Oral History Interview with Maxwell J.Rosenbaum

[Interview Begins]

HEALEY: Today is Wednesday, January 5, 2022. This is an interview with Max J. Rosenbaum, R-O-S-E-N-B-A-U-M, who served with the United States Army during World War II. This interview is being conducted at Mr. Rosenbaum's home in Madison, Wisconsin. The interviewer is Ellen B. Healey, H-E-A-L-E-Y, and this interview is being recorded for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. There are no other people in the room. Alright, Max. Um, at this time 00:01:00I'm going to start asking you some questions to guide you through your oral history. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you born, where were your parents born?

ROSENBAUM: Yeah. My name is Maxwell J. Rosenbaum. I was born on February 12, 1925, and I am now approaching my ninety-seventh birthday. I was born in Brooklyn, New York, and at age thirteen, my family moved to Fitchburg, Massachusetts.

HEALEY: And where was your family from? Where did your mom and dad come from?

ROSENBAUM: Uh, they were from Austria, my mother and father were born in north, what is known as then at that time, Austria. It is now part of the Polish, Ukraine area. Okay, but previously, they were Austro-Hungarians.

HEALEY: And when did they come to the United States?

ROSENBAUM: My father came, oh, [buzzer sounds] I think it was about 1909, and my 00:02:00mother came at 1920, I think. Okay.

HEALEY: Okay and um, did you have brothers and sisters?

ROSENBAUM: I had one, uh two brothers, and one sister. My sister is now approaching her hundred and third birthday and unfortunately my brother died when he was at age ninety-one. Uh, my younger brother lives in Norwalk, Connecticut, and is age ninety-two. Uh, about age thirteen, my father decided to 00:03:00open a restaurant in Fitchburg, Massachusetts, and he brought the family up there about 1938 [buzzer sounds]. I attended Fitchburg High School and I enrolled [microphone shifts] in a program known as A-S-T-P. Army specialized training program. This was in my senior year. The plan of the program was for me to enter the Army upon graduation from high school in 1943, and enter a program 00:04:00which educated its recipients in different languages in Europe and in the Far East. I was ordered to enter the Army draft program and from there, I would eventually get into the ASTP program. It's also know as the A-12 program. In 1943, I entered the Army at Fort Devens, Massachusetts.

HEALEY: Were you drafted? Were you drafted--

ROSENBAUM: Yeah.

HEALEY:--or did you just join?

ROSENBAUM: No, I was drafted.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: In the, in the plan to enter the A-12 program. Once I had finished basic training.

HEALEY: How old were you when you were drafted?

ROSENBAUM: Eighteen.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: So, upon uh, preliminary entry at Fort Devens, we were then sent to 00:05:00Louisville, Kentucky. At uh, the home of the armored command and--now what am I trying to think. At Fort Knox, Kentucky. Upon finishing--when I was in the preliminary program, we arrived at uh, Fort Knox at two o'clock in the morning. After a fifteen-hour train ride from Fort Devens to Fort Knox. Upon arrival, we 00:06:00were greeted by the first sergeant who immediately told us, if you will pardon the expression, "When I tell you to shit, you're gonna shit!" [chuckles] Okay. So we turned to each other and said, "Boy, is he tough." He was tough, but he was fair. During basic training, I was assigned to be the honorary guard for the general of Fort Knox, General Scott. Who had been in the North African campaign. We had a conversation about different things, mostly political, and he seemed to be impressed by my responses to his questions. Okay?

HEALEY: OK, you're doing fine Max, I'm just checking the uh--[cat meows] meter. Go ahead.

ROSENBAUM: Um, when I returned to the headquarters [cat meows] of the troop,um, the commanding officer of the troop was very pleased with my performance and he recommended that I enter the army officer training program. So, I had two options. One, I had A-12, and the other was to enter officer's training. Unfortunately, There was an order issued by the commanding general, which said there would be no transfers from the armored command. [Chuckles] So that meant I would not go to A-12 training, nor would I go to officer's training. After basic 00:08:00training in March of 1944, I was sent to Fort Detrick and ah, being certified as a light tank driver. We were entered in further advanced basic training, and one of my scariest moments was to drive across the Tatamac River in this light tank. Which, the steering apparatus is two hand brakes [cat meows], so it was avery unsteady ride and the approching traffic was taking their lives in their hands [chuckles].

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: Okay. After the advanced training at Detrick I was sent to Fort Joyce Kilmer, which was a point of embarkation for Europe.

HEALEY: Where was that? What state was Fort Joyce--?

ROSENBAUM: New Jersey.

HEALEY: New Jersey, thank you.

ROSENBAUM: New Jersey, right. It was just opposite New York City. One of the moments that I remember, was when we boarded the Aquitania. Which was the sister ship of the torpedoed Lusitania, and we left the harbor of New York at about evening, and we passed the Statue of Liberty, which had its lights dimmed because of the war effort. And it was a sad time, because we didn't know whether 00:10:00we would return to that Statue of Liberty or not. [cat meows] After a few hours, the boat approached the open seas, and there was a sudden appearance of a submarine. [Chuckles] Fortunately, it was one of our submarines [chuckles], [cat meows] but we didn't know that at the time. So, we were getting pretty frightened.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: My berth was located [cat meows] seven decks below top deck of the boat, and we knew we would never make it topside if we were ever torpedoed. So, we had that striking thought in our minds all the time during a ten-day passage to Europe. Now, because of the speed of the Aquitania, [crumpling sound] we 00:11:00traveled alone and not in a convoy, because in a convoy you can't go any faster than the slowest ship in the convoy. So, we could outspeed any other ship. After a ten-day journey, we approached the beautiful sight that I can remember, and this was Northern Ireland at daybreak. It was a beautiful, green, colorful sight. And we thanked God for getting us there safety. We disembarked at Glasgow, Scotland, and were immediately sent by train to the south of England. 00:12:00[Cat meows] During that trip, we stopped at the different stations, and the good ladies of the towns provided us with sandwiches. And the sandwiches contained a lettuce concoction without any meat, or without any butter or anything. But this was wartime in England, and the people were deprived of the basic necessities of life during the war. Finally arrived at our advanced training camp in Wells, W-E-L-L-S, England. And there, we trained for combat to be--once the invasion 00:13:00began in Europe.

HEALEY: And by the time you arrived in Wells, England, what month, was that 1944?

ROSENBAUM: Yes, that was. That would have been late March 1944.

HEALEY: Any idea how many men went with the Aquitania? How full was the ship, how many troops?

ROSENBAUM: I'm sorry, I'm not getting you.

HEALEY: How many troops were in the Aquitania?

ROSENBAUM: Oh. Several thousand.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: I'm not sure how many. Must have been at least three to five thousand men. It was a big boat. Yeah, a regular ocean liner.

HEALEY: Did you all travel to Wells, England, all three thousand of you?

ROSENBAUM: Did what?

HEALEY: Did you all stay together? When you went down to Wells, England?

ROSENBAUM: More or less. But since it was an advanced basic training, you really 00:14:00hadn't established any close relationship with each other on that. We just happened to be packed in there and sent overseas. With the way things were conducted.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: Uh--the trip was uneventful. Except for the food, that was grossly contaminated and many of the recruits were sick [cat meows]. And were [cat meows] throwing up and it was a very unpleasant experience. Any rate. And this Wells city in England [cat meows] was known for its tenth-century church, Wells 00:15:00Cathedral. It was a beautiful church surrounded by a moat, with geese in it. I remember that very sharply. Beautiful. Because--

HEALEY: Were you allowed to go in the cathedral?

ROSENBAUM: Oh yeah. Yeah, we could. When we had time off we could go inside, just a beautiful place. It's very famous for it's construction and its early building in the tenth century, I believe. Anyhow, because I was a high school graduate, I was selected to go to radio operators training school. And that 00:16:00would've been in about early April of 1944. There, I was trained to operate radio, both in voice transmission and in code.

HEALEY: And where did you receive that training? Was that in Wells, or somewhere else?

ROSENBAUM: That was in a place called Shrivenham, England.

HEALEY: Can you spell that, please?

ROSENBAUM: What's that?

HEALEY: Can you spell Shrivenham?

ROSENBAUM: S-H-R-I-V-E-N-H-A-M.

HEALEY: Thank you. How long did you spend at radio school?

ROSENBAUM: I think it was like, eight weeks or so. Because the last day of our training, which you might call graduation, we were aware that the invasion of 00:17:00Europe was on. The reason we know that was because the sky was filled with airplanes. Thousands of airplanes were headed for the coast of France to bombard the coast. And there were also gliders that disembarked paratroopers. So, we knew that the invasion was on, and we went to the radio shack and could hear the chatter of the code on the radio. Announcing the invasion, and telling some of the things that had happened during that period. After graduating, I was sent back to Wells, to join people that were, let's see, what were they called. 00:18:00Replacement, there was a replacement depot and that replaced people that were killed in action or sent to hospitals, or what have you. I arrived in Normandy at about the first week in July. And that would have been about a month after D-Day. Uh, the perimeter of the invasion was still intact an the big big 00:19:00breakthrough at St. Lo. That's S-T, L-O. Had just occurred, and I was then assigned to the cavalry reconnassaince command. And, as a radio operator in an armored car. Armored cars have wheels instead of tracks like tanks do. But otherwise, they mounted at thirty-seven millimeter cannon and had armored plates on the side of the vehicle. It was steered by a conventional steering wheel. My position in the armored car was up front, to the right side of the vehicle alongside the driver of the vehicle. And my radio equipment was set up in front of me. We then broke through at St. Lo and approached after a couple--about a 00:20:00hundred miles or so, to the city of Paris. The rumor was that we were gonna outpost Paris. But that never happened, because the general decided that they would give the French Second Armor Division the honor of liberating their previous capital. We were stationed at Fontainebleau for a short period and then commenced on our attempt to trap the German Army in France.

HEALEY: Max, before you go any further, you indicated that you landed at 00:21:00Normandy, the first week of July. Can you describe more of what you saw at Normandy, four weeks after the invasion.

ROSENBAUM: Yeah. This was an amazing sight. We disembarked from our boat on rope ladders, and landed on these concrete piers which had been towed in to make it a harbor. Uh--upon disembarking, we were just amazed at the sight of the Omaha Beach, where, which was only a short reach that approached a cliff. The cliff 00:22:00had to be surmounted by initial invasion troops, and it just seemed like an impossible task. Because the German gun implacements were set in the cliff, to survey the beach and fire on the troops as they landed there. But the Army Rangers scaled that cliff and eventually were able to establish a beachhead above the beach. My experience in Normandy was sort of interesting. We were assigned to temporary quarters in dugouts and unfortunately my tentmate [chuckles] contracted gum disease [chuckles] and we had to go to the dental 00:23:00clinic. And I had to go with him, because there were afraid that I might've contacted some [cat squeaks] disease with him. At any rate they painted our gums with a purple paint, which was the treatment at the time. And we were returned to our troop headquarters. All other recruits wanted to know where we'd gotten the blueberry pie [both laugh].

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: And we just strung 'em along with that day [laughs]. It made 'em very angry because they wanted to know where they could get the blueberry pie.

HEALEY: 'Kay.

ROSENBAUM: Getting back to the outskirts of Paris [clock chimes], we bivouacked 00:24:00at Fontainebleau for a short period and then we commenced on our drive to trap the German army in France. The idea was to close troops that would come up from the south of France and to meet with our troops who were heading eastward in France and close the gap know as the Bellfort Gap. that's B-E-L-L-F-O-R-T. This closure never did happen. At any rate, during this push to the east we were part 00:25:00of the Third Army which was General Patton's army in France. The army coming up from the south was the Seventh Army and that would come from Italy. And was also at one time under Patton's command. This relates to a later happening when our reconnaissance group was reassigned to the Seventh Army. Some of the incidents that occurred when our push to the east were very striking in my memory. And as we approached one village after the other, people hung out white sheets to indicate they were exceedingly glad to be liberated. And threw food and other items as we passed by. Unfortunately, we hadn't seen an egg in many weeks and 00:26:00they were throwing eggs at us. And more often they would hit you in the face [chuckles] rather than your hand. So, that was kind of amusing.

HEALEY: As you were pushing forward, what kind of food did you have that the U.S. provided? What kind of food or supplements did you eat?

ROSENBAUM: Well, our food was ah, consisted of canned pork and egg yolk for breakfast.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Which you had to eat cold. Supper had--was meat and beans in cans. These are called C-rations.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Okay. They were not very tasty, and they were unable to heat them to light a fire, so not to give away our positions. As we moved eastward on one 00:27:00dark, murky morning, we were approaching Loire River. That's L-O-I-R-E, Loire River in France. As we were approaching the river, we noticed there was a strange figure standing up in a Jeep. And he was waving eastward, saying, "Go get the bastards!" And [chuckles] the driver said to me, "Who was that?" and I said, "You dummy, that was Patton." I said, "Didn't you notice the pearl handled 00:28:00pistols?" That was his signature way, he had pistols that were made of pearl. At any rate, ah, that was [chuckles] my only encounter with Patton.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: As I mentioned previously, we were reassigned from the Third Army to the Seventh Army in the Alsace-Lorraine area. And there we engaged in reconnaisaance and combat. One of the things that wa--still strikes in my mind, is that as we were a forward unit, we entered a village and the village happened to be between the American forces and the German forces. At any rate, artillery battles duels began, and we retreated to the basement of these houses. And with, sitting around in the basement listening to all the shell fire, when all of a 00:29:00sudden there was an appearance of a projectile from a cannon. Flipping over and over through the back door of the cellar. And it embedded itself into the earthen wall between us. [Laughs] I can't tell you the fright of that moment, waiting for it to explode. But it did not, it was a dud. And was, it came from the American side, not the German side. [Laughs] That's an occasion you never forget. 'Cause you could see, it's the first time we ever could see a projectile actually flipping over and over in mid-air, right between the two sides of us 00:30:00that were sitting in the basement.

HEALEY: Yeah. How many of you were in the basement?

ROSENBAUM: I don't know, probably, maybe about ten on each side.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: And then we had the French family was also down there, too. And the grandma of the family said, "I've got to go upstairs and tend to my soup." [Laughs] And we tried to dissuade her from doing that, but she said, "I've gotta go get my soup." [Laughs] So, she was pretty brave. At any rate, as we progressed in the Alsace-Lorraine. we came to a forest. And then the Foret de Pirot. And in the forest we were assigned to dismount and act like infantry. 00:31:00Unfortunately, I forgot about an incident, very unfortunate incident, that happened before we came to the forest.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Luckily I was assigned to take our armored car back for repairs, and while there, members of our platoon were ordered to approach a forest. There, they were met with a German bazooka team that killed fourteen members of my platoon. Some of them, real friends of mine. Because of this happening, new recruits were brought in to sustain the troop. As we approached this forest, as 00:32:00I said, we dismounted, and they needed one radio operator to stay at headquarters to receive incoming and outgoing calls. There were three qualified operators free and we had to decide who would be the one that would stay behind while the other team advanced with the rest of the troops. So we drew straws. I won [laughs]. It meant that I could stay behind. But, becasue one of the other radio operators who was an older guy with a family from Kenosha, Wisconsin, and 00:33:00I don't recall his name. I decided that I would go in his stead, and let him stay behind. And as we approached the forest, we unfortunately, many of the new recruits who had never been in any combat before panicked, and left their positions. And my friend and I found an abandoned machine gun nest. And we looked at each other and said [chuckles], "Well, we're here, let's get in this nest and start defending the position." The company commander came by and he was 00:34:00glad to see us in there and made some nice comment. At any rate, we started, the gunner started firing when he saw approaching German troops. And at that time, artillery shells were landing around us. I was hit by a piece of shrapnel from a German 88-milimeter--I s'pose, cannon--and I crawled out of our gun emplacement and lay on the ground. And as I mentioned, this was winter, one of the worst winters encountered in Europe for over a hundred years. And, I felt I was going into shock. And my buddy, Bill Hoyt, came over and I said, "Bill, you gotta help 00:35:00me get up and get back, I need to have this shoulder treated." Then what the shrapnel had done is it had shattered my scapula and entered the joint of my right arm. Ugh! We finally made it back to headquarters where we were greeted by the company commander, Captain Hess, who berated us and said, "Get back to your position!"

HEALEY: That was Captain Hess?

ROSENBAUM: [Chuckles] He didn't know that I was wounded. At any rate, Bill was 00:36:00frightened. He went back and I encountered Captain Hess. And I said, "We were left out there all alone. It was just the two of us, all alone." And he didn't know that I had been wounded. I collapsed at his feet there and finally, he decided that I had battle fatigue. [Laughs] He still didn't know that I was wounded, and he got the medics to take me to an evacuation hospital. Now, the way the army operated--unlike the Navy and Marines, the medic did not travel up forward with the advancing troops, they stayed at unit headquarters. Said they weren't much use. At any rate, I was put aboard a Jeep and transported back to the evacuation hospital, where [chuckles] I was greeted by a soldier who was 00:37:00passing out purple hearts. And he said, "Were you wounded?" And I said, "Yeah!" [chuckles] and he threw me a purple heart. [Laughs, sighs]

HEALEY: Do you have any paperwork with your purple heart?

ROSENBAUM: Unh-unh.

HEALEY: No?

ROSENBAUM: No.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: [Laughs] No, it's recorded.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Yeah, there's a record 'cause it's in the manual, or the book that I have here.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: So, they did know that eventually, because I was operated on at the evacuation hospital. And funny happening is that I could not feed myself, but there was a German soldier [chuckles] in the bed next to me, and he fed me. And 00:38:00we got to be good friends, even though we were mortal enemies. Anyhow.

HEALEY: Did he speak English?

ROSENBAUM: What's that?

HEALEY: Was he--did he speak English?

ROSENBAUM: Yeah.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Ah, then I was transferred to a general hospital for more uh, operations on the wounded scapula and my ah, shoulder joint. After a long stay in the hospital, I was sent to southern France at a rehabilitation hospital, and 00:39:00eventually we embarked on a hospital ship. To return to the United States. The way I was.

HEALEY: When were you wounded?

ROSENBAUM: Huh?

HEALEY: When were you wounded?

ROSENBAUM: December 2nd, 1944.

HEALEY: And ah, you said you spent a lot of time in rehab hospital? How long were you in southern France, in the hospital?

ROSENBAUM: It must've been at least a month or a month and a half.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: The hospital was in a place called Aix, A-I-X. But we board, we embarked on this hospital ship, and the way hospital ships operated, they were fully lighted. For enemy submarines to see the red cross painted on the side of the ship. As we passed through the Mediterranean, near Gibraltar, we encountered 00:40:00a ship. A merchant ship that had been sunk, and the prow was just disappearing under the water. That gave us no confidence that we would ever make it back to the States. But, things progressed after that. And uh, about mid-Atlantic, our, during a storm, we were notified that a destroyer had a wound, had an appendicitis case, aboard, and needed to be transferred to our hospital ship. It was the most miraculous transfer I've ever encountered, we watched this thing. 00:41:00The first thing they had to do was fire a bouy from our ship to the destroyer. And there, we had some volunteers who got in the canvas seat in the bouy to travel between our ships, which were heaving up and down because of the storm. Never thought they'd make it. But they did, they got the patient aboard and got him back to our ship. It was a miraculous sight. At any rate, after ten days or so, we arrived in Charleston, South Carolina. And, that was a memorable sight because as we passed into the harbor, every ship in the harbor sounded their 00:42:00horns. Welcoming us back to the United States. It was a wonderful feeling. [Chuckles] Not only to be back.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: But also to encounter such a welcome. Well, to make a long story short, I was transferred to hospital in Utica, New York, to be closer to home. And from there I was sent to a rehabilitation hospital on Cape Cod. I was discharged from the Army in June of 1944, a few days before the end of the combat in Europe. And.

HEALEY: '44 or '45?

ROSENBAUM: Ah,1945, yeah it had to be '45. And uh,

HEALEY: While you were in the hosp, while you were recuperating on Cape Cod and Utica, was your family able to visit you?

ROSENBAUM: No, I, no, they didn't visit me, I visited them.

HEALEY: Oh, okay.

ROSENBAUM: I ah, was, I had my arm in a sling and I was able to travel by train from Utica to New York, for a few weeks while I was convalescing there. And we, I was transferred to the Cape Cod hospital for rehabilitation. And then as I said, I was discharged in June of 1945. So, I think that completes my Army 00:44:00experience. I.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: I was fortunate to ah, come under the GI Bill and also the rehabilitation program of the Veterans Administration. And.

HEALEY: What kind of program?

ROSENBAUM: Rehabilitation.

HEALEY: Rehabilitation.

ROSENBAUM: The Veterans Administration rehabilitation program and GI Bill. And in ah, September of 1945, I headed to the University of Wisconsin. In Madison.

HEALEY: Why did you choose Wisconsin?

ROSENBAUM: What's that?

HEALEY: Why did you choose the University of Wisconsin?

ROSENBAUM: Ah, that's a funny question. Because, one of the reasons I came there 00:45:00is that a former classmate of mine in Fitchburg, Massachusetts, had attended the University of Wisconsin. And during a meeting with her back in Fitchburg, she said "You gotta come to Wisconsin, it's a fun place." [Healey laughs] I said, "That's for me." [Chuckles] So, that's where my career started, in Mad, at the University of Wisconsin.

HEALEY: And what was your major at the University of Wisconsin?

ROSENBAUM: Uh, eventually became agricultural bacteriology. Okay. Okay, I receive the bachelor's degree in 1949, and, after a short graduate school program, I decided I had enough of this area. And I met my wife shortly after I 00:46:00arrived in Madison, because she worked in the Veterans Administration program for enrolling students at the university. And, she eventually transferred to the Middleton hospital, VA hospital here in Madison. And our plan was to marry soon. And I entered the University of Massachusetts for a masters program in public health. Betty and I returned to Madison. Betty and I were married in 1951, when 00:47:00I was still at Massachusetts. She transferred to a hospital, a VA hospital in Florence, Massachusetts, while I completed my masters degree. From there, we went to New Haven, Connecticut, at Yale Univeristy. Where I had an assistantship in a research laboratory. I was working on polio vaccine. I completed my stay at Yale about a year later to return to Madison, Wisconsin. And decided that I'd 00:48:00have enough schooling at the time, and I was a married man without a job, so I thought I needed a job. And I took a job at, ah, where was that? [Chuckles] Why can't I remember that? I was there for twenty years. That was in, Great Lakes.

HEALEY: Okay, Great Lakes.

ROSENBAUM: I was at the, ah, Navy recruit training center at Great Lakes, Illinois. And, I was enrolled in a research program to determine the cause of 00:49:00respiratory diseases in navy recruits. Which is known as adenovirus disease. We worked on a vaccine in conjunction with the National Institutes of Health. And eventually produced a successful vaccine for adenovirus. So--

HEALEY: What is adenovirus? Can you spell that for me?

ROSENBAUM: A-D-E-N-O-V-I-R-U-S, adenovirus.

HEALEY: Thank you.

ROSENBAUM: Okay, it's a respiratory virus like coronavirus. But it's a different virus entirely. We were successful, and from that point on, Navy recruits received the vaccine. And it curtailed the illnesses and pneumonia in recruits. [Loud phone ringing] 'Scuse me, I've got to get that. [Phone rings, caller ID 00:50:00states caller] That's okay, my wife's got it. It's okay.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Alright. While employed at the Naval medical research unit number four at Great Lakes, I was sent to complete a program at the University of Illinois School of Medicine, and I received a doctorate, PhD, in microbiology and biochemistry. I served twenty years at NAMRU, N-A-M-R-U, it's an abbreviation. And then they disbanded the research unit, it had completed its 00:51:00mission. I then was employed by the University of Illinois as an associate professor of infectious disease. I served there for three years, at Rockford, Illinois, and then an opportunity came to get back to Madison, Wisconsin, and be employed by the university as their biosafety officer. And I served in that capacity for, let's see. 1978 to 1991. And I retired. And that pretty well ends 00:52:00the story. Yeah. We retired to Mount Horeb, country. And this, our property, we bought our land there and we built a house there, what its known as Tyrol Basin. We lived there for about twenty years. Then I decided that at age eighty it was important that I get closer to Madison.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: And here we are.

HEALEY: And ah, I understand you live here with your wife?

ROSENBAUM: I'm sorry?

HEALEY: You live here in Madison with your wife?

ROSENBAUM: Yeah. That was in twenty-oh-six.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: and we've been here since then.

HEALEY: And you just celebrated your seventieth wedding anniversary?

ROSENBAUM: That's correct.

HEALEY: Okay. Well congratulations on that.

ROSENBAUM: In 2021. Oh?

HEALEY: I think you also mentioned that after you left the service, occasionally you got together with some of your unit for reunions?

ROSENBAUM: Well, after I left the service, depending on what service you're talking about. The military service in 1945, my civil service was in 1991?

HEALEY: Did you ever go back for reunions? Ah, to meet with other who you served with from your military unit? From 7th Marines, 7th Army, or 3rd Army? And can 00:54:00you talk about those reunions?

ROSENBAUM: It's pretty uneventful, not much to describe.

HEALEY: Did you know some of the people at the reunions?

ROSENBAUM: It was just family.

HEALEY: Just family. Um, I think previously you told me you kept in contact in Illinois, you would meet with some prior Army guys.

ROSENBAUM: Yeah, I tried for years to find where Bill Hoyt, who actually saved my life, after, when I was wounded. And I was unsuccessful until just a few months ago. When ah, one of our helpers' relatives was a retired Army colonel. 00:55:00And she was able to determine that Bill had died in 1978, in Massachusetts. So I was never able to thank him for the heroic effort that he did to save my life. Very unfortunate thing. And I dunno how this Army colonel was able to do it, but she did. The other thing I'd like to do is find out the, ah, radio operator from Kenosha, Wisconsin, and I will get her working on that. I doubt that we is alive because when I was nineteen, he was thirty five. And that's one of the reasons 00:56:00that I switched with him in France. 'Cause I knew that he could not sustain it, he had a family.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: He had children, and I did not. So, that's it.

HEALEY: That's quite an experience, what're your thoughts about having served in the Army? Ah, do you regret it or appreciate it? Or.

ROSENBAUM: I tell ya, I would not trade that experience for anything. I'm glad it happened, I was fortunate that it happened because it got me outta combat.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: I probably would not have survived [chuckles] much longer, but... and 00:57:00all of the benefits that I received from the Veterans Administration are truly appreciated. They took good care of me. And they still do.

HEALEY: You indicated that you returned to Mount Horeb, Wisconsin. Where your wife is from. Were you a memeber of the VFW or not?

ROSENBAUM: I'm a member of the Legion.

HEALEY: The Legion, okay.

ROSENBAUM: The Mt. Horeb Legion Post 113.

HEALEY: Is there anything else you would like to add to your oral history?

ROSENBAUM: No, I think I've spoken long enough.

HEALEY: Okay. Well, I thank you Max, and it's truly my pleasure to talk to you--

ROSENBAUM: Well, the only thing I'd like to add is I'd like to extend my appreciation for your work and getting these oral histories and to the Veterans Museum for supporting such work.

HEALEY: Y'know, I just thought of one other thing that you had brought to my attention, and that was the honor flight.

ROSENBAUM: Yeah.

HEALEY: Can you tell me about the honor flight?

ROSENBAUM: Yeah. Um, I wanted to give this video to the museum, but on second thought, I thought I should go through some of my, all of my mementos and decide which ones I should give. And if there's someone I can contact to receive them, 00:59:00I'd like his phone number. And when I feel I've gotten them all together, I could give him a call so he can stop and pick 'em up. Or else you could do it.

HEALEY: Max, I will get you a point of contact and a phone number.

ROSENBAUM: Okay.

HEALEY: And I will write that information down for you.

ROSENBAUM: This, ah. [Shuffling paper sounds] [Indistinct female voice in background] The video recording pretty well tells, describes how we were, what we did, and where we did it. So.

HEALEY: Alright, uh.

ROSENBAUM: I received permission from the survivors of this man's family to 01:00:00donate this to the Veterans Museum.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: It's a copyrighted thing.

HEALEY: And, for the rec.

ROSENBAUM: The family said they'd be happy to have me do that [tinkling bell sounds].

HEALEY: For the record, the video tape, I just want to record what this is. It's called "Through My Sights: A Gunner's View of World War Two," and on the back it has a map of France, Germany, and Austria, showing the route of the 106th Cavalry Group, and it's ah, "Following GI's photojournaling through the European front of 1944-45. Glen Kappelman, K-A-P-P-E-L-M-A-N, first a replacement soldier, then a gunner in the 106 Cavalry Group, took an unauthorized camera in his gas mask and scavenged film along the way to amass over four hundred stills 01:01:00during the war. Kappelman, along with Art Barkis, B-A-R-K-I-S, the radio operator in his armored car, candidly narrated this extensive collection of photos being released for the first time to the public. This program contains adult language and subject matter that may not be suitable for a younger audience," and it is fifty-six minutes long. it was produced in Lawrence, Kansas, 1999. So, that's something that Max has indicated that he may be interested in donating to the Veterans Museum in Wisconsin.

ROSENBAUM: I think I've shown you this. This nor my armored car, but it gives you a description of [microphone is hit momentarily] what it's like.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: And I would've been sitting here.

HEALEY: And, the armored car that you're showing me has wheels, probably six 01:02:00wheels, and it looks like it's in the open.

ROSENBAUM: Yeah, that's the thirty-seven millimeter cannon.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Which was practically useless.

HEALEY: Why is that?

ROSENBAUM: The only thing it would have any good, is they had the, whatcha call them, grape[shot] cannon shells that could be used against personnel. But it was no good against another, any German tank.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Oh! [Chuckles] There was one segment that I really have to tell ya.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: And, ah. It was somewhere in the Alsace, I forget. Sent to outposts, this village, and as we were sitting there just doing nothing but watching, we 01:03:00heard this rumble. In the distance. And what it was, it was a German panzer division that was approaching our tank [laughs], our armored car.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: Fortunately, the driver, the, ah, commander of the tank who fired the weapon had hit the advance scout car of the panzer division, and set it on fire. Well, the whole ten column, panzer tank column stopped. Because they didn't know what was up ahead. [Chuckles] They didn't know if they were facing a whole army divison or what they were, what was up there. So they halted, fortunately for 01:04:00us, they halted the division's advance. And in the meantime, we took off in our armored car. The we're parallel to a road going out of town. They immediately sent the flak wagon with twenty-millimeter cannon equipment. And as we went through the town, parallel to one another, they fired their weapon which was a twenty-millimeter cannon. It struck the armored car on the side of the armored car.

HEALEY: Wow.

ROSENBAUM: What it did, it went through the tire, it went through the quarter plate, and then it went through the back of my flak jacket. And creased my skin, 01:05:00there. and it stuck a grenade box inside the armored car. Oh, after we got away, we stopped the car and inspected the grenade box. Puzzled as to why the grenade didn't go off. So we took one of the grenades out, unscrewed the trigger on the grenade, and turned the grenade upside down. there was no powder [chuckles] in the grenade. Otherwise, it would've been a disaster for everybody in that tank.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: [Laughs] That was an experience that I will never forget.

HEALEY: 'Kay. and I mentioned your honor flight. I understand that you were 01:06:00fortunate enough that when you took the honor flight, that you met Senator Dole. Senator Bob Dole? Do you remember meeting him in Washington, D.C.?

ROSENBAUM: Uh, oh! That was ah, Bob, yeah, on one of the honor flights. Which was my privilege to be on. Ah, we had a wonderful tour.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: Of Washington. The different monuments, the different ah, areas of the wall for Vietnam veterans' inscriptions. And there were some students who were just as happy to see me and congratulate me. And it was a wonderful, wonderful feeling.

HEALEY: And.

ROSENBAUM: To know that there are kids that know what's goin' on in the world. And appreciate what was done for them. Did I show you the picture, Dole and?

HEALEY: Yes, you did. Ah, okay.

ROSENBAUM: See, seen in the.

HEALEY: You've got it hanging in your hall. Yup.

ROSENBAUM: There was an honor flight I took in 2017. And it was one of the real experiences of my life to get the greeting as we came back to Madison.

HEALEY: Okay.

ROSENBAUM: And there was such a joyous encounter with them.

HEALEY: Mm-hm.

ROSENBAUM: That.

HEALEY: Was that 2017 or 2007?

ROSENBAUM: 2017.

HEALEY: 2017.

ROSENBAUM: Yeah.

HEALEY: Okay, very good. Well, I thank you very much.

ROSENBAUM: You're welcome.

HEALEY: For this interview, as well as for your service. You've had a long and amazing life.

ROSENBAUM: I thank you for your service.

HEALEY: Thank you.

ROSENBAUM: And your current service.

HEALEY: You're welcome.