Oral History Interview with Donald L. Smith

SPRAGUE: Today is August 20th, 2021. This is an interview with Donald L. Smith, who served in the United States Navy from November 18th, 1943 to December 5th, 1946, during World War Two as an aviation radioman gunner and as a master chief avionics technician during the Cold War and Vietnam War, from September 19th, 1956 to January 18th, 1973. This interview is being conducted by Luke Sprague at the Veterans Home in Medford, Wisconsin, for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else is present in the interview room. Okay, Donald, where were you born?

SMITH: I was born in rural Delhi, Iowa.

SPRAGUE: Delhi, Iowa.

SMITH: Delhi.

SPRAGUE: How do you how do you spell that?

SMITH: D-E-L-H-I.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And did you grow up there?

SMITH: Yeah, I grew up on a farm there.

SPRAGUE: Uh-huh. And if you don't mind me asking, what kind of farming did your family do?

SMITH: Well, general farming, like everybody those days, with hogs and chickens and milk cows and beef cattle. That's about it.

SPRAGUE: And did you go to school there in Delhi?

SMITH: I went to school. Never went to a country school that consolidated the area. But the year I was born, so 00:01:00I went to minor school. In other words, we had running water and flushed toilets.

SPRAGUE: Okay, so what do you remember about it? And it's, D-E, could you spell it again for me, the town?

SMITH: Delhi.

SPRAGUE: Delhi. D--

SMITH: D-E-L-H-I.

SPRAGUE: Delhi, got it. Sorry. We want to make sure we get that right for the record. So you're growing up in, the schools were in Delhi then?

SMITH: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: What? As you grew up there, you went through, what? How did that go?

SMITH: Well, we were, everybody was poor, because that was during the drought 00:02:00years and the depression years. But we went barefoot all summer, to save wear and tear on the shoes, I guess. Anyhow, the school I started in in Delhi, we probably had twenty kids in my grade. Then I, when, later in the early 40s my parents bought a farm, different area, so I went to a different school the last couple years. We had nine kids in my class there.

SPRAGUE: Do you remember anything from the Depression years?

SMITH: Oh, I remember it all. I remember the dust clouds, and I remember you'd send a cow off to market, they used to ship them to Chicago in those 00:03:00days. And lots of times you didn't get enough money for the cow to pay for the shipping. And we were tenant farmers during my first sixteen years, I guess. And, so we, well my parents raised four kids and we started out on that place where I was born, it was 133 acres, and we farmed out on shares. So my folks got a half of the income, the landlords got the other half. And so, it, we were poor but I guess we didn't know it, because everybody else was in the same boat. For the county fair, we used to get a quarter to spend at the county 00:04:00fair, but rides were a nickel, an ice cream cone was a nickel, so actually, a quarter went quite a ways. The local creamery provided free ice cold buttermilk, so that was a treat, too. Then didn't have to buy pop 'cause the buttermilk was free.

SPRAGUE: Wow. Did your parents do anything in addition to farming?

SMITH: No, I was full-time child.

SPRAGUE: Full-time. Okay.

SMITH: Because, no, we raised practically everything to eat, except sugar, salt and pepper, and coffee, but everything else we raised with the, of course, a big, big garden. And that was one of my unfavorite 00:05:00chores, was having to pick peas and beans and stuff for my mother to can. I don't remember, I didn't mind the farm work, pitching hay and chopping oats and things, but I hated that garden.

SPRAGUE: So as you got older, did you graduate from Delhi High School, or?

SMITH: No, I graduated from Buck Creek. The little country school, but it had twelve grades, and a small gymnasium where we could play basketball. Nine kids went to class, two boys and the rest were girls. Not 00:06:00all the boys went on to high school in those days. I think most of 'em did, but not all. Well, not all the girls either.

SPRAGUE: So how did you get involved with the Navy?

SMITH: I don't really know. Of course, the war was on when I graduated and I wanted to join the Navy. And I don't know why, particularly, I guess 'cause I thought, well, in the Navy, usually had a warm, dry place to sleep and usually you had hot meals. But I was only 17, so my dad said he would not sign for me to join. So when I got to be 18, 00:07:00and he didn't have any say in it, so I joined, or volunteered, for the Navy along with my older brother, Dean, who, he was three years older, but he had got rejected earlier because he had some medical problems. So, in the year following, he got that corrected, so the both of us went to join together. Matter of fact, we went through boot camp together.

SPRAGUE: Did you-- so your dad wouldn't sign for you until, he had you wait until you were 18.

SMITH: Right. Yeah, he thought 17 was too young to know what you were doing, and he was probably right.

SPRAGUE: So 00:08:00did you and your brother Dean both join the Navy?

SMITH: Yeah. We joined together, went to recruiting together, and had our physicals together, and went to boot camp together. Then we separated.

SPRAGUE: What can you tell me about boot camp?

SMITH: Well, of course, that was my first trip out of the state. And, it was long, fascinating ride, because we took a train from Dubuque, Iowa to Farragut, Idaho, which seems a strange place for a boot camp. And they had a big leak there, and of course, the government had to spread their training camps around the country, they couldn't put them all 00:09:00together. So we got to boot camp, I joined the Navy in October, and we got to boot camp right after Thanksgiving. They let us stay home for Thanksgiving. And we went out to Idaho. So I guess I spent December and January, in the middle of winter, in Idaho. And I think I went to seven camps, they call them, there. And maybe 40,000 boots out there? Anyway, each camp had its own drill hall and parade ground and things like that. So I was in Company 1047, I still remember 00:10:00that. And it was cold, of course, we had to learn how to march and out on the grinder, which was a gravel, real field. But we learned to march out there. And they had a pen outside of the barracks, where, after chow, you could go and smoke cigarettes. There was no smoking in the building, or any buildings, but you could go outside and smoke. But one thing that always sticks in my mind, and I guess you'd call out of the sea story, because we had to practice standing guard duty, of course. And we were issued wooden rifles for guard duty. And I remember standing the mid-watch, that's midnight, going on watch, and I had to guard an empty clothesline 00:11:00with my wooden rifle. And the guy that got to guard the wash house, he got to be inside, where it was warm, and I was outside with my wooden rifle. And I, they had issued us long underwear, so I had my long underwear on, and then I had my blues and my dungarees and sweater and my pea coat, and I was still freezing. But I remember looking with envy at that guy in the wash house, reading a magazine, while I was out guarding this empty clothesline.

SPRAGUE: What was your impressions of Idaho?

SMITH: Impressions of what?

SPRAGUE: Of being at Farragut?

SMITH: Well, it's a beautiful country. Mountainous around there, and the lake, Lake Pend Oreille, it's just 00:12:00there. It's a state park now, but it was, it was a beautiful country. And one weekend, we got a day to go to, on liberty, we went to Spokane, Washington. It was near us, a city, place that could handle a big influx of sailors. So we, we got a ride to Spokane and toured the town on trips, I guess. And I don't remember much except I was impressed in the bar. I don't, in Washington at that time anyway, if you're going to have a drink of beer, you had to stand up. Couldn't sit down to drink beer. I don't know if that was a state law or whether it was a local 00:13:00ordinance, but at the bar, it was no stools. And of course we got ogle and local girls, but most of us were pretty shy of approaching any. We did get an allowance out of our paycheck. I forget how much it was, $0.50 or something we got out of our paycheck. That was our spending money. But the training grounds, the grinder, as it's called, a bigger picture, a marching area, it was windswept. It was cold, felt good to walk as far as that goes, our march. And we learned 00:14:00our basic, you know, how to stand at attention or parade rest and how to rear march and left flank march and all that you go through at Basic Training. And then our classroom studies were, of course, a lot of it, basic Navy things like firing a five-inch rifle, how to tie off different knots. And you had to learn the language like a "ceiling" is an overhead, "stair-steps," that's a ladder, and a "floor" is a deck. And, well then you weren't allowed to use your own civilian language, you had to use Navy 00:15:00language. And that still sticks with me. I still remember most of that. And the 24-hour clock, which is, I guess routine in all the military. But it was foreign to us. And most of the guys in my company were from Iowa and were cross-section farm kids. I remember we had one lawyer and some merchants and some city kids, we call 'em. But most of the company was farmers, I guess.

SPRAGUE: So you get done at Farragut. Where did you go next?

SMITH: Well, after boot camp, I got, we all got two weeks leave. So back on the train we go, and I go back to Iowa 00:16:00to visit. And then one time was on back to Idaho and they greeted us when we got off the train. They put us on a, well, cattle car, we called it, because you could travel, like it was like a semi. You had bars to hang onto, you stand up. They took us out to the coal yards where they had a great big trestle that they back coal cars up on. And our places were all heated with stokers, what most people today would know what a stoker is. But it's a furnace that feeds with a coal feed, kind of like the pellet stoves we have today. Anyway, so they handed us all a scoop shovel and said, "Unload those coal 00:17:00cars." They didn't have hopper bottoms, so they were just big boxcars, and so we all climbed aboard and of course I knew how to handle a scoop shovel alright. Some of the city kids didn't know that trick either, but there we are, out there at night in the cold with our dress blues, directly off the train, shoveling coal for I don't know how many hours, but until we got those coal cars unloaded. Anyway, then it was time to be assigned to some specialty.

SPRAGUE: Wait, they had you unload the coal cars in your dress blues.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: What did you think of that?

SMITH: Not much. [Both laugh] No, we didn't appreciate that. Would've been nice if we could have a chance to change into dungarees. Besides a lot of us were hungover 00:18:00from that train ride from Iowa out to Farragut again. And I remember on the train, the porters or somebody, I guess they're porters, would sell these little bottles of liquor. I think they're two and a half ounces, I still got one of them. So you could buy them little shots. And so of course a lot of guys were pretty hungover when they got there, but we got cured pretty fast on the coal car. So then it was time for assignment to your specialty. And so when my turn comes, the interview, my person doing the signing, I don't remember who that was, an officer, a petty officer, but anyway, interviewed you and 00:19:00said, "Well, what would you like to do?" And I thought, well, my dad always took to his World War I magazines that had stories about the Red Baron and stuff, aviators, and I thought that airplanes, that sounds pretty good. So I'd said, "I'd like to go into aviation." So, in those days, maybe still that way, if you wanted a particular specialty, and you were qualified for it, they'd give it to you. So I said, "Well, I'd like aviation," so they said, "Well, you'd have to pass a physical for that." So as I remember, the physical, I had to stand on one leg with my eyes closed. And if you could do that, then you're qualified for aviation. So I got assigned to 00:20:00Aviation Radioman School in Memphis, Tennessee. So that was all. Before we got on the train then to go to Memphis, they lined us all up, and I don't suppose they do it that way anymore today, but they had probably 150 guys standing naked in a medical quarters there, standing naked, you know, get your, check your throat and get your short arm checked. And if you passed that, then you got on your way to wherever you were headed. In my case, headed to Tennessee. And I remember riding from Spokane and got on a train going to Chicago. Had 00:21:00to change in Chicago, but we traveled in Pullman cars were staterooms. I had a, there was a guy I had at boot camp traveling in a private stateroom. And 'cause you traveled in whatever room was available. But that was really something. But we got to Chicago, we had to change trains, and we had to layover there, so I had a couple buddies, we were roaming the streets in Chicago at 3:00 in the morning and looking for a bar that was open. Yeah, I guess we didn't find one, but we didn't feel any danger of roaming around Chicago at that time of the night, in those days. So then we caught a train to Memphis, 00:22:00and actually Millington, Tennessee, but it was called Memphis 'cause that was the closest city. And then we had our aviation radio school were we had to learn Morse Code. That was the first requirement. And that consumed a lot of our time. And then basic radio theory, and that was mostly was a pretty well concentrated system. I don't know how many hours a day, but we took Morse Code with a pencil, because your airplanes didn't have typewriters in those days, like they had later on. So we had to learn Morse Code with, um--

SPRAGUE: What type of radios did you train on?

SMITH: Well, basic 00:23:00radio, was it, I think the ART-13 built in Cedar Rapids, Iowa by Collins Radio and that was our basic transmitter. And then they had just come out with UHF [Ultra-High Frequency] transmitter radios in those days, but those were automatic. You could just set the dial on them. So there was no, other then talking into them, you didn't have much very complicated. And then we also, then after you finished your basic radio training, then we got radar operator's training. That was interesting, all the ears, the Navy, always found that fascinating.

SPRAGUE: Was that also in Tennessee?

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: What 00:24:00did you find fascinating about that?

SMITH: Well, being able to point out an object in the sky that's 30 miles away or look at the coastline of a country and see all of the cities and bays and ships and things. And then as you moved, you could orient it, so it always, like the modern things when you have in our cars that always points north, or the map always points north. Or you could flip a switch and the map would shift so that it pointed in the direction you were going.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: We were just going from the old-style radar that was like a 00:25:00blip on a line like you see in an EKG or something like that. That was how you detected your target. Your antennas were directional, and so if you're pointed in the right direction, you'd get a blip, that was a little point that was like so far out on the screen. You correlate that into distance. Then the later ones were more map-like, so you could pick out objects and stuff. And I still remember my Morse Code, because that was drilled into you after a while, and you could just-- it was like a second language, I guess. And I 00:26:00always remember the instructor, we had quite a few women instructors, but I remember with us, this instructor that first introduced us to Morse Code, and he said, "I want to start you out in the middle of the alphabet," and he said, "the first letter you're going to learn is Q." And he said, "Why are you gonna learn, and so the reason we're gonna use that one 'cause it gets you into the rhythm of Morse Code." And he said, "You'll remember because Q is 'Queen'," in the phonetic alphabet, Q is 'queen', I don't know if it still is today or not, but it was 'queen.' And then he said, "That's da-da-da-da, or no balls at all." [Sprague laughs] So he and everybody 00:27:00remembered that. So here it was easy for me. I didn't have any trouble with the coding.

SPRAGUE: So, anything else you remember from radio school?

SMITH: Yeah, well, it was hot of course, then, but that was the middle of the summer. We were in Tennessee, and of course I was, I'd being a farm boy, interested in seeing the cotton fields throughout there. And Memphis, it'd go Liberty, Memphis, was black people, because I had never been around black people. So that was interesting. And, matter of fact, Beale Street, which is famous for music 00:28:00in modern times, Beale Street was out of bounds for military personnel, white military personnel. We weren't allowed to go there. Go down Main Street in Memphis, come to Beale Street, that was it. You had to stop.

SPRAGUE: Any particular reason why?

SMITH: Violence. They had had episodes. But I don't know if it's that prevalent or not, but in those days, well in situations, the war time like that, you have to make snap decisions. You don't, can't drag it through Congress for five years or something. So, they made a decision. And that's the way it was anyway, and we didn't question that. Another kind of 00:29:00connection to modern times, we talk now about they're going to force the military to get their COVID shots, or all the people that are in the military. I don't ever remember being asked if I was going to get shots, I just got them.

SPRAGUE: I don't either.

SMITH: Yeah, yeah, I don't think.

SPRAGUE: So. After you get done in Memphis, what happened next?

SMITH: Well, then that's another train ride. And that was interesting, to Miami, Florida, to gunnery school. Aviation gunnery school. And that train ride, I'll never forget, because we were on inner urban commuter cars, the kind that had a seat 00:30:00that was straight. The backrest was straight up and down, and you could flip it either way, so you could look forward. But that's okay for our ride. But I think it was like three days to get to Miami by that train. And, of course, coal-fired trains, and you'd open the windows to get some breath of fresh air and the cold dust come in there. And we were wearing whites, of course, that was a memorable trip.

SPRAGUE: So you went down, it was Miami or post or base near there?

SMITH: Well, I'm trying to think what they-- Actually, I think it was Opa-Locka, maybe? 'Cause we went to gunnery 00:31:00school, then we went to operational training. That was Opa-Locka Naval Air Station. The gunnery school, we had taken over a dormitory that Embry-Riddle School of Aviation and owned and the government took it over. I think that school's still in business. Anyway, they took it over, so we moved into there.

SPRAGUE: And that gunnery, the Embry-Riddle school that you took over was in Florida?

SMITH: Yeah, it was in Miami.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure it's still there.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Yeah. So I think that was about a month of training, so, maybe. Well, there's one thing I should mention, on the train rides, so many times 00:32:00you get sidetracked and let a special train go through or something. And whenever that happened, the local townspeople would come and board the train with donuts and coffee and pop and candy bars and stuff. I think some places were famous for that. I think it was one in Minnesota, I read a story not too long ago about that one, that they went, day or night, when the train stopped, they came aboard, handing out goodies. It happened a lot.

SPRAGUE: That's really interesting. I've never heard of that before. Huh.

SMITH: Yeah, that was pretty common. Some places were notorious for the quality and stuff that they hand out.

SPRAGUE: So what happened 00:33:00after that?

SMITH: Well, when I got to gunnery school-- Oh, I didn't mention, too, after Memphis, they come around handing out promotion papers to 10% of the class. So I got promoted to petty officer third class, that top 10% got promoted. Didn't even know about the program, so didn't try for it or anything, it's just when we graduated, they came and handed out some promotions.

SPRAGUE: So that's moving along pretty good there.

SMITH: Yeah, it was good. And I got to gunnery school, and I really enjoyed gunnery school 'cause you got to really burn up the ammunition. And as a kid, I was-- I think I 00:34:00got my first rifle when I was nine years old. But that was for like hunting pheasants and things, so I enjoyed hunting. So when we got there, they of course had to start us all off on the very basics, 'cause a lot of the guys had probably never even seen a gun, let alone shoot one. But we got, started off with shotgun on clay pigeons, which was, I grew up, we couldn't afford clay pigeons, we had to shoot live pigeons. But there we started it out with a conventional clay pigeon tosser, shoot 'em out, shoot the pigeons out, shoot at 'em. Then, to more replicate what you'd find in an airplane, they added towers and the clay pigeon launchers were in a tower 00:35:00and they'd shoot the clay pigeons toward you or in either direction. And that was fun. And then they mounted your shotgun on a post, and you learned to handle the shotgun like you would a machine gun, only it was shotgun to start with. And you shot clay pigeons, which was more difficult trying to swivel that shotgun instead of your shoulder. But anyway, then, they put the targets on railroad cars, little railroad cars. And the railroad cars would move sideways or away from you, and you'd shoot at them with a 30 caliber 00:36:00machine gun. Then they put you on a railroad car, and you'd shoot at a stationary target. Then they put both of you on, I mean the target and you, on the railroad car. So you could be moving [inaudible]. They were trying to teach you relative motion, of course, so that you'd learn, shoot ahead of the target and stuff. But that was, that was really interesting. I think that was about a four week course, something like that.

SPRAGUE: So you started out, were they-- What gauge shotguns where they?

SMITH: 12 gauge.

SPRAGUE: Went from 12 gauge, went to mounted, and it sounds like 30 caliber machine guns or?

SMITH: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: And then--

SMITH: Into the fifties.

SPRAGUE: And then fifty.

SMITH: And then, of course, you had to learn how to assemble, disassemble, and those tricks, and blindfolded, assemble your 00:37:0050 caliber, things like that.

SPRAGUE: Did you ever go up to the five inch guns at that point, or was it just?

SMITH: No, just to the machine guns. Because that is, in an airplane that's the biggest we had.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Of course, yeah, I'm thinking on a ship, yeah. Okay. So you get down with gunnery-- Go ahead, I'm sorry.

SMITH: Yeah, then, we went, we moved, and I think it was Opa-Locka Naval Air Station then, for our flight training, where we got assembled into a crew. Well, I went into torpedo bombers, so there was myself as a radioman and there was a gunner and the pilot. And that sort of guy, meet the pilot. Just luck 00:38:00of the draw, I guess, they just had a, like you draw a name out of a hat, that was your pilot. He was from Texas.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember his name?

SMITH: It's William H. Parker III. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: I think he ended up being a lawyer.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: From, uh, it's on the tip of my tongue, Texas. It'll come to me.

SPRAGUE: So you trained on the torpedo bomber?

SMITH: Yeah. I don't know how come I, I suppose we were just assigned that. So I supposed they assigned you whatever, wherever they needed you. 'Cause I could have went to torpedo bombers or the dive bombers or the patrol bombers. But somehow or another, I got assigned the torpedo bomber.

SPRAGUE: And what was the aircraft 00:39:00you trained on?

SMITH: It was a TBF Grumman Avenger.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And you said there's the pilot. And you. Or was there another? Just two crew members, or three?

SMITH: Two crew members.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Myself and a gunner. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What do you remember about the training?

SMITH: I remember my first flight. Now that was my first time ever in an airplane. My first flight was in a glide bombing training flight. And I got sicker than a dog, [Sprague laughs] I remember that. 'Cause the torpedo bomber didn't actually dive bomb like this, they called it glide bombing, where you'd go down about a 45 degree 00:40:00angle. But anyway, that was absolutely a new experience for me. So I didn't know whether I had made good judgment wanting to go into aviation or not. But I got used to it. And you didn't have barf bags either in those days, so if you're gonna throw up, you had to throw up in your white hat, which I didn't.

SPRAGUE: Now on the Grumman Avenger, where does the radioman sit?

SMITH: There in the back, in the-- I don't know what, if there's a name for that space, but you were at the back end of the plane, down in, I guess maybe you'd call it a tunnel. And so you had a swivel seat, or a flip-over 00:41:00seat, where I could look forward and see my radios and the radar screen. And I handled the-- I forget what you call it, the setup for the bomb drops. So if you're gonna drop 'em all at once, or one at a time, or torpedo, I had a control panel for that. Or I sent them up. And if the bomb bay doors were open, I had a little window I could see in the bomb bay, make sure everything was dropped. And then a window on each side. And then if I swung around to the back, you had 30 caliber on a pivot, that stinger, we called it, that aimed aft and downwards for tail protection. And the gunner 00:42:00had to kind of crawl over my shoulders to get into his turret up on top. But I could also get into the compartment between the gunner and the pilot. I could get up in the canopy behind the pilot too, there, I remember. 'Cause sometimes we carried a camera, for, uh, so we'd take pictures from that position.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What else do you remember about, in this case it would be torpedo?

SMITH: Well, we learned, of course, on torpedo technology and things. But as it turned out, eventually we never dropped a torpedo in action. There were-- 00:43:00I guess by the time we got into action, there was nothing left much to torpedo. But we made practice drops and got a chance to shoot at target sleeves to practice our gunnery and things like that.

SPRAGUE: Did you ever end up using that camera, to take pictures?

SMITH: Yeah. You know, I swear one of the pictures in Life magazine which you could still see today, of Mount Fuji, I swear I took that picture. But, uh, 'cause, uh, and maybe it wasn't me, but I swear that picture, I took it. I only got to see my pictures once, and they were whisked off to intelligence, so we never 00:44:00saw actually the results of our photography.

SPRAGUE: What's the image of Mount Fuji that you think took?

SMITH: Well, I think it's a fairly active volcano. So whenever you see photo stories of Japan and stuff, they'll show that picture, or they show that mountain.

SPRAGUE: And what makes you, what do you remember about taking that picture?

SMITH: Well, it's a day about like this, I remember that. And just what our target was that day, I don't remember, 'cause usually we were sightseeing, we were just in and out. But, and I'm not sure whether it was after the 00:45:00first, I think maybe it was after the first atomic bomb was dropped, but before the second one.

SPRAGUE: So it would have been late '45, August or July, somewhere in there.

SMITH: Yeah, that was-- Yeah. Yeah. But we didn't-- the cameras were loaded and everything for us, so we didn't have to do anything except point and shoot. But, uh--

SPRAGUE: Were the cameras heavy?

SMITH: Yeah. Heavy, awkward, I suppose. Gee, I don't-- 18 inches long, something like that. Box camera was a good name for 'em.

SPRAGUE: Huh.

SMITH: But, uh--

SPRAGUE: So you get done with gunnery school. What happens after that?

SMITH: Well, it was gunnery school and then the operational training and then we 00:46:00got leave. That was about Thanksgiving time. So I couldn't get a train ticket back to Iowa to visit, so I did get a bus ticket to Chicago, I remember that. I think that was about a three-day trip from Miami to Chicago on a bus. Then I caught a train from there to Iowa, to visit. I remember I was home for Thanksgiving.

SPRAGUE: And that would have been Thanksgiving of '43?

SMITH: '44.

SPRAGUE: '44, okay.

SMITH: And then, of course, by then I had a girlfriend, so I didn't visit my folks much, I visited my girlfriend while I was on leave there. So, and 00:47:00so then I reported to Grosse Ile, Michigan, after my leave from gunnery school, for training. And there was a Naval Air Station there, Grosse Ile, I think it's near Detroit.

SPRAGUE: How do you, forgive me for not knowing this, but how do you spell Grosse Ile?

SMITH: I think it's spelled G-R-O-S-S-E, capital I-S-L-E.

SPRAGUE: Oh, I got you, Grosse Isle, I got you.

SMITH: Yeah. And from there, we went there very long, then we got orders to Norfolk, 00:48:00Virginia. So back on the train, and there was a regular old troop train, where bunks were about six high, and had a mess car where you go through the line and you could eat standing up. So it was nothing like the first class travel that I had to start with, but got to Norfolk and there, for some reason or another, three crews then of all of us that I went through gunnery school and stuff with, and three of the torpedo plane crews got assigned as replacement crewmen to Torpedo Squadron 16 in Quonset Point, 00:49:00Rhode Island. So I don't know how we got selected other than we were the best or the worst or what, but [inaudible] got assigned to Torpedo Squadron 16. So we took a ferry, I remember, from Norfolk up to, gee, I don't know, Baltimore or somewhere. Then took the train again up to Quonset Point, Rhode Island. Yeah, no, this was in the winter then, of course.

SPRAGUE: And what happened at Quonset Point?

SMITH: We were in training, basically mostly radar training there. We had a little twin engine beach 00:50:00craft. I forget what the civilian version is, but anyways, it was twin engine beach craft. And it had like four radar stations in it. And then we flew out over the ocean around while just practicing using radar. And that was the same type of radar that we had on the torpedo bomber. So we are familiar with it. And there, on one of our night training flights and on the torpedo plane, one of our crews flew into the water. One of the guy's name was, [pauses] he was from Wisconsin, crewman on that plane, it's right on the tip of my tongue, it's down the southwest 00:51:00of Wisconsin. Anyway, the assumption was the pilot got vertigo, which was the same area where that Kennedy flew in the water here a few years ago, the same area there. We were three of us in a formation, and he just veered off and flew in the water. It was a dark, very dark night so no horizon there.

SPRAGUE: And that would have been about when?

SMITH: Uh, probably January of '45, maybe. Something like that.

SPRAGUE: Okay, okay.

SMITH: Yeah, and we weren't there, [coughs] we weren't there too long. And then we had orders to join the squadron at Norfolk, 00:52:00at USS Bonhomme Richard. Big Dick, they called it, or sometimes Bonnie Dick.

SPRAGUE: And that's CV-31? I think--

SMITH: Ye-- [trails off] I'm getting that confused, might've been 31. Yeah, I think so.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: So there we joined up with them, the active squadron who were just reforming. They had been in the Pacific, in the Southwest Pacific, and put in their tour there and came back to the States and regrouped and retrained and filled up the ranks with people like us. And so the three newbies, that was us, joined them there at Norfolk, and 00:53:00the carrier, that was brand new, so we were on there for a shakedown cruise. Went down to get on in that area. And while we were there, while the ship was getting its tests and things, our three crews and support personnel went to Waller Field in Trinidad. So we lived on the Army Air Field there at Trinidad for a while. And got our training, especially at night, night radar training, and night navigation training for pilots.

SPRAGUE: And that was on Trinidad. And you called it Waller Field or--

SMITH: Waller. I'm sure it was Waller Field.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And what was that like, that night 00:54:00 training?

SMITH: Well, it's pretty routine, except one night we went out and there was us, just our three planes out to, I think it's Tobago, one of the islands in that group. And while we were out there, I think it was night navigation training basically for the pilots, but we were out there, we got fogged in, and so we were using our Aldis lamp, that's our blinker gun that I operated to make bright enough lights where the planes could still see each other. But anyhow, the pilots got lost, confused in the fog. And so 00:55:00my pilot asked me, "Can you see Trinidad on the radar?" I said, "No, I got blank no matter where I looked," but I said, "Maybe if we climb higher, we might could find it." So we had the three planes in a big circle, gaining altitude. Finally we got up there where I could pick up the island, and so we got back home. And then I remember when they got there, the tower told them to do three touch and gos. And I thought, "I think I had enough of this flight." But three touch and gos before we could call it quits for the night.

SPRAGUE: So you got 00:56:00 back.

SMITH: Yeah. So when, the ship had then finished their qualifications and we went back aboard and back to Norfolk, and loaded up ammo and food and all that and went through the Panama Canal. And we made a practice raid on Panama City, poaching there. Scare the daylights out of them. [Sprague laughs] Apparently no one warned the populace that we were gonna do that. So.

SPRAGUE: And when was that about, do you think?

SMITH: It was probably getting home about February.

SPRAGUE: February of '45?

SMITH: 45, yeah. Yeah, somewhere around there. You know, 00:57:00I think that, oh yeah. Then we landed and stayed a couple days at the airfield, Albrook Field in Panama City, and got some liberty. And Albrook Field, strangely enough, was named after a pilot from Delhi.

SPRAGUE: Whoa.

SMITH: He was a World War I pilot, and I don't remember why they named it after him anymore, but there was some Albrooks around Delhi, that's where he was from. That airfield was Albrook Field.

SPRAGUE: And Albrecht, A-L-B-R-E-C-H-T?

SMITH: No, "brook," B-R-double-O-K.

SPRAGUE: Oh, like "brook".

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Gotcha. Well, 00:58:00I'm glad I asked.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: So then from there, we proceeded to the coast to San Diego, and we took out about a thousand Marines and headed for Hawaii. And the only thing I remember about that, the first day at sea, headed for Hawaii, we hit pretty stormy weather. So what did the cooks dream up for chow? Some greasy old pork chops. And about half the Marines were hanging over the rail. I remember that. And that was a big joke, how many sick Marines we had. So we got to Hawaii and there we offloaded again 00:59:00and flew over to Maui at an air station at Maui for more practice. That was the whole squadron flew over there.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember the name of the Naval Air Station in Maui?

SMITH: Hmm. I don't remember, no.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: But--

SPRAGUE: So the squadron flew over.

SMITH: To that air station for more practice. I just remember, all of the islands we flew over, all around the stuff, beautiful country. But we got liberty there, of course, town. And I remember I got a haircut, was the first time I ever saw a lady 01:00:00barber. I thought that was another new experience for a guy from the sticks. But I also remember, I think it was the Fourth Marine Division, I'm not sure about that. One of the marines' divisions had really taken a beating in the South Pacific, and they were stationed there for regrouping and recuperation and stuff. And we went and we were in town early on a Saturday morning, I think, in a bar. And the bartender lined up all along the counter, he lined up shot glasses and he walked along, filled all of them shot glasses. We said, "What are you doing?" And he said, "Well, we turn our marines loose at 10:00." And he said, 01:01:00"Then we'll be gone in a flash." And so he was prepared ahead of time for Marines when we'd come to town.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember the name of the town, by chance?

SMITH: I want to say Kahalui, but I'm not positive. I think that was it. They had to be careful, you know, because it was so many servicemen they'd just swamp in all these small communities. Yeah. And then, we come back to Hawaii and the ship wasn't quite ready to leave yet. So they put us up in the Royal Hawaiian Hotel. And that was another eye-opener as somebody from the sticks, to stay 01:02:00in that hotel. SO we had, over the wartime, we had quarters anywhere from the ridiculous to the sublime. We had them all. But I remember the tile floors and everything in the hotel was red plush.

SPRAGUE: That was the Royal Hawaiian--

SMITH: Hawaiian.

SPRAGUE: Hotel.

SMITH: Still a famous landmark, 'cause my wife went there a few years ago, it was still there. The existence is still a luxury hotel.

SPRAGUE: And is that in Oahu or where is that?

SMITH: That's on, yeah, Oahu.

SPRAGUE: Would it be Waikiki or somewhere?

SMITH: Well, Waikiki 01:03:00is a beach on Oahu. Oahu, it's a--

SPRAGUE: The island--

SMITH: Honolulu. Honolulu, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Honolulu. Honolulu's a-- okay. Okay, so you're at Hawaii. What happens next? It would be--

SMITH: They took us off of the Bonhomme Richard. I don't know why, politics, I suppose. But anyway, put another air group on there. And so they loaded us on a jeep carrier. And that was the USS Salamaua, 01:04:00a jeep carrier. But I just run across the liberty car, that jeep, and we went to Guam.

SPRAGUE: And how do you spell that ship's name?

SMITH: S-A-L-A-M-A-U-A, I think.

SPRAGUE: Salamaua, does that sound right?

SMITH: Yeah, close enough.

SPRAGUE: And you called it a Jeep carrier?

SMITH: Yeah, escort carrier.

SPRAGUE: Escort carrier.

SMITH: Yeah. We always called them jeep carriers.

SPRAGUE: Why did you call them jeep carriers? Just curious.

SMITH: I don't know. It was a name, I don't know who dreamed it up to start with.

SPRAGUE: [Laughs] Oh, okay.

SMITH: But, I guess 'cause they were small and versatile. They called them jeeps. Yeah, that's what we referred to 'em as jeep carriers.

SPRAGUE: And 01:05:00what happened when you got to Guam?

SMITH: Then we turned around and loaded on transport planes and flew to Saipan.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: And there, from Saipan, we went aboard the USS Randolph.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: We relieved, I forget what squadron was there, we relieved them.

SPRAGUE: The USS Randolph. That's a CV-15?

SMITH: 15.

SPRAGUE: 15, yeah. Okay. And you're on there, you're on the carrier, what happens next with you 01:06:00 guys?

SMITH: Well, for some reason, I guess we went over to the Philippines to join Task Force 58 point-- I forget, they had different numbers depending on which admiral was in charge. So it was 58.3 or, I think it was 3.

SPRAGUE: That sounds right to me. Task Force 58, that sounds right.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So do you remember the squadron number on the Randolph by chance?

SMITH: Yeah, we were still Air Group 16.

SPRAGUE: Air Group 16.

SMITH: Yeah, all this time from we joined Group 16 and of course, Torpedo Squadron 16 was a part 01:07:00of Group 16.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: And we remained together as a group until the end of the war. But they moved them, they still do, from ship to ship. That's a group.

SPRAGUE: Okay. That's good to know. So--

SMITH: So nothing to remember there, the Philippines. 'Cause we anchored off shore there for some reason, and we actually got to go ashore for a beer bust. I think it was, I don't remember which area it was anymore, but I remember a miles-long sandy beach there. So we all, that wanted to, could jump overboard for a swim or you could go ashore. And they drug out the beer, so everybody got a 01:08:00beer and a sunburn. And we weren't just standing there too. So then we joined up with the rest of the air group and headed for Japan.

SPRAGUE: Were you doing any, running any missions off the Randolph at that point?

SMITH: No.

SPRAGUE: No.

SMITH: No. It's just after we left there, that's when we headed towards Japan.

SPRAGUE: Oh. And, okay, so you didn't run-- You weren't running any missions off the Randolph while you were in the Philippines. Okay. And then you headed to Japan. Okay.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: So let's see where we're at here. Let's go ahead. Let's take a quick break. This ends segment one [Pause in recording].

SPRAGUE: Okay. This is Luke Sprague with Don Smith, Donald Smith, 01:09:00starting segment two. So we had just left off at the ship going to the Randolph, the U.S., CV-15 going to Japan, and it would have been 1945, early. Tell me what happened next, Don.

SMITH: This was around the 4th of July, I guess, We went to, and made our first attack on the mainland of Japan. And I could give you the exact dates if that's material.

SPRAGUE: No, that's okay. We don't need those.

SMITH: Well, okay.

SPRAGUE: So before you got to the mainland in Japan, did you have any other attacks at Saipan?

SMITH: No, I didn't.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: We did our 01:10:00routine training at Saipan, of course, and we cut up on Randolph and we had some training exercises with the entire task force, and that was amazing. The first time I got airborne, see that task force from the air, I couldn't believe it. Ships as far as the horizon.

SPRAGUE: And we think that was Task Force?

SMITH: 58 SPRAGUE: 58.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: And you don't remember if you were .1, .2, or .3.

SMITH: I don't remember.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So anyways--

SMITH: Then we, and we always, of course, kept some planes in the air for patrol for submarines and stuff, and I guess I did a couple of them, with right up patrol.

SPRAGUE: Nothing happened on any of those patrols.

SMITH: No sighting up there. Oh, and, back 01:11:00up a little bit and while we were at Saipan, we lost another crew. We were about 10, 12,000 feet, pushed over into glide bomb attack, and one of the plane's wings just folded.

SPRAGUE: Oh.

SMITH: And it just fell like a rock.

SPRAGUE: This is a member of your squadron?

SMITH: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember any of their names or tail number?

SMITH: I don't, I don't remember their names. No, not offhand.

SPRAGUE: That's okay. That's all right. So let's get back to Japan, then, I think.

SMITH: [Coughs] Okay, wait. [Coughs] I think our first attack, that could be-- Can you pause?

SPRAGUE: Yeah, I can pause 01:12:00it! Yeah, okay, we're going to pause the tape.

SMITH: Okay, yes [Pause in recording].

SPRAGUE: Okay, you're on the air. This is starting segment three with Don Smith. Go ahead, Don.

SMITH: This was on [inaudible]. It was two strikes [Mount Barrow?] and [Naruto??] Airfields, basically Tokyo.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And that was with Torpedo Squadron 16, correct?

SMITH: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: And you're talking to, yeah, strikes on the mainland?

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What else do you have for me? [Smith coughs] Tell me more about that.

SMITH: Well, there was unknown number of aircraft damage or destroying a-- 200 pound, 250 pound freight bombs were dropped in the revetment area. Yeah, against Japanese planes on the 01:13:00 ground.

SPRAGUE: Now, were you loaded with bombs or you had a torpedo bomber? How did that work?

SMITH: Yeah, but we never dropped a torpedo in action. All we did was carry bombs.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Did you ever drop any bombs?

SMITH: Well, 10 July 1945.

SPRAGUE: [Laughs] Sounds like it, sounds like you're doing it then. Cool. Okay. Tell me more about any runs you had against the main islands there.

SMITH: Well, on the 14th of July, it was two strikes, on ferry slips and shipping on Hokkaido, that's north in Japan.

SPRAGUE: Do you remember anything from that mission, by chance?

SMITH: Four planes attacked the 01:14:00train ferry.

SPRAGUE: [Scuffling on the microphone] Okay. Keep going.

SMITH: Four planes attacked the train ferry, and a few minutes after we attacked, they saw the ferry sink. And also we made hits on the ferry slip, and one freighter was sunk and many ships were strafed and attacked. I remember that particular one because I didn't have a gunner with me on that trip. And we-- I remember the pilot flying over the ferry slips, we bombed the ferry slips. And instead of flying away, he stayed low and swung out, 01:15:00and I thought, "Must be something wrong." So I called him. He was okay. He said he was just gonna vary the routine, but he didn't tell me. But I kind of got back at him because on the next time at that same area, we bombed it again, that would be on the 15th of July. I didn't have a gunner, and so when he was flying low after he dropped the bombs, so he was so low that he was pretty close to the ground. So I swung the turret around, on the torpedo bomber, you could swing the turret so you could fire forward. So I opened fire on vehicles there without telling him I was going to do it. That scared the [inaudible] out 01:16:00of [inaudible]. [Sprague laughs] He didn't tell me not to do it again, but anyway, I kind of got [inaudible]. Actually, it was two raids on the 15th, same targets.

SPRAGUE: Were those also at Hokkaido or were they--

SMITH: Yeah, that was the same area.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What do you remember about firing and what that experience was like?

SMITH: Well, I remember two things. We had, for new weapons, and I don't remember which particular rate first used them, but one was the proximity bombs, which was new at that time, we'd set 'em to explode like at 100, 150 feet in the air, 01:17:00and we really used them up. Aircraft hangars, they're really effective because they set out a blast wave and just collapse a building. And the other one, new weapons that we had were what we called Tiny Tims, I think it was an 11-inch rocket. I think it was 11-inch, rockets that we could carry, which we did. That was, I guess, the forerunner of today's airborne missiles. These were not guided or anything but they were rockets, and they're pretty big.

SPRAGUE: And what size were the what size were the proximity bombs in terms 01:18:00of pounds?

SMITH: I think they were 500-pounders.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What happened next?

SMITH: We all went back and next target was back at Yokosuka, I think, mostly they call it Yokosuka now, but it was Yokosuka. Went after the naval base there. One thing that struck me too, [coughs] well, we had so many planes in the air, you would've had to, almost, you had to take turns with the various squadrons from the various carriers and stuff because otherwise you would have a traffic jam 01:19:00right over the target, there were so many planes.

SPRAGUE: Any threat from anti-aircraft guns?

SMITH: That was really thick. That's another story, too. Nobody had warned me about was, anti-aircraft fire was, there are all different colors that explodes, smokes from the aircraft, from the shells and aircraft shells were different colors. So the idea was, of course, so that gunners wouldn't know which was actually, if their gun was firing at us. But no, I didn't expect that surprise. And also that was our first use of window, or that jamming tinfoil strips 01:20:00that we carried. And my job was to string them onto as we approached the target.

SPRAGUE: How did that work, that tinfoil stuff?

SMITH: Well, it would take the radar, the enemy radar, and blob up their screen, so they'd just get a big blob. Actually, they had been using that in Europe, but this was the first for carrier aircraft use, I guess. And so, I think I would guess it was quite effective.

SPRAGUE: How did you deploy it from the aircraft?

SMITH: I opened the door, pitched it out.

SPRAGUE: [Laughs] Was it in a container?

SMITH: It was in bundles.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Just throw out, the idea was, just throw out a handful at a 01:21:00time. It looked kind of like Christmas tree ornaments.

SPRAGUE: Did you encounter any Japanese aircraft while you were over there?

SMITH: Very few. Very few.

SPRAGUE: Did you have an opportunity to fire on any other--

SMITH: I never, never. The only time I fired was when we caught offshore boats on our way back from raids and we attacked them. And then we wouldn't, pilot would make runs on them. He would fire his guns. Then as we passed over the target, then I could fire from the back, there, strafe those boats.

SPRAGUE: Do you ever remember being scared, or no?

SMITH: No. You know, I don't, never particularly remember 01:22:00that. I guess apprehensive, I guess you'd say, but I don't remember being [trails off]. I used to wonder about that. But I don't.

SPRAGUE: Okay, going ahead with your raids on the mainland, did you have any other ones or were those the main?

SMITH: [Inaudible] Kure Naval Base. That was where we sunk a battleship. It was in port at this naval base in Kure. K-U-R-E. Battleship Hyuga.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember--

SMITH: My pilot got Navy Cross for that.

SPRAGUE: Your pilot did, or?

SMITH: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: Oh, okay.

SMITH: And it was customary that a case like in our torpedo squadron, pilot get the Navy Cross, 01:23:00the crew, we get a Distinguished Flying Cross, but somewhere up the line, the hierarchy decided they were giving out too many, so they quit that. So I didn't get that.

SPRAGUE: But your. Your pilot's still got the Naval Cross.

SMITH: Navy Cross, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Navy Cross. Sorry.

SMITH: So, but I could have used that later on in my career because that was points toward the promotion.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Sure. So your pilot was credited with sinking a battleship at--

SMITH: Well, he was--

SPRAGUE: Or involved.

SMITH: Assisted in it. I guess I don't know how many planes.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: I guess we got--

SPRAGUE: Well, let's continue with the raids on the mainland, if you have any other ones, by chance.

SMITH: Well, hold on.

SPRAGUE: We don't have to cover all of them. But ones you remember.

SMITH: Yeah, that, Kure, I remember Kure because it was really heavy defended, and 01:24:00so many others like the ferry slips and stuff wasn't so heavy. And I remember, I don't remember-- Do you remember what date the first atomic bomb was dropped? I don't remember but, but I know between the time they dropped the first one and the second one, we made raids that probably would've been, uh, Honshu, Honshu. That's main, I, the last one made was the 13th of August, at an airfield. Unknown damage. And I remember because we said, "What are you doing 01:25:00here with our little 500-pound bombs after the atomic raids?" Well, at the first one, of course, we didn't know the reason, but they had sent us way out to sea, several hundred miles off the coast. And then we learned that they had dropped that bomb, and we moved back and made more raids, and then they dropped another bomb.

SPRAGUE: Do you think they sent you out to sea to get you away from the bomb?

SMITH: Yeah, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

SMITH: But I remember, we were right on the coast, I could, right over the coast, one-inch band, when they called us back and said, 01:26:00"War is over." That would've been 15th of August, in that area. It would be the 14th here. We had a 2000-pound bomb on that day. I don't remember the target. So of course we wanted to dump it, and they said no, bring them back. So we landed back aboard with it, 2000-pound bomb aboard. [Sprague laughs] Then I suppose they threw it overboard, but anyway, they wouldn't let us dump.

SPRAGUE: So you were in the plane when you got the word?

SMITH: Yeah, mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: Huh.

SMITH: Yeah, I could, we were right over the coastline, headed in.

SPRAGUE: What 01:27:00went through your mind when you got that word?

SMITH: Well, I suppose elation, great sigh of relief. But I don't remember any exuberant displays on the ship and stuff like it showed in New York City, places. I don't remember that on the ship. Might have been, but I don't recall it.

SPRAGUE: Do you think there was any sense, of the people that you knew, that the war was coming to the end, or not?

SMITH: Well--

SPRAGUE: After the first bomb dropped and then.

SMITH: Yeah, I think, the question in a lot of our minds, and it's still 01:28:00in mine, why we were preparing to invade Japan. I don't think it would've been necessary, because we had so many planes and submarines, we had like, whenever we made a raid, there'd be, like 25 miles offshore, would be one of our submarines. You'd always see one, so there was probably a dozen of them, cruising off there, ready to pick up any pilots or crews that had crashed or bailed out. We lost one crew there on, gee, I think it was on the second raid, that they apparently had taken a bullet or shrapnel through the oil line of the airplane, because they were streaming 01:29:00oil. And so, the skipper said, "Well, head back to the ship," he sent some escort with them, told them to head back to the ship. But they never made it, the engine ran out of oil, and they landed in the water. So they landed in the water, and they all got in their life raft, and all signaled they were okay. And so they weren't, probably had made a mistake trying to get back to the ship, because they were quite a ways from a submarine. So the powers that be had told the cruisers to send out some seaplanes to pick 'em up. And the seaplanes never found 'em. And so it got dark, and so that was the last we saw them. Never found them.

SPRAGUE: This would've have been from your squadron?

SMITH: Right. That was the executive officer.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to 01:30:00remember his name?

SMITH: Neil, Stanley, Neil was pilot. I think Stanley was gunner, and Hearn was the radioman. Yeah, he was executive officer.

SPRAGUE: That was the executive officer of the squadron, huh?

SMITH: Yeah, it was his second tour.

SPRAGUE: That would have been right in July of '45, or August of '45?.

SMITH: Yeah, probably that would have been August, yeah, about the first part of August. Or else, the last week of July, I'm not 01:31:00sure. And we some guys who got wounded from shrapnel, but I think that was the only plane crew, we lost the whole crew. Oh, we did have another crew that was shot down. But that was on that when we were raiding those ferry slips, and they were shot down. And they came down in the open water between the two islands, and so they got on their rubber boat, and they headed out for sea. And a submarine picked them up. They 01:32:00rowed like, something like 20 miles, try to row one of the rubber boats, there's a real effort, but they really made time.

SPRAGUE: Did you think having those submarines out there for recovery, was that, did you think about that as being on the plane, if you got shot down, your odds were pretty good?

SMITH: Oh yeah, sure, it gave you confidence. Yeah, if you were shot down, that you, somebody would pick you up. And they were close to mainland, maybe like only four or five miles off the Japanese coast. They were close.

SPRAGUE: That was during the ferry raid?

SMITH: That they rowed out, yeah.

SPRAGUE: And then they paddled their rubber boat out 20 miles out 01:33:00to sea. Okay. Did you have any time when you were on the ship by chance so that you would have come under kamikaze attack or any encounters with those?

SMITH: Well, no. The Japanese Air Force was pretty well-demolished by that time. But we did have times, I remember one time when it was real foggy and the guys up in the crow's nest, the lookouts, they could see Japanese planes, but it was so foggy that they couldn't see us. And they obviously must not had radar to detect us, 01:34:00'cause they flew on, unaware that we were even there. I saw some horrible results of those attacks, like the USS Franklin, that was really beat up. They were just coming into Pearl Harbor when we were leaving. It was amazing, it was still floating.

SPRAGUE: Damaged pretty badly though, huh?

SMITH: Yes. But we had so many planes, so many submarines, so many ships that nothing could hardly move on the island of Japan.

SPRAGUE: Do you remember when you were on the Randolph, any of the damage from previous attacks on it before?

SMITH: I think the worst damage on the Randolph, they got hit by one of our own planes, a P-38. I think 01:35:00that they were anchored at [inaudible] and this guy was showboating or flat-hatting, whatever you want to call it. [Sprague laughs] Crashed into the stern of the ship.

SPRAGUE: Huh. So we'll jump back here, World War Two ends. You're flying back with your 2,000-pound bomb still on your aircraft. You land. Tell me what happens next.

SMITH: Next, we, uh. We head closer in to Japan. And, the powers that be were putting 01:36:00together a landing force then, that would take place before the signing peace and that. But they were draining all the ships of their Marines to put together a landing force to occupy the island. So I remember we had a little ceremony when we offloaded our Marines. And I remember the captain tell them, "Good luck, and say, we won't leave you, we won't go home without you." And the next day we headed for home.

SPRAGUE: [Laughs] And they left the Marines.

SMITH: We left the Marines.

SPRAGUE: And you left them on one of the big islands, or?

SMITH: We left them on, must have been on Honshu. Yeah, the main island. Yeah, and.

SPRAGUE: Do you remember what Marines 01:37:00they were?

SMITH: No, they were part of the ship's company.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah, we were on our way home when they, before they had that signing ceremony and stuff on the Missouri. We were already halfway to Hawaii.

SPRAGUE: So--

SMITH: We got to Hawaii, and then had to layover there and still didn't know where we were going, but we were at Hawaii and had to layover. And of course, that was a big treat to get some liberty and get some fresh milk and fried eggs. That was a real treat. I remember I ordered half a dozen fried eggs when I got a chance, at a restaurant there. And 01:38:00we weren't there very long, so they sent us all the way back through the Panama Canal clear back to Baltimore. So we had liberty in Panama City, and then back to Baltimore. Had a welcoming home party.

SPRAGUE: In Baltimore.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: And what was that like?

SMITH: Oh, it was a big party. Had a dance and working on the ship, and opened it up to the public. Thousands of people turned out there for a party and a dance, and a big [inaudible]. And then we got leave that week, month, I think a month's leave. But I didn't, none of us 01:39:00knew where we were going, they just gave us leave papers and said, "We'll contact you." And so in three weeks I got orders over the phone to go to San Diego and I thought, "The East Coast squadron going to San Diego," but they had dissolved the squadron and split us all up, so back in the train again, clear to San Diego. There, I got assigned to the headquarters, 11th Naval District, I guess 'cause I was a radioman, worked in communications.

SPRAGUE: In San Diego, okay.

SMITH: Oh, when I was home on leave then from Baltimore, went home and I got 01:40:00 married.

SPRAGUE: What was that like?

SMITH: What, getting married?

SPRAGUE: Getting married.

SMITH: I suppose it was a big treat. That's a picture up there, in the upper left hand corner. Very simple, everything was still pretty austere then, we didn't have a big wedding or anything.

SPRAGUE: What was your wife's name?

SMITH: Ruth Reggentine. R-E-G-G-E-N-T-I-N-E. Yeah, I remember I was out in the field helping my dad pick corn, and my mother come and said, "You just had a phone 01:41:00call. Supposed to go to San Diego." Yikes. But that was a good job out there.

SPRAGUE: So did both your wife and you go out to San Diego?

SMITH: Well, I went out and then she came out by herself. Uh, she was 18 years old. And she said, well she's going to San Diego, and my mother said, "You'll never make it." But she went off by herself, got on a train, and went to Los Angeles. Had to change trains then. And I met her in San Diego. I had met [inaudible] said to find an apartment. Pretty crude, but you were lucky to find anything.

SPRAGUE: So you were in San Diego at the headquarters, and you were there until, 01:42:00on active duty, at least until '46, correct, or?

SMITH: Yeah it was, May of '46, I think it was, that I got discharged.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Anything during that time at the naval headquarters that, in terms of significance of things that--

SMITH: Well, one thing that sticks in my mind is, we were, the ship, the harbor was full of ships, of Navy ships, and they were ordered to keep a 24-hour radio watch, which they always were. Anyhow, they got pulled in the harbor, and discharge two-thirds of the crew, and so the commander of the ship would come into 01:43:00our office and say, "Can you monitor our ship's pass messages for us? Because I don't have any radiomen," he said, "How am I supposed to monitor that when there are none of my radiomen left?" But out district commander said, "No, you can't do that. They've got a headache themselves." So, we used to surreptitiously keep track of their messages for them, 'cause there was no way in the world they could do it. Eventually they got that straightened out, but I felt sorry for them, or if they did have a radioman, he was supposed to be on duty 24 hours a day. [Sprague laughs] It was a typical end-of-the-war mess, I guess.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. So you're discharged from active duty in 1946? May of 01:44:00'46. What did you do in between your discharge in 1946 and your re-entry into the Navy?

SMITH: I was in the reserve.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: I don't remember whether I joined that in '46 or after a period of time, I don't remember. I think five years reserve, and then I might have had some blank, must have had some blank time there. Then I went on active reserve duty at Glenview, Illinois. They come around recruiting, looking for people to go active duty to maintain the, well they called them TARS, Training and Reserve Program, so they're in Glenview, Illinois. They had the air station trainings, uh, 01:45:00system for training 'weekend warriors,' we called them, the reserves.

SPRAGUE: And that would have been what year you went back on?

SMITH: I think that was '56.

SPRAGUE: '56. Okay. What drove your decision to go back on active duty?

SMITH: Well. A lot of it was pure mercenary. The idea that I'd go do a 20-year reserve, whatever, in military and get medical care and retirement program and that. And also it was more exciting, I guess, but, to get something different because I love to travel and stuff. And my wife 01:46:00was all in favor of it, so. When I went back in reserves, and then I, they come along and offered you more schooling if you would join the regulars. So that's what I did. I went regular Navy and had got advanced schooling as an enlistment motive.

SPRAGUE: And this would've been in '56 again, or after that. What did you go to school for?

SMITH: Well, the radioman rating was phasing out, 'cause they, so much of the communication was automated. And, so, they offered you the opportunity to go to electronic maintenance. So that's what I took, and that was a wide open 01:47:00field, as soon as you did your time, passed your tests, you could get promoted, so. That was a good one to get into. That's a turnout.

SPRAGUE: What was it like going from radioman to electronic maintenance?

SMITH: Yeah it was pretty routine, I guess. The biggest challenge probably was mathematics. Because as a radioman, you never had to learn, you know, the actual theory of your radar, radio, communication, navigation systems. But in maintenance, you had to learn the science of the program. So that was probably the most--

SPRAGUE: And where was 01:48:00the school for that?

SMITH: Back in Memphis.

SPRAGUE: Memphis, okay. After you got out of that school, I think I know where you went, but you tell me where you went.

SMITH: Well, while I was still in the reserve, I went to the Basic Aviation Electronics School from Glenview, and then I went back to Glenview. And that's then when I went regular Navy, then I went back to Memphis for the B-school, they called it, the Advanced Avionics School. And from there, I went to Quonset Point, Rhode Island.

SPRAGUE: And just out of curiosity, what was your rank at this time and how did that work after?

SMITH: Well, when I went back on active duty, I was still third class, 'cause well, towards the end of the war, there was no promotions. But 01:49:00anyway, I carried for my reserve back into active duty, I carried third class radioman. Then, when I got out of the basic school, then I passed the tests and I made third class aviation electronic technician and second class avionics technician at the same time. I took the change of rate test and I took an advancement test at the same time. So I made them both at once. So then I passed my test for first class as a reserve, and when I went active duty, I went active duty as a first class aviation electronic technician. E-6.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What 01:50:00was your posting after that, your basing.

SMITH: Went to Quonset Point, Rhode Island, to a submarine squadron.

SPRAGUE: And which squadron?

SMITH: That was VS-39.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And what, within VS-39, was there a particular section or segment or was that the basic unit? VS-39. Was there a detachment within it?

SMITH: No, just VS-39.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: It was part of an air group, and I'm not sure.

SPRAGUE: Okay. On your pre-interview, you had mentioned, and this could be right or wrong, you had mentioned Essex, 01:51:00CV-9, or CV--

SMITH: Yeah, we were assigned to that carrier.

SPRAGUE: It would either be that one or it would be, maybe--

SMITH: Well, several ones, but the Essex and--

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: I don't know, I think there was another one that I was on, too.

SPRAGUE: Who was the first one the Essex?

SMITH: Yeah, I think so.

SPRAGUE: Okay, so we'll cover that first. You're out at Quonset Point, Rhode Island. You're now in an anti-submarine squadron.

SMITH: Right.

SPRAGUE: Tell me about that, how that works.

SMITH: Well, when I first went there, so first class, and fortunately, the radar system in the S-2 tracker, anti-submarine plane, the radar was the same 01:52:00one that we studied in B-school when I went to advanced school. So naturally, I got assigned to the radar patch, repairing radar, which was cinch. And so, along with other responsibilities of being an E-6, I was primarily radar maintenance. And I'd get some other electronic equipment too, but mostly radar.

SPRAGUE: So I understand, so with the S-2 Tracker, do you have to remember if it was, was it an S-2E, S-2E/F, or just, you know, that it was S-2.

SMITH: Well, the first one was the S-2F.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Then later, I think I was in a different squadron then, 01:53:00but it became the S-2E, which just basically different electronic equipment.

SPRAGUE: And so I understand, and the listener understands, is that E-6, and you're the avionics technician or, I want to make sure I get this right, on the S-2F Tracker, within the VS-39 squadron, were you, did you, did they, did you take the avionics out? Were you in the aircraft? Tell me how that works, because I don't know that.

SMITH: Well, basically, depending on the symptoms, but you basically troubleshoot it, and the aircraft to start would cause a lot of trouble with the avionics within the aircraft, because you've got 01:54:00miles of wiring and connections and things. So I learned and trained all my students, that the first thing you do is for a look for the simple things when you're looking for a problem, just like you do today with your television. First thing is look, make sure it's plugged in and that your connections are proper. We used to have a lot of trouble with poor connections, but if the aircraft checked out, then you'd pull equipment, take it out, take it to the shop and repair it.

SPRAGUE: Now, on the Essex, where did that shop sit? What deck?

SMITH: Oh, gee, I think we were about the third deck, below the hangar deck. Or maybe 01:55:00you it was only the second deck. I don't remember, second or third deck, below the hangar deck. It was in the protected area of the ship, right under the armor plating.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Any particular pieces of equipment that you remember?

SMITH: Yeah, I remember APS-13. No, 31, APS-31. Airborne Poles Search, yeah. Search Radar. Yeah. All the S-2s carried. Then later in other squadrons, I think it was APS-33, modification, 01:56:00 but.

SPRAGUE: So how did those radars, how did that function with the anti-submarine function of the S-2? How was it used?

SMITH: Well, the radar, of course, you could only pick up surface targets. Or a snorkel or submarine or something, which they don't have now, but it was a search radar. The other equipment we had, the MAD, we called it, the Magnetic Detection System that detects iron underwater. And we had some sonobuoys that you could drop and it would transmit sound from the water 01:57:00to your receiver in the airplane. And of course we had our communication equipments, the navigation equipment, all that too.

SPRAGUE: Did you work on the magnetic detection or sonobuoys?

SMITH: Yeah. The magnetic detection system had a system of magnets in a cradle. And so it'd tend to line themselves with the magnetic field that you were flying over. And they were very sensitive and as shaky as I am, oh, I could never work on 'em. But, even then I was shaky, and the mechanics of it was difficult for me. But the electronics part is not that complicated. And to mark radios 01:58:00they were mechanically tuned. You changed channel on a dial, but they were mechanically tuned within the radio system. And they were kind of a headache. ARC-27, I remember.

SPRAGUE: ARC-27. What frequency band?

SMITH: UHF.

SPRAGUE: UHF, and were they transistor, were they tube, were they circuit board?

SMITH: There were tubes. This time that I was in, like when I went from Quonset Point back to Memphis to teach, that was the era of transitioning to transistors.

SPRAGUE: What did you think about that transition?

SMITH: I thought it was great, and it reduced the size of the 01:59:00equipment. And the biggest difficulty was getting the different systems to talk to each other. 'Cause you had some old systems, some new systems, trying to get 'em to commute with each other. That was a difficult thing. But, eventually you got it done.

SPRAGUE: Uh-huh. Do you happen to remember any of the exercises you were involved in in the early, like '56, '57, by chance at all?

SMITH: Well. We, of course, always had practice drills with submarines. We had submarines who would go out and play guinea pig and stuff. And they'd go on, but that 02:00:00was the start of the Russian submarine threat, and it really, really increased after that. But that was in '56, '57, all that there was the beginning of trying to keep track where the Russian submarines were. In later years, like during the Vietnam War, the Russian submarine threat really escalated. That was our a full-time job then.

SPRAGUE: But you didn't think that it was escalated in '56, '57, or it was just coming on then?

SMITH: Yeah, as far as I know. Yeah, at least somewhere in that general area.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember any cruises into the Med or anything like 02:01:00 that?

SMITH: Yeah, on the Essex in '59, maybe. Yeah, I'd say it's probably about '59. We made a, oh what did they call them? Show the flag tour. We went to Scandinavia, we went to Norway and [pauses] oh, I can't say the name now, between England and Norway, that island.

SPRAGUE: Denmark?

SMITH: Denmark, yeah. And then we went to England, and Portugal, and Naples, and Athens, Greece, and through the Suez Canal to 02:02:00Pakistan. Pakistan was a member of, they had a group, I think it was called SEATO, Southeast Asia, anyhow, something. Kind of like NATO, only it was southeast. Pakistan was a member of that. So we went to Pakistan and did an exercise with the Pakistani Navy, and I guess we're still supporting them.

SPRAGUE: Do you remember anything in maybe Beirut or Lebanon?

SMITH: No.

SPRAGUE: No, okay.

SMITH: No, [inaudible].

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Went ashore in Pakistan, had liberty there.

SPRAGUE: Oh.

SMITH: And it was interesting, of course, Greece, Athens was very interesting.

SPRAGUE: I've 02:03:00got something, do you remember ever-- I've got a couple of things that are listed, but I don't know if you're going to remember them or not. But I've got to ask anyways. Do you happen to remember in '59, helping out some victims of a flood in France, by chance? No?

SMITH: I don't remember that.

SPRAGUE: No. Okay.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So one of the things that we talked about during your pre-interview was, uh, the Bay of Pigs, 1961, jumping ahead.

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: What do you remember about that?

SMITH: I remember it makes me bite nails every time I think about it. Oh, I think I was on the Essex at the time, our anti-submarine carrier. And 02:04:00we off-loaded most of our anti-submarine planes, not all of them but most of them. And we took down a squadron of A-4 attack bombers and headed down the East Coast and went by Miami, close enough up to shore where they could see us, we could see the beach and everything. We got down there, and of course we weren't privy to what's going on, although we knew that pretty much an invasion was coming. And, so being in the communications there, we had our radio on, and we were monitoring several different communication channels. And we were monitoring, 02:05:00I don't know whether it was an official channel or not, but between the crew on the beach, the, you'd call them rebels or what, but anyway the opposition to the Cuban government. We were monitoring them. And we knew that the invasion fleet, such as it was, was headed for Cuba. And we launched our A-4s with their weapons and then-- Of course, we didn't hear of this part, but basically what happened, Kennedy called them off, the bombers. In the meantime, the other guys on the boats were hitting the shore in Cuba with no air support. And they were pleading 02:06:00for their air support. They didn't get it. So I thought that was a stain on the United States government. Afterwards, they'd say Bobby Kennedy was the influence behind that. I don't know that, but I know they called off the air support.

SPRAGUE: So you were there when the, you were in the comms room when the radio traffic was going back and forth?

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Aboard the Essex.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: [Laughs] Wow. Do you remember being sworn to secrecy afterwards?

SMITH: I remember swearing, but I don't remember. [Both laughing] No, I don't think, I don't remember that, being sworn to secrecy or anything.

SPRAGUE: Well, that's what the some historian wrote down. It doesn't mean it's right. [Laughs] Do you happen to remember, uh, 02:07:00having to, if the planes-- The planes came back to the Essex, correct? The A-4s did? Do you happen to remember, were you painting over or doing something with the paint? They're claiming that the planes were painted over, the markings, the stars and stripes were painted over with gray paint. And then later it would have had to come off. Do you remember anything like that?

SMITH: Yeah, It seems to me like they did blank out the insignia.

SPRAGUE: It would have been something you thought was unusual, I think.

SMITH: Yeah. Well, we knew what we were going there for, and we knew what we were taking those attack planes for, but then never used them. And the poor suckers on the beach paid the penalty.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Anything 02:08:00else you remember about the Bay of Pigs?

SMITH: No. Except it always struck me that we were purposely close to shore so the public could see that we were headed there to support that invasion, because the invasion was no secret. And then we kind of sneaked home, I guess.

SPRAGUE: Uh-huh. Okay, moving ahead to 1962.

SMITH: Yeah, I went to Memphis for instructor duty.

SPRAGUE: Oh, okay.

SMITH: Yeah. And at that time, I'm trying to think when I made Chief Petty Officer, but I think that would been, when I made Chief Petty Officer, went to Memphis, 02:09:00got-- Well, one of the guys, that chief said that was there in VS-39, when I went there, he was an instructor in Memphis. So, of course, you're privileged, privy to all the orders that were coming in to Memphis for instructors. And he was there, an instructor, and he told the school superintendent there that I was going, he said, "Listen, I want that guy." So that's how you I ended up teaching in the advanced school.

SPRAGUE: At Memphis.

SMITH: At Memphis. And right after I got there, that was when I made Chief Petty Officer.

SPRAGUE: And that would have been, when did you make Chief?

SMITH: Must be about 02:10:00'59 or '60.

SPRAGUE: Oh, okay. My bad.

SMITH: Yeah, and I did go for a month down to Pensacola for, they have a what they call the Chiefs Academy there, for all the chiefs in the Navy. You made chief, I think it's still there, you go there for months, leadership training, things. I like the teaching there at the advanced school because they were all career people. They were motivated. And then one experience I remember, some of the powers that be decided that we could take these kids from the advanced school and send 'em on over to-- I mean the basic school, we'll send them over to the advanced school 02:11:00and then they go to the fleet and we'll save time. Well, that didn't work because, you know, for one thing, most of them youngsters graduating from the basic school never had a job, never really had any responsibility. And the advanced school was you, pretty much up to you if you're going to make it or not, you've got to work at it. And a lot of 'em just weren't mature enough for that, that program wasn't too successful. Then the powers that be come down on it, say, "Oh, how come so many of these young schoolers are flunking out of school?" You could tell why, but it didn't make any difference. People in Washington figured that system 02:12:00should work, but it didn't. But to teach the advanced ones and, a lot of 'em were people like me that had been transferred over from another rating. They even transferred mechanics and stuff over to the electronic field because they had a surplus of them and shortage of electronic types. So a lot of them were, even though they had taken the basic school too, but they were kind of out of their league. But they would make it 'cause they'd work at it. Some of 'em weren't even high school graduates, but they'd work at it. And of course, you were always willing to help the ones that wanted to help themselves. But 02:13:00you take a recruit from high school, say 17, 18 years old, had never had a job, and send him off to the military, a lot of them unwillingly. I supposed that probably still happens. The judge says, "Well, if you join the military, we won't send you to jail." So when they get there, that's the same thing as being in jail. You have difficulty with them. And, even though, technically they're smart enough, but smarts is only part of it. And so, but I did like teaching these mentor people because they worked at it. And I said earlier, this is the transition age from vacuum tubes 02:14:00to transistors and stuff, well, that was an age from analog to computers to digital computers, so we were learning digital number system stuff. And now, easiest class to teach because so many of the students, they'd never heard of any number system that was different from one through ten, and so that was a class that you could teach on Friday afternoon and you'd have the students' attention. Otherwise, Friday afternoon was kind of a drag, but "Introduction to Numbers Systems" was the name of the course, and it went over good. That was fun to teach. had a student, they've never heard of any number system different from one through ten.

SPRAGUE: And these were courses you taught at Memphis? Or?

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. And that would have been in what timeframe, again?

SMITH: I think it was '59 to '62 or something 02:15:00like that.

SPRAGUE: Okay, that's good to know. Okay. Wow. And you were an instructor? What's the correct title? Is that the correct title?

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: And you would have been a chief warrant or chief at that time?

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. It sounds like you enjoyed that.

SMITH: Yeah, I did. And it was a, you know, a day job. You didn't have midnight work and stuff like that. Like you do on a ship.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. So the point you were making is, sounded like to me, like during the Cuban Missile Crisis, you were teaching, is what it sounds like to me. Or were you back on ship at that point?

SMITH: No, I was on the ship at the missle crisis-- No, wait a minute.

SPRAGUE: In October of '62.

SMITH: That was about the time. Yeah, but I remember in Key West.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Where were you 02:16:00at? Yeah.

SMITH: Yeah, I can't remember. Must have been in-- when was the missle crisis, '61?

SPRAGUE: October of '62, a year later.

SMITH: '62. Yeah, then I would've been in Memphis then. Yeah, or was I back in Quonset Point? That was about the time. No, I think I was in Memphis at that time, the missile crisis, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Okay, no problem. I got to ask because if I don't it-- Yeah. Okay. So moving ahead, what happened after, you're in Memphis to '62, what happens after that?

SMITH: Back to Quonset Point.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: To VS-34. Oh wait, 02:17:00VS-31, I think, VS-31.

SPRAGUE: VS-31. Okay.

SMITH: And that then was the time of the Cold War with, we were trying to keep track of the Russian submarines. See that period happened between, during the Vietnam affair. And so the news mostly was on Vietnam, but that was the time that the Russians had submarines off the coast of New York City and patrolled the Atlantic coast. And our job in cooperation with the patrol squadrons out in Iceland and Bermuda and 02:18:00Cuba, we were trying to keep track of a Russian submarine in the Atlantic Ocean, and we would tend to pick them up and track them when they left. What is that northern part, north of Norway, Murmansk, up there. That's where the Russian submarine had come around there into the Atlantic. And our job was to pick them up and track them wherever they went. So we always knew where they were. And so, so I think we had about four, at least four anti-submarine carriers operating off the Atlantic coast, in conjunction with those other assets in Bermuda and stuff. So if we'd lost one of the subs, 02:19:00we would be held at bay until we could locate them, find them again, so we could keep track of them. But it didn't get much notoriety because the Vietnam War was going on at the same time.

SPRAGUE: So VS-31, was it on the Essex or was it on the Wasp?

SMITH: I think, we swapped carrier sometimes, part of the time, we're on the Wasp, that I know.

SPRAGUE: Okay, okay. So from the, you'll have to forgive me because I'm an Army guy. So from your perspective, from the VS squadron's perspective, the ship isn't so relevant, necessarily. You're just, happened to be on it.

SMITH: The ship is transportation.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: That's 02:20:00 all.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Okay. That's what I need to know. Yeah. Okay. So do you happen to remember, like, any incidents with, you know, with during the Vietnam War in particular with while you were tracking those subs?

SMITH: Well, there were several occasions when they lost track of them, and we put all our assets to work on locating them again. See, we had an underwater sound system, and I think its probably still in effect, cable underwater, plus patrol squadrons from Iceland, and Brunswick, Maine and Norfolk, Jacksonville, 02:21:00Bermuda. And, so we'd all work in conjunction, like one particular asset could give us a clue of where the sub was located, you know, track down and then things would calm down again. But we never attacked any of them and none of them attacked us. We used to ping them, in other words. Oh and we had our own submarines, of course, too. But we located a submarine, we would ping them, drop an active sonobuoy so you could track them and let them know they're being tracked, as far as that goes.

SPRAGUE: Do 02:22:00you happen to remember any recovery of spacecraft during that time on the ships?

SMITH: We didn't perform that.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Okay. Okay. And the aircraft that you were using for tracking those subs, was that still the S-2?

SMITH: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Did you also happen to work with the helicopter, the Sea King?

SMITH: Helicopters, we always sat, they were part of the air group. They had submarine helicopters, HS squadrons.

SPRAGUE: Did they have their own avionics techs?

SMITH: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So then, yeah, okay, I gotcha.

SMITH: But in our central repair 02:23:00shop, then a lot of the equipment could be crossed over and work them in with ours.

SPRAGUE: Uh-huh. How did, did things change over time in terms of, you talked about sonobuoys, about the magnetometer, you talked about the radar. You saw all the way from the mid-50s into the early 70s, and changing from analog to digital computing, and from tubes to transistors. What were some other, did you notice any other changes?

SMITH: Yeah, in 02:24:00switching into computers. Of course, that's when I got into VB [inaudible]. But uh, navigation really changed over the time that was in the 60s, from the systems that, way back before WWII, you had navigation systems that would point you in a direction of a radio transmitter. You could receive their signal and point yourself in that direction, but you had no way of knowing the distance. So this system was developed where you could tell how far away you were. Which was a complicated system, but it 02:25:00worked. And they had the long-range navigation system, which I think is still in existence.

SPRAGUE: Is that the LORAN?

SMITH: LORAN.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

SMITH: Yeah. [Inaudible] went into that system. Now I suppose it's mostly all satellite, but I think--

SPRAGUE: I've heard mixed reviews on the LORAN from Vietnam-era people.

SMITH: Well, it was like the direction finder. You had to use some sense with it too. We can get break time [Break in recording].

SPRAGUE: Okay, We'll take a break tonight. This is Luke Sprague and Donald Smith. This is segment five of our interview with Donald Smith from Medford, Wisconsin. And we're going to continue our discussion about the Cold 02:26:00War. And we were just talking about navigation systems. So we're going to go ahead and move on from there. In particular, how did you find the Cold War against the Soviets versus World War Two? How do those experiences compare for you?

SMITH: Well, the thing that most sticks [coughs] in my mind, in the Cold War, a lot of it was out of the public view. I mean, the public wasn't 02:27:00aware of what's going on, or what the implications were, just like Afghanistan was just kind of out of the public mind. [Coughs] In World War II, of course, every part of society was involved. And of course, even the children were aware of it because there was rationing and everybody was showing V for Victory signs and every daily paper full of the stories of what was going on and pep talks and 02:28:00things. And, I guess I would say the big thing I noticed was public involvement in World War II, 'cause that touched everybody personally. During the Cold War, and these wars since, except maybe the Korean War, don't touch people so personally as they used to. Maybe 'cause so many, everybody had family members that were involved in the war effort, either in the military or, uh, you know, defense jobs. And there was a universal or common purpose. Everybody was behind the 02:29:00 effort.

SPRAGUE: So late, you know, Cold War, '65 to '72, Vietnam era, roughly. Do you have any memory of, you're tracking these subs. Did you remain in VS-31, did you go to a different squadron or were you in VS-31 until your retirement?

SMITH: I think I, when I made senior chief, I think I transferred to, must've been VS-34. I think I was in four different VS squadrons, 39, 32, 31, and 34.

SPRAGUE: Okay. 02:30:00And you--

SMITH: Because when I made senior chief, I had to transfer to a different squadron.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And senior chief is E?

SMITH: 8.

SPRAGUE: 8. Okay. Tell me, you didn't say much about VS-32.

SMITH: Well, when I first went from Memphis, after I become an electronics, I went to VS-39 and the powers that be decided to split all the squadrons, make them half the size, apparently they were looking for more opportunities to have commanding officers, commanding officers and commander. So that was a job for a junior commander. Maybe they had two many junior commanders. I don't know, and anyhow, 02:31:00so then that split off into VS-32. And so then--

SPRAGUE: When was that about? I know we're going back.

SMITH: 1960, maybe, or something like there.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And then you were at VS-31 and then coming back up to date. You made E-8, you were in VS-34. Was VS-34 also working off the Essex or the Wasp and those ships on the Atlantic?

SMITH: Yeah, it was all in the, we were all out of Quonset Point, Rhode Island was our home port.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What can you tell me about being a senior chief in terms of leading?

SMITH: Well, you switch from, actually when you make chief, you switch--

SPRAGUE: Yeah, I was going to say. Tell me about 02:32:00 that.

SMITH: Senior chief, you are, you're not an electronics technician anymore. You'd be in charge of maybe a division like a-- Or you might even be the maintenance chief for the whole squadron at your senior chief. Master chief, you wouldn't be, but a lot of the senior chiefs were the maintenance chiefs, in other words, they're chief of all the maintenance departments, so you weren't concerned particularly about the technical end of it and more the Charlie, supervision, 02:33:00 leadership.

SPRAGUE: What advice would you give to somebody who is going to be in a position like that?

SMITH: I think the first thing would be setting an example. We had some that were put in that position that shouldn't have been, by virtue of the fact that they were in Vietnam, and they gave live credit to Vietnam service. Which is fair enough, but some of them were put in a position that they weren't prepared for.

SPRAGUE: So set an example.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: What else?

SMITH: And, I guess, how to 02:34:00communicate between your enlisted and your officers, be able to carry a message both ways, and you have to have a little tact.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Sounds very familiar. [Smith chuckles] Do you? Early 70s, late 60s. Did you, you were in the Atlantic, did you have any interaction at all with the, other than them coming to you, the sailors, with the Vietnam War? Or was that the Pacific Theater?

SMITH: Well, they're pretty much two separate Navy. But of course, I had guys that I went to school with or worked 02:35:00with as instructors that went that way. Yeah. So I had some communication with them.

SPRAGUE: What was, you span from World War II, you know, to Vietnam, into Vietnam. What is your perspective on the change in the Navy during that time?

SMITH: Well, I always remember, Admiral Zumwalt, his name still gets batted around. He's the one that allowed the long hair, and well, liberalized the Navy, I guess. And of course, the old timers were set against it, and most of 02:36:00his ideas kind of faded away, but he liberalized it. Created a more mod look, I guess, and stuff, and I think the Navy kind of suffered for that. And changed the uniforms. I remember that dungarees, sailors were always kind of proud of their dungarees. And he, why, I have no idea, changed the design, made 'em look like women's dungarees. The pants. Did away with the 13-button fly on the uniform, which is impractical but it was kind of a Navy tradition.

SPRAGUE: That was Admiral 02:37:00 Zumwalt?

SMITH: Zumwalt. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Yeah. Do you think you, as a Navy chief, you liked those changes in tradition, or not?

SMITH: No, they didn't. [Sprague laughs] No. I'm wondering how long the term "chief" is going to survive. Now anymore, you can't call [inaudible] baseball team chief or something.

SPRAGUE: No.

SMITH: I'm wondering. Then we--

SPRAGUE: So-- Go ahead. I'm sorry.

SMITH: No, I was going to say, when I went to Quonset Point and my sea duty time was up with the anti-submarine squadron, I transferred over to the liaison office at Overhaul and 02:38:00Repair. That was, uh, we had a big repair facility for us S-2s at Quonset Point. And the helicopters, they did there. And it was about a five man office, had a commander and senior chief, and I know chief from the reserves, and the secretary was doing liaison between the squadrons and stuff and the Overhaul Department. And that was different, of course, too, completely alien from what I had been working on. It was maintenance in the squadron.

SPRAGUE: Was that towards the end of your career?

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah, that was. Then 02:39:00from there I got, well then I made Master Chief at that point, and so I was a senior chief billet, so they had to move me and gave me a choice about three places. And I chose Naval Air Test Center, Patuxent River. And when I got there, they were deep in that conversion to digital computer, digital world where your planes could commute, computer could communicate with another plane or with a home base or, uh, wherever. And, or take a ship, airplane, the patrol planes that had been on station, tracking sub 02:40:00for so many hours. They could take all that information and dump it into the plane that had come to relieve them, automatically. And there, then there was some liaison with the contractors that were developing new equipment, like Lockheed and Singer. And those outfits made electronic components for the Navy. We would test them, and then supposedly the contract would go to the best piece of equipment, which didn't always happen. Politics get involved in that. You work for months on a report, on a test, on some particular piece of equipment, then you recommend what to buy, and it goes to the Senate 02:41:00Armed Forces Committee here, somewhere. They say, "No, it goes to this company that's in my home district." But the contractors are all in a, I mean the Navy had hired, they had civilians that worked in the same department as I did, and stuff that we're supposed to write the reports. And so they would get, say they'd get a hundred, two hundred thousand dollars for a test program. And the first thing to do with money is show up and buy new carpet for the office, or new desks for people or something. They had a lot of-- I call it incompetence, but, you see a little bit in your area, you see what goes on in the real world.

SPRAGUE: Sounds 02:42:00like they were greasing the skids.

SMITH: Well, yeah, they make themselves more comfortable and stuff, but.

SPRAGUE: Huh. And that was in Patuxent River. Is that in Maine or Massa-- where is it?

SMITH: Maryland.

SPRAGUE: Maryland, sorry.

SMITH: Yeah, it's down the bay from D.C.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So you felt, even though you may have said your peace, the civilian, the contractors were going to do what they wanted to do. Did you think that or felt that way?

SMITH: Well, not them. I mean, these guys, they might buy a new carbon, but they'd probably write an honest report on what they found. Because there you had statistics, you know, so many hours between failures on this equipment, and things. And, but they, 02:43:00when they'd send their report off to the hierarchy in Washington or wherever, then who knows what happens to it, or what utilization its made of.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. So you're nearing the-- what drives your decision to leave the Navy or to retire? Tell me about that.

SMITH: Well, I had two kids in high school and, Maryland, well, I had to be transferred back to sea duty from the test center. So they had patrol squadrons there at Maryland, but they were moving them to Maine at the time that I had to go to sea duty. Well, I went over to one of those patrol squadrons, 'cause I always wanted one of them, 02:44:00and went over to there and through pulling a few strings, I got transferred to VP-8, Patrol Squadron 8, which was in the process of moving to Maine. But I had a beautiful place in Maryland, I lived right on the water, and I probably couldn't even afford the taxes on it now, but, I would've left my family there to finish up my career, but the schools were horrible. So we all moved to Maine, and then my [meaningful pause] wife was not doing very well. So I just tell you, I guess when my time was up, I would retire. I would've liked to stay, 02:45:00and that being master chief is a really good job. And [meaningful pause] I could have probably cut shore duty right there in Maine, but I decided time there. And, so.

SPRAGUE: And that was your time with VP-8?

SMITH: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: Out of where in Maine?

SMITH: Brunswick, Maine.

SPRAGUE: Brunswick, okay.

SMITH: Base is closed now, but.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember the base's name?

SMITH: Naval Air Station, Brunswick.

SPRAGUE: Berkeley?

SMITH: Huh?

SPRAGUE: I'm sorry, what did you say?

SMITH: Naval Air Station, Brunswick.

SPRAGUE: Brunswick. Okay, got it. It's named actually the places name. Okay.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: That doesn't always happen.

SMITH: Yeah. Yeah, that was. I like Maine. It's a good deal like this.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. So--

SMITH: So 02:46:00being master chief now is like, well, what I was like, now they call it command master chief.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMTIH: And that's a really good job. And you get to pretty much speak your peace because there's no penalty for it. I mean if the commanding officer don't like you, there's nothing he can do about it. So you can, or if you're younger, junior, there is something he can do about it: change your evaluation, so your promotion chance is not good. Oh.

SPRAGUE: So that position was command master chief.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: But the grade is still E-9. But it's because it's 02:47:00 the--

SMITH: It's the title.

SPRAGUE: Yeah, it's like a command sergeant major kind of a thing.

SMITH: Yeah. Right. Right, yeah, same thing.

SPRAGUE: You're holding the position.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Okay. So how did you get from Maine to Wisconsin? Help me out with that, a little bit, if you can.

SMITH: Well, it's a jump from Iowa to Wisconsin, really, because I grew up in Iowa, but then stationed in Memphis. I had a guy from Medford here that I was a student with, both of us were students here. And he and I hit it off, we had a lot of things in common and stuff, and our wives hit it off, and so he prevailed on me to come up here and visit while I was on leave a couple times. And I come up here and I liked it, so 02:48:00I said, I always had intended someday to move further north than Iowa, so I liked here, so that's where I ended up. And I like the people around here, and the country, trees and lakes and stuff.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Roughly what timeframe did you-- Was it immediately after '73, or a little-- Tell me about it. Was it later? Was it years later? I'm just curious.

SMITH: You mean, what did I do?

SPRAGUE: When did you move? To Medford.

SMITH: Oh! I moved in '73, moved from Maine to here.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Out in the country about a halfway to Richter Lake.

SPRAGUE: [Laughs] Out in the-- Where?

SMITH: Well, the neighbors out there had a cabin, and he wanted to sell it, so that's how I got that cabin on Richter 02:49:00Lake. I miss the water.

SPRAGUE: What's the name of the lake it's on? The cabin.

SMITH: Richter Lake.

SPRAGUE: Richter Lake?

SMITH: Yeah. That's where I was, where it was at.

SPRAGUE: Oh, okay. I didn't know your cabin was actually on Richter Lake, I thought it was on a different lake!

SMITH: No, it was on Richter Lake.

SPRAGUE: Okay, well, now I get to ask the question. Where was the cabin exactly? On Richter Lake. Well, if you don't mind me asking.

SMITH: Well, remember if you go down the driveway to the tavern.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: There's a fork.

SPRAGUE: Yep.

SMITH: You go up a hill, I guess.

SPRAGUE: Yep.

SMITH: And you go out on a point. And that's where it was, out there.

SPRAGUE: Wow. Okay. I know exactly where that is, where you're describing. Yeah, you turn right, road-wise. Goes to the bar, if you go to the right, it goes over the hill. Around the hill, and then there's cabins on, there's houses now on the right.

SMITH: Oh, all the way around that point, yeah.

SPRAGUE: And you're all the way at the end.

SMITH: No.

SPRAGUE: No?

SMITH: I was just on the bay side.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: On the, not quite to the end.

SPRAGUE: Okay, not 02:50:00quite. Okay, interesting. I'm very familiar with that lake. Okay. So, '73, move out here to Richter Lake.

SMITH: No.

SPRAGUE: No?

SMITH: No, I moved to, I bought an old farmhouse out on Hammel, here.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Which is, like I say, about halfway to Richter Lake.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Fixed that old farmhouse up, my son lives there now.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: And then I got homesick for some water, so this cabin come along, so I bought that. So I had a place to go fish and play in the water.

SPRAGUE: And you were at Richter Lake [chuckles] from what year to what year?

SMITH: I bought the place about '74. Sold it. Maybe 02:51:00'82 or something like that.

SPRAGUE: Wow, okay.

SMITH: I got into motor homes and stuff, and so I sold the cabin.

SPRAGUE: Well, that's interesting because I would have very likely been on Richter Lake during that time. I'm old enough to have been there during that time, and my father owned the property on the east side of the lake at that time. So that's interesting. Okay. So when you got back here after you retired, did you decide to take on a second career? What did you do, or did you not?

SMITH: No, I said I'm independent, and so I said you never, you can't live on retirement pay, but you can be independent or choosy, so. I went back into electrical work, and I did quite a little of that, 02:52:00and mostly farm wiring, barns and stuff like that. And then I took on a job in road maintenance for the town of Hammel. So I did that for 12 years, I guess. And then, I guess I quit that. And, I was the town assessor for a while, too. But then, yeah, then my first wife died, so I remarried, I guess. And then in '88, I quite completely.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

SMITH: Went puttering, which I do. I still got a few acres out there in Hammel.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: And I, well, we used to fish and travel. After my second 02:53:00wife and I got married, we made it all 50 states and visited a lot of the places where I used to work or be stationed, and then I decided I was getting old and I should move to town. So I did, but now I go to the country about five days a week. So I go out there, I got old tractors is my hobby, for I must have done 15, 20 whole tractors in the last 20 years.

SPRAGUE: Rebuilding them?

SMITH: Yeah, I rebuild them and then sell 'em. It's an expensive hobby, [Sprague chuckles] but I just charge it off to entertainment.

SPRAGUE: And this is over in the town of Hammel?

SMITH: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Is 02:54:00it on your son's property or your property?

SMITH: Oh, I got, we got 18 acres out there.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, kind of winding down here. What are your, I know we talked a little bit about it earlier. What are your thoughts on Afghanistan and what's been happening there? From a World War II veteran's perspective?

SMITH: Well, I changed my mind a little bit, but my thoughts are, we expect the rest of the world to think like we do, good or bad. But we, you can't just go into a country and change it overnight, 02:55:00or probably over 50 years you can't change it. It takes a long time to change a country. And we go in there and we don't go to win, apparently. We don't. And I think we'll probably get some bad advice, but my notion that if you're going to fight a war, you fight it to win. Which we didn't do in Vietnam and we didn't really do it the second time in Iraq, after we got in Iraq, and won the battle, then we didn't know what to do with it. And still don't. And Afghanistan, I think it was a shame. If our motive was to get rid of Bin Laden, we did that, 02:56:00and we could have just got out. In a way, we introduced a way of life to a lot of people that they're going to suffer for now. We didn't think that through far enough to what's going to happen to these people that helped us, and particularly the women, after we introduced and motivated a bunch of them, and now we've just cut 'em off and they're going to suffer for it. And nothing we could do about it. So we gotta start the whole process over again. And I, but I do know that my grandson-in-law and my granddaughter think that it's horrible, the way that we just cut 'em off. They could speak before, I can't speak 02:57:00from experience, but they can. And he worked a lot with interconnection with these, what do you call them? Tribal leaders or whatever, he worked a lot with them. And he had the same interpreter all the time. And of course he's trying to get him up, but he felt that a lot of times you were trying to do things that they weren't ready for. Take 'em from stone age to the computer age in one generation. Hard to do. Because the old chiefs still got the power over there, I guess, the way it seems to work. And the 02:58:00young men, I know they were saying on TV there last night, they were showing someone whose troops stopping civilians and stuff, trying to examine their papers. And he said, "They can't even read. What good is it to show 'em a passport. They can't read that. So how you gonna try to convince 'em that you have special privilege or something?" It's a mess. But I think a lot more people could have died over there.

SPRAGUE: Do you have any involvement with the local veterans organizations here by chance?

SMITH: Belong to all of 02:59:00them. DVA and the VFW Legion and Fleet Reserve. What else is there? That's about it, I guess.

SPRAGUE: Uh-huh. Do you keep track of anybody who served with you while you were in the Navy?

SMITH: I think the last two just died last year. 'Cause I outlived most of 'em. I'm not sure some of the young ones yet, but I have not contacted them.

SPRAGUE: So if you had to do it again, would you do it again? Would you do it again?

SMITH: Oh, yeah, I'd do it again. Do it a little differently, maybe. I'm, uh, some of those years that I spent 03:00:00between World War II and going back on active duty, I sometimes think, well, they didn't gain me much, but in a way they did, because I grew up, you see, that's one problem. And I thought about it this morning. You take a kid out of high school and put him in the military, he never experienced real world. And so he's, he might, you could train him to go out and fight and things like that, but to get out and interact with people and control people, outside of giving them a blank order, to actual people, persuade people, things. I think our military is not well-prepared for that. Even our, I always 03:01:00had a lot of respect for West Point and that place and that, but the situation still applies to them, a lot of them, they haven't experienced the real world. And I think you can see that in some of our generals we got now. And the system hasn't changed much back from the days of old, old England and stuff, you read about the old admirals and stuff. They were political appointees, and that's basically what our generals and admirals are today. You're gonna be a four-star general, you better be politically correct. Even though they know better.

SPRAGUE: Did we miss anything from your military service that you'd like to cover?

SMITH: Well, 03:02:00a couple of things that have changed over the years. Of course, when I first joined, the military was segregated. And you never gave much thought about it on the ship. Blacks and the Filipinos were mess stewards. In other words, cabin boys and stuff. But we had a lot of what they like to call Hispanics now. I remember serving with a lot of them. But when they integrated the service, I give Truman credit for that, I guess, I myself never run across a problem, other 03:03:00than the victim problem. Some of them minorities would portray themselves as victims. Not as much as you see now, but if you take a kid and bring him in the military, maybe forced by the courts, bring him in the military, and then he gets a job washing airplanes or washing clothes and stuff, and he sees this other guy sitting in an office or working electronics, it was always one or two, that they'd say, "Well, I don't have that job because I'm black." And it's not because he's black, it's because the upbringing he was brought up under. And that's not his fault, 03:04:00and you can blame it on whoever you want, but the fact that he's got a menial job is because of the life he's lived previously. Not, not the color of your skin. When I graduated from the advanced school down there, practically every class I was in, I graduated first. But I graduated third in that class, and the one that graduated first was black. And a Marine, as a matter of fact. But, and now this is in Memphis, which is about as far as the deep South as you could get. But our housing and stuff there was all integrated. And our students, we had blacks, and we had some women. The women were just coming, 03:05:00more women than it used to be. But I don't remember any race problems. Maybe there was some, but I thought the military better did the best job of all, integrating society. We might have guys that get harassed, you know, because they're from New York City, or they were Southerners or farmers or something. But it was no different for the blacks. Orientals, you don't hear much about Orientals, but they had their day when they were really second-class citizens, 03:06:00too. And the Mexicans, once they got a new word for them, now I can't, I just heard it last night. But anyway, when we wintered, Nelly and I wintered about 10 years in Texas, we had a lot of neighbors that were Mexicans, and they called themselves Mexicans, they didn't call themselves Hispanics. But I, they intermarried down there, my niece's daughter, she's married to a Mexican. My nephew's daughter, her son, daughter, lives in Chicago. She's married to a Mexican. And, really never thought much about it in the 03:07:00 Navy.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So what motivated you to do this interview?

SMITH: Well, it started up was my granddaughter. But I was thinking the other day when I looked at my calendar and I said, "This was coming up," and I discovered, like after my father-in-law died, and I discovered his actual military history, I said, "I wish I'd have knew that." Because he served in World War I and was a trench, in the trenches in France. And I never knew that. I knew that he was in France, 03:08:00but all the stories he told was about stealing straw from a French farmer for his bunk and stuff like that. He never talked about those months in that muddy old trenches and stuff. And so, I don't know if my story will ever be heard, but most of us had just our own recollections. And the only time you hear 'em much, sometimes veterans get together and they'll tell, we call 'em sea stories and stuff, but most in the families, I don't think you hear much. Like my uncles, I had uncle, two uncles in the Seabees and one in the Army Engineers, and one of 'em fought in North Africa and the Seabees were both in the South Pacific. One of my cousin's husband was a 03:09:00soldier on the islands there in the South Pacific. And I don't know their stories, and maybe if I asked a question, which I know my cousin was marooned on an island there in the Pacific, one of the little islands down there for, he was marooned for a couple months with a few other guys, but. If you did get a story out of 'em, it would always usually be about something that happened on liberty or something like that. Come to the nitty gritty, you know, here. So whatever becomes of this story, but it's just a thing that a lot of guys experienced. It was just by the luck of the draw that I got 03:10:00into combat, because all the guys that I went to school with and stuff, were, never got that far. But I got there because I was part of that three guys, three crews that were replacements. Otherwise, the other guys that I went to school with never made it that far. And I was mighty lucky that I joined Navy, or I was right at that age group at the time I enlisted, I would've found myself in Okinawa or one of those places. Probably Okinawa, 'cause that's where most of my classmates and stuff went. The Army and the Marines. So 03:11:00they're the guys that had it tough. I always had a bunk and always had hot meals and clean clothes. But how I got into aviation, which is just 'cause I read magazines and it sounded too glamorous, but. My brother that I went to boot camp with, he got in the amphibious forces. He was landed in the Philippines, carrying tanks ashore.

SPRAGUE: And what was your brother's name again?

SMITH: Dean.

SPRAGUE: Dean, okay.

SMITH: Actually, later on 03:12:00my next younger brother, named Ned, he was career Air Force. He served in Thailand, he spent a lifetime in Thailand.

SPRAGUE: Thailand.

SMITH: He was in avionics.

SPRAGUE: Okay. During World War II? Or Vietnam?

SMITH: No, Korea. Uh, Vietnam!

SPRAGUE: Vietnam, okay.

SMITH: Yeah. He was younger than I. He married a Japanese, as far as that goes. She had a kind of interesting story. She, I think her mother was married three times and all three of her husbands were killed in 03:13:00action. So her grandmother raised her, but, and she in Japan, oh you had to go, when you got out of grade school, you either, you'd split, you'd go into like what I would say tech school or else you go into higher education. Well, she ended up being a seamstress, and she was working at the PX on rating badges and stuff like that when she met my brother.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Well, I think that winds down the interview.

SMITH: Well, with an eye-opener since I got to travel coast-to-coast. I never got south of the equator. Got north of the Arctic Circle, but never got south of the equator, so I was never like 03:14:00 [inaudible].

SPRAGUE: Mmm. Okay. Well, we'll go ahead and wind up the interview, Don. Thank you for your service. Much appreciated.