Oral History Interview with Ronald Hoffman

[Interview Begins]

ROWELL: Today is March 15th, 2021. This is an interview with Ronald W. Hoffman, who served in the United States Marine Corps from 1966 to 1968. He served during the Vietnam War. The interview is being conducted by Kate Rowell at the Wisconsin Veterans Museum. The interview is being recorded for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else is present. The interview is being conducted over the phone during the COVID-19 pandemic. So let's start with when and where you were born.

HOFFMAN: Yes, Born in [XXXXXXXXXXX]. And [XXXXXXXXXXXX] And I lived there till the time I went in service.

ROWELL: Can you spell that place name for me?

HOFFMAN: Wasn't that. I'm sorry.

ROWELL: Could you spell that for me, please?

HOFFMAN: Two Rivers. T-W-O-R-I-V-E-R-S. And that's in Manitowoc County.

ROWELL: Okay. Thank you. So what did your family do in Two Rivers?

HOFFMAN: My dad had a construction company doing commercial and industrial building schools and factories and things like that.

ROWELL: And how about your mom?

HOFFMAN: Mama was a stay at home Mom raising five of us, six of us. [Laughs] And she had worked prior to their marriage. But at the time when they got married, they were not allowed to have married women in the factory. I guess that would just before the war started. Of course, that changed real quick. But yeah, she, she was a secretary at one of the factories in town before that.

ROWELL: Okay. And what was it like growing up with those six siblings in your house?

HOFFMAN: I was right around in the middle of the group there. And it was a nice town, too. It was such a nice, quiet sort of town, about 2000 people, to grow up 00:02:00in. It was, you know, not a lot of crime or anything like that. People still got picked up for jaywalking and things that you don't see anymore today at all. And all in all it was a pleasant enough childhood and a nice enough town to grow up in.

ROWELL: Mhm. And where did you attend school?

HOFFMAN: The first school was St. Luke's up until the sixth grade and sixth, seventh and eighth I attended All the Redeemer (?). There was a new school that was built, one of the buildings that my my dad's company put up. And so I spent the last three years there. And then I went to Washington High School, which is 00:03:00the only high school in in Two Rivers at that time.

ROWELL: Right. And were those religious schools?

HOFFMAN: The first two were. Yes.

ROWELL: So what were you up to before you were drafted, before you entered the military?

HOFFMAN: At that time, I was working for my dad on an apprenticeship program, studying to be a journeyman carpenter, it's a four year program. And I was in it about two years and I could have stayed out. I could have gotten a deferment to continue that education. But I figured everybody I know would probably be getting out of the service and I would first be going in. And so I never applied for a deferment. And by not doing so, I ended up being drafted and went into the service that way.

ROWELL: And did any of your family members serve in the military?

HOFFMAN: None of them did. My dad didn't either. I was the only one. The rest 00:04:00went on to college and got their various degrees. I had cousins who were in the service, but no immediate family members.

ROWELL: And what was your attitude toward serving in the Vietnam War?

HOFFMAN: I, at the time, I felt that was probably what we should be doing. Yeah, maybe because it did come from a small town where I didn't hear a whole lot about the demonstrations and things. Yet at that time of course, that was 66, they were just starting. But I felt that everyone, if they had an opportunity to serve, they should. I believed in what our government was telling us about the domino theory that if Vietnam fell to communism, so would Laos and Cambodia and maybe even Australia. And so we were there to stop the spread of communism.

ROWELL: So you went to enlist in the Marine Corps before you were drafted once, right?

HOFFMAN: I tried to one time and they wouldn't take me. They said my eyes were too bad, like 20 over 600 in one eye and 20 over 800 in the other, so kind of blind in one, couldn't see out the other. But then when they turned around and drafted me, it was shortly after the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and at that time they were building up the military and all the branches. And pretty much if you could breathe, they wanted you. And so they drafted me. And when I got down to Milwaukee for my physical and things, I ended up getting into the Marine Corps.

ROWELL: So why did you choose the Marine Corps?

HOFFMAN: I don't know. I just always kind of felt they were the best and if 00:06:00you're gonna do something, I try to do the best. And so that's what I did. They give us a sheet at the time saying which branch did you want, first, second, third. And if there are openings they put you in and I had put down the Marine Corps, and sure enough there it was. End of the day I was in San Diego, California.

ROWELL: So do you recall the day that you that you were drafted and you entered the Marine Corps?

HOFFMAN: Yes, I do. My dad gave me a ride down to the courthouse in Manitowoc. Anyone that was going in the service that day were to meet at the back steps of the courthouse early in the morning. And it was really, really cold out that day. And a bus came by, picked us up. I think it started north of us a ways and stopped at some different cities and picked us up. And we we all ended up down in in Milwaukee for a physical.

ROWELL: And how was that? What was that like?

HOFFMAN: Just a bunch of guys standing around very nervous, wondering about what was coming next. And it was just the general physical for everybody. And then once they decided what rank you're going into, they swore you in. And I remember having to take that step forward where everybody that goes in stepped out of civilian life and into military life by tradition sort of thing. And of course, once you're in the military, you abide by their laws rather than the laws of the civilian. And so yeah, then after that the day was over with,they gave us a ride over to the airport, Billy Mitchell, and we flew out to California. That being 00:08:00my very first airplane flight.

ROWELL: How was that for you?

HOFFMAN: I was very nervous about getting on that plane. I was one that had white knuckles on the ferris wheel and wouldn't go on a lot of different the carnival rides and stuff. We had to get close to it. They see these big jets taking off and I thought, oh, geez, I don't know, but I enjoyed that flight. Then I had probably put on, you know, thousands of miles since then. So.

ROWELL: And how did your family react to you entering the military?

HOFFMAN: They were, I guess, kind of quiet about it. They didn't say too much one way or the other. It was a choice I had made. I'm sure if they had their choice in it, they would probably prefer I went on to college or was a little safer like my brothers did and my sister, so well. But again, it was something 00:09:00that I chose to do by not applying for a deferment. And who knows, I might have been drafted afterwards anyway.

ROWELL: So when and where did you attend boot camp?

HOFFMAN: At the San Diego recruit depot in California. And then while there we went to the rifle range at Pendleton. And after I graduated, then I went on to regular school at Camp Pendleton and studied that. And so that was the end of January that I went in and beginning of June, when I got to leave to go back home after all the training was done.

ROWELL: And how did you adjust to boot camp?

HOFFMAN: I didn't have, I don't think nearly the problems that some did. I mean, you get somebody standing two inches from your nose screaming at you, it can be a little bit nerve wracking. I tried to look at it like, like this guy is trying to be so tough right now. And sometimes I had to keep him smiling. So I guess it was my defense as to how to put up with it.

ROWELL: And how were your instructors? How would you characterize them?

HOFFMAN: They were rough. They did things back then that they were not allowed to do anymore. I know some of the guys at the rifle range didn't lock up the rifles and they were called in to the drill instructor's office and got there, had to go in there to get their rifles in and while he was talking to them he would take the barrel of that rifle and tap them on the forehead so that when 00:11:00they came out they a little welts on their forehead from it. Some had tears in their eyes. Thank goodness mine was locked up and I didn't have to go through that gauntlet. But, yeah. Or they'd get you in behind the bushes and have you hold that rifle out at your fingertips for a long time. And I think some of those things and the cussing at you and stuff, I guess the people have complained over the years, so they had to cut back and all that stuff. But that was still very prevalent when when I went in.

ROWELL: How did you feel about that?

HOFFMAN: It was part of the whole thing. I remember writing home to my dad and saying, geez, I thought in construction there was a lot of cussing, but that's nothing compared to what goes on here.

ROWELL: So what were the living conditions like in boot camp?

HOFFMAN: We still had the old Quonset huts with the racks too high on each side. Last time I was down there. I see those are really gone now and they have all brick buildings up, more dormitory type things. But we we had the metal Quonset huts and then when we came back from the rifle range, we were in tents, with just the plywood floor in it. I think the reason being is they were just getting so many people through there so fast that they just didn't have housing, permanent housing, built for them. Yeah, it was just didn't seem out of the ordinary. That's part of your training.

ROWELL: So you mentioned spinal meningitis in your book: To Hear Silence, can 00:13:00you tell me more about that?

HOFFMAN: Well, yeah, there was spinal meningitis going around while we were in boot camp. And so almost all of our classes were held outdoors. So we'd be sitting in the fresh air rather than in a classroom setting. And then too, there wasn't any swimming classes or anything like that because because of it going round. I don't remember seeing anybody with it. You know, it just that we were told there is some around on the base and so for caution, to be cautious of the thing they they had us outside as much as possible.

ROWELL: And did you make any friends in boot camp?

HOFFMAN: I did. I did. I made, one of the guys, I was with in boot camp I had gone to high school with and he got drafted at the same time. We never really 00:14:00hung around in high school. He played football, I didn't and stuff like that, but I knew who he was, and he ended up having the rack right below me in boot camp. And so we were pretty much together all the time there. There were other ones, Bradley Nelson from Portland, Oregon, and Jim Moncur from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and Greg Moore from Saint Paul. Yeah, so Gerald Robinson, he was from Kewaunee. And so, you know, we got to know a few of them pretty well. We would hang out together later on with several of us ended up going over together. And so we we got to know each other better there as well.

ROWELL: Are there any events or memories from boot camp that you'd like to share?

HOFFMAN: I can't think of any one in particular. My folks stopped out there once while I was going through and I got to see them. Of course, then the drill instructor wants to, you know, make you look foolish and stuff. So after they left the, you know, had me go in front of the platoon and wave goodbye to them, you know. So it was somewhere between California and Wisconsin and, you know, crazy things like that. And of course, you couldn't have any any chocolates or cookies or anything sent to to because, not in boot camp. They would confiscate that kind of stuff. No, I guess I don't remember anything in particular that jumps out otherwise.

ROWELL: And how long did you spend in boot camp?

HOFFMAN: Well, I'm trying to think. I don't remember exactly. I think it was 00:16:00like six weeks or something like that. I think it it normally had been eight weeks, if I remember right. But they cut it down to six in order to get people through there quicker and to get them over to Vietnam. But I think about six weeks and you had the infantry training. And then I had, you know, almost a month and a half of radio training after boot camp.

ROWELL: So can you tell?

HOFFMAN: Oh, sorry.

ROWELL: Oh, no, please go ahead.

HOFFMAN: I wouldn't say at all added up, you know, from the end September to the beginning of June?

ROWELL: So can you tell me more about your radio training?

HOFFMAN: It was to operate the field radios. There were several different, 00:17:00different types. I got into that part of communications. There was also the wire men who got into the part of stringing wires off electrical poles and wiring up different generators and things like that where mine was actually talking on on the field phones? And so after I finished that, I was a field radio operator. And we were the ones that once you got to Vietnam, we would call to the companies and to the artillery units and things.

ROWELL: Do you remember what model your radio was?

HOFFMAN: Mine was a PRC25, which weighed about 25 pounds. And then you also had 00:18:00to carry a spare battery. And the battery was, I think, just about another 10 pounds. Since then, the radios have certainly gotten a lot smaller than what I had. But you put that on top of your regular gear when you're out in the field and you carry it around with you.

ROWELL: Did you get to pick your occupational specialty?

HOFFMAN: Well, it was the 2531 was the field radio operator. And I guess they decided I should be that out of the test that they give you a boot camp. They run you through all different types of of test and whatever you scored the highest in I guess that's what they ended up having you do. But I didn't go in 00:19:00there with the idea that I would like to be a radio operator or anything like that. It was what they assigned to me.

ROWELL: All right. And can you describe your last phase of stateside training?

HOFFMAN: Well, after after my leave, I came back and I was supposed to be a replacement over in Vietnam. In other words, guys that were either killed or their time was up or for some reason wounded, were coming back to the States. There were always people, soldiers going over there to take their place. And that's what I was supposed to do. And but before I got shipped out, they transferred me over to the newly formed Fifth Marine division. That's the 00:20:00division that fought during World War Two on Iwo Jima and other areas. And then after the war, they decommissioned the thing. And it stayed that way until March, I believe it was of '66 while I was in boot camp. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara reactivated them and they formed back up at Pendleton, and I was part of that, I got moved over and became part of that unit. And so a whole battalion of us went over at the same time that way. So we were a new, new unit actually forming in Vietnam rather than replacing individual people.

ROWELL: Can you tell me what it was like training as a forward observer?

HOFFMAN: It was, a forward observer were the guys who we were part of the artillery unit and the forward observers would go out with the infantry, or the grunts as a lot of people referred to them. And when they would get in trouble, we were the ones who would radio back to the artillery and tell them where where we were, where the enemy was. And so they knew where to point the big guns and shoot out to help the infantry out in the field. When we practiced in the States, it was a five man team. We had a lieutenant that was in charge of the team, a scout who is normally a corporal, or could it be a sergeant, two radio operators and a wire man and the wire man was there not to string wire, but as 00:22:00security for us. But as we soon as we got over to Vietnam and the lieutenants found other things to do and so they disappeared. And pretty soon it was down to, in some cases, just two people, the scout and one radio operator. Sometimes it was the scout and two radio operators, or could be a radio operator and a wire man with the scout. So it became a smaller team once we got over there. And I think part of that is, all the units were shorthanded. It just seemed like no unit ever had the proper number of people, were always a few short. And so people had to make up the difference in there. And so on the radio, on the forward observer team. 00:23:00And instead of being five, it could be, you know, three or four or even two in some cases. I'm sorry. I'm just going to say it got to be a little hairy as far as the fact that the enemy always knows if they can get rid of the officers, those in command, in charge, and get rid of the radio operators so they can't call for help. And then the medics, you know, some of those you have a much better chance of overcoming the rest of the troops. And I guess that's one of the things I kind of liked more about the Marines. From what I understand, the Army was like the Army were all specialists. Everyone specialized in something where the Marines were at least semi cross-trained. So, for example, if I were 00:24:00to get shot, somebody else could pick up that radio and make communications with somebody. May not be proper radio procedure exactly, but they at least knew a little bit about it and so someone could take my place. Which is reassuring. You know, if anybody got hurt that way somebody else could, if it's a machine gunner somebody else could handle the machine gun if they had to. So.

ROWELL: All right. Can you tell me a bit about a training operation that you were involved in called Silver Point Three, was on the California coast while you were in training?

HOFFMAN: You know, that was a practice operation. We would set up a red team and a blue team one against the other as a major operation, practice operation. And 00:25:00some of us, like myself, went down to San Diego and we got on some ships and we sailed up the coast at California, up to Pendleton. And then from there, we flew in helicopters to be part of the operation. Some went right to to the scene, right to where the operation took place. And it was a couple of days practice large, very large practice, one of the largest ones they had out there at the time.Again, always part of your training. Always. And the reason they do that is we were a new unit forming up. And so we had, all of us, had to learn how to operate as a unit. You know, they threw a bunch of radio operator people in their guys that worked on the guns, mechanics, truck drivers, all the different 00:26:00professions that are needed out there. And now you got to learn to work as a well-oiled machine. And so that's why they have this kind of big operation, so they know what each each person does and what their job is in the whole picture. And so that's why they had those types of practices.

ROWELL: And you said you had some leave time before you left. Can you tell me about that?

HOFFMAN: Yes. Beginning of June, I had a 30 day leave. I came back to Two Rivers and I can't say I did much of anything, I guess. While I was there, I went with my mom over to Boston to visit one of my brothers that was out there at the 00:27:00time. But most of the time it was just, you know, hanging around the city and, you know, hanging out with friends and things and. Uh, so that was like 30 days and then that was it until actually I got back from Vietnam. And then I got another 30 day leave like that.

ROWELL: How did it feel to leave home?

HOFFMAN: Um, at first it was a little nervous not knowing, you know, what you were going to be like. Were you going to also be homesick and things? Um, I'd never really been away from home very long growing up. But once you get to boot camp and everybody gets busy doing their thing, you kind of, you know, you forget about the Friday nights out on the town with your buddies and all that, and you are thinking only about what's going on there at the time. And so it 00:28:00didn't take long you didn't miss it at all from being at home. You know, you met new people and you had your jobs to do and your training. And so it was quite ordinary, just not just not to think about being back home.

ROWELL: So can you tell me about being deployed?

HOFFMAN: Well, when we went over, like I say, we went over as a whole battalion. And so we went by ship. So there were three ships in our convoy. And along with all of the Marines that were going over, we also had the sailors, of course, on board. And all of the equipment that we would need, over six 105 howitzers, 00:29:00needed trucks, tanks, bulldozers, ammunition, you know, all of these kind of things got loaded then on board the ships. And so we sailed over there. I think it took about 20, 27 days, something like that from the time we left San Diego until we got to Okinawa. So it's a long, long, jaunt, a long tour. And on the way over, we ran into Typhoon Ida, which was what I heard the worst one in 20 years in that area off of Japan. And after it left us, it tore up our ship really good, it ended up going and hitting Japan and wiped couple of villages 00:30:00off the map and hundreds of people died and stuff in the landslides and stuff from it. But for us, it tore off the night lights from our ship and messed up the railings, twisted these pipe railings on the ship, the lifeboats, the life rafts all filled with water or ripped loose and sank. We lost our radar. Um. It hit right after breakfast, and we lost power on board ship for a while. And so we were just kind of floating out there in very heavy winds. I was told somewhere around 120 mile an hour winds with about 100 foot swells. And although these ships are very big, you know, they're they're at least twice the length of a football field. Some have been one of them even much longer than that. It 00:31:00still gets me feeling pretty small out there with these big waves in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. But after about 8 hours, it finally settled down and a lot of sick a lot of sick Marines on board that ship that day. Thank goodness I did not get sick. And thank goodness I did not. I was not on the cleaning crew the next day cleaning up these restroom areas or the heads, as they call them. It was a real mess with as sick as people got. One of the guys, I was on guard duty that day so I was in the guard shack, and we had one of the guys from there find his way up to the mess hall and grabbed a couple loaves of bread and brought it back down to us. So we had something to eat during this thing. One of the problems a lot of people have when they get sick is they don't eat. And pretty 00:32:00soon you get carrying up the lining of your stomach and stuff. So you always try to keep something down there. If you do have to throw up, at least have something to throw up. And so, yeah, he stole a few loaves of bread out of there and certainly helped the guys that were were feeling pretty tough. But it was it was pretty nasty. We had, they told us to prepare for abandoning ship, so we all had our life preservers on just in case the captain said abandon ship. But the life preservers were very heavy. They probably came with the ship when when was built back in 1945 or so, and probably would have weighted you down more than held you up. I don't know. I didn't want to try it out, but thank goodness we didn't have to jump over with those kind of winds and those kind of waves. We probably wouldn't last very long with or without a preserver. But then we 00:33:00finally made our way to the Philippines and to much calmer weather and. Uh. And then we caught the floating battalion became part of the special landing force where we would float up and down the coast of Vietnam in case some units would get hit hard in country. We could quickly hop on the helicopters and go in and help them. As it turned out, for a month or two that we had to do that, we never, never got called to go in country, but we would do that. And then we'd go back to Subic Bay in the Philippines and then we'd do fake operations again like we did in California. And then we would float again for a few more days up and 00:34:00down the coast until I think it was like December 11th of '66, where we then finally went in country. We depart the ships on rope ladders down into the landing craft and circle around till everybody was off the ship and then went in and landed at Dong Ha, which is fairly close to the DMZ up in the northern part there of South Vietnam. So that was kind of our exciting trip over.

ROWELL: And you are on the USS Lenawee, right?

HOFFMAN: That's correct. Yeah. That was the Lenawee in that convoy. Valley Forge, which was a an old aircraft carrier, it was now much too short for the 00:35:00new planes and so they used it for helicopters. And then there was the Belle Grove which also was a ship that they had a lot of the heavy equipment on it. Lenawee had a lot of the men on board that one, although there were men stationed on allt three of them. But the Valley Forge, I'm sorry, the Lenawee didn't have the heavy equipment on. It wasn't built for that purpose. But they say they were all well over a football field and a half, two football fields long, so big ships carry everybody.

ROWELL: So what was it like living on those ships during the time you were going from the States to Okinawa, then the Philippines?

HOFFMAN: It was tight quarters, [Laughs] obviously, that our sleeping quarters, they had the racks, which was basically just a piece of canvas stretched around an aluminum tube that was probably two foot wide by about seven foot long. And they were stacked five high. So you could stick five people on each side of an aisle. And it was row after row with those. So in the morning, you you all get up you have about ten people in an area. It's about maybe three foot by maybe eight foot. Try to get dressed in there. You learn, you learn to stay in your rack and get dressed in there before you hop down. And yeah, it was was it 00:37:00pretty tight? Plus, you know, it's an old, old ship. Some of them were built in '44, I think it was built in 1945. So it's built like a very old locker room plus you had the smell of diesel fuel in there. So it was not a very pleasant place to to be. So whenever you could when it's a nice out or whatever, you are always sitting out on the deck. And of course, we had training out on the deck every day, whether it was how to conduct yourself over there in Vietnam, or it could be classes on the different types of snakes that you were going to probably encounter or or it could be physical therapy, uh, phy ed, you know, the jumping jacks and stuff. But every day they kept you busy doing a lot of things like that up on top, on the deck. And when you weren't, you just sat around up 00:38:00there either writing letters or shooting the bull with your buddy or so. But, yeah, if you didn't have to be down in that sleeping quarters, you preferred not to be.

ROWELL: So do you remember when you landed in Okinawa?

HOFFMAN: When we landed there, it was the water is what I remember most is the most beautiful turquoise color I'd ever seen. So the white sand, the on the beach and under the water, and especially right after, you know, we had gone through that typhoon. It was very calm, very beautiful and felt good for two feet on solid ground again after 20 some days on board ship. But yeah, we didn't 00:39:00stay there too long before we went over to Subic Bay. And that became more of our place of operations where we would, whenever we weren't on a fake operation, or if we weren't floating up and down the coast of Vietnam, we were we were at Subic Bay and we had brand new Quonset huts there. I mean, they were brand new. There wasn't anything in them but a concrete floor. And so we had these small air mattresses, much like you would use to float around on in a swimming pool or so. Of course ours were all green, but you had that and a couple of blankets to sleep on. And, uh, I remember one night we were all sitting up, talking back and forth for a while. Why we were sitting up? I don't know. You couldn't see your 00:40:00hand in front of your face. I mean, it was black, black, very, very dark out there. And we're talking about the fact that there was a rat in our Quonset hut in it where we had stacked all the gear and stuff and one guy had got nibbles on his ear or something from it one night, and as soon as we finished talking, I laid down in that rat round for my shoulder all the way down and off my wrist. And about a third of a second later I was sitting back up again and my eyes wide open and heart pounding like that. But afterwards, you learned when you got to Vietnam that very often throughout the night you'd wake up and these rats would be sleeping on your chest and scurrying off and soon as you moved, I think because it was probably warmer there and they would crawl up and lay on you. I 00:41:00don't remember what one guy got bit, but I remember oh yeah, when we were in Vietnam and I think only because he had been eating some cookies or something in his rack and the rat came in there to eat him and he rolled on top of him. But other than that, he just didn't bother us, other than they were there. But anyhow that's kind of how it was. And in Subic Bay, they said they were brand new Quonset huts. And then years ago, I forget what it was '98, 1998, something like that the U.S. closed that, that naval base. And now if you see pictures of the same Quonset hut, you can see how nature's taking them over. There's trees growing through the blacktop. Looks like the scene, you know, out of an old 00:42:00jungle. The same Quonset huts that were brand new when we were there. Times do change.

ROWELL: Did you interact with any Filipino civilians while you were in the Philippines?

HOFFMAN: No, we really didn't. We really just did our job doing our thing. There were some around that when we went on some of our training that they were around to assist us and things, as far as things to watch out for and you know, different types of traps that might be there and then things. But for the most part, we very, very rarely had contact with any of the Filipinos that were there. Also for like doing laundry and cutting hair. But the same was true once 00:43:00you got to Vietnam, that Dong Ha or in Phu Bai, they would cut hair for us, do laundry for us. The Vietnamese. But otherwise you really didn't have much contact with any of the people in any of those places.

ROWELL: So can you describe for me the trail training that you did while you were in the Philippines?

HOFFMAN: The training consisted of trying to teach every person that if they saw anything that looked the least bit out of the ordinary to make sure the paths that were down, that each person was aware of it. A good example was right ahead of me on the trail was the sergeant from Seattle, Washington. And here they had 00:44:00rigged a toilet up in a tree and he saw it, didn't say a thing to the rest of us, all of a sudden, this thing comes crashing down the hill. And one of the guys in charge of the trail jumped all over me, he said, didn't you see that crazy thing up in the tree? [Inaudible] it's out of the ordinary. You have to let every person know or if there's a wire across the trail that could be set for, with a landmine in there or something. Everybody has to know where that wire is exactly so they can step over it. You know, any little thing just doesn't seem right. You know, maybe it isn't anything, but you don't want to 00:45:00chance it. Make sure everybody keep passing that word on down the line as people got there that they are always aware of what what's going on, uh, at all times. Nobody's taken by surprise or nobody accidentally trips that way or so, yeah, it was a lot of that kind of kind of training.

ROWELL: All right. So earlier you spoke a little bit about landing in Vietnam. Can you tell me more about that?

HOFFMAN: Sure. We, uh, we went up, uh, I want to say [Chu Lai?] River, I'm not sure. But it's from the South China Sea, inland a ways on the river. Which was a little, I don't know whatcha call, nerve wracking maybe, because we're all in 00:46:00this line of of landing craft boats and helicopters are flying back and forth along the river and that making sure that nobody attacks you while you're coming in and things. And here we are, you know, fresh from the States. We don't know anything about anything. And 90, I would guess, 95, 90% of us had never seen combat before. And so we ended up going up this long river and at the end they dropped the front down on the landing craft on you and you exit the thing. And I remember stepping my foot off the landing craft and onto the soil of Vietnam and looking down and seeing that foot down there and thinking now is when you better remember everything you were taught. This is for real. And so then they had us 00:47:00on part of the perimeter of the base there at Dong Ha, which is a very, very large base, airport and runways and and a place where they had the hospitals and other things. So it was a large base. We, our unit was part of the perimeter there for a few days before we started our first operation. But it, uh, that first night there, especially when they were shooting mortars off and things. Mortar, when it goes off and it leaves the barrel or the tube, causes this kind of a suction sound as the air rushes back into the tube and every time they shot one, it's like sucks the wind right out of you, you're so nervous for being 00:48:00there. But eventually everybody, you know, after a while you calmed down and everybody starts doing their job. But the first the first few days are pretty nerve wracking. You're hoping that you're aren't going to get hit. And, you know, if you do would you panic or what, you'll freeze up and whether you do your job or what, you know, nobody's been tested under fire before. So so we we were there at camp at Dong Ha for, I think three or four days. And then we started our first operation called Chinook, which was further south, still north of Hue, the old imperial capital. It was about 50 miles south of, uh, of Dong 00:49:00Ha. And it took us, I think it was about 3 hours to go that 50 miles, because you had to have people out with the detectors sweeping for mines and looking for traps along the side of the road and had people off to each of your flanks, also looking for the enemies that, you know, and all of a sudden end up in an ambush. So it's pretty slow travel, but eventually we got down to where we were going to set up for this operation. It just just a big empty field. And we turned off the road, off the highway, and as soon as we did, I was in about the fifth truck. It 00:50:00was full of ammunition for these Howitzers, these big Howitzers, and the very first vehicle ran across a mine as a three quarter ton truck and blew the engine right out of the front of it. It blew it up on about a 45 degree angle from where I was sitting and you see the whole engine up there. And then it slowly stopped and it comes back again down to earth. But yeah, I think the driver was killed and one of the other guys was injured pretty good. But the third guy he seemed to be in pretty good shape in spite of it all. But then the next truck in line pushed that one off to the side into the ditch, and we continued going on into the field area where we could set up the big guns and dig our foxholes and 00:51:00do all the things that we had to get done real quick. This was a two week operation. At least that's what they told us to start with. So you had the clothes on your back and you had one change of clothes with you, and it was a nice sunny day we got there and not too hot. And so we started filling sandbags and building bunkers that we needed and things. And after about two days or three days, it started to rain. And slowly, the two weeks turned into three weeks and into a month and two months. And we finally got out of there after about eight days or something like that, short of three months at which it rained almost constantly, 40, I think it was 47 days that either rained or 00:52:00drizzled while we were out there. So people were getting, we were losing more people from things like immersion foot where, uh, with your feet being wet or your hands being wet for so long that they wrinkle up like much like when you're in a bathtub, when they'd wrinkle up hard enough that the skin starts to separate from the muscles and becomes very painful. And so we ended up losing guys that way, to have them try to dry out their feet enough that it goes away, that they can go back out in the field again. And of course, you're out there in the field a lot and people's teeth start rotting and clothes start rotting off you. With the two changes that you had, you could just hardly touch your 00:53:00clothes. And you do have a hole in them already that were worn so thin. And eventually we got a new set of clothes out there. And when you make these clothes, they starch them at the same time so you have to almost push your leg through to separate the starch. And we thought we were going to we were going to our senior prom or junior prom or something the way we felt all dressed up in these new clothes, but it didn't take more than a couple hours and you were back wet again and had the clay hanging from your knees on down about a one inch [play?] because everything in that field eventually gets plowed under from the trucks and people walking on it and everything else that it's just a soupy clay field. And you always had about an inch of clay hanging on you and on your 00:54:00clothes and on your boots. But so anyhow, that's where we were. The reason they'd started that operation was to stop the enemy the Vietnamese, I'm sorry, the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese Army from coming out of the mountains on the western side of Vietnam, traveling to the coast and stealing the rice from the villages over there to feed the troops, their troops. So we were like a blocking force that stopped them from being able to do that. They were not happy that we were there. There were some nights where it got really hairy. Shortly 00:55:00after we got there, the one night they dumped some 400 rockets, not rockets, mortars, in our position. I ended up being in my foxhole that night and with the rain, by the time I crawled out, I think I had about eight inches of water with me in that hole. I put one fist on top of the other and stuck my thumb up and the water was up to the top knuckle there. And you get out of there at about four in the morning with the wind blowing and you swear it's going to snow over there. It's not as warm some nights as they claim it is. But, uh, so that one time, another time I woke up in the morning and the rain had gotten on my hands all night and they were so wrinkled up I couldn't open them for the week. I had little tiny white pills the medic gave me. But then he said, you know, 00:56:00Christmas, we were all going to get a nice hot turkey dinner. Well, I'm still waiting for ours. They must have missed our unit that year. And it seemed to me I had one can of ham and lima bean that day which was just real exciting but anyhow, somehow we lived through it. And sometimes you wonder how when you're wet like that all the time and and it's such a lack of sleep. I think we figured while we were in Vietnam, we probably averaged about 4 hours at night and all that all the time I was in Vietnam by the time I left there, I had lost 25 pounds either because of having these C-rations where you get two boxes and 00:57:00stretch them over three meals or because they are when it gets hot, very hot and very humid, 110 degrees, sometimes even higher and 80, 90% humidity. And then you have, of course, your helmet on, your flak jacket, your pack, your radio and humping through this elephant grass, which is 6 to 12 foot high. And that, of course, it traps all the heat in it. And yeah, it's a good way to lose weight over there.

ROWELL: All right. So for the sake of the recorder's time left here, I think we can take a very short break. And then the segment. So this ends segment one of the interview with Ronald Hoffman on March 15th, 2021. All right. This begins 00:58:00segment two of the interview with Ronald Hoffman on March 15th, 2021. So we were talking about Operation Chinook. Can you remind me what unit you were in at this time?

HOFFMAN: I was with Charlie Battery, first Battalion, 13th Marines, and which was the artillery unit. And we were attached to the third Battalion, 26th Marines, which was the infantry. Um, infantry unit means four companies and in each of them had a forward observer team with them whenever they would go out into the field. And then Charlie Battery is the one that had the the six 105 Howitzers. And when we would be out in the field, those are the ones that we 00:59:00would call in. They helped out the infantry when they got in trouble.

ROWELL: So can you tell me a bit more about your duties in Battery C during Chinook?

HOFFMAN: Well, mostly it was either going out in the field or just routine things. We really, you know, didn't do a whole lot when you're back in the battery if you're not shooting for for a unit or something, you're always trying to improve your area, whether it's building better bunkers or a couple of times we moved from one location to another and [inaudible] you're starting all over again, building stuff. But yeah, there's a lot of filling sandbags and and 01:00:00digging holes and just about anything that where you're needed. But, and to help out the wire men when they need it or stringing wire for the guns. When you're out in the field [inaudible] routine and you call back to the battery and say, you you're I need some firepower out here, it goes to what they call the Fire Direction Center, which is a large bunker and had three or four guys in it I think that each had a table with a map on it and then a clear plastic over it. And so when we would call in, they could take a grease pen and mark where we were, where the enemy was. And so they knew which direction to be shooting. And 01:01:00then they'd look it up in some books to see what kinda angle, how high they had to reach that barrel of those howitzers to get out there and things like that. Now, of course, it's all done with computers, but back then in '66 we didn't have any computers. And so, uh, these guys would would do that. So that big bunker had to be built right away so that they could start receiving messages. And you had your own foxhole to take care of and just a whole lot of stuff. And from that Fire Direction Center, I was going to say, out to the guns there were wires laid on the ground and they had phones at the guns so once the the fire direction people got done plotting it they would pick up their phone in the Fire 01:02:00Direction Center and call out to the guns and give them the information they need to shoot and hit the target. So sometimes you'd be out there helping, helping them with those wires got broken or anything. Uh, I don't know when you weren't out in the field, and weren't out with the infantry most of your time was just almost got to be a job, a day to day sort of thing, though. So different things that needed to be done.

ROWELL: Can you describe for me what your experience of being out in the field was like?

HOFFMAN: A lot, a lot of walking.[Laughs] That was number one thing. You're always walking. You're always trying to stay spaced far enough apart that if one 01:03:00does trip some sort of a trap, a grenade that had been booby trapped, that it wouldn't kill a bunch of you. You know, you want to keep distance between all these so you always kind of keeping an eye on not getting too close to the guy ahead of you. As long as you could see him, you you're probably close enough. And we would get into all different terrains, whether it be in the rice paddies or in the jungles. I remember one time we were out in the jungle. I was up there at Khe Sanh and we went down into this ravine and we had no idea where we were. And so the scout on the forward observer team and myself and the captain from 01:04:00the infantry unit got together and we each looked at the map trying to figure out where we were. We each had a little different spot, and so we call in a round, an illumination round so we could watch to see where it burst in the air. So we'd know exactly where we were after the third try and we still weren't didn't know we decided we would just keep keep chugging along and eventually we would find some some landmarks, some hill or something that would look familiar again and we would again know where we were. But it's not a nice feeling not knowing because there are also guys back in the headquarters area, they're keeping track of where everybody is so that there's somebody spots somebody out there and you want to call in a round you want to be sure that it's the enemy 01:05:00and not friendly, friendly people out there. And of course, if you're just wandering around and they don't know where you are, it's a little hard for them to say you know, go ahead and shoot or don't shoot on these people. So but [inaudble] say you walk around, you don't know where the enemy is at all. They could be hiding in trees. They would have holes dug in the ground with that were covered up with leaves and things that they could pop up just enough to get their barrel of a rifle out, take a shot or two or two and go back under there, and you could never find them. So at any time, anybody could just drop, could get hit and you probably don't even know where that round came from so that way it became kind of nerve racking.

ROWELL: So if you care to, could you discuss your impressions of, you know, 01:06:00either the Viet Cong or the NVA kind of how would you characterize them?

HOFFMAN: Oh, well, they were certainly smart enough people, very clever people that they knew how to set these traps, that we wouldn't know whether they're there yet. They would, even if it would be a different group coming through, you know, they might have two or three rocks piled up along side the trail and that would indicate so much further down the trail is this trap or a branch they would have stuck a certain way and they could interpret these signs. You know, they lived out there in those jungles. They understood the jungle so much better than we did or anything we would leave behind empty C-ration can or something 01:07:00they would find a way of using that against us somehow, whether it was to put it hide it in a bush, take a grenade, pull the pin out of the granade, tie a wire on it, stick it in that can so as soon as it comes out of that can it'll explode. And then you run the wire across the trail. If you don't see it and you trip it, you pull that out and away you go. But, you know, so little things like that or of course, a lot of a lot of the guys smoked and they would also be able to tell where we were going just from the cigaret butts laying around and things, you know. They were very, very clever people, the same with bringing our supplies down to the Ho Chi Minh Trail. They oftentimes had just taken bicycles 01:08:00and welded a pipe across the handle so they could have one hand way out steering a little bit. And they load that bike all full of stuff and they walk along side of it, taking it down these trails. It's it's just a simple bicycle. So, yeah, you didn't want to underestimate them, that's for sure. They were they were very, very clever people and and they really did not want us there. And they were. They had more of a reason, I think, to fight against us than we did to fight against them. Just that they hated us so much for being there.

ROWELL: Did you have much interaction with Vietnamese friendly soldiers, for example, combined action companies?

HOFFMAN: I personally did not. No, no. I know we had special units that worked very closely with them. But I, I personally didn't have much at all. I mean, we would see the differing units once in a while if we were on some trucks, you know, going someplace, it could be their trucks coming back up the other way and you waved to each other or whatever. But we really didn't have any interpersonal contact with them.

ROWELL: If you care to. Could you discuss the practice of counting bodies in Vietnam?

HOFFMAN: That, from what I've been told was part of, part of, Secretary of State 01:10:00Robert McNamara's philosophy is, he was with the auto industry, I believe it was Ford auto. And his philosophy is if you outproduce your competition, then you're the winner. And so I believe his whole idea was if we were to kill the enemy in such numbers, they would have to give up. They'd have to surrender. And so they wanted to know every person that we could kill. And in doing so, that required sometimes that some of the guys would have to dig up graves, check the body over to see if it has holes in it from shrapnel or something like that, or if it 01:11:00looked like somebody had just naturally died, or if it had a uniform on that we could add to the count. And, yeah, they were always wanting to know what the count is, how many that each unit was responsible for. And maybe it also gave him some way of knowing what units were out there by the clothes on you know that they found on these bodies also probably gave them an idea how many people were out there. But the count was very accurate in the way that so often you assume somebody was killed but you couldn't find a body. There was enough blood in a certain area or whatever you just know that anybody who lost that much had 01:12:00to have died. But the enemy that dragged away the body or the person died later on. And so how do you count those people? You know, so unless you physically had a body there, it is pretty hard to get any kind of a real accurate number in doing that. I don't know that that was ever done in any other war before or since. But I was told that was Robert McNamara's idea of of keeping score sort of.

ROWELL: And how did you feel about that?

HOFFMAN: It was a different war than I than I recall growing up and you'd see them on TV and stuff, you know? It wasn't counting bodies. It was taking, uh, 01:13:00pushing the front lines always back. And what was behind your line was yours and you held it where over there it was counting bodies. It was take this hill or this area. And once you take it, you leave it and a year later, you come back and do it all over again. And whether that was part of the counting those bodies saying hey, we if get out of there for a while they'll come back, and we can go back and get a lot more bodies again. I don't I don't know. I wasn't up in the ranks to understand that whole the whole philosophy of the body count. So it was something they wanted us to do. And so it was something you did.

ROWELL: Is there anything else that you'd like to discuss about Operation Chinook?

HOFFMAN: I don't think so, other than they say it did last a long time, almost 01:14:00three months. By the time we left there, the Seabees were already building a mess hall and showers and things like that. And it was turned into a camp and it was called Camp Evans, which was named after Paul Evans, the first Marine that was killed on that operation. And it's my understanding that eventually the Army used it, as, with a runway, they put in and other things. But for us, it was just an operation laying out there in the mud. But it eventually became more of a base. But I was never there afterwards just to see that.

ROWELL: Mm Hmm. And when did your involvement with Chinook end?

HOFFMAN: It was in in March of '67 that we finally pulled out of there and went 01:15:00from there down to Phu Bai, which was south of Hue, the old imperial capital of Hue. And we spent a few months there and that was a regular base, if you want to call anything a base where we had more permanent buildings that the Seabees had built. Basically, it was a building on a plywood platform and then plywood walls four foot high and a top four foot wood screen and a metal corrugated roof on the things. And then we had bunkers outside of the doors. So it's a door on the 01:16:00front door and a door on the back and certainly was much, much nicer. I remember one of the guys talking about when we first got there, we just left Chinook and got to Phu Bai that a couple of them decided to go to the mess hall and get something to eat right away. And they said they got in there and here all the guys in there have these nice, clean uniforms on and here theirs are nothing but rags hanging on them. Dirty, filthy hadn't showered or bathed in you know in a couple of months, stunk to high heaven. And they said, you wouldn't believe it he said, we got in there and it was like the parting of the Red Sea. He said, all of these guys with their clean uniforms they all stepped aside and let us go to the front of the line. You know, real respect for for your fellow Marine and 01:17:00stuff, pretty darn nice. So, but yeah, at least the once we were in Phu Bai we could take showers again. And at night sometimes they would hit us with the rockets or hit us with mortars and and blow up some of the helicopters and other things. But then we'd still have to go out on patrols, of course. But it was much, much better than when we were on Chinook. We had a couple of people come from the USO, uh, to entertain us there. And just I don't even remember the one, but it was Mike, Mike, I think it was the guy from Little House on the Prairie. 01:18:00Anyways, his sister and his dad came. They played some music for us and things. And, but, yeah, we were just kind of short lived, three months or so. And from there we left there and went back up past Hue past the area where Chinook was up to Dong Ha and then headed west and ended up at Khe Sanh. Mhm. And that's where we ended up spending the last of our time up there. We were there for what they call the hill battles, the some of the different operations. But we were gone, the original guys from the battery were gone by the time Tet Offense hit and where Khe Sanh got hit so bad. So we were already home in the States by that time.

ROWELL: Mm Hmm. So can you tell me a little bit before we move Khe Sanh about kind of how your day to day life changed when you were in Phu Bai from when you were in Chinook and what the weather was like, that kind of thing.

HOFFMAN: Well, you know, weather, finally it stopped raining about time we got to Phu Bai. And there the ground was more sand. And so you didn't have this muddy clay hanging on you all the time. And uh,like I say showers, the sun came out and just to be in your hut, on your rack and let the nice, warm breeze flow over your body. You know, you think you're on vacation or something [inaudible], but, uh, and you've been building the bunkers, you know, using this nice clean 01:20:00sand versus this sloppy clay that [inaudible] bunker was so much nicer and just everythng was a whole lot nicer looking and seemed more relaxed even though like you say, at times it could get pretty hairy there. But it was, it felt, it felt really good just to be there.

ROWELL: Mhm. And um, did you apply your kind of construction and carpentry knowledge to making those bunkers?

HOFFMAN: And not there. Up once we got to Khe Sanh I did. Yeah, they also knew that I like to paint and stuff. And so whenever there was a sign that needed to be painted, somebody would find me some paint and a brush, and an odd ball piece of board laying around and I would paint something on it, whether it was just 01:21:00saying com tent or com section or something or whatever. But when I got we got up to Khe Sanh and then we had to go more underground because getting hit so much and things up there. And I designed the bunker there that we took the bulldozer and we dug it down about eight feet, a big hole in the ground. And then we took the old ammo boxes where the 105 howitzers rounds came in and we would fill those with clay. Once you get back to Khe Sanh it was all red clay again. And we fill them with red clay and we'd use them like big blocks and built the bunker that way out a bit and built some laminated beams, tore the boxes apart, made laminated beams to help hold up the roof on it and made a 01:22:00couple of boxes that acted as air vents for getting fresh air down in the bunker. Five of us slept down in that one and had it designed it so if somebody dropped a grenade in there it would hit the bottom of the air vent and roll away from the bunker instead of rolling into the bunker or just staying right close to the surface there to where it would certainly kill some of us. So, you know, there, uh, they would rely on me once in a while to break out the old hammer and things. As a matter of fact, one time while I was there, I would always be saving nails. I would always be tearing ammo boxes apart because I always needed to straighten out some nails that needed nails for something the other. And when 01:23:00I went on R&R, my ma had sent me a box or a can with cookies in it. She would always take take a 2 pound coffee can, fill it with coffee, ah, and fill it with cookies and popcorn. And that way the popcorn kept the cookies from breaking and you could also eat popcorn. So anyway, as this can came about the day I left for R&R and when I got back I saw it there. I picked it up and I could hear a rattle inside of it. And I opened and it was half full of nails. And the guy said, well, what would Ron would do if he was here? He would say, go ahead and eat them before they get stale. So they ate them and then they saved all these nails and put it in the can.[Laughs] I remember writing home and telling my ma about 01:24:00the guys really liked the cookies. I didn't tell her I didn't get any out of that batch, but so yeah, it seemed like I was always building something or no other in between times.

ROWELL: So do you recall when you moved from Phu Bai to Khe Sanh?

HOFFMAN: That was in June or July. I'm sorry. Uh, when the heck was that? I would guess, so let me think, let me think, probably June middle of June or so that we left Phu Bai and [inaudible]. What's that? '67, yes. And yeah, we got there about midday. Actually I'm just looking at a piece of paper I got laid 01:25:00here June, June 12th, '67 is when we left left Phu Bai and took a couple days for us to get up there. And, and uh then we took a different, another unit's place up there. They moved on to another operation or something and we moved into their area and then started building our own bunkers and improving what we could out of the thing. Up there our Fire Direction Center was an old French bunker, but when the French were there, they had built concrete ones and so it was still there. And so we used it for the fire direction for plotting where the rounds go again and things. Again, we got up there and then it didn't take too 01:26:00long for the rain to start again and for the clay to be hanging from our knees on down again. It's very red clay. And when when it wasn't rainy and it was dry the stuff would blow around as well. And it would just embed itself into everything. Everything had red tinge to it, even in the paint on vehicles. It wouldn't wash off of there. So I must have a fair amount of acid or something in there as well. Definitely definitely knew it was red clay.

ROWELL: And....

HOFFMAN: Up there to it the area around Khe Sanh had been sprayed very heavily with Agent Orange because of the thick foliage that they wanted to kill off. And 01:27:00so we were exposed to a lot of Agent Orange up in that area.

ROWELL: And you knew that at the time?

HOFFMAN: Yes. We didn't know what was going to eventually do to all of us. But yes, before we went up there, they gave us a, the general area, thing about the area. You know, some areas with the elephant grass, a jungle with two and three canopies and that the area had been heavily sprayed with Agent Orange.

ROWELL: And do you feel that you've experienced any sort of aftereffects from that yourself?

HOFFMAN: Yes, I did. It wasn't until years later I had stage three prostate cancer, meaning that the cancer was already outside the prostate by the time 01:28:00they found it, presumed from Agent Orange. And then it came back at least once and they think maybe twice that they, I had to be, had to be treated a second and third time for it. But now, for the last, I don't know, ten years or so, it's been pretty good. Yeah. We've had other guys that I've kept in contact with from our unit over the years that have different types of cancers, who have died of cancers. You know, you would think maybe somebody would have asked the question [Coughs. Excuse me.] I would have asked the question that if it's killing all the foliage, what's it doing to the guys underneath it? Hmm. But it didn't. And I understand there's still a lot of lawsuits and things going on over there with the Vietnamese because it got into the rice paddies, into the rivers, into fish and a lot of, uh, children born with deformities and different 01:29:00things from it. So, yeah, it was very, very potent.

ROWELL: So what were your impressions of Khe Sanh? How is it similar or different to places that you'd been previously?

HOFFMAN: It was kind of a cross between Chinook and Phu Bai in the way that it was back to the old muddy sandbags, dirty old sandbags and, and rain and mud hanging on you. But they also did have a mess hall up there and some of those kind of things, you know, the runway and, so it was a little bit, little bit between the two of them. Although in the long run probably was closer to Chinook 01:30:00than it was to Phu Bai. They had a runway they would use for resupplying us with the food we needed or ammunition we needed. But they found that what they had to do was bring these planes in and slow them way down and push everything out the back and take off again without stopping. If they'd stopped immediately, the enemy would start dumping some mortars on it. Or we had a part of a field roped off and they would come over and drop the big skids full of food or whatever with parachutes on them and parachuted into this field for us. Because once it stopped, immediately, the enemy would take advantage of it. That's why we were 01:31:00really lucky when we did finally leave Khe Sanh that it was a very foggy, drizzly sort of day and a big helicopter, helicopter, came in and with mail and a few other things. And soon as he landed and unloaded, forty some of us that were bound to get out of there, to head back to the States, hopped on board there, and he took off so fast a couple of guys almost fell off the back of it because he didn't want to stay a second longer than he had to on the ground. But yeah, it was only because that he had landed that day that we managed to climb on board and get out of there.

ROWELL: Mm. So you built a bar to serve beer at Khe Sanh?.

HOFFMAN: Yes, I did, out of the old ammo boxes and I had forgotten about that as 01:32:00I, uh, I built this little corner-like bar and then I took a blowtorch and went over the wood and made to look like it was stained. And then I took a plastic bunker cover, like just a big camouflaged plastic sheet and put it on the top of the bar piece and rolled up the edges so it was padded where you put your arms, your arm rest, and then someone found a big parachute and they strung that across the ceilin so we had almost like our own little barroom in the thing. And when we could get beer up there, then we would be allotted two cans a day. They certainly didn't want too many people up there to be too drunk in case they ever 01:33:00got hit. So two a day is the most you could have.

ROWELL: I know there's been accounts of drug use, things like that in Vietnam. Did you ever encounter any of that yourself ?

HOFFMAN: I'm sorry I missed that.

ROWELL: I said, you know, we've heard some accounts of drug use, things like that in Vietnam. Did you ever see that?

HOFFMAN: I remember them talking about these funny cigarets. Mm hmm. I didn't realize it was marijuana. The Vietnamese would roll their own. And the the older Vietnamese women, particularly, would always have it kind of hanging off of their lower lip. And I just thought well it was a rolled cigaret. I guess I didn't understand that that was marijuana at the time. I'm probably glad I didn't know it was marijuana at the time. Who knows what I would have gotten into or not over there? But other than that, I cannot say that we really, I 01:34:00don't remember any of our guys ever with marijuana, drug use like that or, uh. And we never really got any area where there was like in Danang. I think there were regular taverns and things. You know, we never got into those kind of areas. So there wasn't the heavy drinking and things like that either. I can ever recall.

ROWELL: Mhm. So what was your involvement in Operation Crockett?

HOFFMAN: It was those operations were, were meant to clean out certain areas and things, but it was there it was going out with forward observer teams. And when and if they needed help, we'd, we'd be there again to go in the rounds. Um, I 01:35:00remember one particular day we had stopped and it wasn't for the night, but there was an area almost look like an island in a mound in the middle of this river. And the captain thought it might be a good place for the enemy to be sitting. And we were going to be going around it in the river. So he told me to throw some rounds in there first. And when I did, I called for a battery of rounds with six rounds. And when they hit in there, the rounds, when they exploded the shrapnel from them went flying past us, we were just that close to the damn thing. Everybody was hitting the dirt to try to avoid it. And I 01:36:00remember looking at the captain and with his eyes were big and he's thinking to himself, you know, cease fire, cease fire. But he doesn't say it out loud and I don't say it at all. I just key the handset and said repeat fire and they had another six rounds on the way. So [Laughs] but I guess there were some guys in there after off because a little while later we entered the river and went around, went around the river, went around them to seal in the river and by the time we got finally got out of there everybody filled their canteens because the water was flowing toward us. So we had fresh water. We got out and we walked about 15 feet along the bank and here is one guy laying face down, half in the water and half on the bank. And of course, everyone then immediately dump their 01:37:00canteens out. Nobody wanted to drink water after it just ran over somebody's body like that. But I think about that guy yet to this day, the guy I had just just blown up [inaudible] you know, a couple of minutes earlier. And yeah, I think about him alot. He was somebody's brother or somebody's husband, certainly somebody's son. But, you don't think about that at the time. You think about it being it's the enemy. You try to think about the enemy as something less than human or it would really drive you crazy to consider, you know, what this person really was? You know, he was a son to somebody and, you know, or daughter that's a lot of them were, were women. They're too in the NVA. So yeah, you tried not 01:38:00to rationalize that kind of thing, but rather to think of him as something subhuman or you go crazy. But that particular guy, I think about some days.

ROWELL: Can you tell me about your role in Operation Ardmore, which was, I think, after Crockett?

HOFFMAN: Those were really pretty much the same it's just that they took place in different areas, but other than that, they were where the same. One was kind of southeast, I believe it was of Khe Sanh. And the other was more west of Khe Sanh. But it was really doing the same sort of thing, just going out on patrols, looking for the enemy and, you know, trying to make contact with the enemy and destroy them. But I'm sure there were bigger reasons for why we were out there 01:39:00doing that kind of thing. Well, it was to help stop this from doing this or something. But every guy doesn't understand, you know, the big logistics of why we're doing the thing other than we know, then we know today were going to go out in this area and patrol this area and tomorrow they want it's over here for a couple of days. They wanted us in this area. And so you just go and do it. But exactly why you were on all these different ones is really, I really don't know.

ROWELL: And you were promoted to Lance Corporal around this time, right?

HOFFMAN: Yes. Yeah. They, they didn't do much promoting to the guys who are going to be in for two years. They give them their basic promotions and the ones that probably were going to hang around and make a career of it and stuff, well, 01:40:00then it's, you know, worthwhile promoting them higher up and things. So actually the whole com section, very few of us got much in the way of promotions, but that just kind of the way it was.

ROWELL: How did you feel about that? At the time?

HOFFMAN: It was just, it didn't make much difference one way or the other. I knew it was only going to be a matter of a few months after I got out, came back to the States and I was going to be out of the service. So whether I was a corporal or a lance corporal, that didn't make much difference.

ROWELL: Mhmm. And you mentioned taking R and R. Can you tell me about that?

HOFFMAN: I had a friend of mine, uh, from Ohio went R and R to Kuala Lumpur, capital of Malaysia. And uh, 5 days, I believe it was, we got to just to, to sit 01:41:00around a motel and, or we found a taxi cab driver, nice guy. He took us around to a lot of different places, even brought us over to his house to show us his house. And of course back then, and I don't know how it is now, but there is still the cattle walking the streets and there's still the sacred cows, cars gotta look out for them. They roamed wherever they felt like going. But since then, I understand, Kuala Lumpur has turned into one of the real high tech areas like Silicon Valley and stuff that has really advanced long, long ways compared to the way it was when we were there. But it was just a matter of getting away 01:42:00from the war for a short time. Letting you clear your mind a little bit and things before you had to go back again. Some guys got a couple of R and Rs like that. Some, like myself, got one. It was more when you put in for it and then you could get it. So it varied a little bit. I understand that now the services done away with that to make shorter tours instead of being a 13 months tour, it's a 6 month tour and that way they don't have the R and R. And that can be good and bad. I think what happened a lot, not a lot, but some, you know, married people, married guys would get in trouble over there with some girl or something on R and R or different trouble and things and this way eliminates all 01:43:00that kind of problem. A problem with going down to 6 months or so, is that it takes time to get acclimated to the whole situation of war and things. And, you know, you hardly, hardly get broken in and now you're already coming home. Where like in World War Two you were really in for the duration. So I guess cutting it back has it's good points and bad. But for us the fact that we were 6 months, uh, 13 months at a time overseas, that you have to get R and R and spend 5 days relaxing.

ROWELL: So you described Operation Crockett and Ardmore as kind of similar. 01:44:00Would you say the same of Operation Kingfisher?

HOFFMAN: Yeah, I would say so. Kingfisher was more over toward Con Thien and in that area. That's when the NVA were trying to wipe out everybody at Con Thien and they were getting hit all the time and all the time. And so that I think was a little bit bigger operation. But yeah, for guys like me, it was, you know, the same sort of thing. They flew myself and two companies from from Khe Sanh over back to Dong Ha. And then they drove us by truck up to close to the DMZ, and we worked our way from there down toward Con Thien, trying to figure out where they 01:45:00were getting hit from. And, after that we went, drove us back down to Dong Ha. I left there. What was that? One of the companies left and two more joined it and then they worked from Dong Ha up to Con Thien. And that's when I was on R and R in that second part there. And we had just gotten a new lieutenant and he [inaudible] for the forward observer team and it's radio operator and I understand he caught a direct mortar round. He was killed. I don't know what happened with his radio operator. I had never met either one of the guys, the lieutenant or the radio operator, but yeah, that probably would have been me if I hadn't been on R and R that day. But yeah, they were fresh, fresh from the 01:46:00States and, and didn't really know anybody in the battery yet you know. Mhm. They've only been there a few days.

ROWELL: So do you remember about the time that you left Operation Kingfisher?

HOFFMAN: Not off hand. I don't remember if that was if it was even still going on when we left or not. But I never went back over into that area afterwards, when we got back from R and R. When I get back from R and R, yeah, we only had a couple of days left before we headed home.

ROWELL: So when did your deployment to Vietnam end?

HOFFMAN: And that was on October, October, what, the 5th about, of '67. And I 01:47:00say that helicopter pulled us out of there, out Khe Sanh, and we took it all the way down to Da Nang. And there is where we turned in our gear, our rifles and things. And a day or so after that, we flew to I want to say Okinawa, I believe it was, for a day, a day or two there. And then from there, a commercial flight back to California. And there was really no debriefing or any kind of a transitional period from being in combat to walking the streets in the States. 01:48:00You know, it all took place in, you know, like about 4 or 5 days from one to the other, which I guess is not a very good deal to do. Even in the Bible, I think, it talked about the after battles that they had to be outside their village for 7 days or something like that, probably for that same reason, you know, because of post-traumatic stress and things that you don't want them back to the civilians too fast.

ROWELL: Can you kind of tell me more about the experience of leaving, how that made you feel?

HOFFMAN: Of course, really you know it's a joyful time. You're going back to the 01:49:00land of the living, as we said. The whole idea of getting out of there and not worrying about people shooting at you or mortars coming in on you. So it's a great feeling. But, yeah, when we, when we did and I got to California, I spent a couple of days there with a good friend of mine and his wife. And before I headed back home to Two Rivers, and then once I did get to Two Rivers, then it was a matter of 30 day leave. And then I went to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina for the last couple of months before my time was up in the service.

ROWELL: So what did you do at Camp Lejeune?

HOFFMAN: Just make-ready projects, just things that keep us busy. There were, I 01:50:00don't know, maybe 5 or 6 different types of radios. And every day they would march us over or to this building, and we'd take one particular type of radio and take it outside on the parade deck or the parking lot, as it were, and clean it all up, make sure that all the heads were good for where the connections were and stuff, it made radio contact with everybody else on the parking lot area and put it away. And 5 days, 6 days later, out comes that same radio and do it again. So why they didn't just to let us out early I don't know. But it was just, some of the guys got mess duty working in the mess halls and other things. But basically it was just, yeah, taking these radios and cleaning them up, put 01:51:00them away, take another one the again the next day and do the same. [Laughs] But yeah, very boring. Pretty boring.

ROWELL: You know, I imagine that was a big contrast from being in Vietnam to cleaning radios and...

HOFFMAN: Yes. Oh, that it was, that it was. And you knew it was going to work. It worked five days earlier, it's going to work again today.[Laughs]

ROWELL: So how did it feel being back in a civilian setting in the United States for you?

HOFFMAN: It was not like I thought it was going to be I guess. Here you you get out, you got a nice Marine Corps uniform and all the young ladies there were going to just love you for it. It turns out they all got married while you over 01:52:00there. Plus, I remember my dad saying, well now you put your uniform away and you put on your civilian clothes. And I thought, you mean put on my civilian clothes, but he was never in the war. But I think it was years later, it finally dawned on me what he was saying. There a lot of people that hate you over here for having been there. Don't make a spectacle of yourself. Get back in with society, you know, before you get in trouble or something. But, yeah, after all we did and stuff, there were definitely a lot of people that did not like us for being there. A lot of the people in the United States did not like it that we were there. And that was part of the North Vietnamese whole strategy was to turn 01:53:00the people against the soldiers and against the politicians. You know, [inaudible] they aren't against the people of the United States, just against the ones that want to kill us and the politicians. So it's pretty soon the civilians really kind of turned on us. So so I got no parades when we get home.

ROWELL: So that was pretty different then than you were expecting.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was so, you know, you see how when the guys came home from World War Two and how they were treated and things and we were just supposed to, you know, hide in the woodwork, not cause any problems, not be seen. Hmm. But anyway, yeah, as far as for myself, I was, I guess, treated all 01:54:00right. Again, I was from a little town. We had one sergeant from Seattle. He claims he was spit on in the airport. Uh, but we had read, you know, things that other people had done in the newspapers and stuff. You know, a little baby shooting, some soldier really gets off the plane or something like that. And, you know, crazy things like that, whether they were true or not, certainly can work on someone's psyche.

ROWELL: Can you say a little more about something you said earlier about the North Vietnamese perhaps having a hand in the antiwar sentiment in the United States, in your opinion?

HOFFMAN: Well, you know, they were over here the, the North Vietnamese and the Ho Chi Minh had gone to school in the States for a while, but their, uh, the 01:55:00strategy was to cause a wedge between us. They would, uh, use psychological warfare if that's what you want to call it with the idea that for a great Goliath of the United States to be, uh, over there destroying their people, their country. And here all they had were just, you know, the basic tools and stuff to fight us with. Well, they had AK 47s. They had, they were equipped pretty damn good over there. But as long as the people back here heard that, they believed those kind of things. Um, and of course, the, our own news agency was terrible over there. They, uh, they had some 300 reporters and photographers 01:56:00go through the Saigon bureau while the war was going on. Most of them, the vast majority of them, never had taken a picture before or did any kind of reporting, let alone war type reporting. And a lot of the stories were just made up while they were sitting at the bar across from the hotels in Saigon. And it was things they had heard about the war, and most of them never went out in the field at all. And so what they told the people back home is what they believed. You know, uh, one reporter mentioned something about that uh, how did you say that, that these young guys had no comprehension of what was going on and they're only over 01:57:00there a couple of days and they're reporting how the war is going on. You know, they don't know where the restroom is, let alone how the overall picture of a war is going on. And yet they could report that back home. And the networks accepted this kind of thing, you know. So, yeah, there was so much misinformation that came back to the people back home that it's no wonder they were really upset with us and things.

ROWELL: Mhm. So can you tell me what date you were discharged from the military?

HOFFMAN: On January 26th of 1968.

ROWELL: Okay. So what did you do after military service?

HOFFMAN: Then I went back to work for my dad. I finished that apprenticeship, 01:58:00carpenter apprenticeship, and I worked as journeyman carpenter for a number of years until until my dad retired and then he sold the business out to his foreman and a couple of his brothers. And so I started my own remodeling company and did that for, I guess, about four years. And then I went to work for the Weyerhaeuser Company in Manitowoc. I was in charge eventually of their design department. They make corrugated boxes and displays. And so, uh, I designed the boxes for just about any kind of product you can think of. And did that until I was 50. And then I left there and started my own consulting business doing the 01:59:00same thing for other companies around the state. And 55 is when is when I came down with this prostate cancer that we talked about earlier. And that wiped me out as far as being able to travel for business and things. You're just too fatigued from the radiation and everything else and so at 55 I was kind of forced to retire and never went back to work.

ROWELL: Mm. Could you spell the name of the company that you worked for in Manitowoc?

HOFFMAN: Weyerhaeuser Company? It's W e y e r h a e u s e r. Okay. They're headquartered in Federal Way, Washington.

ROWELL: All right. Thank you. So do you care to talk about your family life after you left the military? What's that? Your family life? What was that like?

HOFFMAN: Yes. Then I, I guess when I was still working as an apprentice carpenter when I got married and had two children. My daughter, first born in '79, I'm sorry, in '72. And then a son. He was born in in '76. And like an awful lot of us that were in the service, I guess, that marriage ended in a divorce and then years later, just about that same time that I got prostate cancer, I met my current wife and, and now we live in Green Bay.

ROWELL: So you mentioned that you feel some element of your service kind of had 02:01:00a hand in your separation with your first wife.

HOFFMAN: I, yeah, I think so. I mean, there is a lot of arguing and a lot of drinking and, yeah, they weren't dealing right away with anything close to post-traumatic stress or anything. And I would think anybody that was in any kind of combat, has got some and I certainly know I, you know my share of it, that trying to fit back into civilian life again and nothing ever seemed right, you know.

ROWELL: Mhm. Were you ever able to kind of address some of that trauma.

HOFFMAN: Yeah I'd gotten to seek counseling a few times and probably between that and just getting older you just mellow out more.

ROWELL: Mm. And you've written a book about your service in Vietnam titled: To 02:02:00Hear Silence. And what motivated you to write the book?

HOFFMAN: Back in 2010 my current wife and I went back to Vietnam with a group called Vietnam Battlefield Tours. And there they take you to a lot of the different areas that the guys had been at, some of the bigger bases. And we got to Dong Ha, which was a very large base. And now the whole city is expanded to where there's absolutely no trace of the base anymore. And we got up to Khe Sanh and there, they had the North Vietnamese had built a pavilion like and and have 02:03:00different pictures and things in there of what the base looked like once upon a time. And we got to where Operation Chinook was. I asked him if we could get to that place. That was pretty hard to deal with. And in fact, on the book itself, on the front cover, it shows my back looking out into a field, and that's now all grown up. But that is where Chinook took place. That was pretty hard to deal with, but it did help to, you know, get rid of some of the ghosts, to help realize that the war is over. And, and it's a very beautiful country. And the people now are very friendly. And in fact, some Americans retire over there. So that is a nice place to to live. But anyhow, with the one tour guide we had from this Vietnam Battlefield Tours, I mentioned to him, I said, you know, we spent 02:04:00all this time on Chinook and, you know, we had a little piece of history here. We did a little something here, you know, and yet you cannot find anything that's on the Internet or anyplace. And so [inaudible] wanted to write a book about it and tell or tell your story. And I kind of laughed in the beginning part because I was never very good at English in high school. And, and here I have all my brothers and my sister all going to college, and I never went to college. And so I'm the one that ends up writing a book, but it took about four years to write it. Every so often I'd want to put it aside and say, well, that's far enough on it. And it was initially written for the guys from our battery from Charlie Battery. Uh, it's a way of remembering them and I've kept track of 02:05:00a few of them over the years, but other people that have read it now have told me that it gave them a chance to start talking to their family about what they did over there. They had it bottled up for so long and they said the book kind of gave them a starting point to talk. And so of finally getting some of that off of your chest, which I guess makes me feel pretty good. But, so it's been out there for a while and I guess it's sold about a thousand copies or something so far. But anyway, that's how it kind of came about.

ROWELL: Mmhmm. Let's pause here just for a moment to reset the recorder, and we'll come right back to this. And segment two of the interview with Ronald Hoffman on March 15th, 2021.

ROWELL: All right. This begins segment three of the interview with Ronald 02:06:00Hoffman on March 15th, 2021. So we were speaking about your book: To Hear Silence and what that process was like for you writing that book.

HOFFMAN: Well, it, uh, like I say, it took a long time to write. It again helped get some of the things out of my head and get it in black and white. And that way I can put it on the shelf and not think about it. It took a lot of research to do it because I wanted it to be as accurate as I could. I didn't want to make up parts or make it gory and stuff, you know, kind of a Hollywood sort of thing. I just wanted to tell how it was day to day and what we sort of did. And so while you're over there, they keep track of everything that kind of goes on and 02:07:00they call it the command chronologies. And those were always secret or confidential during the war, and now you can find them on the Internet. So I printed those all off and it gave me a stack of just under a foot high of paper. And it would have things in there like Kilo Company from 3/26 out on patrol today and tripped, uh, booby trap grenade or whatever. Two people were killed in one way. Well, then I'd go and, I go [inaudible] the Internet and I look on the Vietnam Wall for guys that were killed that day from the Marines. And I had one 02:08:00person do some research for me in Washington, DC, and he got the names of all of the guys that went over, uh, to Vietnam on that convoy of ships. And so then I would compare their serial numbers with guys that were on the Wall, and then they could find out who those two guys from our units were from the infantry unit or whatever units they were from. And so then I could put their names in the book and the ages that they were at the time they were killed. So it's a lot of bouncing back and forth between the command chronologies and all of these documents and all of these people's names on them and and the Internet. So it's a lot of bouncing around between those. And then I was going to kind of hang it up at the end of Chinook and call that it, and one of the guys I was with, his 02:09:00son also was a Marine afterwards. And and he kept writing me, nah, he said, you can't quit on it now. You got it going. He kept pushing me along and eventually I got the rest of it down there. But then I had a niece of mine. She was 50 years old. Unfortunately, she died since then, but she was an editor out, out in the DC area and she said she would look it over for me and try to give me some advice on this thing and try to keep it in some kind of order. Uh, and so between all the editing and things, it got to be a four year, four year project. But, but it's out there now and I'm glad I did it. And the guys I was, I was with over in Vietnam are also glad I did it. That our part was not lost in time, 02:10:00but there's still a record of it.

ROWELL: Mhm. So I'm actually going to take a moment here. The tape didn't stop, which I thought it would. So I'm just going to say again, this ends segment two of the interview with Ronald Hoffman on March 15th, 2021. Be right back. Okay. This begins segment three of the interview with Ronald Hoffman on March 15th, 2021. So you're speaking about the process of writing and being encouraged to keep writing and finish the book up.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, after I wrote about Chinook, I was pretty much ready to just say that's it. I had accomplished what I wanted to because, you know, Chinook was really where this band of guys that had never seen combat before, 02:11:00really were baptized into combat. We really learned what it was all about, what war is all about. So it, uh, really, could we start this over again, the second part. And so, [Talks to wife: Nan]

ROWELL: All right, there was a pause in the recording due to some background noise. But we're back now in segment three of the interview with Ronald Hoffman on March 15th, 2021. So, Ron, you were speaking about your book. Um.

HOFFMAN: Yeah, so I was kind of happy just to get through Chinook area and and that's where I was going to stop it. But I kept being encouraged to tell the 02:12:00whole story of us being over there. And and, uh, I'm glad I did. Now it's now, we've got the whole 13 months, you know, overseas, actually a little over 13 months. It's got to be 13 months, 8 days that we were gone overseas. One year, one month, one week and one day.

ROWELL: So you mentioned that your book kind of allowed some of your, some of your fellow veterans an opportunity to bond with their families and share their experience. Was that the case for you?

HOFFMAN: Uh, I think. Well, I shouldn't say that. I didn't know how much I shared before that with my kids. Even now, my daughter prefers not to read it. She's read a good part of it, but she just doesn't care for war in itself. But 02:13:00my son understands it and has read it and knows what we went through back when we were kids and that we were we were all pretty darn young back then, very impressionable age to be out there carrying a rifle, looking for someone to shoot at, you know. Matter of fact, we had one guy that joined us after we were at Khe Sanh, and it turns out later on he died when he was 64 or something like that. And I tried to trace back, you know, it turns out he was 16 years old at the time he was there. Pretty darn young to be fighting in the war.

ROWELL: And do you feel that your young age impacted your experience?

HOFFMAN: And I'm sure did you know it, at 20, 21 years old. Yeah. They like you at that age because you don't question things. So they tell you to jump, you jump, you know. And but but at that young age, it sticks with you all your life.

ROWELL: So could you talk about some of your involvement with veterans organizations?

HOFFMAN: After I got out, I thought about joining like the Vietnam Vets and things, but at that time there were a lot of guys in the organization that still wanted to dress up in the parades, like they'd just gotten out of the bush or something, you know, with their pearl handled pistols and the whole works. And I 02:15:00thought, ah, that's not for me. And so I didn't join anything for a long time. And then I finally joined the Disabled American Veterans Chapter 3 in Green Bay. And since then, I've been trying to do different things for them. We built a new meeting room or meeting house, as it were, that I designed the interior for them as far as the offices and all that in it. And and then we did some remodeling. And I mean, that's how the carpenter went back in and physically did the work on a lot of that part. But, you know, I, but that's really the only organization I ever belonged to, and, uh, which is probably enough. I know, like my dad always 02:16:00said, if you belong to an organization, you should be involved in the organization and do things. You know, too many people belong to an organization and they show up for a meeting and that's it. Or they don't even show for a meeting. They have their card in their wallet that says I'm a member, you know, but if you're going to join something, do something. And so I guess that was kind of always my philosophy as long as I'm going to belong, do something. So now I'm on the Finance Committee with the group and a few things like that. Or I, whenever our group Charlie Battery, the ones that I know of yet, 30 or so, whenever there's been a reunion, I'm the one that's always planned it. Or if somebody gives me a call and says do you remember, you know, John Blow or 02:17:00whatever, you know, I think he lived in Colorado. Then they expect me to go and find them, you know. So I get on Internet and start looking around to see if there's a way I could find out where these guys are at and stuff. But, uh, so that way I keep our unit Charlie Battery still intact. Ones I know, ones that are still living, I know at least half of them have died since since then. Since we came back. But but there's still quite a few that maybe 30 or so that I keep in contact with on pretty much a, I don't know, monthly basis or something. So it's it's been kind of fun doing it, watching them, you know, over the years too, getting married and having kids. And now their kids are having kids and and 02:18:00we keep getting older.

ROWELL: Mhm. So what does it mean for you to have such, you know, contact with so many people that you served with or who are also veterans?

HOFFMAN: It is in, I guess, a nice feeling in the way that maybe I can help them, help somebody somewhere or other along the way. Yeah, I've always taken pride in trying to do those kind of things and, if something comes up, they'll contact me and I'll get the word out to the others. And, yeah, it's just. And, you know, they feel sometimes like if I didn't do it, who the heck would? Nobody, you know. So I kind of feel obligated. On the other hand, you feel good that you can, that you are this spokesperson basically for the battery yet. And 02:19:00even though I wasn't an officer or anything, I still keep track of a few of the officers that were with us. Or they'll send an email too or something. I had one a number of years ago, one of our captains. There was a tornado not too far from here, and he's living down in Texas. He calls me up to see if I'm okay. I though that's pretty darn nice. You know, that somebody would do that from down there where they have the fires and everything else going on and he's calling me to make sure I'm okay. You know, so I was [inaudible] his book back then, but, so, yes, that way it's, it's kind of nice. Or even when there's some sad news, you know, the other day there's one guy who called me up to say so-and-so from the battery died. And so then I'll send an email out to everybody and let them know 02:20:00about it, things that we lost and other guy stuff. So.

ROWELL: How has the COVID 19 pandemic affected your kind of fellowship with these, with these guys, if it has?

HOFFMAN: Uh, I think we've still kept fairly good contact through it, so. One of the things I did, it wasn't just for them, uh, right when it started just about a year ago at this time, I made a pledge that every day for 100 days I would send them all an email. Uh, and not just them, other people that I knew too. And just a little there, a few paragraphs or two of encouragement. And then I attached three or four jokes at the end of it, and I did that for a hundred days. Uh, and a lot of them, you know, wrote back and said, hey, yeah, I'm enjoying these here, keep them coming and things. So again, makes you feel good 02:21:00that you're doing something to help somebody, you know. So we have had one small reunion in Wyoming, Jackson Hole, last summer. You know, we probably shouldn't have been traveling and stuff. We drove out there, but, uh, there were probably about six of us that got together for a little bit. They came from all over the country again. And, and so people still want to get together after all these years and now this summer or or this fall, maybe if things are better, maybe we'll still hold another one somewhere or the other. That's nothing fancy. Just, here we are let's get together and we'll go out to eat one night together. The 02:22:00whole group with the wives. And anotherwise just go do some sightseeing and things. But they they look forward to that. And I'm glad I can do that for them.

ROWELL: Mhm. So you mentioned being a part of, um, a disabled veterans organization, and you don't need to comment on this if you don't want to, but, um, have you had experiences with the VA and with kind of veterans benefits that are associated with your, um, kind of health journey?

HOFFMAN: Yes, yeah.

HOFFMAN: Yeah. With this prostate cancer from the Agent Orange. Yes. I had my, uh, all my medical stuff through the veterans, uh, through the VA. And I must say, for the vast majority of it, they've treated me very well. I I certainly certainly cannot complain. If it wasn't for them, I'd have a lot bigger bill 02:23:00sitting here with these knees I'm just having replaced now and and things. But they have they looked out for me pretty well.

ROWELL: And so can you talk about any maybe recognition you received for your service, awards or medals, that kind of thing?

HOFFMAN: Well, I don't really got too many different ones than a lot of the people did, although our unit did get the Presidential Unit Citation, which not too many did. And the Combat Action ribbon, you know, a lot, a lot of the units or a lot of the guys that went over to Vietnam never saw any combat if they were stationed in Saigon or they were in the administrative part, a lot of those that never, never been in combat, even though they were in Vietnam. And then just 02:24:00more of the other normal ones, Vietnam ribbons, things like that. I, uh, I never got a Purple Heart. One gunny sergeant asked me one time when he saw some cuts on my hand if I was going to get put in for a Purple Heart. And I told jim absolutely not. It was cut on elephant grass when I was out in the field. That was not caused by any type of wound inflicted by the vet, by the enemy. And I know he had gotten put in for Purple Heart because he banged his head on the top of the concrete bunker one time wanting to see what they were going be doing in there with plottingin the charts and stuff. So I said, no, no, no, I ain't going 02:25:00to get one for the [inaudible]. My idea is to come out at this place without any of those things. And I did. So all the fingers and toes. Unfortunately, it wasn't the enemy that got me. It was our own country that did with the Agent Orange. But you don't get medals for getting Agent Orange.

ROWELL: Right. Can you talk about that? How that how that makes you feel that you have some lasting effects, you know, from your service. But it's it's based on your your service to your country and not...

HOFFMAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it, in a way, you ought get something for it. I mean, you were wounded in combat by your own, by your own country, or you then show up until years later, but. So be it. It's just the way it's set up, I 02:26:00think. You can't give a ribbon for everything. [Laughs] I guess to the ones I feel bad about are the ones that that were killed from friendly fire and things like that over there that, you know, there was, it's a third of all the deaths were non-combat deaths over there. That's an awful lot of people,16, 16,000, something like that. They were killed in the truck accident or ended up getting some disease and died or from friendly fire or something other than from the enemy, from combat itself. So it wasn't just the enemy that could get you.

ROWELL: And did you see that yourself while you were over there?

HOFFMAN: I saw it one time. I shouldn't say I saw it, I heard it one time. When we were on Kingfisher and I would dig my foxhole and then I'd lay alongside of it at night and sleep on the grass and if we'd get hit I'd go inside the foxhole of course, but to fall asleep I would keep my radio up to my ear and I'd listen to the traffic going on there back and forth. And one unit would call then and wanted some mortar fire in an area. And the guy called back and said, be advised your one gun is shooting out. It isn't lined up with the other ones. And he called in another round and they said it's still shooting out. And the guy after it came back, to reduce the perspiration. And the next round he says, be advised 02:28:00we now have one friendly KIA. Jesus Christ. Who's going to explain that to the parents? So how do you explain that the guy didn't bother taking the time to say, hey, let's look at these guns. One of them isn't shooting where it should, one's shooting way off to the side or something, and, because it just does it reduce the perspiration. I thought, holy cow, now what do you do? But it happens. Strange things happen in war.

ROWELL: And by reduce the perspiration he meant don't worry about it?

HOFFMAN: Yeah. Yeah. Just relax. Don't worry. Yeah. Yeah. And, yet you can have other things where we have one, one guy that was the point person out in the field and an NVA popped up in front of him and he lowered his gun and the NVA 02:29:00lowered his gun and they each shot 20 rounds at each other. He said it was so close I could feel the heat from his from his gun, from the bullets leaving the muzzle of his gun. And he had rounds through its cartridge bill [bell?], through its head, every place, never touched him. Twenty rounds shot and they always found a little bit of blood from the other guy. So strange things happened, you know? I mean, they couldn't have been more like ten feet apart from each other rifles aimed down at each other and they're shooting point blank at each other and still missed each other.[Laughs] Yeah. You never know.

ROWELL: Well. So is there anything that we haven't covered that you would like to talk about?

HOFFMAN: I, I was trying to think as we went along, I think we'd certainly have covered about anything and everything I can think of in there, including before and after service, the book. Yeah, I, I think we, I think we did a very good job of covering covering everything.

ROWELL: Okay. I'm glad.

HOFFMAN: Missed. What we missed other people can read the book about, right?

ROWELL: Right. Okay. Well, thank you very much. This concludes the interview with Ronald Hoffman. Ron, thank you for your time.

HOFFMAN: Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time and listen to me.

ROWELL: Of course. Thank you.

[Interview Ends]