't know.

BOWERS HEALEY: That's my understanding.

KOLAR: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yes. Okay. Your next duty station, where was it? Did you have any input into going into your next duty station?

KOLAR: So, again,

still being

at the time, married to my first husband, he got orders to Surface Warfare Officers School. And so, then I asked to go back to Newport also, and I went to Officer Indoctrination School. So, I was an instructor and company officer for the Staff Corps officers, that's everyone -- the staff were doctors, lawyers, nurses and the onesies-twosies like nuclear power training officers. Those are specially selected people that are commissioned before they even attend school because they are being hired for their specialties -- were recruited from their specialties.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you said you were an instructor there?

KOLAR: Yeah. Instructor and company officer.

BOWERS HEALEY: Officer. How long did you stay in that billet?

KOLAR: I think it's about two years, or so. I think I have that there. I

ended

up spending a total of six years in Newport. I was at OIS, Officer Indoctrination School, I was then at the Naval War College as staff, and then I was able to go to the Naval War College as a student.

BOWERS HEALEY: All at one time or did you have a break in that six years?

KOLAR: These are all different commands.

BOWERS HEALEY: All different commands, but you stayed at Newport?

KOLAR: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: During that six years?

KOLAR: Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: So, it's -- must be about -- between OIS and the Naval War College staff. It's about 5 years plus. But as a student, I started in the fall and completed in June of '91. So, it's '85 to '91. That 6 years.

BOWERS HEALEY: From '87 to '90, you indicate that you were Commanding Officer, staff, enlisted, administrative support services division head, Wargaming

Department.

KOLAR: Of the Naval War College.

BOWERS HEALEY: At the Naval War College. So, tell me more about those-those billets.

KOLAR: You don't want to hear more about OIS?

BOWERS HEALEY: About what?

KOLAR: OIS.

BOWERS HEALEY: [Both laugh] OIS.

KOLAR: You skipped OIS. That was--

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, tell me about OIS.

KOLAR: You know, it's-it's significant as well because being unsure duty with my then husband really just highlighted the fact that I shouldn't be married to him. But in speaking of alcohol, he was definitely an alcoholic. I -- and that definitely influenced my decision to ask for a divorce. The -- just the alcohol consumption was amazing. It didn't matter what time he got home, the alcohol consumption would start, and if we didn't have alcohol in our home, we would go out and spend more money because you're paying for it out. So again, I was -- instructed OIS,

I

really enjoyed it. I had a lot of responsibility.

Bottom line is I did divorce my husband. I -- because of the friends I had I was able to live with some friends for a while until I got my own place. And that was an absolutely fantastic place. Actually, the house that I rented was owned by a retired -- the retired Chief of Chaplains, actually, and his wife. So that was the house that that I ended up sharing with my now husband. I -- my -- Scott, my husband, was an instructor at Officer Candidate School and -- which I knew him, I would see him at the club, but I didn't actually have anything to do with him until he was getting -- he was separating from the Navy. I guess [laugh] I would tell my students

who would meet him, "He needs an air cut." He's an aviator. So, you know, just pushing the lines of what's acceptable. So, it was funny.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did he separate from the Navy at 20 years or before that?

KOLAR: No, as a Lieutenant. He did not get selected for Lieutenant Commander. So, he separated at nine years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: So, you know, that's one of the reasons he was a Newport. If he -- if his career was on the upward trajectory, he would have been in a squadron. But that's what the war fighter designators do. And again, my experience, and you ask about women, for women being on an instructor duty or recruiting duty, we -- those are career milestones for us doing well. We expect to get promoted and it can be very frustrating. You can work with the warfighters, warfare qualified aviators, surface warfare officers, or submariners

who are

extremely competent and for whatever reason didn't make it in their designator. But you have some where it's just like, "Really?" You just get so frustrated at the Navy because here was a person that couldn't lead.

You know, I saw too many times in -- at training commands and or in recruiting where people were given positions, particularly those of us as an executive officer or commanding officer that should not have been. And it just it's so disruptive to an enlisted career. [Just FYI??] there's one in the news in the last year or so where a Surface [Opps??] Warfare officer who had already had problems on a ship and then got sent to a recruiting district. He ruined so many careers before the Navy finally fired him. And I just so feel for those Navy recruiters who had anticipated a good career, but because of what he did to them, it was over. And it was

-- but anyway.

That when you ask it -- it's just a reality of my experience in the military that, yes, as a woman with the options that I had when I came in, it's it is shore duty, which I appreciate not being allowed to go into the warfare specialties at the time. And it's still very competitive. But just my frustration of seeing the less than stellar officers being assigned to commands.

BOWERS HEALEY: Do you think sometimes that may have been because although they did not shine or their forte was not leadership, not management, but perhaps because they were technically proficient in their warfare duties, whether they were good fliers or good mechanics or whatever the case may be.

KOLAR: So, you need to be a leader. You know, the idea of being a executive officer -- executive officer who has so much control over a person's life.

And,

you know, we're going to get to when I was at Recruit Training Command, but I remember having Executive Officer Inquiry when I was XO at RTC in a Recruit Division Commander who had had a relationship with recruit. They're not supposed to, and it was because of her -- the recruit's follow-on command, the brand-new sailor. She actually told her leadership in Washington, DC that they needed to do what she wanted them to do for her because her husband was a chief at Great Lakes. You know, so then I end up taking him to XOI and he had been our Sailor of the Year. He was just so squared away. But I remember saying to him, "You-you are God to-to recruits that are going through recruit training."

And that's how it is as a commanding officer, you do have the responsibility of people's lives. So to -- I said, "I understand why, needs in the Navy"

or whatever. Or this person can retire in a few years so we're going to put them in a leadership role. But it's a leadership role. Navy recruiting is critical. So having seen in two tours what recruiters have to do the stress on their life to make their recruiting goals, to speak highly of the Navy, to encourage people to join the Navy. And while their commanding officer is doing inappropriate things and treating them like-like they shouldn't be treated. They were disrespected and abused. And so, I appreciate your question, but it was frustrating.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Fair enough. All right. So, we were talking about OIS.

KOLAR: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: We kind of jumped over there. I don't know if you want to talk more about OIS and--.

KOLAR: Again, the doctors, the lawyers, the nurses, lifetime

friends.

It's just fascinating to me that as a person, I don't even think she was in my company, but she-she remembered me. And then she ended up being a Medical Service Corps officer assigned at Great Lakes. And then we stayed in touch after Great Lakes working together. And now she is an administrator at the Armed Forces Home in Washington, DC. So, when I was out there for a conference of my peers in February, I got to go out and see the armed forces home, learn from her and we-we can share experiences. So, OIS that again, that lifetime of friendships that resulted from being able to be with these cadre of professionals. And then also, you know, officer candidate,

school

meeting, my husband and the other officer trainers who were there, whether it was Officer Candidate School or at naps, the Naval Academy prep school was there, and it's Newport, you know. So, again, just absolutely beautiful place. Friends I made there-there was a person who was an aide to the commanding officer of the base. She was going through a divorce when I was going through a divorce. I remember just meeting her and saying, you want to go on this trip that are the moral welfare workers having. I think we would enjoy one another. And she-she too, is a lifetime friend. Yeah, Newport's kind of spending time there, but absolutely beautiful place.

BOWERS HEALEY: What was your next assignment at Newport?

KOLAR: Correct. So, at the Naval War College, I went -- they needed a officer

in charge of the enlisted at the Wargaming Department. So, one other person and I were interviewed for the job. They were -- they must have just wanted somebody really quick. So why they looked on the base first instead of Navy wide. But there was one other person who interviewed, and I interviewed in the command -- I don't think his name was -- title was commanding officer. But the director of the Wargaming Department, Navy captain, asked me why I wanted to work at the Naval War College, and I said, "I'm always in awe of this place." And I was a lieutenant at the time. And he said, "Well, lieutenant should be in awe of the Naval War College." So, it was actually, again, another great experience. I was responsible for the enlisted assigned there, think about 30 people. And I was also responsible for the classified material that

were

used for the Wargaming Department. [A voice can be heard from the outside, "Are we going to the left?"] It's a tow truck.

BOWERS HEALEY: [Both laugh] So some sort of noise going on outside.

KOLAR: Yeah, I didn't know if it was a--

BOWERS HEALEY: Appears not to be within the building here.

KOLAR: There's that car stalled right there or something. So that's why the tow trucks can you see? Anyway, let's get back to this.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. So, you're in charge of enlisted and approximately 30 enlisted personnel under you at that time that you were responsible for.

KOLAR: And another lifetime friend. I just -- one of the first people I met who worked for me. But what we went through at the Naval War College and then -- and since then, like I said, she and her husband just visited us this summer. So, again, another

lifetime relationship or friendship.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you indicated that during your off time you worked on a master's degree.

KOLAR: Well, thank you. Yes. Thankfully, when I was at OIS, a friend -- again a lifetime friend, that I worked with at Officer Candidate School, you know, reminded me or pointed out that, "Hey, for our careers, you know, we really need to get a master's degree." And so University of Rhode Island was very good at working, supporting the military. And so, I was able to during my off time when I wasn't at work, go to classes on base quite often. It wasn't until you would be nearing completion that you couldn't guarantee you're going to take the classes on the base. And so, we would go to Kingston, either Kingston or Providence considering -- depending on where UR -- URI

was holding the classes. So also, is again, when I started dating my husband, I'm still working on the master's degree. So, working on it when we had Matthew. But I, you know, took four years. And when I was completing my practicum for-for the final project to get my master's degree in adult education, I was in labor, and I was typing as fast as I could. So literally I finished it. I turned it in, and then I went to the hospital and had Jamie, our second born.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: So, that's how I got that degree. And then I remember when -- then afterwards when I went, you know, to get it and our facilitator, whatever was saying to the rest of the class, don't do it the way she did it. So I'm like, I'm fine, you know, but I did do it, so it's okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: And then you were selected for

the Naval War

College?

KOLAR: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: So, I was staff at the Naval War College, but there was an opening for that fall class. So, I ended up being the most junior person. I made lieutenant commander while I -- I think they you have to be a lieutenant commander to go there, I was selected, so they -- I don't know if they still do it, but what's called frocking, you can wear the rank even though you're not getting paid for it. So they -- those of us who weren't yet actually wearing lieutenant commander, were actually had a ceremony there where we did get to wear.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, you said there was an opening. So, was there a selection process or was it?

KOLAR: I definitely had to be qualified to go there. But, you know, the timing was fine for my career. They had an opening. I was able to fill that billet. I'm sure that, you know, they want to -- the Naval War College is extremely prestigious. It would be a waste of an education if they let a billet go without being filled, and I

was eligible.

So, I got to go.

BOWERS HEALEY: And the classes, lieutenant commanders and commanders are all lieutenant commanders?

KOLAR: There's two levels of class. And you know, for clearer terminology, it's the junior class in the senior class. But yes, so the junior class is O-4s and O-5s and the senior classes O-6s.

BOWERS HEALEY: And that's a yearlong program?

KOLAR: It's ten months predominantly if you start in August and finish in June. But if you start either in December or March, then you're going to be there a whole year. But I started in the fall and completed in the spring.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you also received a master's degree.

KOLAR: From graduating from the Naval War College. I have so I have the master's degree in Adult Education from University of Rhode Island and then a master's degree in National Security and Strategic Studies from the Naval War College.

BOWERS HEALEY: And after you graduated

from there, where did you go?

KOLAR: So, let's take a break.

[Break in recording]

BOWERS HEALEY: This is the second session of the tape of an interview with Mary Kolar. Alright. And yeah, we were at Naval War College, the junior class. You mentioned that you got a master's degree from there, and I think I had asked where we're where you go from there. What was your next assignment?

KOLAR: I was just trying to think anything to highlight from being a student at the Naval War College. Again, to remain in shape. There were four stories, and it was a large class. I remember they were squeezing people in pretty tight and -- but my cube -- cubicle was on the fourth floor and I-I relished racing the elevator. And I you know, it's just interesting to me, again, watching some of the other people that kind of question if they were with the Navy standards

and it would help if you took the stairs instead of the elevator, because I-I could beat that elevator for sure. I remember I had a class, so it was three different sessions focuses. Before I forget, I'll say there were the three required courses that you took the three semesters. But they also at the time had electives and I got to take an elective in the Civil War. And I had read Battle Cry of Freedom, which is like a 500-page book, and was so thankful that I read the book because the Naval War College has a lot of reading. Some students have described it as it's only a lot of reading if you do it, but you have to do a lot of reading. So, to have already read the book and then be able to participate in the discussions, I just really enjoyed that class.

I'm trying to remember the topic of the other class, but I had one of the electives our professor was a Air Force colonel and his writing style still influences me. You know, just-just don't use a lot of words when one or two will do get to the point. That was really good from the Naval War College. Again, the people that it was everything you would expect. It's the topics, the research, your peers. One of the bad things was to know that the army, my army peers who were there were among the best. They have the Army War College, which their finest go to. But even -- it's supposed to be even more prestigious for the Army students to be able to go to

the Naval War College. But after I left the Naval War College and went to Naval Criminal Investigative Service, it was NIS at that time, Naval Investigative Service, when I got there because of Tailhook, which we can get into if you want. The name was changed to Naval Criminal Investigative Service. But I was able to go to what was then known as the Armed Forces Staff College, which is a joint college. And while I was there, a drawdown of the services began, and particularly in the Army. So, to know that officers who I had been a student with at the Naval War College and then that I was a student with at the Armed Forces Staff College, they were being sent home. The army needed to draw down. And they did it, in my mind, very painfully, to have some of their finest officers

served. What selective? I forget what stands for when -- because it's not the only time I had to deal with it.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, was that Selective Early Retirement, SER?

KOLAR: Thank you. Yeah, SER.

BOWERS HEALEY: Let me go back to the Naval War College. What was the composition of your class in terms of armed forces, perhaps foreign students?

KOLAR: Or so there is a specific foreign course, and that is extremely internationally well known. And again, it's very selective who goes there. Has a reputation and is indeed a fact that people who eventually become their equivalent of the Chief of Naval Operations go through that course. So from, you know, name a country, at least 33 different countries send their naval officers. And again, an officer who I worked with when I was responsible for recruiting region,

when I had five commanders report to me, one of those commanders ended up being the officer who was the liaison representing the US Navy, whatever, in that course. He was the one that took them all over the country while they were in their course. So that relationship continued as well.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. I am a little bit -- here are we in terms of kind of your timeline of your career. We were talking about the Naval War College '90 to '91. And then you went to the NIS, NCIS?

KOLAR: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where was that located?

KOLAR: Washington, DC. At the Navy Yard.

BOWERS HEALEY: So that was kind of your first move from Newport?

KOLAR: Correct. After six years.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, did you, again, select to go to there or were you selected to go there? Is that on your wish list?

KOLAR: So, my choice--

BOWERS HEALEY: Was it a surprise?

KOLAR: No, I needed to go to Washington, DC for my career.

I was offered either protocol officer at the Pentagon or commanding officer of staff enlisted in admin officer at what became NIS. I made the choice due -- because of my family to go to NIS. I was quite confident that I would be home more often, a more regular workday court Regular workday if I went to NCIS instead of the Pentagon. That was my concern. If I had went to the Pentagon as protocol officer, I would have been putting in many more hours than I ended up doing it at NIS.

BOWERS HEALEY: And whereas then I was located in DC?

KOLAR: At the Navy Yard. It's just -- it's Anacostia it's known as. It's across the water from Anacostia. It's just down the street from 8th and I. Been there?

BOWERS HEALEY: Been there. Yes.

KOLAR: Yeah. So, you can appreciate that. So, I-I could drive. So, I -- we lived in Falls Church. If I drove in, in a good day, it could take a half hour. But getting home, it could take an hour and a half or more. And the boys were in day care and Scott worked. So, I took the train. I'd take the train from Falls Church, get on the train. And that evolution was an hour. But you knew it was an hour on the way in and on the way back. So when I would get off, I had a choice of two different station -- or train stations. But if the one I would walk by 8th and I. And I would walk at lunchtime, so I walked by 8th and I so many times and I did make it to the sunset parade. Is that what they would call it?

BOWERS HEALEY: Yes.

KOLAR: Yeah. And I always felt very safe because, you know, oh my God, you walked in Washington, DC. Yes. I was never afraid. You know, the panhandlers

will stop every once in a while. But I always thought, I'll just run to 8th and I if I got a problem, I'm going there. So anyway, the Marine Corps.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you continue your running while you were in DC or not?

KOLAR: So, for my running, I ran in Dahlgren, you know. Anyway, my knees couldn't tolerate it so pretty much after Jacksonville, but I still walk because I just that's my fitness. When I was at Recruit Training Command, taking the physical fitness tests with the recruit division commanders, I'm the executive officer who walks for physical fitness and I was about to lap recruit division commander. And I said, "You better get going. You're about to be lapped by an old, gray-haired XO." So, he picked up his pace.

BOWERS HEALEY: What you do at NCIS?

KOLAR: So again, I was the commanding officer of staff enlisted. It's a really interesting place, though. There were people

who worked in the -- I'm trying to remember what the acronym stood for. But it was people who tracked intelligence reports from throughout the world. So, they -- I was responsible for them and the other admin support. When we were talking about the SERB earlier, the Navy did a SERB and I had a senior chief who was one of most wonderful people I worked with in my career, and it was -- so the colonel who I would report to instead of going directly to the admiral, he told the admiral that I, I took the SERB of the senior chief worse than the senior chief did, because I did because he was a really good senior chief, a really good senior enlisted person, good part of the team of leadership. And so, speaking of SERBs. And then another story is one of the petty officers at the time actually in his naval career

got a commission. And he's reached out to me this year on LinkedIn, you know, so reconnect with him. He just retired, you know, to have that. And-and him telling me that he still knows [??] Chief Hunter and another petty officer who we worked with. So, it was a fantastic tour except for, when I was there, if you've heard of Tailhook, it was the post first Gulf War. The Tailhook Association had their conference in Las Vegas, and it ended. But what came out afterwards, shortly afterwards, but not quick enough, was a Navy -- female Navy lieutenant reported to the admiral, who she was an aide to, that she had been sexually assaulted by fellow naval aviators. The

first people to do the -- the first command to do the investigation was the IG, the Navy IG, Inspector General. And they didn't bring charges against anybody. So senior Navy leadership said to NIS, you have to investigate this. So the challenge of trying to investigate alleged crimes for a scene that's been completely wiped out, you know, it was at a hotel. Nobody who was there at the time is still there. So anyway, the challenge of what became known as Tailhook, because it was the Tailhook Convention. So, my boss, again, it was NIS at the time, the admiral I worked for, who I reported to, we started the investigation. It went on for months. There weren't that many people who charges were actually brought against,

Paula Coughlin just -- it ended her career. She was treated just so ridiculously badly because she did report it.

And even post Tailhook, I literally -- a command later unrelated to anything I did when I was at NIS and unrelated to what this man who's speaking to me has done as a Supply Corps Officer. But Tailhook came up, you know, this is a command later. This is when I was in Scotia. But it's a closed door. It's just him and I. And he brings up Tailhook and says, you know, the mistake Paula Coughlin made was what happens on TAD stays on TAD. I mean, he's he was there for an inspection of my unit then, and I actually reported him to the IG. I was like, I can't believe that you're here to do an IG and you're disparaging an another investigation and thinking illegal activity should happen. But why it was

so significant at NIS is because Admiral McWilliams said -- spoke to the Assistant Secretary of the Navy. He was in the hallway of the Pentagon; he's speaking to her. And he -- which I believe he probably did day it. He said, "You couldn't tell the difference between naval officers and hookers." And so that's what made CNN and all the news. So, Admiral McWilliams was fired.

But I defended him. I wrote articles to The Washington Post, New York Times, and Navy Times, and I got published in all of them defending him. And I would to this day because he was disparaged and accused of not supporting women because of his statement. He had me as his admin officer. He had a female aide, which again, to this day is rare for male

admirals to have female aides. He encouraged her to stay in the Navy when she was thinking of getting out. I just had respect for him from that. There were other things that he did that maybe he should have been held accountable, but it wasn't this one. So, I thought that the results of Tailhook for way too many people were just -- it was so poorly handled in so many ways. So that's what happened while I was at what became NCIS. So, because the admiral who I reported to was relieved, Admiral Arthur, who was the Vice Chief of Naval Operations at the time. So, Admiral Arthur--

BOWERS HEALEY: As a result of Tailhook?

KOLAR: Yeah. He signed my fitness reports. I have a famous report signed by [M.??] Arthur and people know [M.??] Arthur, he's -- he was an incredible gentleman. And

I'm pretty sure he's still with us. I -- don't quote me on that. I think I might be wrong. But -- so I was a commanding officer, so when I was leaving and having my change of command, I asked Admiral Arthur to be the guest speaker. So [M.??] Arthur was a guest speaker at my change of command. Roy Nedrow became the civilian in charge of what became NCIS. And again, it's because of Tailhook that NIS became NCIS. So, Roy Nedrow was there. He came from Secret Service. He-he had been Secret Service for Henry Kissinger. So, again, an incredible gentleman. Back to physical fitness for a theme. The woman who was relieving me as commanding officer -- she was prior enlisted, she was a lieutenant commander at the time, and she said she couldn't wait to retire so she wouldn't have to worry about physical fitness. And I'm like, I do this for me. You know, I need to meet Navy standards, but I would like

to be healthy in my life. So that's why I try to maintain my physical fitness.

BOWERS HEALEY: Let me go back to Tailhook for just a bit. You said it was incredibly poorly handled and you personally know people who -- whose careers were destroyed as a result. Could it have been handled differently or could it have been handled better?

KOLAR: I think to this day -- I think the quote "Me too" movement is bringing more attention to the fact that behavior that's been tolerated shouldn't be. When that captain said to me, you know, in my following tour, "What happens on TADs, should stay on TAD." I said, man you still don't get it. Here was a naval officer who expected to be treated like a fellow naval officer, but she wasn't. She was treated. And then

they would say what she did the night before, what they saw her do. So they -- there was a room with -- I wasn't there just based on what I read -- there was a room with a dispenser that looked like a rhinoceros. And so its penis was the discharge for the alcoholic beverage, you know. So, she got some of the alcoholic beverage on. So that was somehow used as an excuse. Well, well, you know, she did that. It's like, okay, so that doesn't make it okay for you to sexually assault her. You know, why don't people understand that? And then you got to understand it's, you know, we won a war. Again, a war does not justify abusing another human being.

You know, we do it on purpose when we're defending ourselves or in an offensive where it is war when we use lethal means. But

this is your peer and it's supposed to be a celebration of one another's success, not a reason to diminish and to as far as sexually abuse your fellow shipmate. So that's -- yeah, Paula Coughlin's career ended. The -- one of the few people to actually be charged happened to be an African American. You know, that doesn't go unnoticed. How does that happen? That there's hundreds of naval aviators at this event and the one of the four or so that go to -- I think, pretty sure he actually did go to trial is a person of color. You know, it just -- it went on for months. It's a bad -- a terrible experience for everyone involved, but a bad picture of the US Navy.

That could have been avoided. I think, if you know, if you when you asked about alcohol earlier, too, it was definitely the overconsumption of alcohol. I attended more than one helicopter association event, you know, and so my helicopter friend had said that one of the Tailhook people had said, "Oh, you guys do that." Helicopter association is like, what? You know, I've been there. They never got that out of hand. Well, no, I certainly always felt safe at the equivalent of the helicopter association, the equivalent to the Tailhook.

BOWERS HEALEY: Anything else from your NCIS, NIS experience?

KOLAR: Which it-it was NCIS. Well, it became NCIS just before I left because of Tailhook. Great. You know, if I'm going to do a tour in DC, it was fantastic. My husband and I and our kids, we just -- we had a great time

being in DC. Again, back to seeing so much in that area.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what was your next duty station? What time period did you move there?

KOLAR: I think it's '94 to '96 or '98? What did I put?

BOWERS HEALEY: Scotia?

KOLAR: Scotia? Yes, Scotia, New York.

BOWERS HEALEY: January '94 to '96.

KOLAR: Upstate New York. Again, being from Wisconsin, I looked forward to being in the northern climes again. I got to be an officer in charge again. So, I had a commissary and exchange in Scotia, and we supported the Nuclear Power Training Unit. That was why we were there was to support the Navy Nuclear Power Training Unit located in Ballston Spa. And I had housing up in Saratoga Springs.

BOWERS HEALEY: Now Commissary

and Exchange, that's something you hadn't done before, did you get training for?

KOLAR: Its-its leadership. So, the, you know, Navy Exchange has their hierarchy as does the Defense Commissary. When I started, we had the officer in charge ceremony -- change of charge, I guess they called it -- [cough] in January. I remember when I was doing turnover with the person who I was relieving. It started snowing again this upstate New York. It's-it's already after three, and I said to her, I said, "You know, it's really snowing." I said, "Don't you think you should let people go?" "It'll be all right." You know, I'm like, I don't think so. But look, you know, she obviously wasn't as cautious as I was because the next six Thursdays, we had snowstorms. I just got -- it was hilarious to the point where it's snowing, it must be Thursday. We had one hundred and ten inches of snow that year. I was blown

away.

But what I learned from the commissary people is, yes, you know, they there was a communication line, but they reported to the Defense Commissary people. And I learned from them that they couldn't close until an hour after I said that it was close. So, I needed to take them into consideration. My concern in upstate New York was that people would come to the exchange or commissary, and it's like you need to stay home. So, it was -- it was dangerous. It was just absolutely ridiculous. I -- yeah, I have some experiences with the weather then, but thankfully, snow falls, which is beautiful. [Cough] Working with the submariners because it's nuclear power training, I did very well. [Cough] I always have with the - almost -- with the submariners and the nuclear power people.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did

this job require travel or not?

KOLAR: No, just between Scotia and Saratoga Springs stopping in Ballston Spa to see the commanding officer there. Make sure everything was okay. The -- I don't know if you've ever seen the show Connections? It hasn't been on in years, but it's just fascinating. It certainly is true. But -- so I had been at the Navy Yard, and when I would go for walks, I-I was amazed how close you could get to the Chief of Naval Operations' house that was on the Navy Yard. Okay. Well, then when I was at Scotia, there was a petty officer who had been in the Nuclear Power Training Program at Ballston Spa. And because he did so well in the course, he was asked to stay as an instructor. But then

something happened with him and the command. He didn't get something he expected to get. So, he then started to make complaints about what had happened to him at boot camp. And his wife was extremely compulsive as well. The bottom line is it took us a year of dealing with this couple, the petty officer and his wife, between NAU Scotia, my unit, the Nuclear Power Training Unit, who was his command and the entire, literally the entire Navy chain of command. This couple just would not let it go. You know, they-they alleged that he was heard at boot camp. Boot camp does an investigation and there's nothing there. But they keep making complaints to the point

an IG comes to Ballston Spa or to Scotia and Saratoga

Springs in this. IG says, you know, "You have nothing to worry about it." And I said, "I know, I don't." You know, we've done everything we needed to do. But nonetheless, they are the IG. And bottom line, they finally were able to separate this petty officer because of his erroneous allegations and it wasn't doing in the Navy what he was supposed to do.

So, they finally moved. I was like, oh gosh. It was, like I said, a year of our life of. But we knew that at one time he had gone to DC to try to see the Chief of Naval Operations and actually made it onto the front porch of the CNO's home, you know, the most senior admiral in the Navy and the senior enlisted person or the enlisted person answered the door, you know, screened him or whatever. And he didn't get in. But nonetheless, it had happened. Some time later Admiral Boorda,

who had -- I think he was the first prior enlisted admiral to make it to CNO. And he -- anyway the bottom line is Admiral Boorda killed himself. That was -- anyway -- it's awful. So, Admiral Boorda kills himself.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you meet Admiral Boorda?

KOLAR: I -- yes, I have -- had met him, but -- so, how many tours later? How many tours later? I'm at -- it was either when I was in recruiting in Pittsburgh or recruiting in -- I'm pretty sure was when I was recruiting in Pittsburgh. So, for more than four years later. The Navy -- the Navy recruiting IG inspector general sees me, and he says, "Yeah, it's-it's because of your guy that Admiral Boorda got a gun."

And I'm like, "What?" And he said that when Petty Officer Hills had gone and knocked on CNO's door, that's when he decided to buy a gun.

BOWERS HEALEY: Admiral Boorda wasn't at the Navy Yard at that time, was he?

KOLAR: No, he wasn't there. But here is a -- according to this guy, you know, the IG for Navy recruiting who had been in DC at the time he said the reason Admiral Boorda bought a gun, that he ends up killing himself with was because Petty Officer Hills ended up on his doorstep. So, he bought for security. So that in -- anyway -- so -- consequences of decisions.

BOWERS HEALEY: Other than your yearlong endeavor with the petty officer with complaints. What

else happened at Scotia?

KOLAR: Yes, thank you. Scotia was fantastic. My husband described it as I was a big fish in a little pond because it was just absolutely wonderful place. I was the officer in charge. I had a facility that had 11 tenants, you know, including the recruiting region. I ended up -- that was the -- my career path ended up being the commanding officer of a recruiting region. So, I had at the time -- and in my first tour of Navy recruiting the district I had reported to that commanding officer that still had their headquarters in Scotia, having the commissary and exchange, you know, learning from other people's decisions, all that snow. So, I learned that -- because we are right next to the Defense Logistics Agency -- that had acres and -- but we use the same gate, but we paid

somebody else to plow. And some way I asked a question. I said, "How come we don't just use the defense?" One of my predecessors, for whatever reason, decided she didn't like it. She -- and I said, damn that was money. And now we're spending our own money. When we used to get it done free by the defense people. So, there was that.

I -- oh -- one of the -- you know, we had the hills, but we also had an employee, her name was Ginger. When I first met her, she worked -- she was our communications person, so she worked in a room by herself. Didn't interact with the public a lot. So, she'd come to work in a sweater and a pair of jeans, whatever. But she had a picture of her then boyfriend on her desk. And I had a physical reaction to that picture, just like -- I need to go the other way. Just there was just something about that person. Well,

Ginger ended up working at our housing, and that's -- so when the sailors and their families would come to go to the Nuclear Power Training Unit. They could live at Saratoga Springs, the housing I was responsible for. So, Ginger ends up working in the office to help these families check in and so forth. So, she was very meticulous about her appearance. She always dressed extremely nice, and she told the story how -- we had some command thing where someone brought up the subject of ghosts. She said where she might be the man then who became her husband. She said, "Yeah, my husband's father haunts the house." She said -- and she literally says, "One morning I was putting on my makeup and he was over my shoulder, and I grabbed my makeup bag and ran outside." You know, so I just thought, wow, of the things to grab when you're afraid is your makeup bag. So, we knew and another woman who was a lifetime

friend from that command, we knew that her then boyfriend and then when he became her husband that he was beating her, she came to work with her hand all bandaged up and said she fell or something. Well, I think Betsy, her friend, found out, you know, I'm pretty sure that-that man who became her husband, had broken her hand.

But then it was summer, and Ginger had gone, she was going to become a Chief [Warrant??] Officer. She had been Chief [Warrant??] Officer. She's in the Guard, Reserve, and she was at Tobyhanna, and she had been out all day with a fellow soldier. They did have drinks and she went back to her barracks, and she went to bed. And she wakes up and this is her story and her husband

-- she told the story that her husband would have sex with her while she was asleep. So, when she wakes up in the barracks thinking that her husband is having sex with her, she realizes it's this other fellow soldier. So, she alerts the authorities, you know, and says that he raped her. So, the CID person had spoken to her and she went to a mental health professional, an army mental health professional as well. So, we knew that this would happen, that ginger stays at Tobyhanna because of this alleged rape that's being investigated by CID and the mental health. The next I hear is that Ginger's dead. That her husband refused to come get her. He alleges that

it was consensual. She comes home. I can't remember how she did get home, but she-she couldn't even been like five feet. But she's alleged to have put a weapon between her legs, and she killed herself. And so in Rensselaer, New York, it's accepted that she did that. I go to work, and I call the CID Officer in Tobyhanna and I say, "I'm calling you because Ginger killed himself." And he's silent. And then he says, "No, she didn't." And he talked to me, I swear it was hour or more, because he's not believing that Ginger killed herself. Then I call the mental health person, same reaction. No. So to this day, we still believe Ginger didn't kill herself.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was the investigation -- was there an investigation? Was it reopened?

KOLAR: Oh, I don't -- I don't think the Army ever did anything, and the police never did. They just -- no, there's a domestic dispute. So, we go to the viewing and Ginger's there in jeans, culottes, outfit, and we're like, "What? Why did you put her in?" And I just the way she looked. And then I had a neighbor that happened to do the preparation of bodies. And, you know, I was explaining to her, you know, that her it looked to me like her hand was bruised. And she said, "You can't hide it. It's very difficult to hide the bruises." I said, I assume it was a wig. So, and it's why the professionals didn't believe it. They didn't believe -- because it is pretty rare for a woman one to kill herself with a weapon and that she would have damaged

her appearance the way she's alleged to have done it. So that's why we still don't believe it. And then -- so the disrespect that was shown by her husband and actually her brother too. At the -- both the viewing and then at the funeral, it was just so much of disrespect to this woman [cough].

So, we actually had our own memorial service for her. I brought in a counselor to speak with us because we're all we're all grieving. We all know her. [Cough] To go through that in the stages of grief. But -- yeah, we just found out that she had been forced to get married, like when she was 14 by her parents. So, abuse and disrespect have been, sadly, too much of her life. So that happened in Scotia, too. It's just, you

know, for me, when this interview -- I was like, really? What do I want to take away from? I was like, I-I would do a normal career again in art if they said today, I could go back, and I would go back in. So, I -- but you can't help but be impacted by the relationships and the tragedies and you know as well as the good things. [Cough] So Scotia, you know, so the detailer would call up and say, "Hey, when people call asking about a job, don't tell them about the weather." And I was like, "What?" You know, I said "I'd take the weather in upstate New York, over Florida in a day." But it was it was it was a good tour and good people. Really good people. You know, I think that's why Ginger was such a impact on us, because it was -- it was family.

BOWERS HEALEY: And

then we went to MEPS. And I'm always asking, did you choose it? Did it choose you? Was it a career necessity?

KOLAR: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So that's the first time that we got close to home was being station in north Chicago. It's military entrance processing command, so it was close to home. Plus, it was extremely good for my career. I was the deputy commander at Military Entrance Processing Command. We were responsible for 33 MEPS, military-military entrance processing stations located east of the Mississippi, including Puerto Rico. We lived in Libertyville. The boys' school was in-between home and the office. Again, we got family like we never had before.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where's

your husband from?

KOLAR: He's originally -- well he would say, outside of Philadelphia, Springfield, Pennsylvania. So -- but he's following me. He's very content to follow me. The only time -- the worst time he had finding a job was upstate New York. There was a recession at the time, and it took six or nine months to get a job, but it was with MetLife. And then so when I transferred, he was able to transfer with MetLife. So that-that was a good thing. He's in software engineer, if you will. So he -- you know, there would be -- depending on the economy, but he was usually able to find a job. Anyway, MEPS was great. I did get to travel for your question with 33 MEPS. I am trying to think if I made it to them all. But if I didn't make it to them all, I made it too nearly.

And so was working with the Army. I didn't have this memory because of this interview, I don't think. Something made me today think about gossip and women. When the stereotype that women gossip -- it was at MEPCOM -- no, definitely men are just as bad at gossiping. Oh, I know, I was thinking about a story of people meeting at a grocery store to have a conversation. It's in a book I'm reading right now, and it -- it's funny, I was just reading about veterans at an event, but anyway, the colonel that I worked for, he traveled much more than I did. I was the deputy commander, so I was usually running stuff back at the--

BOWERS HEALEY: Is the Colonel or excuse me, is the army in charge of the MEPS or how is the command structure there?

KOLAR: The total MEPCOM, military interests processing command -- we were eastern sector -- so there was Eastern sector and Western sector. That -- the eastern sector was

army. And I -- pretty sure the Western sector was Navy billet. And then the MEPCOM, so those two sectors reported a MEPCOM. The MEPCOM commander would rotate through the services. I've got a story for you later on that one. But -- so coincidentally, I reported to an Army colonel. The MEPCOM commander at the time was Army colonel, and the Deputy of MEPCOM was an Army colonel, so they -- it was all the same service. But it was just funny that the Colonel who I reported to when he would return from a trip, he'd look at me and say, "I got to go up and talk to the-the deputy to get all the gossip." And he'd come back and tell me, part of it, at least some of it I would already know because I'm there. But anyway, it was just-just highlighted

that. But what also happened with that, the Army colonel who was MEPCOM, we would have the command meetings in the Navy we would call them a [war??] room meeting or officer call or whatever, but whatever we would call it at MEPCOM. And so there would be senior military officers and senior civilians, and we would sit there waiting for the MEPCOM colonel to show up. And it was actually his deputy that sat there with a piece of paper one day and figured out the pay grades of the people there and how much they got paid and how much it was costing us to just sit there and wait for the colonel. Yeah. And that colonel ended up -- to me, it's relevant to what we're going through as a country right now. I think people tolerate a lot from leadership until it just reaches a certain point and then they're like, "No, this

can't be." And so, with this colonel, there were -- there were enough things. The fraud, waste, and abuse, you know, sitting there and figuring out just sitting here waiting for him. We're just wasting so much time and money.

But he got caught lying about his PT tests. He lied about his weight, and he lied about his results. And somebody saw that he had put that managed to get that on his whatever the Army calls their fitness report OCR something like that? Oh, your Marine, sorry. I had to do all of them when I was at MEPCOM. Yeah, I think usually the Marines would just do them themselves, you know, take responsibility. Well, that's it. Because I literally had an Air Force colonel argue with me a white out on a fitness report. And I'm like, he said, "How would you feel?" And I said, "You wouldn't be able to tell because we send it in." I think it was microfiche or whatever at the time. But the Air Force colonel, I remember that

was at MEPCOM, you couldn't have any white space because, you know, so you literally figured out your words to fit in that space. So that would I like -- I haven't used the term white space since the Air Force. I'm trying to remember some of the quirks of the Marines. But I-I enjoyed, you know -- back to the colonel, Marine colonel that I worked with when I was at NCIS. Oh, and at NIS, NCIS was -- the lawyer was fantastic -- talk about lawyers, oh, man, he was good. Again, because we were living through that Tailhook, all of us. Yeah, it was good. Good NIS in it with -- trying to think were there other Marines too, besides the colonel who I reported to and the JAG? Anyway, MEPCOM. Travel, working with all the services, and then -- and that's the [seeing??] Leadership because when I talk about the--

BOWERS HEALEY: How

much, if any, were you responsible for the-the statistics? Making quota? Or is that not?

KOLAR: At MEPS? None. Well, that's just it. So then for my naval career that to me -- that did contribute to my success the last ten years because I ended up doing and including multiple tours, recruiting, MEPS, and recruit training. So, I had the triad, I had experience with the triad and -- of accessions, getting people into the Navy.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: To this day, you know, here in this office or when I was a condo association president, when people tell you a problem but it's months or you know more than 30 days after it happened so when we would have our I forget what we call them, but we would have conferences

with the recruiting commands, you know, MEPCOM would sponsor the twice a year meeting with all the recruiting commands, and then a recruiting commanding officer would say, "Hey," you know, "Sergeant so-and-so in Knoxville did this." And I'm like, "Oh my God, you know, why didn't you tell me on that day it happened?" Like, you know, look how difficult it is to do something when it's 3 or more months later. [Jeeze??], thanks people. Deal with an issue now, so -- yeah, just again. But it was fantastic from the standpoint of remember another Army colonel who is lieutenant colonel but just loved him and his wife were just is fantastic. Try to remember which MEPS he had, but the different MEPS. And there was a MEPS commander who I described as one of our best and then ended up when -- anyway I'll come to that later, remind me that when we talk about it, that when I'm at Naval Service Training Commands.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay.

KOLAR: Well, I can tell you. I'll just

go ahead. So, what happened is when this person was a commanding officer of a MEPS, I believed to be one of the best. We never had any reports of any issues. And then -- I can't remember what tours he might have had in between. But when I was Chief of Staff at Naval Service Training Command, I had been previously the executive officer of Recruit Training Command and the commanding officer of Recruit Training Command when I was at Naval Service Training Command was looking for a new XO, and I had recommended this person who I'd known from when I was at MEPCOM. Well, when he went to a recruiting command, power went to his head and it's like, why didn't -- it didn't happen when he was at MEPS, but it happened terribly. When he went to a recruiting command, he got -- ended up getting relieved. And so, the commanding officer told him, you recommended that guy. I'm like, "Yeah, I did." You

know, because it's just, you know, what happened? What -- how did power go to his head so much at recruiter command?

BOWERS HEALEY: Do you think it had to do with making quota or was that not a factor?

KOLAR: No, because it was stuff like putting a flag on his car. You know, I'm the commanding officer. Well, congratulations. You know, you're a captain just like everybody else. And you know, you're not an admiral. You don't get a flag on your car. He did something to the chief recruiter. The senior enlisted -- it just -- I -- yeah, he ended up getting relieved. There were just a number of things that he did. So -- yeah, I think indirectly maybe when I think of -- cause when I was in recruiting and I had a region, there was a woman that I had worked with when we were both at boot camp, at Recruiting Command. And then, you know, now I'm a Commodore and responsible for five districts and she's executive officer at one.

Same thing. Her commanding officer I had worked with in the past, I thought she was fine, but she did some inappropriate, illegal things and the XO had some part of it. So, her career ended as well. But I had reached out to her and said, "You know, if I can help, if I can get you a job, you let me know." And she was very appreciative. Right here where you're sitting right now, there's a mass-- a retired master chief. I didn't know this when I took -- gotten this position when I was being considered for the position. And he found out he had actually written an email endorsing my appointment to this position. And so, in the last couple of months, he came here, and we were just talking, and he still knows this woman who I supported. And so he had heard that I was willing to, you know, again, being appreciative because like, yeah, this was a good person but got sucked

into, you know, when the commanding officer screws up, it can take a lot of people down with you when that happens. So, get back--.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Anything else about MEPS? Did you want to talk about?

KOLAR: The travel, the people, all the different services. Yeah, just learning so much. Eastern Sector. It's good.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay and from MEPS, you went to Navy recruiting districts in Pittsburgh. Was your selection for that billet in any way tied to having been at MEPS?

KOLAR: Yes, definitely. So, there were people that knew me from before MEPS and then my performance at MEPCOM. So, to be chosen for that command is a very significant career milestone. Very competitive. And yes, so I would say was my previous experience and including my leadership

at MEPCOM Eastern Sector that influenced my decision for command of a recruiting district. So, I had Navy recruiting district, Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh. I originally was--.

BOWERS HEALEY: What was your rank at that time?

KOLAR: Commander.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: I -- O-5 I was originally supposed to go to Portland. Yeah, Portland. So you're supposed to go executive officer of a recruiting district and then do that, like, for 18 months, and then you become the commanding officer. Something that happened in Pittsburgh -- anyway, so I was supposed to go to Portland. I had gone out and started to scope out real estate for my family to move out there, had talked to the person who would -- he was like, so at the time, who would become commanding officer would be my commanding officer. And then I get a phone call, you know, I said, I'm supposed to go to Portland. "Hey, can you go to either Pittsburgh

or Columbus?" And so I'm like -- I hadn't -- I don't think I've been to either. I'm quite certain I hadn't been either. For whatever reason, I picked--picked Pittsburgh. I think if I'd seen the two of them, I might have picked Columbus, Ohio. But anyway, ended up in Pittsburgh. Same thing with transportation. In Pittsburgh, we learned there's bridges and tunnels. So, my office was downtown Pittsburgh. Scott was able to get a job downtown Pittsburgh. We lived Upper St. Clair was where we lived, but we would drive to the train station because it would -- I think it was -- definitely, again, an hour or less evolution to take the train to go downtown Pittsburgh, where if you drove -- it was awful.

Scott likes to tell the story of a snowstorm -- he left about an hour earlier than the end of the workday, took the train,

got home, no problem. Whereas people who stayed and got on the road just sat there for hours and hours. So public transportation is well worth it -- downtown Pittsburgh but I traveled a lot. So, my district was all of Pennsylvania except for Philadelphia, and I had a little bit of Ohio, West Virginia, and Maryland. So, I absolutely loved it. My brother has lived in Pennsylvania for decades, and the first time I had ever been to Pennsylvania was I can see there's-there's a lot of similarity. We don't have the mountains that Pennsylvania has, but rural and farmland. And it's just absolutely beautiful. So, traveling to visit recruiters at the recruiting stations was wonderful. For the family, that's where I started because I like to cook, but started teaching the boys how to cook and Scott and I would literally make menus for the entire month. And on Saturdays we'd go

to the commissary that was this little, tiny thing. At some, I think it was an army facility. Anyway, it was -- it was an adventure just going to that commissary. Buying the food needed for -- you know -- and making the -- and letting the family know, "Okay, this is what you need to make." To this day. So, our oldest -- it didn't stick so much, but he does like to cook. But our youngest is the better because he just does it so much more and is really good at it. And right now, he's living with us. So, it's wonderful that -- come home the other night. Oh, it's so nice to have somebody else make dinner for you. But I just marvel at the fact that I did that. My discipline of making those menus and grocery lists. And that's how we survived that tour of organizing the family, I would say.

So, it was recruiting during a time that was very difficult. So, to get a recruiting

badge, it's a gold wreath around your recruiting badge, you have to make goal 3 months in a row. During my time at Pittsburgh, we never did. And so, you know, that was significant. But I was unwilling to compromise my standards. I literally did have mission days. That's the day you have to have your goal completed for the month where I have recruiters saying, "But ma'am, you can take this person." You know, I remember the one, "It wasn't a real gun." And it's like, just even to have -- you know, I eventually see the record and everything and it's like, "No." You know, don't-don't do that. If-if we're going to make goal, we're going to make goal on actual numbers and -- so I'm sure that and the Commodore and her deputy, you know. "Oh, you got to do something. You're not

making goals, so you have to be punished." The -- their senior enlisted had been in my office talking to me, telling me how great I was doing, and I assumed it was because of the integrity.

You know, again, I had nothing but positive feedback from the senior enlisted recruiters for the Commodore, you know, the captain who I was reporting to. But he gives me an envelope and he leaves and I open his envelope and it's a letter of reprimand. And I'm like, "What?" You know, why am I getting a letter -- I know I'm getting -- because I haven't made goal. And so, I called Master Chief, he gave me a -- and he said, "Ma'am, I didn't know." And I believe him. He did not know. So then when the chief of staff comes, her deputy comes, you know, for the Commodore, I said, "You gave me a letter of reprimand." "Yes." I said, "Do you intend on firing me?" "No. You're one of our best." That was literally his words, "No, you're one of our best." And I said, "Then don't

give me a letter of reprimand," because I just -- so being on recruiting command, if you understand what it is, it's like, wow, you know, you're not doing this, so you get that. No, I think you need to have a conversation. The economy was really good. So that was -- so the economy was really good. So, everybody was having a tough time recruiting. But I must say, my Marine counterpart -- artillery -- I think he was artillery. Just this fantastic person. He was the first Marine in that district in that area to make goal. He said he literally nearly killed themselves working to make goal. He told me the story that he had a recruiter that wasn't perform the way he expected them to call him in on Saturday morning. The Marine in charge, his back was bothering him so bad, he said his senior enlisted had a prop him up to be able to have a conversation with this Marine recruiter. He's telling me this story and what

he did. And I'm like, "Oh, my God. But you made goal." You know what? And he did so bless him. Hey, I'll never forget that. That that Marine did it because the Marines will fire you. They -- I just saw so many Marine recruiters get fired, and it's like. But he didn't. He made it. He made goal and damn his back. Whatever.

BOWERS HEALEY: So that wasn't necessarily policy in the Navy, if you enlisted recruiters did not make goal?

KOLAR: It's--.

BOWERS HEALEY: Or I shouldn't say even didn't make gold but didn't come close to making goal where they're--.

KOLAR: You know so having done the triad that's in -- and then work with people, particularly war fighters who are now in charge of recruiting or what -- or-or-or that the Navy needs to make their goals, you should be able to do this. You should be able to do that. And it's like, come experience this. The conventional wisdom

is that you have to talk to a hundred people and maybe one of them will get to boot camp. So to know. And then so you have the -- he was a TM, torpedoman. So, I had in Pittsburgh this senior chief, nicest guy. He was a torpedoman. He's not a recruiter. He's a torpedoman. He's a person, you know, that deals with the torpedoes and a submarine. But it's shore duty, and that's an option. Go to -- go on recruiting duty. How you become the rate that's recruiting is you do so well in recruiting you asked to become a professional recruiter and then the rest of your tours are recruiting. You know, and the chief recruiter is our recruiting experts. But this senior enlisted person is a TM and I forget what job he had when I got there to Pittsburgh, but the chief recruiter has told me the story. Yeah, he had been at a station where they made goal

and you know, he's a hard charger. He's doing really well. So, oh, well, you did really well at this town that must have had the propensity of people to join the military. And then he went -- was sent to one that was harder, and he didn't make goal. And he was such a professional that had always achieved his goals. I-I believe I recall that he had a nervous breakdown.

So, I have such sympathy for these people that are, you know, my career survived not making goal three months in a row. But I probably -- because I had enough service reputation and the integrity and documentation of -- I wasn't going to compromise standards -- that I was still able to advance. But to take -- that's what I mentioned earlier about a recruiting tour were recruiters, whether they were in the recruiting force or were going to go back to the fleet

in their job, to have something negative when recruiting is hard. It's not the rate you trained for it. We don't -- we don't go out and recruit people to be recruiters and, you know, all the services. And I know the Army did it. I don't think the Marine Corps did it. They were smart enough. They did try doing civilians to have recruiters. Well, they got paid, you know, so they would find ways to still get paid even though they didn't make goal or there would be fraud, waste, and abuse. I was like, "Nope." So this -- I have such incredible respect for the recruiters that hang in there. When you have that pressure. I-I just met a marine recruiter the other day. I just talked to him again. Anyway, recruiting. Did that answer your question?

BOWERS HEALEY: It did. Many of the challenges, while you were at the recruiting station, did you also -- did you and your unit get feedback as to how many

people -- recruits made it through boot camp and made it to their -- through their first training, or didn't you?

KOLAR: At the time, I don't think there was as much. I don't know if the Navy's doing it now. This Marine recruiter I was just talking to, and she literally just had a recruit that just came back. So, it wasn't consistent that somebody could come back where the Marine recruiter I'm talking to said they come back, they go to Parris Island or wherever, and they stop in, "Hey, I made it," and then they go on.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, I guess I'm not asking about that, but this notion perhaps of just getting them shipped out. "Okay, I made my goal." Do you make your goal by getting them shipped out or do you make your goal when you know that they've actually completed recruit training?

KOLAR: Ship out -- arrive at camp?

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: You've -- yeah. When-when they get on the bus to leave. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: That's the one. I'm just trying to--.

BOWERS HEALEY: I know I said I wouldn't ask leading questions, but--

KOLAR: Go ahead.

BOWERS HEALEY: The United States Marine Corps does that. They used which used to be ship out, and then they changed to not sufficient to just ship out. You have to make it through boot camp.

KOLAR: Good.

BOWERS HEALEY: And the notion why is-is that would stop some of the illegalities.

KOLAR: It's illegal. It's you know, again, to having so many conversations recently because I'm, you know, to talk to a recruiter and explain to her, "Hey, I know what you're going through and I have so much respect for what you're doing." And "Maintain your integrity" because -- so the to tell the story, then make the transition. So, then I went to become the executive officer at the Navy's only boot camp. And when I get there concurrently,

my peers in Navy recruiting who had anticipated, you know, people who knew her and I'm sure she herself, it's expected to make captain an admiral and, you know, be the next whatever. Well, what happened was supposed to happen when there's a change of command at a recruiting district is there's an audit. There's the DEP audit, an audit of who's in the-the Delayed Entry Program. And so they did it at this -- my peer's recruiting district and discovered -- they'll call them [ghost??] steppers. You know so these are people that are on the books said, oh yeah, you may go but people know those people are never going to make it to boot camp. And the person who I relieved as XO, who had been in recruiting before, she literally says to me, "Wouldn't you have done that?" I said, "No." And I didn't, you know, and

then to have that person's career over. So really, you're cooking the books. You're making false allegation and false statements that you're making goal. You know, to me, getting that badge for making goal three times and that's it. It-it diminishes those who do it honestly and with integrity and make goal three months in a row. So, disappointed that the person who did it and then to have the person who I'm relieving at RTC say, "Wouldn't you do it?" No. And I didn't. And so, to me, I have maintained my service reputation. Probably why I'm here today. One of the reasons I'm in this position.

BOWERS HEALEY: So on to the Recruit Training Command,

KOLAR: Which was fantastic. So, I don't have it here.

BOWERS HEALEY: It was Great Lakes, right?

KOLAR: So, the Navy's only boot camp retreat -- recruit Training Command, Great Lakes. I

have said it and it's now on the banners for the I Am Not Invisible, where it says that the most rewarding tour of my Navy career was being the executive officer at boot camp. At the time, we had 50,000 recruits become sailors in one year. That was probably the largest classes that -- it started going down after that. But boot camp -- the commanding officer I had when I got there had been Army in Vietnam and the helicopters and then, you know, became a naval aviator. Captain Gantt, a tall African American gentleman, was just incredible and just had such presence. Just phenomenal to work with. The recruit division commanders, the expectation

of how we expected them to lead recruits and getting to go to graduation every week. So, when I got there, we actually had graduation twice a week. We would do it in the summer because of the volume. We would have graduation on Thursday nights and Friday nights. We adapted and figured out how to just do it once a week because it just took so much effort to put on graduation. Didn't know these things are going to be so emotional -- so the most -- anyway.

On September 11th, the of 2001, Captain Gantt was in Washington, DC, at the Pentagon. So, I was acting commanding officer, and we had a staff meeting. And Eric [Garalnik??] came in and interrupted and said, "Ma'am, there's

the plane flying into the tower. Because it was the first one first." And then, you know, I was like, "No way." So anyway, obviously it was. Then -- so also leading up to that week the admiral who had been Naval Service Training Command. I'm trying to think we didn't call it --it was some other name at that time. But the admiral who we reported to as Navy's only boot camp was right there across the railroad tracks -- the railroad tracks where that separate boot camp, Navy boot camp recruit training command from all the other commands that are at Great Lakes. So the admiral who had been there was alleged of misusing money, and he was also very abusive. So, when I talked earlier about people would tolerate a lot. But I think

because of his abusive behavior, people finally started calling the IG and reporting his-his misuse of funds. I was remembering being the season that he spent $30,000 on holiday lights so that people would see these lights as they drove to his quarters. And boot camp at the time, we -- our buildings were some sorry shape up the hall that we would have the graduation ceremonies and literally the ceiling was falling in. And as executive officer, I would have other officers say to me, "Aren't you embarrassed?" It was like, "Yeah, I'm terribly embarrassed that my roof is falling in. You know, I could use some money to pay for this renovation." Afterwards -- not too many years -- within a year or so, boot camp did. We ended up getting a lot of money put into the Navy's boot camps to compete with college

campuses. I mean, it's-it's incredible how much that campus-campus base command changed when we did put some money into it. But at the time, when I'm there, prior to December 11, 2001, the admiral ended up getting fired on the Friday before. So that admiral leaves. The new admiral comes from the reserves. You know, he's told, hey, you need to go be the commander at Great Lakes. His wife was a flight attendant and she -- he was talking to her when she was at one of the World Trade Center towers and had her hand on the door when he was talking to her. And she was about to go in when the plane hit. So, he was not in good shape for a number of hours. And obviously, there are long-term consequences. Thankfully, they're alive. His wife was alive. But -- so the admiral that we're now reporting to -- you

know, so I'm giving him a tour and that week and because I'm still the commanding officer waiting for Captain Gantt to get back. But we're at the threat condition, most serious condition, not allowing people to come. And we debated whether or not we were going to have graduation. Well, we ended up having graduation. It was, you know, one of the best.

But on that Monday of that week, I would go down quite frequently to the town nearby. There was this family that had fresh produce, and so if I could rush out at lunchtime and go down and buy some fresh produce, including flowers. So, on that Monday of that week, I had purchased some gladiolus. And so all week long, with all the tragedy, I saw those flowers. I was able

to go home. I had debated staying on base, but I didn't have quarters on base, so I was able to go home. But I was never really comfortable going home or leaving the base. But anyway, on Thursday or Friday, on Friday we were planning a memorial service and at the chapel and I had gone down -- Orietta was this grandma-like Italian that was at the market. And I told her, I said how wonderful it was to have the flowers that I had bought on Monday during that tragic week. And I said, "We're going to have a memorial service. I'm getting some flowers." She hands me bushels -- it seemed like those red gladiolus to put on the altar of for that service. So that week. So it was, you know. You know, [thank God Captain??] Gantt

got back okay. But seeing that week, just how much everyone came together, we, you know, we had the threat not knowing, you know, didn't have the benefit of hindsight, you know, what we were going through. But that was a really good command.

BOWERS HEALEY: I do want to circle back to your recruiting time. Obviously, across the board challenges, but can you talk to what are some of the main disqualifiers of people walk through your door or maybe even don't get to your door?

KOLAR: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: As to why young folks are not qualified? In addition to the economy being good at that time.

KOLAR: It's gotten, I'm sure, even more concerning. The again, conventional wisdom is that 70% of the recruiting age people in the United States are already physically disqualified. They either can't meet the

physical requirements of the what you need to be able to do with pushups, sit ups, and the run and or and pretty much or with the weight that the obesity epidemic. Just overweight.

BOWERS HEALEY: And that's for both men and women?

KOLAR: Oh yeah. It's the American population. So, you already have that challenge. We still and understandably so, have regulations against drug use including marijuana. You know, there was an issue when I was being recruited. It was an issue in recruiting and remains an issue. So drug use, the services have -- it used to be you couldn't have taken Ritalin at all. Ritalin and other like substances. I understand there's been some relax of that about how long ago it was.

So that those types of medication can be -- so it again and then the propensity to join the -- so when I had recruiting region south which is after RTC. The propensity to join the service is greater in the southern states, but the academic standards haven't been as high. So, it's difficult, more difficult to find people who can pass the ASVAB. And if you're familiar with the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery, you know, it's again, it's what skills and knowledge you have that are conducive to military service. It's not an IQ test. You know, for example, just my son got a 99. That's a highest score you can get to have people that couldn't get a 32. And then to know that there are services that have given waivers, even on

the ASVAB to a certain point, that's-that's really scary if you can't get a 32 on the ASVAB.

BOWERS HEALEY: High school diploma standards while you were at your first recruiting station?

KOLAR: I mean, I doubt that we ever gave a waiver. A GED, if you got your GED or another -- thank you for actually, you know, you ask that question. So Pittsburgh -- so state laws for home school. Pittsburgh had enough regulation that if you got a certificate of completion of a home school program in Pennsylvania, you knew it was -- that they had actually gotten an education, whereas some other states it was a little more lenient. Whatever. You couldn't guarantee somebody, even though they had a certificate that they had completed a home school education, that they were actually

going to have the equivalent of a high school diploma. And then I think it was Illinois where there was a scam. The recruiters were making certificates that didn't actually exist. So, there's that too.

BOWERS HEALEY: High school certificates?

KOLAR: For home school.

BOWERS HEALEY: Home schooling?

KOLAR: Because it was just too easy. Got it off the Internet, made a certificate.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, when you were at the Navy recruiting station yourself as a Commodore and that was 2003 to 2004, what was your area at that time?

KOLAR: So, I had 15 states. I had more slowly southeast US, including Puerto Rico, but I also had Michigan, including UP.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you were there for two years?

KOLAR: Actually, I was there for basically a year. I was supposed to be there two

years. But the admiral who I had worked with at -- when I left Great Lakes, Admiral Rondeau was still there, and she asked me to come back to be her Chief of Staff at Naval Service Training Command. So, I did not spend the complete two years.

BOWERS HEALEY: How did you like your tour or what were some of the experiences that you had where you were on naval recruiting region South?

KOLAR: So, in contrast, the economy wasn't as good. So, when I would talk about having recruited in the late nineties and recruiters were doing, oh, you know, just feel like I had survived something much more arduous than recruiting in a time when the economy is good. So, we were making our goals. I think I made, you know, the region made its goal within the first few months I was there. So, I did get -- but thank you for asking that because before my change of command, we met with the admiral who we all reported to, all of us who had a region.

And one of my peers sees my shirt with the badge, which, because it didn't have a gold wreath, was called a rookie cookie. And she says, how-how do you get to be? How are you here with a rookie cookie? And I said, well, "I made captain and tomorrow I'm going to be a Commodore. So, I guess I did something right." And I was so marvel at how can you be here? Yeah, you can make it to a second tour in recruiting without having made recruiting goals three months in a row. Again, I attribute it to my-my leadership.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you were in Macon, Georgia, at that time.

KOLAR: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: Family go with you?

KOLAR: No, so because I knew that I would be traveling all the time. The boys were in school here -- at the time, Illinois Scott had a good job. We had a wonderful home. It's like, just stay here.

It would have been extremely disruptive. I had doubts of what kind of job Scott would have got. He probably would have had to work in Atlanta. So that would have been commuting. The status of the schools probably would have to go to private school just to get the education that I would want for my kids. And I actually -- so within the first ten months, I put 60,000 miles with just Delta, I think. So that's how much I was -- I was traveling. I said my office could have been at the airport in Atlanta because that's that was the job. Going and going and visit.

So, I'll tell you a recruiting story that happened within weeks. I had -- even before I actually got to the command, I was given a heads up that there was an issue with the person, one of the commanding officers when he had been

a -- the XO, because he fleeted up to become the commanding officer. When he had been the XO at his recruiting district, I guess he felt he was disciplining a recruiter. So, he had made this person drive how many miles, a long distance, wherever her station was in Michigan, and then to the headquarters in Detroit. And he brought her into his office, and he yelled at her to the point she ended up in the corner in the fetal position. And then when she left there, she was actually admitted to the psych ward at Great Lakes. Navy recruiting before I became Commodore, had just relieved another commanding officer for some reason. So, they didn't want to have to relieve another one. So, relieving him was not an option. So, I traveled with him all day. Seemed like a nice gentleman. He's, you know -- so I traveled with them. We get to where

the hotel we're going to be spending the night. I found a room where I could just talk to him one on one. And I said, "You are an aviator." He's really well-built. He was a full commander. He was executive officer. I said, "You could have talked to her just like this and scared the bejebes out of her." And I gave him a letter of reprimand.

But that, to me, when people in leadership positions, when they go so far -- and I say, why? Why do you do that? You have so much power by -- why we're here -- this office. I have -- I don't need to be screaming at someone to -- so and I've described Navy recruiting to you that you were already under pressure. You've had a good Navy career. You wouldn't be a Navy recruiting. And now to have XO

treat you so badly that it just pushes you over the edge. So I -- at the same time, we actually ensured -- I was concerned. If you're treating someone like that, how are you treating your spouse? He assured us it was fine, and we did send him to anger management. Didn't relieve him. But anyway.

BOWERS HEALEY: Complete his tour?

KOLAR: He completed his tour, yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Anything else from your Southern experience?

KOLAR: So. It's -- so tattoos became a ridiculous part of my follow-on tour because when I was, you know -- so Admiral Rondeau, who ended up going back to work for shoes responsible for everyone who joins the Navy except for the Naval Academy. So, I'm still

in recruiting and we get that because it used to be -- it started with the commanding officer so the recruiting districts could screen tattoos. Like, okay. And then it got to be, oh, if you have a concern tattoo, it has to go all the way to the admiral. So, in hindsight, it's absolutely ridiculous how much time we spent on tattoos, because it started when I was in recruiting, and it continued when I went back to Naval Service Training Command. But what had happened is someone who was a top sailor graduating from boot camp had a tattoo on his face, and the admiral who was the reviewing officer that day was just so bothered by tattoos and that one was on her face. That's why we-we, the Navy, changed our rules and for being on recruiting. And it's like, wow, you just took a lot away, too. You know, there's so many disqualifying factors. Well, now we're throwing in this one about tattoos.

And for me, when people say, "Yeah, but it's the gangs." And it's like there are so many people that join the service to get away from what they had. So, to me, if -- can we address behavior, not, you know, that's a set. So, for the self, regrettably, you know, the Confederate flag is just way too prevalent in my mind being a northerner. But it exists. And when I was in Macon, Georgia, Sonny Perdue was the governor, and he had the Confederate flag removed from the Georgia statehouse. So, where I traveled throughout Georgia, there would be bumper stickers that said Punt Perdue. So, here's a guy, you know, still now he's Commerce, I think, in the Trump administration?

BOWERS HEALEY: Secretary of Agriculture.

KOLAR: Agriculture? Thank you. Agriculture, Sonny Perdue. So, it's like it's a big deal. So just being in the South, a second tour in the South

and how when we went into Iraq, I was against it because I said, "It's not going to be easy." And I have said there, you know, we're not shooting at one another, but we are still debating the Civil War. So that living in Macon, again, my -- in the south, I had a neighbor who was as prejudiced as they come. You know, she was a nice person, but she was terrified because I -- we actually bought a place, figured out it was just going to be easier to own a place than depend on an apartment. I had this wonderful home, and she was a nice neighbor. But yeah, she was terrified that I was going to sell to a person of color when I left. The evidence of prejudice and the consequences of the Civil War in the post-Civil War decisions in our country were still quite evident.

BOWERS HEALEY: And this is in the 21st century?

KOLAR: Oh, yeah, well, and that's it, so there

was -- one of my districts reporting to me. There was a person that had a tattoo with an eagle that kind of blended in the confederate flag. And so, I said, ask him what it means to him, you know, and he's like, "I liked it." So, you know, does this is a person think before they actually put this tattoo on? I kind of doubt it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was the confederate flag a disqualifier or not?

KOLAR: I'm pretty sure it went to the admiral and was a disqualifier.

BOWERS HEALEY: Wow, okay. Anything else? Face? Apparently on the face?

KOLAR: Yeah, you couldn't have them if -- it couldn't be below your sleeve. So, it couldn't be visible in your uniform.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

KOLAR: So, if you had on your neck, disqualifier. To continue with the tattoo story. So then when I do leave Navy recruiting, go back to Great Lakes, and we're responsible for everyone who joins the Navy except from the Naval Academy. And so obviously, boot camp gets the largest amount

of people. And the commanding officer, when I got there, he and I bumped heads like pretty much from the beginning. He was a naval aviator. F-14s or 18s? Anyway just -- we bumped heads. And so, one of the tattoo stories, there was a young lady on her foot, so nobody saw it. I think somebody saw it in the shower. It was why they said, "Oh, my God, she's got a tattoo on her foot." And it was B-I-T-C-H. So she's asked, what is that? And she says, "Beauty in the child's heart." I think that beauty is in the child's heart. So, thank you. So I'm like, okay, you know, she said it, it's on her foot. But he was like, "We have to discharge her."

You know, I'm thinking of the recruiter that got this woman and she's telling her mom, and her mom is livid, but also says that is what it means. Was like, so. Oh, tattoos. It was absolutely ridiculous the amount we spent on tattoos. Just, you know, it wasn't Confederate flags, as you can see this. Oh, my God. There was some change in naval leadership, including recruiting. And it finally stopped. And just in hindsight, I said, "Oh, my God, how much time and effort did we waste on tattoos, including debating B-I-T-C-H on someone's foot?

BOWERS HEALEY: What did you ask? I take it recruiters were asked to ask people, "Do you have a tattoo?"

KOLAR: Yeah, sure. Body art. So that's what it became as body art. Because, you know, because even when we changed -- my first one recruiting, the Master Chief and I were traveling and I loved

him, but somehow, we got in the conversation and he's like, "No piercings." You know, and he's a master chief with tattoos on his arm. And I'm like, "Master Chief, you got tattoos. What's the difference?" "It's different." You know, having an earring is just like, "If I see them, I'll rip them off." Like, oh, my God. You know? So--.

BOWERS HEALEY: We've got to follow up on the foot tattoo, so is this a person who didn't disclose that she had a tattoo, or did somebody never think about asking about on the bottom of her foot?

KOLAR: I think this was probably didn't ask. You know because that never came out. It was this person has a tattoo. It says B-I-T-C-H on her foot. It's not like -- they didn't see it while she's in uniform. Someone saw it when she was in the shower.

BOWERS HEALEY: A lot of time on tattoos.

KOLAR: Oh,

it was. Like I said, I remember the day when we -- the regulation changed and yeah, just so many of us lawyers, you know, recruiters, leadership at a command. Oh, my God, the time we spent on.

BOWERS HEALEY: And the regulation changed to make it more disqualifying?

KOLAR: Less.

BOWERS HEALEY: Less disqualifying? Okay.

KOLAR: Yeah. Just stop wasting so much time on tattoos, I'm sure. Oh, you know what? We really need people. Let's stop worrying about tattoos so much right now. You know, you asked a question earlier. Do you have evidence? You know, that would be good if we did more evidence-based decisions. Not I don't like that tattoo on your face. That's not cool. Like, hey, can they fix that torpedo or performance, measures? Thank you.

BOWERS HEALEY: Anything else coming out of the South recruiting command?

KOLAR: Oh, it just was terrific team. You know, the five commanders, when

I when I say the warfare specialist who didn't make it in their community, but then came to recruiting, I had a submariner down in New Orleans that was just fantastic. And he had a really good team. I actually had encouraged him to be the XO at RTC, but he was he was going to retire. He was loving New Orleans and just-just stayed down there. The Aviator who became -- went to the Naval War College to work with the foreign students. The-the guy who became the commanding officer in Michigan was literally a rocket scientist. So he was from Alaska, a Naval Academy grad, you know, engineering just -- he was fantastic. Oh, what were my other commanders? Oh, yeah, Florida. I think that was another aviator. That was really good.

They -- I was lucky. I had -- I had a really good team. I mean, I had, oh, I had the guy who had been in New Orleans and was one the very last diesel submarine sailors, you know. That was interesting because just that very unique community. He definitely the heart in the right place.

BOWERS HEALEY: You just mentioned Naval Academy throughout your career. Any observations as to how Naval Academy graduates fared as opposed to non-Naval Academy graduates?

KOLAR: So, you asked me the question. So, my line is that the Naval Academy is that network that continues throughout their career. I believe that they do have that advantage, that special relationship that they have. Having completed the Naval Academy. I -- one of the admirals that I work for at Naval Service Training. Command was a Naval Academy grad. I -- you know, I just witnessed

it repeated like, oh, you know, that's academy class of this, or I went to the academy with that person or, you know, just, Oh. Whereas, you know, OCS you're there for 16 weeks. You just don't develop -- have the opportunity to develop those long-term relationships. There's not, you know, the alumni association from Officer Candidate School. ROTC is the, to me, the best of both worlds, though. You get the military training that you need that prepares you for service. But you still have to make some of your own decisions and deal with the consequences that you might not have the opportunity at the Naval Academy, that environment. I just. I just think the name Academy is different, so. But I'm not a Naval Academy grad, but I'm going to see it. Yes. The short answer to your question

is there is definitely an advantage to it -- for if you want particularly -- you want a career in the service academies, have that long term relationship. But at the same time, there was a guy in the reserves, a captain, you know, so he's described to me by the admiral as the anchor man, you know, so he was whatever number they had. Say they had 400 people in their class. He was number 400. But hey, he made captain, you know, he was a nice guy, you know, But then, oh, he's our anchor man. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Appreciate that response. And then you went for four years, 2004 to 2008. You were at the Naval service training command back in Great Lakes.

KOLAR: Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And did you ask for that?

KOLAR: Yeah. I was asked to go back. Okay. So, as I mentioned earlier, when Admiral Rondeau asked me to be her chief

of staff. So, I left recruiting my region early to go be Chief of Staff at Naval Service Training Command. To -- so to be back at Great Lakes, be back with a family. You know, the admiral knew me. She-she asked me to come back to work with her. She knew me from having been the XO at RTC, worked on teams that she had put together and then, you know, continued to work for her when she left. Then the two subsequent admirals after her that I worked for before I retired.

BOWERS HEALEY: Your impression of the job of chief of staff?

KOLAR: I again back in Great Lakes, absolutely loved it. The Admiral Rondeau and Admiral Jones were absolutely wonderful to work for. Incredible professionals. The last admiral that I worked for was -- that was not a good experience. And, you

know, I had already been there a number of years before he came. Seeing his leadership style, a very brilliant man, but abusive and extremely judgmental, arrogant. My frustration with him would be there would be times I would say something, and he would say, you know, don't speak like that or whatever. And then so I just wouldn't talk. Oh, you're not saying anything. Like, what do you want? There -- my commanding officer, one of them at -- when I was a recruit training command was just incredible but didn't tolerate people swearing and recruit division commanders. And he would literally go out at night to see if RDCs, Recruit Division Commanders, were swearing at the recruits.

So, I knew he didn't tolerate, you know, public displays of profanity. And so, the admiral -- so this captain's now retired. He's prior enlisted. There was another retired Limited Duty Officer like him and one in uniform. So, I think the admiral assumed, oh, they're prior enlisted. They're going to like it when I swear. So, I'm at this meeting with the admiral and these LDOs, Limited Duty Officers, and he's swearing like crazy. And I'm just like, is that why he's doing this? You know, and I'm looking at retired -- the retired captain saying, I wonder what he's think, knowing that -- how he worked so hard to not have people publicly using profanity.

And another story related to that because the first week that he's the new admiral and I'm the Chief of Staff. We have recruit training, command graduation, and we

at least -- about once a quarter, we would have the prospective commanding officers and senior enlisted, they go through a two week course in Newport, Rhode Island, for prospective commanding officers and senior enlisted that are about to take over command positions and they come to see a Great Lakes graduation. And then they spend about a half hour with the admiral after graduation. So, it's his, like I said, first-first or second week as the admiral, and I'm accompanying him to graduation and then to this presentation to these people who are about to become commanding officers. And he's saying, God damn this, and God damn that. And he's just again, to this group of professionals, just swearing so much. In my Navy training in the classroom, you didn't swear because -- or tell jokes. I mean, literally, I went to a course where if you told a joke that said he,

you know, that was exclusive language, you got dinged -- your grade got dinged because it's like you don't want to insult anybody -- risk insulting someone in the classroom, because then you lose them. They're not concentrating on the lesson. They're thinking about your joke or your profanity or whatever. So that was my Navy training. So, we're riding back to the office and it's just about noon. And he said, must be afternoons. Oh, no, it's afternoon. I'm going to miss Mass. And I said, "Wow, for a good Catholic boy, you sure do use the Lord's name in vain enough times." He says to me, "Oh, you got to give them something." And I'm like, I-I don't, you know, whatever. So that kind of started the relationship, I guess.

We had the sailor graduated boot camp. And I don't know if she had gotten sick at boot camp, but I think she had graduated boot camp and then her school -- follow-on school was still

at Great Lakes, but she had gotten sick at her follow-on school. They were trying to figure out what was wrong with her. They would say she had a flu. You know, I think she was even accused of malingering. Bottom line is she a brain tumor and she died. And so, the admiral with her family was this gentleman that he really could be. But I had been somewhere one day. And so I came back and one of the senior enlisted, a master chief, she said, "Ma'am, I have to tell you what the admiral said." She said -- she said that he said that the sailor who had died, that he had saved the fleet from this woman because she was just white trash, that she was a single parent, female. She had had a baby before she came in the Navy. So, I was like, yeah, this is what this guy is. And then it's interesting because the Master Chief, I was telling you about that is here in Wisconsin.

He was at Great Lakes at the same time. So, what he knew about this incident

I'm about to tell you in the one that-that he was involved with. His-his point of view of what happened and what I saw -- so -- I'll try to shorten it. A sailor had gotten his arm cut off by a train just south of the base. So, the admiral was so spun up. I think he actually -- he might have said this one to the Chief of Naval Operations too. It was just -- he was -- just took things to such a high level and made assumptions based on first reports. I would say my tour at Recruit Training Command was the epitome of learning to gather more information. Don't make decisions based on first reports, get some more information. So how many times I had to react and respond

to the admiral's being spun up on things that if you gathered, take a breath, gather some more facts. You know, there was more, but he stuck to the thing that was the first report that he got. The sailor was actually trying to kill himself. But what I learned from the medical personnel who had worked with the sailor is that they think he was schizophrenic, and he had actually put his arm on the train track to see what would happen. The first reports were that he had gotten attacked, but the town that it happened in was like, "No, bad things don't happen in this town." And no, that's not what it was. You know, and then and then it was just like, oh, it's suicide. But they said the final conclusion was he was schizophrenic. So, I when I first time I said that to the admiral, he said, "Mary, that's so stupid." And so,

when it came out that, no, that actually was true. So, I was able to say to him, you know, and he admitted it, I give him that. But and so I said, "I guess that wasn't so stupid." I was able to say it back to him, but I just there was just too many stories of professionals, military and civilian, who were some of the best that I worked with that he belittled.

And yeah, so that previous admiral that I told you that was fraud, waste, and abuse. There was a senior enlisted that worked for him that I had so much respect for, and he was getting ready to retire when the previous admiral who actually got relieved. And that master chief said to me, "I'm not going to let this incident influence my memories of my Navy career." You know, he had a good career. He got to be master chief. And that's again, when I say what-what was the takeaway from this interview

is in a heartbeat. I do it again. That admiral has had you know, after I left, someone had reported to the IG. So, the IG, inspector general, did come and asked me about it. Even, you know, I was already retired. And, you know, I said how disappointed I was that a person of his behavior could be an admiral. I saw him do it to other admirals. I was just like, man, he's equal opportunity abuser. There were admirals who just were glad when he was gone because it's just, he was brilliant. He was a nuclear power person. He was brilliant. But as I have said to my kids, told you, my son gets a 99. They're very bright. I said, "God gave you a gift. He didn't make you better than anybody else, but he gave you a gift." So that's-that's how I look at that, Admirals. Just because you're brilliant, does it make it okay to abuse people.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, did that influence your departure

from the service or was that something you decided otherwise?

KOLAR: No. No. I was nearing -- I retired at 28. So, the it wasn't because of him that I retired. I would have had -- what I was being offered was DC -- back to DC, and I just didn't think it was worth the upheaval of my family for two more years in the Navy. But I had an approved retirement, and I actually wrote a letter to rescind my retirement request for orders to Afghanistan, and I did get orders to Afghanistan. So, I was still at Great Lakes waiting to go to start the process -- the trail that you follow to get there -- the path. And so, yeah, it was it was quite unique to still be there at Great Lakes

with my relief was already on board. She took the job as a person who was still there and actually just left this last year. So, at Great Lakes, he said it was it was ironic to see that I drove a hybrid to work and the person who relieved me -- it was a mustang or something. There was just more about her that, yeah, the change was pretty dramatic. She-she was a much better fit for him. Yeah. Anyway, but he and like I said he had been selected for two stars because of the investigation after I left. But based on things that had happened while I was there, he went home as a one star. So, he did not get promoted as he had been selected for. So, it did catch up with him.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you end up going to Afghanistan?

KOLAR: So, I got as far as San Diego and the medical personnel there found

only pre squamous cells and disqualified me from going to Afghanistan. My frustration was my army friend, she's said, "You could have been missing a leg and the army would have taken you." But I still think about it. 11 years, I still haven't gone to Afghanistan, but I still think about it. Because what I witnessed in a short time in San Diego was how quickly people came together. I was going to be the battle captain. They called me. You know, I didn't find out till the morning we're leaving to go to Fort Jackson that I wasn't going to be allowed to go. So, and then to see the people that got to go. Thankfully, you know, the ones I know came back. But yeah, it's frustrating.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, when you were disqualified, then, where did you go?

KOLAR: Six weeks and it took to get me out of San Diego. So was like, yeah. So, I spent a lot of time reading and checking in with the Navy. And yeah, and I discovered it does get cold in San Diego.

You know, I don't know if you've heard the line is it's always 75 and sunny in San Diego. No, no. In February I was taking the train into town or something like that. Why am I so cold? You know, and I see the wind chill, or something is like 35. Yeah, I believe in that. I mean, I'm sure it's still rare in San Diego.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, what? Did they keep you in Balboa or where did you stay?

KOLAR: No, right there in San Diego.

BOWERS HEALEY: One of the bases?

KOLAR: Yes, it was the Naval Station in San Diego because we -- it was still joint because we definitely had the Army people. So, the story I'll tell you from that short time too say it was it was San Diego, I don't know if it was California mentality or what I was like, "Why are people getting away with being late?" I like to be on time. I like to actually be early. But it had been, you know, so this must have been Thursday, a week of people not getting there on time.

And so, I kind of waited like, oh, I get there early, you know, we're going to wait. But I got sort of like a minute before the hour and they shut the door right behind me. So, there are, you know, ten or more people that didn't make it in. So, when they let them in, they said, "If you're on time, you're late." So, I've never forgotten that. That was the army, you know. And since then -- and now that I go to conferences with my peers and again, you're sitting there waiting, I was on a phone call yesterday like, "Oh, let's wait a little longer." When I was on county board, "How long are we going to wait for this people? And why do I have to spend my life waiting for them? Why don't we have a meeting, and they have to catch up?" But anyway, if you're on time, you're late.

BOWERS HEALEY: And after six weeks in San Diego were you discharged there?

KOLAR: I got to be -- again, to find a place and complete

the process. So, I got to come back to Great Lakes and be the executive officer at Training Support Command. So almost 50% of the people who complete Navy boot camp stay in Great Lakes for their A-School. And that-that was tough because, you know, again, I enjoyed it. I'm a Great Lakes. I'm at home enjoying the people. But having been to hundreds of boot camp graduations and seeing brand new sailors and seeing them with their family and they're so excited. But boot camp -- and I actually said this when I was recruiting before my first tour at Recruit Training Command. I said, "But boot camps, the easy part." You're--you're with somebody 24/7 and you have to be here, you have to be there. Everybody's doing it with you. Whatever you're going to get. If you -- the highest propensity for a recruit

or for completing boot camp is to meet the physical requirements, a high school diploma, and have spent some time in the Delayed Entry Program. So, you got --, you got some training for what you're going to have to learn physically fit, you have your high school diploma, so you've proven you can do the academics so you can get through boot camp. Well, then they have liberty and they're in Chicago, North Chicago, Gurnee, whatever the area with the access to drugs, alcohol, and sex. And so, we had mast every week. And it was just so disheartening to see people who had just begun their naval career, and have it end because of stupid stuff that they did on liberty. But the commanding officer that I worked with, you know, he's wearing all the regalia that we wear as Navy captains. He's a commanding officer. We're in Great Lakes. He's

at the podium speaking to these people. But he explained to them he's been where they've been, you know, for the people who had the sad story, particularly of a rough upbringing, he told the story that his dad was an alcoholic. But, you know, he was trying to break free the captain as a child. He had a paper route, and he said his dad would steal his money from the paper route. And it's like, oh man. My upbringing from being poor and not having a lot of options and seeing his and then to know you can relate to people that you were on the path but something out there on liberty took that away from you. And it's just -- it was disappointing to see.

So -- but I'll say more positive thing Training Support Command for Physical Fitness. Friday afternoons the command was at the gym playing volleyball

or, you know, doing whatever. And it's like, oh, this is so much fun that Sally is one of the few commands, including my own, where you could, because recruiting was really hard to get everybody together. You had to do it on your own. But the Training Support Commandant, they got together and did a physical fitness activity together was really good. I think they even had training where you can just go early. So was really good to just go out. And that's probably how I got to know as many people as I did in the short time I was there. Because I was only there a couple of months because my retirement was approved again and then started leave and came to Madison.

BOWERS HEALEY: And had you ever lived in Madison before?

KOLAR: No.

BOWERS HEALEY: Why did you decide to transition to Madison?

KOLAR: Let's take a break.

[Break in recording]

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. We're back with a oral history interview with Mary Kolar. And this should be the track three or track four. So, we will continue on from here. And you just mentioned that you had been

retired from the Navy, so and returned -- and gone to Madison, Wisconsin. I think my question was why Madison, Wisconsin?

KOLAR: We had actually come up here in 2004. We being my sister, her husband, my husband, and I. We -- my sister had gotten an alumni -- UW Madison Alumni magazine that had an advertisement for condos. We came up, checked them out, walked around the square. I just felt, yeah, I can get a job here. So, it was wonderful to know that my sister and her husband and my husband and who we are closest to with the family, we've spent so many holidays with them, so moving to Madison, enjoying retirement with less--

BOWERS HEALEY: And your sister lives in?

KOLAR: Still lives in Madison also. Yeah, we actually ended up moving -- so we both bought condos in downtown Madison,

which we lived at for seven years. And then my husband and I wanted just a little more room, so we moved to a different one. But we're still within blocks. So, we're still --we're still here enjoying downtown Madison. And it is because of what Madison has to offer. Education, just so many activities that you can do in the Madison area and take advantage of all the benefits of being in a city but being in rural Wisconsin in a very short time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where were your children at that time in terms of age bracket?

KOLAR: Well, that was helpful too. Right. So, Matthew had gone to university for two years, but would be on the dean's list or the probation list. And we said we weren't going to fund his education anymore, that he needed to find something else because of his performance

at university. So, he joined the Navy and he's still in the Navy. He's a submariner. That was shortly after we moved here. He actually lived in our home in Illinois until he went to boot camp and Jamie was completed high school the year that I retired. So, he started at UW Madison, and he got his bachelor's degree at UW Madison. He didn't live with us. He lived close. So, he had the college life. He lived in the dorm, lived in apartments.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And what did you and your husband start doing when you moved to Madison?

KOLAR: So, Scott retired completely. He volunteers. My goal was to still work, but I wanted to be able to walk to work. I had -- I had applied

at some other places. But when I saw an advertisement for security at the Madison Museum of Contemporary Art, and I'm like, I can do that. So, I applied. You know, didn't think too much of it. I was enjoying retirement, got a call and, you know, short version of that is I was hired to be -- I was the director of public operations at the Madison Museum of Contemporary Art or MMoCA. And it's two blocks from where we lived at the time. So, I could leave for work about 10 minutes before I needed to be there. And being responsible for security. So, when alarms would go off or someone forgot to lock a door and alarms would go off, I-I could just walk over there. So even then I can -- I don't think it was even that very late because usually my -- our operations, our people, if they forgot, it was usually like 10:10.

I mean when the phone rang at 10:10 from our own contracted security because an alarm went off, I knew exactly what it was. Somebody forgot to lock a door or set an alarm or whatever. So, it was very simple to walk over there and take care of it. So, it was a good job.

The best part of the job was that -- I compared it to being a lieutenant again. Cause when I was at home in the helicopter squadron. I remember my commanding officer who was a commander, say that lieutenant was the best pay grade because you have responsibility, but you can still have fun. And that's -- that's what MMoCA was. I typically had about 15 employees, most of whom were college students, and they were just so much fun to work with because they're -- again, they're like ensigns, I looked at. But -- and I-I know that -- I know my reputation was for being tough, but I treated them like they were ensigns. Like, you're in college,

you need more responsibility. You need to be responsible. I'm going to hold you accountable. And I had some that were just phenomenal, including ones that became police officers or physical therapists or-or did join the military. But I had artists and teachers -- that teachers that's -- I think the job was conducive to particularly the education majors and the art majors who need needed to be responsible.

The ones who had challenges was the ones who wanted to talk a lot. You just need to guard the art. Let the people see the art. So that was funny. Just, you know, I lost one really good employee to a waitressing job. And I said it's because you're so -- she was just such a wonderful person to talk to. I said, "I bet you get really good tips, don't you?" She said, "Yeah." So anyway. Whereas I paid better than minimum. But anyway, it was an art gallery,

and it was, it was just tremendous. What for me, the most rewarding of my seven years at a MMoCA is I worked with federal VA, and they have a program for formerly homeless veterans. They help the veterans turn their life around and then the ones that they felt were conducive to working at MMoCA. I would interview and I ended up hiring over the seven-year period six who were formerly homeless.

BOWERS HEALEY: I didn't ask you, but now that you talked about MMoCA for 7 years, how did you kind of decompress from being in the military for 28 years? Was that a hard transition or not?

KOLAR: Like, so that was funny at MMoCA, because when I would be a disciplinarian or, you know, there was people I would let go. I heard people

say, "Well, she's like that because she's in the military." But I was like, "This is business. You know, you need to come to work on time." I -- you know, it's a security job if you're not here on time, the-the museum's not secure -- the art's not secure. You know, there is -- there is a risk to it. So, I also became the president of our condo association. So, I think the transition was just that I did enough to keep me busy. Just this last weekend, the Veterans Museum Gala, the guest speaker was a Medal of Honor recipient Clinton Romesha. And the action -- his military service in general in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then particularly, the near-death experience that for which she received

the Medal of Honor, could really affect his life. He had such a positive attitude, but he said it on Saturday night that he when he got out, he went right into the oil fields, and he kept really busy. You know, his words really. He got really busy. And so that's what I see, is that I just use the skills. And I think that's why my neighbors at the condo said -- reached out to me to be on the board. And then because of things that happened on the same night that I'm elected to the board, I was elected president of the board. People saw and wanted the leadership. So yeah, there are people that didn't like my style.

Actually, I'll tell a story. So, I would have my predecessor as president of the condo association, the condo meetings would go on for 2 hours and at least a half

of that would be the president talking. And they were so painful. So, I come in, I -- here's the agenda. You know, give everyone ample opportunity to get agenda items. Here's your agenda. We go through the agenda, and you're done. So, we did have 15-minute meetings quite often. But the feedback I would get from some people is you don't let people talk and it's like, "You have something?" You know, about this agenda item. And I made sure that the condo management, which is a big part of it too. I said I wouldn't -- it would be different if we didn't have condo property management. And I would say, "If you have an issue, let them know. You know, don't wait for a board meeting. Tell condo management today when you have that issue. Don't wait." Sort of thing. But suppose, you know, there will be people that say, I didn't let people talk. Yes, I do. I just want you to do it. Either it's an agenda item or if it's your personal issue, let's talk about it offline.

But when I was

-- so I was on county board for 6 years. So, the first time I ran, I did -- it was a special election, and I did have an opponent and got elected. I forget how much -- by overwhelming majority, I'm sure the first time too. And then the next time in a regular election, I didn't have an opponent. But then then the next year -- the next session, I had an opponent so I really worked hard to ensure that I would get reelected. So, I called a person, you know, I had since moved to a different condo, but I called a person who was in the first condo building and I said, you know, "Can I count on your vote?" And she said, "I don't know. You're pretty authoritarian." And I said, "Oh, well, thank you for that feedback." And then I named all these well-known politicians in elected office who support me. And I

said, I just want you to know, you know, I name all the people who had endorsed me. Oh, okay. You know, she thought she could vote for me. And I've talked to her since, but I'm like, alright.

So, it's like, okay, thanks for the feedback. You don't like the authoritarian style. I'm good with that, but I would do it again to have the 15-minute meetings instead of 2 hours. And it's an agenda and you have control over that agenda, not just me. You know, if you want to item on there, we can get on there and we can talk about it. But anyway -- so county board obviously is part of it, too. That I do see I've got to be busy. That's the transition. I'm just as busy. Not -- this job isn't. It's not like the Navy. I -- we've talked about it, some of the people that I worked for that would write emails on Sunday

that, you know, had such consequence. So, I have said it as recently as this week. I'm so thankful that when I pick up my phone on Sunday and there will be none or maybe one email, and it's not anything that can't wait till Monday. So, people can enjoy their family life. This is -- you know, we are serving, we are meeting our mission, but we are valuing life work balance. That's the difference between the Navy that.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how did your selection for this job come about?

KOLAR: When -- I supported Tony Evers for governor of Wisconsin, from the first inkling that I heard that he was going to run. I have not known him on a personal level, just professionally. Nonetheless, he did live in the condo that he and his wife -- in the same condo that we live in. I had been supportive of him as the

Department of Public Instruction, and he's won statewide office. How he had won his previous election for DPI, I was very pleased with his style of leadership. So, when it became more obvious that it was likely a good chance that he was going to win, I reached out to people who I knew who worked for Governor Evers and I said, "Hey, if I can help finding WDVA, let me know." And the response consistently was, "What about you?" But there was a person who I had in mind, and I would recommend that person. But I kept hearing, "Well, what about you?"

So, I got to thinking, oh my God, what if that person she doesn't want and I better I better apply. So, it was Thanksgiving last year that I worked on my application. I don't know if you're familiar with

the transition team online, but it gave you a number of options. If you wanted to apply for a specific job or you wanted to apply for everything or whatever. But I said, you know, you made it very clear I was applying to be the secretary of the Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs. So, I sent in my resume and had the phone interview first with the transition team. I think there was another one to that. And then the meeting with the governor and the person who is now his chief of staff. So, an interview with the governor and he asked why I wanted this position. And I said that I believe everything that I've done to date has led to this, but also the things I didn't get to do. You know, I didn't say to the governor when I didn't get to go to Afghanistan, that was extremely disappointing. When I, you know, didn't get a job

because I was a female and whatever. But so, I'm okay in hindsight with the things I didn't get to do because I'm here now. I'm here serving veterans.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, you've been in this job for a year.

KOLAR: Just about, it's 11 months.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what are some of the highlights of this job?

KOLAR: This team that I have of supporting veterans -- I remember it was, yeah -- anyway, if you heard the book Good to Great and in the book Good to Great, they spent a lot of time talking about you need to pick your team. You know how critical it is to take your organization from good to great, you need to be able to pick your team. And for me, the military, you didn't get to pick your team. You know, I said that's leadership in the military where you deal with who the detailer sent you,

you know, or where the detailer send you that -- okay, you got to work with this team and-and develop that team. And I have said that at leadership training. I remember when I was a featured speaker for some leadership training for some -- it was a civilian professor, civilian class. And one of the students says, "Oh, you got it easy in the military. You just ordered people to do stuff." And I said, "No." I said, "You develop your team, you develop your team. And then when you actually have a crisis where you need to say, we need to do this now. You know, people are with you because you have done the training, you've developed the team that trusts you, and you'll get something done."

So, this job, this team, I-I was able to choose a number of people. Not everyone. And I had some other choices, but the team that I have, I'm so incredibly thankful for. If you've seen

today, this-this office here, it's not just the XO, CO. It's not. It's the secretary, deputy secretary, assistant secretary, legal counsel, and our communications person that's in this front office and the people that assist them. And so the services that we provide and the people I've been able to hire since I came here that are working on the homes. Our homes are just these wonderful places that are unique community for veterans. When veterans WDVA homes, one of the three homes, they are with people who understand them. We've literally heard that family members say that they learned stories about their veteran family member that they never heard before. But the veterans, excuse me, told their fellow

member of the home a story, and that's how the family found out. So, it's just -- I can't imagine a better place to be. So, again, military service, my experience at MMoCA, experience on county board, condo president just all those things that this -- I can't imagine a better place to be. I don't consider it work. It's-it's a mission. It's a -- my reason for living. It's-it's just wonderful.

BOWERS HEALEY: Is there anything else that you would like people who in the future listen to this oral history or to read your-your history that you would like to let them know? About you or about your work?

KOLAR: Military service. I strongly recommend it. The people you meet, the places you go.

The other day I actually was doing a video with the DNR, and it was focused on the Department of Natural Resources and WDVA, Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs, veterans who are hunting. And so, you know, what stories do you have? I don't have deer hunting stories. I've never hunted, period, in my life. But being out there, you know, three of the four of us were veterans. And I said, yeah, this is just another thing that the military service does. Here it is. I was in -- at the homes earlier. I was at King earlier in the morning and had a wonderful time at-at King. But to once again be with veterans and it's like, hey, isn't this cool? This is another incredible event. I said -- you know, when I was at RTC, Oprah Winfrey came to RTC and did this phenomenal, you know, event -- hours with the recruits

and all these things that she did. And it's like, I wouldn't had that.

When I was at boot camp and did the graduations when I was executive officer, I would escort the guest speaker. So, I got to have these conversations with our national leaders and our national heroes, you know, the Tuskegee airmen that were still with us then, Battle of Midway survivors. I just -- Pearl Harbor survivors. So, all the people that I've been able to meet. And then when you do have your family too -- what your family gets to -- even though they're not the person on active duty, they get to have that experience. Scott was naval service, but he got to still be, you know, part of the military family. So being in this job now is just -- it's like it gets -- you get to continue that unique specialness that serving in the military and being a veteran.

It's just, it's very special.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, we're getting close to the end here. My last question, or maybe not my last one, but why did you decide to do this oral history? Why was it important to you or why did you agree to do it?

KOLAR: I think it's important to have the stories told. We have our Wisconsin Veterans Museum whose mission is to tell veterans' stories. I hope that people listen to the stories, even it's a tiny bit of as many people as they can to just know who their neighbors are, who served their country, who were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for them and know that, yeah, that's your neighbor that's can be like you, that's different from you, but is here and has

a good story to tell you. And if-if-if you have the time to listen, I strongly encourage.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Thank you. Is there anything else that you would like to add or address that I haven't asked about?

KOLAR: I'd say thank you for doing this. You've been doing this for ten years already, you said.

BOWERS HEALEY: About that. And it's been wonderful listening to the stories of our fellow Wisconsinites.

KOLAR: I can just -- I can imagine just ten years of incredible stories and -- any -- so anyone prior to World War Two?

BOWERS HEALEY: I have not talked to anyone prior to World War Two.

KOLAR: Okay, cause that would be hard.

BOWERS HEALEY: A lot of World War Two veterans contributed, I would imagine they are the bulk of the people who have given their oral histories, and I was fortunate enough to start early enough so that I was able to capture quite a few of those.

KOLAR: Cause we're sadly losing them too quick. Yeah. Well, again,

I appreciate that you're doing this on behalf of Wisconsin veterans, thank you.

BOWERS HEALEY: Well, thank you for your time today.

KOLAR: You're welcome.

BOWERS HEALEY: Appreciated it.

[Interview Ends]