Oral History Interview with Cory Ulbrich

[Interview Begins]

ROWELL: Today is August 8th, 2022. This is an interview with Cory Ulbrich, who served in the U.S. Army from 1987 to 1995 and was deployed overseas during Operation Desert Storm. This interview is being conducted by Kate Rowell in Neenah, Wisconsin. The interview is being recorded for the I Am Not Invisible Project and Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. So, Cory, let's start with where you grew up.

ULBRICH: I grew up here, right in Neenah, Wisconsin.

ROWELL: And what did your family do?

ULBRICH: My mother, when we were younger, worked at the, in the ER as a clerk. Uh, my dad worked for the Neenah Police. He was the dog catcher at the time. Um, and then my mom went through college and began working at one of the paper mills and stuff like that. Um, that's about it.

ROWELL: Can you tell me a bit about growing up in Neenah for you?

ULBRICH: Neenah was fun. Um. It was a clean -- like -- wholesome place where you can be outside and play all the time. You know, when we were young, I had a good group of friends who played a lot of sports, ran, soccer, volleyball, basketball, track. I mean, I went to junior high right here at Shattuck, did the track and field and volleyball and basketball. Um. It was just a nice, quaint town. It was a lot smaller back than what it is now. But it was a good place for growing up.

ROWELL: And as a kid, what were your thoughts on the military?

ULBRICH: I, you know, I had really no thoughts about the military. I was already 00:02:00enrolled to go to UW La Crosse. Uh, Becky, my good friend from high school, her and I were all enrolled at the campus, ready to go. And my parents didn't have a lot of money, and I had to pay, and I had to pay for college. And I'm like, I didn't know how I was going to pay for college, you're 18. Um, I chickened out at the last minute to go to college because I was going to go for to be a teacher. And I wasn't that great at math. So, it always held me back because I was horrible as a math person. I figured college is going to be a lot of math. So, I chickened out and, well, I'll go off to the military because of the GI Bill and thought it would be a different experience otherwise. You know, I didn't come from a military family, so that was definitely an experience.

ROWELL: Did you have any jobs before you went into the military?

ULBRICH: Yes. Um, when I was a kid, I used to, for elderly neighbors, I used to snow blow, shovel, did their lawns. I did the newspaper routes. I babysat. Until I was old enough to where I became a waitress. Worked in a deli. Um. And from there, you know, I did a few manufacturing jobs, worked at the paper mill, and, uh, actually, I was working in a paper mi-- Thilmanys, when I was with the 395th. And when I got called off to war. I was working at Thilmany there.

ROWELL: So how did your family react when you enlisted?

ULBRICH: Oh. They were supportive. Um, you know, they didn't tell me I couldn't, 00:04:00you know, they didn't try and hold me back.

ROWELL: And can you tell me why you chose the Army Reserve?

ULBRICH: Good question. [Laugh] Well, I figure, you know, if I didn't like it, it was only part time. Um. In some ways, I just wish I would have done the full regular military. Would have been, you know, just for sightseeing and different things. But I was more looking for the GI Bill so I could go to school. And I did. I did do some. I came back, [clears throat] excuse me, after my training. I did go to, I started taking the two, two-year college at UW Fox Valley. And then came to math. So, I just ended up only doing a semester. [Clears throat] And 00:05:00then I ended up going to the extension, the tech college. I started doing that. I did a semester there. The math kind of got in the way again. So, yeah, that's-that's basically why I went Reserve, so I could go to college, but math kind held me back.

ROWELL: So can you tell me what date you entered, if you remember?

ULBRICH: The Army?

ROWELL: Mm-hmm, the Army.

ULBRICH: I think it was '80-- '87?

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Do you remember anything about that day?

ULBRICH: My boyfriend and I, at the time he went, he went, uh, regular Army and. 00:06:00I couldn't commit to regular Army, so I signed up for Reserve. But we signed up and he got a referral because of me signing up or whatever it was when he could get a buddy to sign up.

ROWELL: So where do you attend basic training?

ULBRICH: Fort Dix, New Jersey.

ROWELL: Can you describe the environment at Fort Dix?

ULBRICH: Oh, my gosh, that's so long ago. Um. Like what type of environment?

ROWELL: Well, so what do, you when you first got there? What do you remember? Just noticing. Like, what were your impressions when you got there?

ULBRICH: Uh, scared crapless. Um. It was something new getting yelled at, you know. Kind of the way you're regimented, you know, everything is so regimented. 00:07:00I mean, everything down to the T where, you know, you're holding your clothes a certain way. Your lifestyle is all regimented. I'm not used to that. It's kind of like starting, starting a new life. Of how to be.

ROWELL: Yeah, how is adjusting for you?

ULBRICH: It was interesting. You know, I came from a life where I wasn't very well, you know, for keeping my room up to where I had to have floors polished, nice, spick and shiny. And to where my locker, my clothes locker, had to be nice and tight, my bed had to be nice and square and tight. Yeah, it was quite an adjustment. I never polished the floor before until then.

ROWELL: Was there kind of a learning curve for you where there's a period where it was, you know, kind of tough, or did it just kind of did you just kind of get there?

ULBRICH: It was I kind of got there. I mean, I got yelled at a lot. I was kind of the rebel, you know, you weren't supposed chew gum. I chewed gum. So, I was always doing push-ups for getting caught. It was adjustment, especially like, everything is public. Public bathrooms, public showers. That was, I never got adjusted with that, because I was never one to shower with a whole bunch of people. So I was quite -- that and living with a bunch of women, that was an adjustment too because, you know, some women were very respectful, where as some women really weren't. I mean, I did both my basic and AIT [Advanced Individual Training] at Fort Dix, and we had some women that decided they want to stay up 00:09:00all night and rap. And we got to get up at four in the morning, you know, and they're rapping until midnight and after. And you didn't get much sleep anyway.

Um, I learned how to sleep anywhere, everywhere, under beds, in the closets, uh, in the bathroom floors, um, anywhere you could find a place just for the shuteye. Because we were so exhausted all the time, sleeping. I remember we were doing a-a scenario training like a bivouac type thing, you know, with our trucks and stuff. I had fallen asleep in the truck and they had a simulator, like a bomb going off. And scared the crap out of me and, like quick, open the door to fall out of the truck and know that your instructor, "You are dead, Ulbrich. You are dead." Because I was sleeping. I was sleeping. I remember being at, when we 00:10:00have to have our uniforms checked, and we're in parade dress or, you know, standing in line. And I remember falling asleep, I was front row. I fell asleep at parade rest, fell to my knees. And I can hear the people, "Get up, he didn't see you. Get up!" [Laugh] I mean, that's how tired, you're so sleep deprived. But it was fun. I met some really cool people that lasted through life, so.

ROWELL: And so was it all female, all your classes, everything, or all your training or?

ULBRICH: No, it wasn't all female. I mean, it was. [Whispers] Or was it?

ROWELL: Or was it mixed gender? Some of it? Was it maybe different between basic and AIT?

ULBRICH: Yeah, basic was mostly female. AIT, it was more mixed. Um, it was like 00:11:00the halls that we were, what do you want to call it? The unit that we stayed in, um, one half was girls, and the other half was guys. They had like a barrier between them.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. Was there a lot, was there much socializing between us?

ULBRICH: Some girls did. You know, some tried to cross that little barrier. Me? I was just partying all the time.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah, I had a --when I was home, before I even went off to the military, I worked at Pinkerton Security. So, I mean, one of the guys had his girlfriend's state ID, so we made a fake ID for me. So-so at the time, I could get into the bars. But I had told my mom to send it to me when I was off in the military. So 00:12:00I was the one that had -- when we had her R&R -- I was the one that was buying all the liquor for everyone when we had our parties. We got to go to like Cherry Hill, New Jersey, and-and we had some pretty memorable moments.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, what did your mom think of sending you this, this clearly fake ID?

ULBRICH: She was not happy. She didn't want to send it, but I kept telling, "Just send it." She finally, she just sent it. So, but she did not want to.

ROWELL: So, um, when you went out to party was mostly with people you met in basic, or was that later when you're doing advanced training?

ULBRICH: That was more advanced training. When were in basic we really didn't get that much time off. It was more AIT where we got the time.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. Do you remember if there were any regulations about how you were supposed to act when you were, you know, on R&R in theory?

ULBRICH: Yeah. We just were not supposed to get in trouble. Huh? That was, you know, you and dumb times, I can say it.

ROWELL: Did it help you bond with some of the other people?

ULBRICH: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I guess, uh, I could tell you some stories. Our drunken night when we had R&R, I don't know where [cough] we were, but we're mixing our alcohol between wine, beer and hard liquor. And I just remember I passed out in the middle of the road, where my Army buddies had to get me up, and then we had to try and get back to the barracks, and they had to try and get me past the drill sergeant who was on night detail. And we had just -- we-we made sure we cleaned our rooms because it was going to be inspection the next 00:14:00morning. So, we had our room spotless and, yeah, we come back and they, they didn't pass the drill sergeant. I don't know how they did it, but they did it. And we got back to the barracks, I wasn't feeling so good. So I'm like, I had to ask one of the girls to give me a bucket. And she's like, trying to find the garbage cans, could find garbage cans. She comes over, comes flying over to me, cups her hand, [laugh] and I get sick in her hand [laugh] and she gets sick. So we destroyed the floors. So needless to say, we got the white boot award for the worst floors because we took off all the nice, shiny wax.

ROWELL: The acid? Yeah. Oh, man.

ULBRICH: The things that we did for each other, it's like, oh, my gosh.

ROWELL: Do you still keep in touch with those people?

ULBRICH: Uh, not most of them, but a handful of them. Yes, I do.

ROWELL: Speaking of the drill sergeant, um, can you tell me about some of the officers that you encountered when you were in training.

ULBRICH: The officers or the drill sergeant?

ROWELL: Either way, you know, any of you, anybody in authority. Can you talk about your experience with that? What you thought of him.

ULBRICH: Oh, let's see. We had Drill Sergeant Bruce. He-he was kind of a hard-core man, kind of a little sense of humor, but he was always telling me to get down and beat my face because I always had gum. Um, you had Drill Sergeant Boyd, he was kind of the cool cat drill sergeant. [Laugh] But Drill Sergeant Bruce, we had a -- I just remember, it was like a drill team. We're a 00:16:00competition. We're learning how to march, you know, into drills. And then there's some of our African American girls and guys, you know, they-they just. They get more rhythm when it comes to, so that we are doing our, our marches, you know, have a little bit more rhythm to them. It was actually fun. You know, we're doing all these steps and cadences and we actually, I think we got first place. It was -- it was actually really cool. I enjoyed that part with her. I remember that Drill Sergeant Bruce. That's a long time ago. But one of the things I remember, we had a little soul on our steps at the time. I loved it.

ROWELL: Did you ever notice any tension at all in terms of between, you know, 00:17:00black soldiers, white soldiers, anything like that?

ULBRICH: No, no, I didn't see it. The only tension was when, like I said, some-some of the girls, just were disrespectful, doing their own rapping until the wee hours of the morning when we're already sleep deprived. Otherwise, no. There was-- there wasn't. Not on my part. Not the people I hang around. I mean, one of my bunk buddies, Eliot. I mean, she was African American. I mean, I didn't see her differently than, I just looked at we're all brothers and sisters.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. And you feel like. Did you feel like that was the prevailing attitude for a lot of people?

ULBRICH: Yeah, from what I saw, I mean, people I hung around. There is, there is no distinction of anything. I mean, other than we're all in this together.

ROWELL: Did you? Can you tell me about just walk me through a lot of the things that you learned when you were in basic stuff that you learned to do. We talked about, you know, about marching and things like that. Anything else you want to talk about there?

ULBRICH: Yeah, we learned. I mean, basic and AIT? Well, basic, you know, we you did the fundamentals. I mean, you learned how to, you did the, the marching. You did the PT. I mean, that was the best shape I ever was in. I mean, I actually had real six packs, you know, not the rolls that I have now, but I had six packs. [Laughs] You know, you learned your first aid. You learned your weapons, your nomenclatures, your sightings. You learned how to shoot. You learn how to 00:19:00set up. I cannot remember the things, the bombs that you put on the ground.

ROWELL: Mines.

ULBRICH: Yeah, there kind of like mines.

ROWELL: Kind of like. Yeah. You learned to set them?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And doing, you know, the shooting, the sharp shooting, and the simulations of war. I mean, when we had to bivouac and then they do the live scenarios of, um, you know, like bombs blowing up, and you have to all crawl and under barbed wire. Stuff like that. I mean, what you would face, basically.

ROWELL: How was that first exposure kind of to conditi-conditions that might be like combat? How was that for you?

ULBRICH: It was shocking. It was adrenaline pumping. You know, it was a big life 00:20:00experience. I can say it, it was a change. It was definitely a life experience change.

ROWELL: How was it with weapons? Were you familiar with, you know, using guns at all beforehand, or was that new to you?

ULBRICH: No, that was all new to me. I never held a gun prior to that. Never threw a grenade, never set up, oh, I cannot remember those bombs.

ROWELL: They'll come to you later.

ULBRICH: I doubt it.

ROWELL: Maybe, either way, we got some great info already. So can you tell me specifically about learning to operate heavy equipment, like trucks and stuff like that?

ULBRICH: Yeah. That's there was quite interesting. I mean, a lot of the stuff that we learned on, especially at Fort Dix, oh my gosh, like the DEUCEs and the 00:21:005-tons. A lot of the brakes didn't work. We had to learn how to downshift to slow the truck down because the brakes not really functional. Um, yeah, we kind of got, from what I remember, we just kind of got thrown in there and started driving. I mean, they already knew how to do stick, you know, because my first car was a VW and it was stick. But yeah, we, you know, we did like scenarios where we're a convoy in a lot and how to use the night, little night sensor lights and stuff that were really small. Um. We got to learn the 5-tons, the DEUCEs. We were the last class to do the, oh, what it calls. The jeeps, the 00:22:00little jeep Willys for the last class. I remember. I got the class in trouble because the instructor told us to avoid the mud puddles. Well, I didn't avoid the mud puddle. I went right through it. So, our punishment was we had to wash all the jeeps. [Laughs]

ROWELL: How long that take you?

ULBRICH: Oh, it took all day.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah, it took the rest of the day after we got done playing with the jeeps, but it was well worth it. Since they're retiring those vehicles. We were the first class to learn on the HEMTTs, which was interesting. I mean, those are interesting vehicles. Um. I got to learn the semis, the [M]915s, the [M]916s. You know -- how to pull items --I don't know. I remember, oh my gosh, there was 00:23:00this little girl from Milwaukee. Her name was Becker. I remember we would have to put -- she would have to put wood blocks on the gas pedal, and brake, [laugh] and all the other pedals because she was only like four foot something. So that was kind of funny. I remember that. Um, but yeah, I mean, I don't remember all the exact training, how we all did it. It was kind of like we got into the vehicles and just did it.

ROWELL: Can you explain to me a little more about convoy with those sensors?

ULBRICH: Just you know, it was like night-night convoying, and these little nightlights you had on the vehicles. I mean they're like blackout light types -- and you could hardly --when you're young you got better eyesight to-to see them. But they were really extremely hard to see. I mean, they weren't big.

ROWELL: So, can you also talk a little bit about the transition between those older vehicles and the new ones and what, what was different about that between them?

ULBRICH: The older vehicles, you know, like the DEUCEs and jeeps. I mean, those are like World War II troop haulers and, you know, the 5-tons became a lot easier, more automated -- I mean, not automated, but they weren't stick shift or they weren't, they're more automatic. Um, the HEMTTs. oh my gosh. Yeah, they're more automatic. Whole different body style, whole different, uh, suspension systems. I mean, the old trucks, I mean, you were bouncing hard versus the new 00:25:00ones. You know, it it took a lot of the shock. Um, you know, you look at 1940s versus, you know, 40 years later in technology. And now if you look at it, the technology would be even greater. But yeah, I mean, the vehicles drove much nicer handle, much nicer, operate much nicer, user friendlier, had brakes that worked.

ROWELL: Not to jump far ahead, but when you were deployed, what--what kind of did you have access to the newer vehicles or the older ones?

ULBRICH: Um. It was half and half. We have half of the old ones of the DEUCEs. But we did have some of the newer 5-tons that were in there and we have like 915 to 916 that were a little bit older, but we didn't have HEMTTs, we didn't have 00:26:00the Hummers. But after Saudi and we had them over there, but after Saudi, they ended up getting a lot of the vehicles updated in the unit.

ROWELL: And can you tell me a bit about training with ammunition? As an ammunition specialist, too.

ULBRICH: I'm trying to remember. Because that was a separate training. I trained in Colorado.

ROWELL: Okay. That wasn't AIT at Fort Dix? That was separate?

ULBRICH: No, no, that was separate. I got that extended on to my 88M. Learning how to haul ammunitions. Learning how to store ammunitions, keep count of ammunitions, packaging ammunitions, unpacking ammunitions. That was basically 00:27:00what the -- because when we ran the ammo bunker, you know, we had to have stuff stored in different areas and how to keep them covered from the heat. And then, um, for loading the ammunitions we needed for the front lines. And then after the war, having to clean up, keep inventory for shipment back.

ROWELL: Okay. And can you list your MOSes for me real quick.

ULBRICH: Just 88M [Motor Transport Operations] and 55R [Ammunition Stock control and Accounting Specialist].

ROWELL: And then following AIT, you said you went home for a little while?

ULBRICH: For Christmas break. Yeah, and then, you know, after AIT was Christmas break. And after we got done with AIT, yeah, the 395th started.

ROWELL: Can you tell me a little bit about that?

ULBRICH: Truthful?

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: It reminded me of the good old boy system. I mean, they are good people, but it was definitely a good old boy system. You know, you had your higher NCOs that, I don't know, went out for lunches, we were at the unit training. But it just felt like the good old boy system, at the time.

ROWELL: And was that prevalent among only kind of the officers or was that an attitude with some of the enlisted, too?

ULBRICH: Yeah, it was with some of the enlisted.

ROWELL: Ok. And -- [whispers] sorry go ahead.

ULBRICH: But, you know, when we had our weekend training, you know, this is before the war, you know, it wasn't real serious. And people kind of slacked and, and then. You know when we get called up for war it was this like cram 00:29:00training -- I mean -- because we kind of, you know, they always said -- you know, the-the Reserves are for filling in back space for regular military but because they had cut the military so bad, you know, the regular military had been cut so bad. Well, we're the next ones up. So, we weren't expecting, you know, to be in war because we're always supposed to be stateside. But that's what happens when they cut the military. Horrible.

ROWELL: Yeah. So, when did you first learn that you were going to be deployed to Fort McCoy for further training?

ULBRICH: It was Thanksgiving '90. I figured we would be because our-our sister 00:30:00unit. Uh, what was it? Out of Madison, 836 out of Madison. I think it was in August when they got deployed. And I'm like, oh, boy, if they got deployed, we're coming up. And we did. And we got it in November.

ROWELL: Yeah. And so you were with the 395th Ordinance Company at that time?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Yeah. And can you tell me about that experience of gearing up for deployment overseas, what was like for you?

ULBRICH: A lot of work. We had to get all our vehicles painted. We painted them there at Fort McCoy. I remember going into the place and didn't have my respiratory mask on, which I should have because there's a lot of chemicals with that car paint that we used. It was just a lot of cramming and training. I mean, 00:31:00stuff that probably we should have taken a lot more serious, you know, the years prior to that when we were in training. But we really didn't push it real bad. But, you know, trying to do all that cramming training during the winter, you know, for over in Saudi. It was just, it's a lot of combat training.

ROWELL: What were some of the areas that you focused on the most, that you prepared for, you know, the most?

ULBRICH: A lot of it was like field training type stuff. I remember learning with the compass, doing the compass and knowing where we were in combat. Weapons, knowing what type of chemicals, knowing what kind of stuff that Iraq had at the time. Yeah, it was, it was quite interesting.

ROWELL: Um, were you at all surprised when you learned that people were going to start being deployed to Saudi Arabia near, you know, near Iraq, that kind of thing?

ULBRICH: Was I surprised?

ROWELL: Yeah. Were you at all surprised when your people are starting to get called up?

ULBRICH: No, no. I was surprised we were. But, you know, because we didn't, because we had when our Madison unit got deployed, they took some of our equipment, so I figured, you know, we didn't have that much equipment left, you know, where are we doing? But we ended up getting called, called up, and we ended up getting a whole bunch of equipment when over there. So, um. No, not the way they were calling up. I mean, they call up a pretty huge coalition, coalition of forces for that.

ROWELL: And can you tell me when you left for Saudi Arabia?

ULBRICH: We had gone home from Fort McCoy for a Christmas leave and pretty much actually get back beginning of January. We took off. It was like the first week in January when I think we hit ground there, I think, I don't know if it was like the 5th or 6th of January '91.

ROWELL: Yeah. And can you tell me how you felt, you know -- as you were -- as you were going -- going over there? Just what the what your kind of mood was?

ULBRICH: [Apre-what you want to call it, prehensile??] for, on edge. A little nervous, quite nervous. I don't fly well, to begin with, so I got sick quite a 00:34:00bit on the plane. Um. It was, yeah, I don't know. It was scary.

ROWELL: Yeah. How did your family kind of react to that?

ULBRICH: Um, my mom was worried. You know, she-she was afraid for me over there. My dad, I don't know how he reacted because at that time my parents were divorced.

ROWELL: So, can you -- can you tell me where you landed in Saudi Arabia?

ULBRICH: We were in an airfield somewhere in Dhahran, I believe.

ROWELL: And so getting off that plane, what were your first impressions of Saudi Arabia?

ULBRICH: The smells. The smells in that, and it was warm and we were all dressed in or coming from Wisconsin in the middle of winter. You know, winter jacket went, you know, our winter BDUs it was like coming off at nighttime. It was nighttime. I remember just the smell. It was a whole different smell. I can't really pinpoint or explain it.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Um, and then the warmth, the heat.

ROWELL: Here are some old anything like that since?

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: Or just unique to there?

ULBRICH: Unique to there. That was my first thing, was that smell, I just can't. It's different.

ROWELL: Yeah. And can you describe for me just in a kind of in a zoomed-out sense why forces were being sent over there at that time? Kind of your understanding of it at the time?

ULBRICH: Um, my understanding was having a coalition of forces for-for Kuwait -- for liberating Kuwait -- expelling Iraq and Saddam out of Kuwait. I thought we were going to finish it, you know, with Saddam. But I found out years later that when I was at EAA listening to some of the Desert Storm generals there, why we didn't go more in after Saddam during the Gulf War. They're saying they didn't want to destabilize Iraq. But when it was going on and we didn't go after it, 00:37:00and the Shiites who were going to fight with us, to go after Saddam and, you know, we kind of let them down, too, because then Saddam went after the Shiites, because there's the tribals are interesting over there. But, you know, we all sat at the table. We're like, we're going to be back. We didn't finish -- we did liberate Kuwait, but we didn't finish the problem, which was Saddam. And sure enough, you know, Iraq war came.

ROWELL: So this understanding was a couple of years later. And when did you kind of start to feel that way?

ULBRICH: Right away when we were over there, you know? Yeah. You know, it was my friends, Stoney and Mischelle, were sitting at the tables, like -- we didn't finish this. You know, and maybe we should have just, you know, we should've 00:38:00just gone in and finish it. Yes, maybe it was going to be destabilized, but it ended up being destabilized anyway when Iraq War was there. And we should have finished it, because then the Shiites ended up getting slain. Because of Saddam because he didn't like the Shiites, because Saddam's Kurds. So they ended up losing their lives because of it.

ROWELL: So can you tell me a bit about living in Khobar Towers to start out?

ULBRICH: Oh boy, that was interesting. Khobar Towers, I don't know how many stories, there were at least eight levels high, if not higher, but I'm thinking they're higher. They were unfinished. No running water. They did have electric. There's, they had to have to bring people to bring food. And we only had our 00:39:00MREs and stuff like that because nothing was set up. It was kind of still fubared up setting. Yeah, because, you know, everyone -- everything's, everything's trying to get staged and everything all at once. You know, it just sometimes it doesn't work so easy.

ROWELL: Chaos a little bit.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: And I remember all those girls had to stay in one room. I remember, uh, we all had to haul up buckets of water for our bath, and we all had to share the same water, so that was really gross and disgusting. You're lucky if you're like, number one or two, but if you're, like, number ten or eleventh, the water's a little crusty. But you still feel cleaner. [Laugh] Um, yeah, it was, it was definitely interesting, you know, the-the life over there. Um, I remember 00:40:00when we were at Khobar Towers because we didn't stay a whole long time because on some, one night we're, we're sitting there in the room and you could hear like, sound like jets flying by. We're like, oh, yay, go American. All of the sudden, a huge explosion that busted out some of the windows, it shook the building. We're like, what -- we're like, what the heck? And all of the sudden, it just dawned on us, you know, we just got bombed, you know. So, all of us girls are running all over the place, trying to get into our MOPP [Mission Oriented Protective Posture] gear. And then my glasses got twisted because we ran into each other trying to get into gear. [Laughs] But it was scary. I mean, um, after that night when we got bombed, where the Scud got blown up, the Patriot [missile] took it out, over us. So that was good. Um, buildings did get 00:41:00damaged. Um, and after, I remember we slept, I think, the first night we slept in the parking garage. The floor in the parking garage was our first night of sleep in-country.

ROWELL: Was that near Khobar? Where was that parking garage?

ULBRICH: That was in Khobar Tower area.

ROWELL: Okay. It was a separate structure?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Now I'm just laying out in here.

ULBRICH: Yeah. And then after the bombing, we pretty much convoyed out. Got out of there. And I'm glad we did, because it wasn't long afterward where the Scud took out a building that was -- held a bunch of Reserves were in, were killed.

ROWELL: Was that in, like, February? Maybe?

ULBRICH: I think so.

ROWELL: Okay. And so you were -- so do you remember kind of around the date that 00:42:00you left Khobar?

ULBRICH: No, we didn't. We didn't. I would say, it would have been like within the first two weeks we were in-country when we convoyed out.

ROWELL: And where did you go after Khobar?

ULBRICH: That's when we convoyed out to KKMC.

ROWELL: King Khalid Military City?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Okay. Yeah. And what was your unit assigned to do there?

ULBRICH: We were ordnance unit, and there was, I believe, three other ordinance units there. We ran one of the larger ammo dumps for the front lines.

ROWELL: For people who would be watching or listening, can you describe the function of an ammo dump?

ULBRICH: Ammo dump is -- you have every type of ammunition needed for war -- for 00:43:00the front lines. Bullets, bombs, LAWs. We even had missiles. They brought in some missiles and stuff. And we even had Patriot launchers right by us because, we were during the war, we were heavily bombed at with Scuds. He was trying to -- it would have been a fireworks show if he would have gotten us. He almost did. We had, we had one night.

ROWELL: And so can you tell me a bit? We will come back to that. Can you tell me a bit about the process of constructing that ammo dump at KKMC?

ULBRICH: The process.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Having everything, like strategically placed, you know, like what types 00:44:00of ammunitions, um, locations, you know, like systematically, you know, where you could just drive, pick up and also kept making sure that the ammunitions are covered because of the heat. Because there are sometimes we get so hot, we were afraid everything was going to start going up. It was pretty warm. Um, but yeah, everything had to be, you know. Um, what do you want to call it? I can't think of words right now. Organized, you know? You know, all the bullet-size bullets here, all this size ammunition here, all the LAWs over here, all the missiles, whatever we had over there. I mean, we have the larger missiles type, you know, like, down in, this, what do you call it, like a quarry area. There was -- like 00:45:00for the large, holding some large missiles that were there. I don't know what it was for, I just remember one day the semi coming in and there's so much security on it. I don't know what kind of missile took the whole length of the truck, but it was very secure and very quiet and hush-hush. I don't know what kind of missile -- what it was. They call it in, you know, back by the quarry area. And that was gone.

ROWELL: And people come at night during the day, all hours?

ULBRICH: All hours. I mean, we would have convoys of trucks coming in to pick up, for us to load all of ammunitions on the trucks to haul them to the front.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. And, um, you said there might have been other units working at that site, too? Do you remember what they might have been?

ULBRICH: They were other ordinance units.

ROWELL: No names, though.

ULBRICH: No, I can't remember.

ROWELL: Um, and then can you tell me a little bit about keeping the ammunition cool, how you did it?

ULBRICH: We had a lot of, uh, netting -- no, I want to call it? Camouflage netting that we would have covering it, hiding it. You know, to try and keep it disguised and trying to keep it as cool as we could.

ROWELL: Can you tell me more about other safety precautions that you took when you were working with the ammunition?

ULBRICH: No, that's about it.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. Or were there any like kind of like big nos that you would never do around that kind of thing? I mean, probably smoke, right. But anything else?

ULBRICH: Well, we had a whole -- you wanted to make sure when we're, when we're cleaning up and clean up all the ammunition, you know, we had to blow all the 00:47:00sand and wipe down all the like the LAWs and stuff like that for repackaging because we would have to repackage them to ship them back home. And then we the boxes and stuff that and crates that that were in, you know, we'd burn the old crates and some of the people that make sure that they're all out. Yeah. So we had one night where someone threw, there's a LAW still in it, and he threw it in the fire. We had a big, huge fire pit going. That thing went off with, thank goodness we weren't that close to the fire, because that would have killed someone.

ROWELL: Can you tell me a little more about what a LAW is?

ULBRICH: The LAW is, you know, a weapon that you use on the shoulder for for hitting, kind of like a missile through -- through the LAW. I guess, a handheld missile.

ROWELL: Makes sense.

ROWELL: Um, and then you mentioned actually earlier your MOPP Gear, um, which is mission oriented protective posture. Right. Um, just for the people watching. Right. And so that's like a big suit, right? With a mask. Can you tell me about using that?

ULBRICH: Yeah, it's a -- it's a charcoal suit, you know, with the mask, you know, the rubber -- rubberized mask that goes around the hood -- that would go around the. The whole suit was like a thicker type suit, warm for being over there. It was a charcoal suit. It wasn't used to be used so many times like we had to, because technically, you know, I don't know, I think, once. I don't know if she used it once or twice maybe, but, you know, as much as we used to and 00:49:00lived in it, the same suit, you know, the function for keeping us safe probably wasn't really functional anymore. But yeah, we -- beginning of the war we -- I learned real fast how to live in the MOPP suit. And, you know, I was a little claustrophobic at first, you know, with the, the headgear. But I eventually learned how to sleep with it because we always got, you always, the attacks were always like in the early morning. So we were going to bed sleeping with our MOPP Gear.

ROWELL: And can you tell me a bit about that charcoal piece? Was that kind of to, um, how did that protect you?

ULBRICH: You know, I really don't know how it protected me.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm.

ULBRICH: It was so worn out. You were always black.

ROWELL: Oh, yeah.

ULBRICH: So, I really don't know if it really protect or not.

ROWELL: Right. And what circumstances would you put it on for? Right.

ULBRICH: Any type -- any time like the Scuds were coming. Um, that was pretty much the only time we put them on, when there was Scud attacks coming.

ROWELL: Scuds being Iraqi missiles?

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: And can you tell me how much a notice you got when that, you know, how -- how much notice did you get to get that MOPP on? You know?

ULBRICH: Sometimes noth-nothing at all. Like when we were at Khobar Towers that night, we had no notice. And then it got better, then the sirens would start when Scuds were coming in. In the middle of the desert, we would get somewhat noticed, but not a whole lot. I remember that one night where that Scud blew up 00:51:00over us. No, we-we headed into our bunkers that we had dug out and stuff. Um, we had enough notice to get in there and get into our gear. That the attacks were coming.

ROWELL: So you dug separate bunkers to, like, as a protective measure when those Scuds come in?

ULBRICH: Yup.

ROWELL: Okay. Um, and did you ever take any pills that were supposed to protect you? Can you say about that?

ULBRICH: The bromide pills?

ROWELL: Yeah. Can you talk about that?

ULBRICH: Um, I only took one or two. Um, I-I don't know exactly what they were, I don't know if it was supposed to be for a chemical. Um, I know over at Khobar Towers I took one, and they told us to take one because of whatever exposures that they thought we were supposed to have. You know, to this day, I don't know 00:52:00why, what they were supposed to protect us with. Um, and it took, I think, maybe another one when we were at KKMC but then I found out that, uh, we were told, you know, from family back home that they're saying this stuff, you know, cause sterilization and stuff like that. So we had stopped taking them when we were over there. One of the girls had said this was the aftereffects, so I don't really know exactly what they were supposed to be.

ROWELL: Did you get in trouble for stopping taking them?

ULBRICH: No, not that. Um, you know, I tried to stop the anthrax shots, but that was, put a kibosh to. I didn't have a choice.

ROWELL: So did you take those pills? Um, like, after there was a Scud attack, was it a kind of a, um, protection after or before, like, preventative or?

ULBRICH: Yeah, I don't. I -- you know, back then, I would know what it was for, but now, you know, so many years.

ROWELL: Can't remember if it was before or after it happened? Okay. And can you kind of talk about, um, what a typical day was just like for you at the ammo dump, you know, working? Like if you think of, you know, just your time over there and it's, you try to kind of think about those more just moments that felt normal. What were those like for you at the time?

ULBRICH: Hot. [Rowell laughs] It was very hot. I don't know.

ROWELL: What kind of work did you do? Kind of one, on the daily. Were you helping people ferry like ammunition?

ULBRICH: Yeah. I mean -- in the beginning, you know, I helped set up, you know, our tents and stuff in our site and getting that ready. And then, after the war was over, the over part, whatever. That's kind of when I volunteered for the laundry service because, you know, we weren't really needed as much with doing the ammunition and stuff like that, until towards the end when we were packing up all the ammunitions. But so most, so most of the time, not all the time, when I was first there. You know, we helped load and unload the ammunitions and stuff and organizing, you know, the sections where to put all the stuff. But then I remember after the war is when-when I started with the laundry service at KKMC 00:55:00and we did all the units' laundries.

ROWELL: Can you talk about that? What was that like? Why did you volunteer for that?

ULBRICH: Well, because my-my MOS wasn't really needed at the time because they were, you know, after the war, you didn't have to sit there and haul all the ammunitions and loading and unloading as much. It was something to do to make the days go by because they were kind of long otherwise. It was kind of interesting, all the stuff that people had over, [laughs] had over there.

ROWELL: So it wasn't just like BDUs and, you know, your standard stuff, it was like people's own clothing that they thought they stuffed in their in their bags? Anything memorable?

ULBRICH: Oh, nothing I want to share. [Laughs]

ROWELL: [Both laugh] That's okay. Do you -- do you feel like you got a better 00:56:00sense for who you were, who you were kind of living with when you were doing laundry?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah.

Yeah. Some people really, uh, amaze me and their cleanliness and.

ROWELL: Speaking of that, can you talk about like kind of the living conditions when you're at KKMC. Like, I don't know, sleeping arrangements, like hygiene, showers, any of that stuff?

ULBRICH: Well, we-we had a big tent and we shared it. I think there 15 of us girls that all share the tent. And the higher ranked, there was like Sarah and April and, I think, Lisa, I think her name was they're higher, higher enlisted officers so they kinda got their own tent. Like E-5s or higher, whereas all us little peons E-5s and unders or whatever, you know, we got the big tent. It was 00:57:00quite interesting. It's interesting with all the different personalities that we had to share with. Um, some people are very clean, respectful. Some people were, um, we had a girl that when it was that time, it was so disgusting. She didn't use pads. She used other stuff, other than pads and didn't wash it out very often. So it kind of gathered a lot of stuff in the tent, which was not real great. Um. But it was -- it was interesting. The one time -- that one night we had a kangaroo rat come in the tent. They're actually kind of cute but little scary at the time. You should have see all of us, 15 girls up on our cots, screaming. [Laugh] This poor little kangaroo rat got traumatized. [Laugh]

ROWELL: Didn't know what I was getting into.

ULBRICH: Yeah, no kidding. We had some-some of the guys had some big, huge spiders come in. They-they weren't, I don't think were spiders that were from that country. Cause the spiders from that country were kind of like sand-colored tarantulas. And then the camel spiders. I mean, those things are big and aggressive. You know, I'm walking at night because that was the only time, you know, it was cool enough to walk. And I had my little dog Haji, um, that I saved from when, uh, when we went to KKMC, this, the little city area where this Saudi guy was kicking on and mistreating him. And I yelled at the guy for being 00:59:00abusive towards this dog.

So, I brought him back to our camp. So I named him Haji and I would take him for walks at night, and he's barking and barking. And I'm like, what are you barking at? Turn on my flashlight, here's this, like, big sand tarantula. That's all I can say it look like it's, you know, our black tarantulas, well, it's a sand tarantula. And he was like, scurtling after me. I'm like, oh, no. And they kept coming after me. And Haji is trying to intercept it. You know, it was kind of running. So I took it bigger, like I throw it on it. Oh, my God, that's nice. And then my friend Stoney, she took it, brought it home to, for keepsakes or whatever. But I'm like, okay. And then the next morning you'd go and you see like, slither marks. Well, here, I didn't know they had some big king cobras and 01:00:00all that stuff. And here I'm walking on the desert, you know, not even knowing what kind of stuff that they have.

ROWELL: Did they brief you at all? Did they prep you for that?

ULBRICH: No, not really. They didn't tell us about the big lizards and the big snakes and the poisonous. I mean, you know, they just warned us, you know, when we're sleeping in a sleeping bag to have over clothes in there, so. And to check our boots, and every time, you know, we get dressed, make sure everything shook out because stuff would get in there. But, yeah, it's kind of a culture shock for a Wisconsin person.

ROWELL: How did you deal with that? Did you were you kind of just on edge about it or did it just become normal?

ULBRICH: It just became normal, you know, shaking off stuff and screaming and screaming a few times.

ROWELL: Yeah. And things are too big to squish with a boot. That makes it scary.

ULBRICH: Yeah. Yeah. That's a little, and the scorpions and those black scorpions, because I remember some of the guys would have scorpions versus camel 01:01:00spider fights to see who would win, because it was a I think it was a camel spider. Not quite sure. I don't remember, but I just remember that one, that spider that they showed us that was in our tent. So, I'm kind of thinking they must have gotten on the ships, must have crawled in because white, the legs of that wide out. And they were, they had a black fuzzy body. Then the legs were the had black, fuzzy, but then they had like white lines in them that were fuzzy. So, I don't know, to this day I still don't know which kind of spider it was. I tried to find it.

ROWELL: Can you talk a little bit about taking care of -- taking care of Haji?

ULBRICH: Haji, he w- he was a pretty -- he liked us women. Um, he did not like guys. No, because he was abused by guys. Um, he was a good, he was a good little 01:02:00boy. I mean, I remember at night we sit there and watch the stars and, you know, as he'd sit next to me and lay down. When we're on the table -- I think there's a picnic table or something like that. Yeah, he was a good, cool little doggie. And then I came back one day, and I guess some of the guys in my unit took him and I don't know what happened to him because he growl -- he would grow at the guys. Like I said, he was abused from guys so he can trust guys.

ROWELL: So they took him?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Did you ever and you were never able to find out what happened?

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: How did you how did you feel about that?

ULBRICH: I mean, I was pissed.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: I was hurt, and I was sad. You know, back then, if I could figure out a 01:03:00way to bring them home. I mean, I think during the Iraq War is when they started to let people come home with their pets. I would have brought him home in a heartbeat. He was a sweetie. He had a hard life over there. They just -- they don't like dogs. I just can't understand. Oh, back to the showers, some of our guys that were very engineer based, um, took a semitrailer and did piping and did piping in this trailer for showers, and they made this tank outside. Lined it was some sort of liner, um, to put the water in. It would, the day would heat it up, so we'd have nice warm showers. But they used the diesel truck and water. It was a diesel and a water supply water truck. But I think one time they didn't 01:04:00wash all the diesel, so we took showers. It was like all diesel, and it was really gross.

ROWELL: How often do you get to take those showers?

ULBRICH: There is a rotating system with the guys and the girls. It was either every, every night or every other night. I can't remember.

ROWELL: How long did it take them to set that up?

ULBRICH: A little bit. Because at first, they had set up like tech showers, you know, for all the units, and they had water bladders for that. And people didn't like taking the community showers as much. So that's when they ended up making the semitrailer, so we don't have to share showers with how many different units.

ROWELL: So were they, was it just a couple of people at a time or was it just one person in the time? In terms of the semi-truck showers.

ULBRICH: Um, no, that was a whole group at the time.

ROWELL: But it was smaller than the big tent.

ULBRICH: Yeah, it was much smaller.

ROWELL: Yeah. Because it was just giant tents that had piping in.

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Were they, did they time you?

ULBRICH: Yeah. The tents did, the semitrailer? Yeah. You couldn't be in there because you know they only had so much water, so you had to be respectful for the next groups. I remember one night coming out of the shower and then we ended up having a sandstorm. It was like never took -- was like we never had a shower. Your hair was so grimy.

ROWELL: Can you say a little bit about the weather there to what that was like? Sandstorms, other stuff?

ULBRICH: A lot of sandstorms. Um, during the winter months, it got cold. I mean, 01:06:00there are some. You actually saw some ice. There's, like, one time in winter, there's a little water puddle. And you actually saw some ice during the wintertime, it got cold. The summers got extremely warm. I mean, we had some blackout days where it got into the, I want to say, 130s or 140s. That's a day where we're scrambling out in the ammo dump trying to put extra cover to try and keep them from getting overheated.

ROWELL: How did you deal with that, too? How did you, what were some ways that you could keep cool yourself? Was there anything? [Ulbrich shakes head] No.

ULBRICH: No. Our NCOs, they were in buildings, they got the nicer buildings. And they have air, and us, little peons, got the tents. We didn't get the 01:07:00air-conditioned tunnel towards the very end. Like maybe the last month or two that we were there. Did we get, like, they-they brought in more trailers or some air. Otherwise, we're in the tents all the time.

ROWELL: I think we'll take a pause just so we can reset the recorder.

ULBRICH: Okay.

ROWELL: Okay. [Laugh] So this, no you're good, this ends segment one of the interview with Cory Ulbrich on September 8th, 2022.

[End of segment one] [Beginning of segment two]

ROWELL: All right. So this begins segment two of the interview with Cory Ulbrich on August 8th, 2022. Um, so we left off talking about showers and hygiene at the camp. Did the do the ammo dump and like the camp, have names that you can remember?

ULBRICH: We just had our 395th ordinance sign.

ROWELL: Okay, and can you talk about your experience living there as a female soldier?

ULBRICH: Yeah. I mean, that wasn't with our guys that we had to worry about. It was the Saudi truck drivers and stuff like that that we had to worry about the Saudi people, Saudi guys, I should say. Um, you know, pretty much every probably every woman in my unit probably got physically attacked in some ways. I know I did when we were convoying. It was one of those little cities outside of Riyadh we have stopped at. I don't remember. We all had to go to the bathroom and in the back of these shops. Well, how they go to the bathroom and how we go to the bathroom, their bathroom is a hole in the ground. You know, it's a little covering, you know, over it. And we had to have a buddy system. And I was like 01:09:00the last one in line. And the person that went before me was supposed to wait for me. And so I'm going to the bathroom and they took off. And there's a Saudi dude hanging. And I'm like, I could tell right away what, you know, what was going to go down. Sure enough, you know, I came out and I he tries to sexually assault and, you know, he grabbed me inappropriately and was trying to force-force himself. And unfortunately, it was our M-16s at the time, we didn't have gun -- we didn't have any bullets with us. We just had the gun for looks. But I ended up punching him as hard as I could in the face. I got my hand free and punched him as hard as I could. It was enough to, with his glasses and 01:10:00stuff, to where I could break free and then run.

But I know other girls, like my friend [XXXXXXXX]. She got assaulted. She grew up having to punch someone. They heard of some of the other girls that worked in the animal dump area, during the war. They had to lock themselves in the car for safety. Um, so I'm sure there's probably even more girls that face the same thing. But, you know, I wasn't close to everyone there. But yeah, over there, the Saudi guys, you know, basically think you're a sex, a sex object. So that was kind of stuff we had to deal with was with them. Not so much people in my unit you had to worry about, it was them.

ROWELL: If you feel comfortable, would you, um, could you talk a bit about how, um, whether any of that was reported to your knowledge, to, uh, any of the senior enlisted NCOs or officers? Um, was there a response from them at all about it?

ULBRICH: I hadn't reported mine. Um, I don't know if [XXXXXXXXX] had reported hers. I don't know if [XXXXXXXXXX] had reported theirs. Um. I don't know if that time, even if it were at something, anything could have been done.

ROWELL: What did you feel about that?

ULBRICH: I felt we were pretty much on our own. You know, we had to defend 01:12:00ourselves. Um, I was angry. Like when that when the assault happened, I was angry at the person that was supposed to stay behind. You know, like, their supposed to. You know, when I got on the bus, you know, I. I got angry at the person, said thanks for staying, you know, watch over me and say what happened, you know, and I'm not going to say that from how many people. But, you know, I said angrily towards them. Yeah, I don't -- I don't know if anything would have been done. What are they going to do with the Saudi people? It's their country. I don't think they would have been done. Yeah, there could have been a situation that happened when I was on the Queen Mary ship or wherever it was. Or Queen 01:13:00Eliza- I don't remember what Queen ship that was where we were in Bahrain. There was a ship there that for people to have R&R and some of the staffing on there. If I would have probably reported him, something would have been done.

ROWELL: Um, is there anything that you think maybe would have made you feel more safe? That might have been, that could have been done at the time?

ULBRICH: Um, I know more handba-hand, hand combat training. You know, like karate or something where I could put the smack down on them. Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. As part of your kind of your basic. Yeah. Yeah.

ULBRICH: I mean, as a Wisconsin woman, you don't really worry about that stuff. 01:14:00Or maybe as anyone from the States really, as much have to worry about the. But, you know, there's all sorts of people, I guess. And over there it was kind of a, that's why they always had a different buddy system, because everyone knew at the side of you guys were not so great.

ROWELL: Did that come from more senior figures or was that something that was just shared among the other girls?

ULBRICH: No, that came from more senior. They always said that there should be like two of us. You know, because they've heard, you know, the attacks that went on by the Saudi guys.

ROWELL: So they were aware?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay. And was there anything else just living in the camp itself that you felt was unique to your experience living as a female soldier as opposed to 01:15:00some of the guys? Was there anything that you could that you might have thought was unique to kind of your experience or the experience of your friends?

ULBRICH: No, not really.

ROWELL: And you felt the treatment was pretty good between the guys in your unit and in the other units.

ULBRICH: And they're very respectful. Yeah. Yeah. We had this Captain [XXXXXX] that came with a unit that wasn't our original captain. I'm pretty sure he volunteered our unit to stay over after the war. Some more kudos to maybe become Major [XXXXXX], I don't know. That was his real name, [XXXXXX].

ROWELL: People have a field day with that.

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Um, no. I mean, it was just an experience of going to work together. Everyone did what they had to do. Um, we got through it together.

ROWELL: Did you feel as, you know, uh, as an enlisted person, did you feel like there was any kind of rapport with any of the NCOs or anything, or was it very separate from your experience?

ULBRICH: No, there's there is rapport with NCOs. But like some of the NCOs, you know, they kind of, you know, they were the guys that have been there for years and they were kind of their own, you know, true friend system. Um, but yeah, yeah. They did their things and we kind of did ours. There were, there were separate, there were, there were separate living. There always was that 01:17:00separate, but they still, you know, worked with us.

ROWELL: You kind of you described earlier kind of the old boys club that you felt was with the your-your ordinance group. Did that carry over into service, um, in Saudi Arabia when you were deployed, or was that unique to when you were in Wisconsin?

ULBRICH: I think that was unique when were in Wisconsin when we we're over in Saudi, you know, we all had to work more together.

ROWELL: Yeah. Was it some of the same people and they acted differently at home versus deployed or was it different people?

ULBRICH: Yeah, no, it was the same people. But, you know, when we were over and then the war scenario, you know, it's real now. You know, it's-it's not the same all training weekends or two-week training, you know, now we're in a real time 01:18:00situation where you got to take it seriously.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: So that's where it changed.

ROWELL: What were some of those specific ways that you felt you were treated when you were back in Wisconsin that were not as much a thing in, when you were deployed? Would you say? Some of the things that made you feel that it was kind of old boys club here that didn't carry over?

ULBRICH: Um. Kind of like the favoritism. Um. There's a group of NCOs that would disappear for lunch and not come back, you know, and that wasn't the case over there. They couldn't really do that. Yeah, the favoritism wasn't really as strong.

ROWELL: Was the favoritism along gender lines or was it kind of the same?

ULBRICH: It was along gender lines.

ROWELL: I think it's a favor to enlisted men or some enlisted men.

ULBRICH: Yeah, some. Or of course, some of the females, too.

ROWELL: Did you feel that was reflected at all in the training that you got, or maybe the way that people were promoted sometimes? How did that manifest from your perspective?

ULBRICH: Yeah, I thought, the way it helps some people who are promoted, you know, that especially had less time, and they get promoted past you. And when you're doing kind of like the same work and same stuff. Which you, really, you're not dumb. You can see.

ROWELL: Yeah. Was it kind of an open secret to your mind that people just kind of know that's how it was?

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Good boy. The good old boys system.

ROWELL: Yeah. Preferential treatment?

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, so can you talk a bit about kind of switching gears? Some of the souvenirs that you collected while you were deployed.

ULBRICH: Yeah. I mean, we, uh, we took a trip in. I mean, our unit, Captain [XXXXXXX] nominated us, or. Um. Would you call it? Not nominated.

ROWELL: Volunteered?

ULBRICH: Volunteered us.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: To clean up Highway to Hell because we're ordinance, so. I didn't get some of the stuff, but I know some of the guys. They brought back AKs. I only had like -- I brought back Iraqi chemical kit, an Iraqi uniform. I had some of the pamphlets that they threw out of the planes for the Iraqis. A lamp, just a 01:21:00kerosene lamp that I found in Kuwait while we were there. Um. I'm trying to think what else I had. Oh! A little Koran. When I was on Highway to Hell walk around, I find a little pocket Koran. Maybe like that big. [Shows size with hands] Both directions. It's just really small. That's about it. I mean, I didn't dig around too much.

ROWELL: Yeah. What? What kind of motivated you to pick that stuff up, do you think?

ULBRICH: Something different. Um, something to remember. That is was over in a war. Something to, I guess, you know, it was something in life that was so major 01:22:00that you just you were in some sort of remembrance that, yeah, I was truly here.

ROWELL: Yeah. Something tangible?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah, that makes sense. Um, was there any rules about what you could pick up and bring back, do you think?

ULBRICH: Well, I know we weren't supposed to bring the AKs back.

ROWELL: But it happened.

ULBRICH: You know, the guys kind of took them apart and hid them in like the truck. I think they put him in like the oil barrels. I think they put him in the truck gasoline areas or something like that, because our A Bags or B Bags or whatever you call them, they were checked.

ROWELL: The duffels?

ULBRICH: Our duffel bags. Yeah. You know, so you couldn't really have any weapons to bring home or gold or anything like that. But you know our, that was the Iraq war where we were. We didn't get any of that kind of souvenir stuff.

ROWELL: Can you talk a bit about, if you feel comfortable, that R&R experience 01:23:00that you mentioned with the ship in Bahrain.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Only as much as you want to.

ULBRICH: I had a little bit too much to drink, and there was a staff on that board from some other country. That uh- basically stuff that shouldn't happened, and thank goodness, the girl I was sharing the room with came in. And stopped. So.

ROWELL: And so this ship where you did, you basically take your R&R on that ship?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Was that kind of the-the vacation? [Laugh] was a little break.

ULBRICH: In essence, you know, we got to stay there. I don't know if it was like one or two nights. One of the only places we could have alcohol. You know, the Saudi part was pretty much dry.

ROWELL: Did you actually find that people were drinking at the camp or anything like that?

ULBRICH: Um, some of, or one of the NCOs came in contact with the Saudi guy that had made their own alcohol but it tasted kind of like jet fuel. It was so strong and icky. Come on, no, I'm not drinking that. And there are some, one of my friends there, her husband was sending her a bottle, like, every week. And my dad sent me a care package once, that had wine coolers and a couple of bottles of Southern Comfort. That was the only time, because there was a period of time 01:25:00where the packages were getting so backed up that they stopped checking them.

ROWELL: So do you know why that happened?

ULBRICH: Why they got backed up?

ROWELL: Yeah. What was that?

ULBRICH: You know, I don't know.

ROWELL: They just stopped coming for a while?

ULBRICH: No. They had so many packages that came. So they're just pushing packages through and, you know, they get caught back up, and I think that's when they're checking again. But, um. I know. Well, my dad sent me a package. One of my friends had sent me a canteen. Must have been like Everclear because it was so strong. And then my dad sent me a couple of bottles of Southern Comfort like that big. I sold one for 100 bucks. I kept one. But drinking on the dessert was not good.

ROWELL: Some people did anyway.

ULBRICH: Yeah, some people did anyway. I did it once and the hangover was so horrid, I never did it again. It doesn't pay. It's too hot out there.

ROWELL: Was it, do you think it was dehydration or?

ULBRICH: Oh yes.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: That heat. And because it was such a hot, hot heat, but it wasn't humid. It's just like a constant hairdryer on you.

ROWELL: Um, can you tell me a bit about, um, those chemical agent alarms going off in the camp? What were those? What do they look like? And then when did they go off?

ULBRICH: I don't remember the correct name for them? But they were very large. I mean, they probably stood up maybe that high. [Shows with hands] They're probably about like that wide across. [Shows with hands] And, you know, width. They were one of the bigger, huge ones that were detectors for any type of 01:27:00chemicals that would come in. And the only time, actually they went off twice. The times that they had gone off was during that Scud that blew up over a campsite. All of them or going off it. It wasn't just our detector. It was the next unit's detector and the unit. They all went off. Um, and then Captain [XXXXXX], that's when we were in the bunker. And we came out after the Scud blew up. I mean, that Scud. Couple of people were injured. Their tents were riddled with shrapnel. Um. Then we came out. Captain [XXXXXXX] said, you know, it was a malfunction. We could take off our MOPP Gear. And we did.

ROWELL: Um, how did any other officers react to that? Were they the same or was 01:28:00it just kind of his his word was good enough?

ULBRICH: Well, he's a captain, so we listened. Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. And were you skeptical at the time?

ULBRICH: Oh, yes.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: You have big, huge chemical detectors like that. And the only time they had gone off was when a bomb, an Iraqi bomb went off over our campsite. Or smoke-filled billows of smoke-filled chemicals come rolling through after they blow up the big huge bunker full of chemicals. Otherwise, they never went off.

ROWELL: Um, and so would you say the other enlisted or were skeptical like you were?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. Why do you think he made that decision, in your opinion?

ULBRICH: Not knowledgeable enough, I don't know.

ROWELL: Do you think it was lack of training or?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think, uh, Captain [XXXXXXXX] ever saw war. I don't know. I don't know why he would have made that decision. I think, to me, common sense was you would stay in the gear for a while until the alarms are, you know, we tried the alarms.

ROWELL: And so you were in KKMC in late January, right?

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: Um, there was an event, uh, in, on the 19th, uh, in '91, where a munitions factory was blown up in Iraq. Um, do you remember if that was around 01:30:00that time, was when there were alarms going off at all? You wouldn't have seen anything to go with it. Do you have any recollection of that at all or. No?

ULBRICH: Recollect- what I remember the most vivid was it was a beautiful, sunny, day. Clear blue sky. And I just remember whole big black, gray, billowy cloud come through our camp.

ROWELL: And so you, um, you mentioned to me that you that that was a bunker of weapons an ammo dump.

ULBRICH: Yeah, that was a Khami-Khami-Kham.

ROWELL: Khamisiyah?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Khamisiya or a Khamendiya? Is that how you pronounce it? I can't remember that. I can't remember the name anymore. I used to know it by heart. Um. Yeah. Khamendiya, it was. It wasn't real far from us. From the front lines, 01:31:00or wherever they-they blew that up. We were only, I don't know how many miles, from Iraq border. We weren't real far. Um. And I just remember after that was probably when my respiratory had changed.

ROWELL: Around March?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Was that? Cause, yeah.

ULBRICH: Because I was having problems coughing all the time, and in my lungs, coughing up stuff all the time. Yeah, I think that's when my breathing had changed.

ROWELL: On that day, do you remember, so you saw a plume, right? Did you know what it was when you saw it? Any idea?

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: And how did, like how did the captain react? How did other people react? Did they immediately, like, put on their MOPP Gear? What-what happened?

ULBRICH: No, I think I don't know what we're thinking. You know, some sort of explosion, but we didn't know it was like chemicals.

ROWELL: Right.

ULBRICH: That we put our MOPP Gear or anything.

ROWELL: Until the alarms went off.

ULBRICH: Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different things that happened. And we had the oil wells burning, but also put that kind of smoke billowing through our campsite. I really don't know what-what it would have been from. We didn't know that they had blown up anything.

ROWELL: Right. Do you remember if it. Do you remember at all how it smelled, maybe? What that smoke was like when it came all the way, rolled through?

ULBRICH: I don't know if it's more like a sulfery type, you know, like whatever chemical compounds that they use up when you blow up stuff. You know, I can't try to, it's-I don't know how to explain it. Like when-when they do those bombing scenarios, it's kind of, I don't know if it's a sulfery type smell?

ROWELL: It's like. It's like a. Almost a gunpowdery?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWELL: Did it smell like, like a typical kind of ignition or did it smell different to you at all?

ULBRICH: I would say mixture. I mean, I don't know if there's a smell of sarin or if there's a smell to any chemicals or mustard. I don't know.

ROWELL: Yeah, I don't know either. [Laugh] That's.

ULBRICH: Yeah, I didn't get that. But, you know, just like a fire, you know, like a fire chemical smell.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so you remember that came through and the alarms went off. How did you feel, what did you, what did you think at the moment?

ULBRICH: Here I go again.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah. Run! Change.

ROWELL: And so you are having respiratory problems right after?

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: And you mentioned to me that you felt sick and have a number of different symptoms going on while you were deployed. Did that start, did any of that start, um, before um, March or did, and or was that around when the Scud was destroyed above the camp? I mean, do you know what that timeline kind of was?

ULBRICH: I got, I ended up getting, I think, more sick after the war, after they had called, that they said the war was done, you know, end of the war is when I was noticing with a lot of my sicknesses, you know, a lot of the bathroom trips, the breathing, the coughing was after the war.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. So it took a little while?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: You feel like, okay, and so you were having stomach problems?

ULBRICH: And digestive, diarrhea, you know, I thought I had, what do they call it? Montezuma Revenge.

ROWELL: Traveler's stomach, kind of?

ULBRICH: If you drink water, that's tainted, you know, like in Mexico.

ROWELL: Yeah. Parasite. You get parasites or bacteria. Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah. I thought that's what it was from then. And plus, you know, over 01:36:00there, we had to burn, they call burning the crappers. Where you have to use diesel and gas. And, you know, I had stuff fly up on my face, you know, So I didn't know if I get sick from that. I just know that I was running to the toilet. Stoney had a diary that she's, like, writing in it, "Well there goes Ulbrich to the shitter again." You know, it's like I was constantly running to the toilet. And I know when I was in Bahrain, I had, uh, we were at one of the hotels there for another R&R break, and I had just brush my teeth. And all of the sudden, I was so sick. I mean, I couldn't even get off the toilet when everyone had to go -- they went shopping and I'm like -- I had to sit on the toilet all day with the worst cramping. And, uh, it was bad. So I thought, you 01:37:00know, I had dysentery. That's what I was trying to say, dysentery. But it continued on. And then towards the end when we were there, it ended up being, you know, infections and stuff and rashes and and breathing and-- and all that over there. I don't know where the rashes -- why the rashes were.

ROWELL: Were they -- can you, can you describe that a little bit?

ULBRICH: They were like sores all over my head. They were pusy. They break and stuff like that.

ROWELL: No explanation.

ULBRICH: No explanation. Or the rashes I get on my-my legs for almost like a year, they would get real thick.

ROWELL: And were you -- did you notice anyone else have any symptoms like you did when you were there?

ULBRICH: Um, when we went to a ten-year reunion, I found out people had the same type of digestive and the rashes. I actually worked with one of the girls that was in my unit for a while because we both had gone into corrections, and she had a lot of, like, rashes and facial problems and, you know, like, skin problems.

ROWELL: And that was after you had come back from deployment.

ULBRICH: Um, yeah, I had mine over there.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: She got hers, you know, after.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. Um, did you ever get checked out by a medic or, or go to the clinic?

ULBRICH: The only, the only thing that they did like when we got back from Saudi, at Fort McCoy, it was just a small little screening, health screening. 01:39:00And, you know, I told them, you know, I told them I was having breathing problems and coughing up stuff and and but they had, I forgot, no, I didn't tell them about the infection I ended up getting because I was, um, because of the area where it was located. So I was kind of embarrassed. And then they had rashes, I didn't kind of tell them because I was kind of embarrassed.

ROWELL: Did anybody else notice you were sick when you were over there?

ULBRICH: Yeah. My sergeant, Fitzgerald, she did. Um, Stoney and [Frevert??], they knew I was sick. And they were all witnesses.

ROWELL: What did they think? Do you know what -- did they have any theories? When you were over there what it could be? Why?

ULBRICH: No. No. I just know when I was home -- when I got home I was sick for 01:40:00quite a while and I didn't go to the doctor. It got so bad to the point where my mom had to help me get me in the car and get me to the doctor. And then the doctor, it was at Le Salle Clinic at the time in Neenah, which is no longer there, and the doctor, you know, they all think you're a hypochondriac or you don't, you know, it's kind of like, ehhhhhhhhh whatever, you know, checked me out, and then when he did that one test, they turned away and almost fainted, you know. And then he knew it was serious. And he knew -- he said I was septic and, you know, they got me into the hospital that day. I had to go through surgery, so I had an infection. It took like three surgeries to get all the infection out of me.

ROWELL: And that started while you were deployed?

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So--

ROWELL: Did you feel like there was any? Did you have the impression at all that you either your veteran status or your status as a woman had any impact on the way you were received with your, you know, when you're experiencing these symptoms?

ULBRICH: No. No.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: You know, he didn't know at the time. You know, I didn't know what it was, you know, when I first got back from the Gulf, I, you know, I didn't realize a lot of that stuff was over there. I just know I was a healthy 21-year-old when I went over. I got sick at 22 over there.

ROWELL: When you were over, uh, when you were deployed or when you're prepping for deployment, were you ever told, um, we're ever informed about any health risks? Like, uh, you know, um, do they tell you what could happen if you were 01:42:00exposed to any of those chemical agents? Or did they tell you that, like, Scuds were dangerous when they broke apart other than the shrapnel?

ULBRICH: No, I just said it would be filled with sarin or some sort of chemicals that are. They're mostly afraid, like with anthrax and stuff like that. Um, I mean, that's why they did the anthrax shots.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: No, not really. We didn't know what the cause is. I mean, I had no clue about sarin, what it did. I mean, we didn't know what kind of chemicals that he had and what was going to be the outcome or physical conditions that it does or affects. But I did read the article when they blew up that Khamadi--Khamadio.

ROWELL: Khamisiyah.

ULBRICH: Khamisiyah, bunker. Um, I had an article years ago where they had to 01:43:00remove 30 troops right away for respiratory distress. And then when I went back to the because I tagged it on my computer, when I went back to it, all of the sudden, it was 404 file not found. But I did print it off.

ROWELL: Um. Talking about kind of your how you were informed or not informed about some of this stuff. We'll come back to them later parts of your deployment, but just for now. Um, would you, um, would you personally describe the symptoms that you experience as Gulf War illness or syndrome? Is that how you identify it or no?

ULBRICH: Yes, because there's so many, like in my unit, there's so many of us have the same kind of problems that were going on, you know, digestive, um, 01:44:00rashes, memory, cancers, um, breathing, you know, like my, my, my, uh, rheumatoid doctor for my fibromyalgia. He treats other Gulf War vets because you guys all have the same things. He's like, there's no way you guys haven't been exposed to something when you guys all have the same stuff. So even he knows.

ROWELL: Um, were you ever notified by the VA or even the DOD that you were in a has in the hazard area for Khamisiyah?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Yeah, they-they sent me a listing of all the units that were exposed from the plume.

ROWELL: How did you feel when you got that letter?

ULBRICH: I was pissed off. Because now I know what ran through our camp, and now 01:45:00I knew why I wasn't breathing right. You know, I even had, when I was trying to fight for my breathing problems, because, you know, they have, they've gotten worse over the years. I had a VA comp doctor put in my medical file that I had asthma as a child. I never had asthma as a child. I mean, you can clearly see when I joined the military, I never had asthma, you know, and for him to lie like that, I was just dumbfounded. I'm like, seriously, how can you be a doctor when you sit there and lie on records? You know, it just, I don't know, it's just really breaks-breaks the that they don't want to take care of admit to 01:46:00things, you know?

ROWELL: Can you talk a little more if you want to, about, um, your experience seeking veteran care, whether that was with the VA or another organization, maybe? Just that experience for you.

ULBRICH: Frustration, anger. Um. I mean, I had a female test done years ago, and it came back as a bacterium, which back then was only known to, you know, Saudi. But then they came back saying it was a malfunction on a test, we're gonna test you again. Now, back then I was having a lot of female problems, too. You know -- and when I was having breathing ailments in the early 90s when I came back, 01:47:00you know, my doctor at the time, she just handed me a rescue inhaler. This is civilian doctor, though. I mean, it wasn't a VA doctor. So, you know, it's just it's just frustrating.

ROWELL: So looking at the symptoms, but not the not the source.

ULBRICH: Yeah. Yeah. Not making connections, but it's like, how can you not make connections? Because you saw my health records from before I was over to right after and home, all the illnesses came on and progressed.

ROWELL: And where did you seek care from, like, health care from the VA right away? Or did you -- did you start with civilian doctors? Mostly?

ULBRICH: Mostly civilian. I did a little VA, but, I mean, that's when I, for my 01:48:00balls and stuff I wasn't with the VA. My respiratory I was with the civilian because I get so frustrated with the VA at the time. Yeah, I was-- I was in civilian until 2019.

ROWELL: So what what brought that change about for you?

ULBRICH: Because I had to medically retire.

ROWELL: Did you seek? Um, any sort of, like, service connected? Um. Like, did you seek to establish a service connection with your symptoms from the beginning or?

ULBRICH: Yeah, from-- yeah, from the beginning. Um, it was, you know, because they couldn't deny my, my, my [poles??] And my rashes and stuff because it was so prevalent, you know, you could see it through my civilian doctors and stuff 01:49:00like that, and surgeries. Um. I lost track.

ROWELL: Talking about connecting, you know, establishing a connection between your symptoms and service. Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah. Um, you know, I fought for years trying to get connection with the, you know, through the VA. Oh, my gosh, many years of, you know, with my fibro, um, with my tiredness, you know, my breathing. Um, I finally had to hire a lawyer because especially with the, the crack, you know, breaking the back was the, the VA comp doctor lying about my breathing and saying I had asthma as a child. So I just hired a lawyer. So I told my lawyers and look through my 01:50:00medical records. You don't see any breathing ailments on there until after. And it's even in my records, when I came home from Saudi, they still denied me for it.

ROWELL: So how did that go? What was that process like?

ULBRICH: It was frustrating, you know, the VA know, you know, you look at what the Vietnam vets had to go through. You know, they wait and they wait. They keep denying and denying, you know, until so much, so many of us are dead. And then after we're dead, "Oh yeah, they were exposed to whatever." And that's the bad part, it's like you want us to fight to do your battling, you take care of us because, you know, you put us in harm's way. You know, you get a bad rap, rep? 01:51:00Not taking care of your, you know, just because you can't see, you know, that I don't have a limb blown off that there's nothing wrong. There's something wrong. You know, it's like, take care of your people. Otherwise, you're not going to have people join in, you know, take care of them.

ROWELL: Um, so recently there was some new studies that came out that really seem to confirm that Gulf War syndrome or Gulf War illness is caused by sarin exposure. Um, did you you had you heard about that?

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: Yeah. Is it, um. There's a researcher who's been working on this since the early 2000s. And, you know, it seems pretty definitive. How do you feel about that, knowing that other people know that? Because it seems that you feel pretty strongly that the sarin was was related to your symptoms, right?

ULBRICH: Yeah, because I was healthy.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: I was healthy as can be when I was over there until the Gulf, till the war hit and getting sprayed with all that crap. All of the sudden I'm sicker of than.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: You know, I worked many years. I had to take a prison job so I could have health insurance -- so I could be near a toilet, because otherwise I was doing UPS, RPS [Roadway Package System], and having to carry a bucket in my truck with toilet paper because I couldn't make it to a toilet in time. I mean, I'm young. I shouldn't have to do that. You know? I'm pissed. You know, I'm still kind of pissed because at 22, my whole life kind of really took a complete change. I couldn't do all the things I did. You know, I couldn't go on a hike. You know, I couldn't go on a bike ride, you know, away from the bathroom. You 01:53:00know, I couldn't do a lot of the stuff I used to do. I couldn't play sports because, "oh, time out, I've got to go to the bathroom," [laugh] you know? You know, it's just and the breathing, you know, it's-- I couldn't breathe. You know, one time I was in my backyard in the early 90s. I was having such an attack, I couldn't breathe. My nose is bloodied and I'm coughing and gagging, and I couldn't catch my breath. I had some person on the front of the sidewalk asking if I need help. You know. And the VA just keeps denying it. You know, it's kind of a slap, especially when the VA doctor said that, I'm like. Yeah. It's life changing. Have the health taken away. Can we take a break?

ROWELL: Absolutely.

[End of segment two] [Beginning of segment three]

ROWELL: Today is September 20th, 2022. This is an interview with Cory Ulbrich, continuation of part one on August 8th, 2022. Cory Ulbrich served with U.S. Army from 1987 to 1995 and was deployed overseas during Operation Desert Storm. This interview is being conducted by Kate Rowell in the Menasha, Wisconsin at the Menasha Public Library. The interview is being recorded for the I Am Not Invisible Project and Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. Okay. So, Cory, last time we left off talking about your experience getting care at the VA and your experience with some of the doctors there. And we were also discussing your deployment. So, let's begin and this is, I think, segment three. So, let's 01:55:00begin by circling back to your deployment. So, after you had your experience with this Scud that came in, um, we talked about that. Um, what-- so what was kind of the end of your deployment look like, especially as the war started to wind down?

ULBRICH: Then just went into cleaning mode, pretty much getting all of our ammunitions cleaned up to ship back home, taken out of their existing crates, and then re-crating them, cleaning them off, and then re-crating them for shipping back. We also were part of the cleanup crews for what they called Highway to Hell, trying to clean up all the ammunitions and unspent ordnances that were there as we bombed Iraqis coming out of Kuwait.

ROWELL: Okay. Is that also called the Highway of Death, do you think?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Okay. All right.

ULBRICH: We always it's called Highway to Hell.

ROWELL: Make sense. Yeah. And so when exactly So what exactly did your unit move into Kuwait?

ULBRICH: We didn't move into Kuwait. We weren't far from Kuwait. You know, we drove there to do the cleaning and drove back. We were in the middle of the desert at KKMC, King Khalid Military City.

ROWELL: And then can you describe the experience of-of that kind of convoy that you-you took into-into that area?

ULBRICH: The Highway of Hell itself?

ROWELL: Yeah. And you mentioned that you had -- you were moving through Kuwait, and you saw--

ULBRICH: Oh, all the damages?

ROWELL: Yeah the damaged oil wells. Can you describe that for me?

ULBRICH: Yeah. When we we're going through into Kuwait, all the oil wells. I mean, you couldn't miss it because it was just black. Alls you could do-- see was the flames. And then it was the huge black moments of smoke that were just lingering and holding in place. And, um, yeah, it was quite the sight to see. I 01:57:00never seen anything quite like it. Um, you know, so we're in that -- into that, you know, us being naive, not knowing, you know, how bad it is for your health. You know, you don't learn until you get sick, I guess.

But yeah, it was quite interesting. Um, I met some Syrian soldiers there, to get my pictures taken with the bazooka. With the Syrian soldier, but do you think I could find that picture again? No. I got it somewhere in the house. But also, we went into Kuwait, saw the damage, you know, the blown-out airport, the buildings and things like that. Um, also, when we're cleaning up Highway to Hell, I mean, that was quite extreme damage, you know, burnt, burnt, busted-out vehicles, you know, blown-up vehicles, body parts, charred parts. I mean, it was in the 01:58:00stench. It's not cool -- it's pretty disgusting and sad.

ROWELL: Um, can you talk a little bit about how you how you handle that?

ULBRICH: At that time? You -- I don't know how to explain it, you're kind of numb. You really don't feel, at least that was me. I mean, I felt numb. I didn't really feel at the time. It was, it was just weird. It's like I didn't care what happened. You know, if you know, if I died, I died. I mean, I just, just really incredibly numb.

ROWELL: And for how long were you feeling that way during your deployment?

ULBRICH: Um, pretty much almost the whole time. I mean, when I first got 01:59:00in-country, I wasn't. But as the time went on, you know, when the war did start, and the bombs started flying at us. Yeah, it became prevalent through pretty much the whole time we're out in the middle of the desert, during the war time.

ROWELL: Were you cognizant of that while you were there? You were thinking, wow, I'm feeling really different? Or did you kind of reflect on it after?

ULBRICH: Um. Kind of after because-- yeah, I guess, you know, because I would get yelled at by the officers and, you know, not really, not really caring. It's like, what would you do? Send me home? You know. So I did get-- you know, I did, I don't know how to explain it. It was just very numbing. You know, it really 02:00:00didn't faze me either way. You know, I don't know, maybe I was angry. I don't know. Because of some of the stuff that had happened to me. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, not just with the bombings, but with the altercations, you know, with Saudi guys or some of the attacks that did go on, you know, like on the ship that we went on for R&R. I don't know if that was a contributing factor. I'm assuming it is. But yeah. I didn't really pay attention until I can look back. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I didn't feel-- it took a long time when I go for that to, you know, come back.

ROWELL: Yeah. We'll come back to that. Um, can you-- do you feel comfortable at 02:01:00all describing any more of what you saw on the Highway? Uh, Highway of Death?

ULBRICH: Um. I saw, you know, body limbs, burnt out body limbs. Um. Yeah, so, I mean, you know, when you're numb, you just know-- average person, if they had to see that, they'd probably be freaking out. But yeah, it just didn't, I mean, the odors that were there, the stenches that were there were horrid. Um, but yeah, I mean, I just came across, you know, the blackened sand, you know, and all the vehicles that were all bombarded and ripped apart. You know, and I'm touching all that stuff and, you know, and I'm crawling through the vehicles and, you know, I come across part of an arm, you know, a charred-out, missing arm and, thank goodness I didn't see it. I mean, there is much more. But at that time, 02:02:00the bodies, most of the bodies were cleaned up except for stuff that was too mangled in the vehicles and stuff. Yeah, it was -- war is ugly. Because I went back through when I was printing off my pictures and I'm like, it brought tears to my eyes, you know, at that time, you know, I couldn't -- I couldn't look at it the same way as I can look at it now. How ugly it truly is.

ROWELL: Do you want to pull out any of the photos or do you want to leave them as they are? Um. You are welcome to do whatever you whatever you like.

ULBRICH: No, I'll leave them. Because there's a lot of photos for us to try and get through, otherwise.

ROWELL: It's true. Yeah. And so the photos we're talking about are on the disk.

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: That you are donating to the museum?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Do you want to describe for us the recording of who took them and what they are of.

ULBRICH: Sergeant Paul that took them. They were of our unit working out, you know, in the middle of KKMC in the desert, we ran the largest ammo dump for the frontlines. I mean, we held all the ammunitions, you know, from bullets all the way to missiles to LAWs and all that stuff. Um, you know, it wasn't just our unit that ran the dump. There's, I believe, two or three-- two or three other units, ordinance units that helped run this ammo dump because it was quite large. And so he is the one that took all the pictures of all the daily business that went on in our unit.

ROWELL: Okay. And so, and you said that there were images of the Highway of 02:04:00Death on that as well?

ULBRICH: Yes. Um, it was very. Censorship. Not faint of heart.

ROWELL: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, would you like to speak about some of the members that, you that of your unit that helped clean up pretty intensively at the Highway of Death?

ULBRICH: I don't remember. Names are not real good with me anymore. Especially, the only one I can remember is the one who died.

ROWELL: Carl Zabel?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Okay. Um, and that's Z-A-B-E-L?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Do you want to talk about Carl?

ULBRICH: Carl, he was a real sweet guy. He was a good guy. Um. Nice. Fun. Um. You know, middle-of-Wisconsin boy. He was-- he was one of them that was over cleaning up Highway to Hell. And he got sick. And you know, you went to the-the 02:05:00medical, you know, and the doctor said, you know, you're fine. You know, just go back the next day. And he was not fine. He ended up supposedly with pneumonia. I don't know how you get pneumonia. I mean, I do know whatever we were exposed to, I had breathing ailments when I was over there. You know, at that time, I didn't know what it would have been cause from. But I think, and I don't know if it's the same time, but if that's when the bunker blew up, when they blew up the big, huge bunker full of chemicals, if that affected him.

ROWELL: And that had happened a couple of months before.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: So, I don't know. I don't understand how you would have, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but how do you get pneumonia in the desert?

ROWELL: But you remember him getting sick?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: And him getting, him having respiratory problems?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: And they decided to bring him to Germany, is that correct?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Within a few days, he ended up in the ICU unit. I think at KKMC, he was on the respiratory ventilators, and, um, they were trying to get him stabilized enough to fly him to Germany. And he died enroute to Germany.

ROWELL: Did they give you any -- did they give you the news that he had passed?

ULBRICH: [Nodding affirmatively] Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: Okay. And what did they say about that?

ULBRICH: Um, they were kind of tight-- no, I don't know, you know, they just said that, you know, he had passed, but they're more tight, tight lipped on, you know, what the causes of him passing and what happened to him. So I don't know 02:07:00really. All I know it was pneumonia and whether I just was it or not, I don't know.

ROWELL: And did some of the officers tell you? Tell your unit?

ULBRICH: Yeah, well, we were all gathered together. You know, we all knew he was sick. I mean, we-we had a chance to go see him at KKMC, when he was on all the ventilators, I'm pretty sure was KKMC? Just remember the room with all the ventilators, just kind of there.

ROWELL: Yeah. And what if what did everyone else think, too? Did anybody have any comments or think, you know, they knew why he was sick?

ULBRICH: Well, a lot of us, well, you know like the girls that hang around we thought from them being exposed to some of the stuff from cleaning up, you know, or the chemicals, you know, that were used.

ROWELL: So chemical weapons or. Or like chemicals that happen to be hazardous?

ULBRICH: Um. Um. Both. I mean, I don't know. When we're cleaning up Highway to Hell, you don't have any clean up suits of any kind. You know, if that's where you got it from, I don't know.

ROWELL: Um, and did they give you any sense when you went to go to the Highway-- Highway of Death, did they tell you to be cautious of anything? Did they? Was there any precautions that you saw at all, or was it just bare hands?

ULBRICH: [Affirmative nod] Mm-hmm. Some, some take some, I saw some of the guys, I don't know if they were in their MOPP Gear?

ROWELL: I was wondering if you had, if they had, because you mentioned the MOPP Gear.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: And wearing it often. But you also said that it was starting to wear out. It was turning your arms kind of black from the charcoal? Yeah. So and so there wasn't really much of that.

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: Okay. Good to know. Um. Do you -- is there anything else about that period that you want to talk about? Like maybe what they sent you to physically do, so you said clean up? But do you want to talk about the process of doing that? Like what you were, what you were actually doing when you went out there onto the road?

ULBRICH: When I was on Highway to Hell, I wasn't at that time cleaning up. I was at the time looking at the destruction that was done. But I do know my unit was clean up there. You know, a lot of AKs were brought back. And dismantled and brought home. But they also recovered a lot of unspent bombs or ordnances that weren't- that didn't go off. Unspent ammunition. That was basically what our job 02:10:00detail was.

ROWELL: Did you talk about how you obtained your Iraqi gear that you have?

ULBRICH: That was when I was on Highway to Hell.

ROWELL: Okay. You want to talk about that, where you found that? Do you remember?

ULBRICH: Um, well, actually, it was -- some of the stuff was on Highway to Hell. The chemical, chemical, I don't know what they call it.

ROWELL: Like a hood or a suit?

ULBRICH: No, it wasn't a suit. It was a chemical -- like a kit.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Like a chemical kit.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: That I found on Highway to Hell. I found a little Koran, a pocket Koran, you know, between some of the vehicles when I was looking. Um, the uniforms I found when were in Kuwait.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Doing some of the bunkers, I ended up getting some of the uniforms 02:11:00there, that they vacated, lanterns, and stuff like that.

ROWELL: And you have those at your home, and you intend to donate them to the museum?

ULBRICH: Um, yeah.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Some, most of them. But not all of them.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: The lantern, I collect lanterns.

ROWELL: Oh, okay.

ULBRICH: But all the uniforms and chemical kits and some of the-the what the woman wear over there, I can't remember what they're called.

ROWELL: The just kind of religious--

ULBRICH: White gowns.

ROWELL: Religious gowns.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Um, and can you talk a little bit about those bunkers and finding them what that was like for you? Going through them, what were the circumstances of them?

ULBRICH: Just going through them. Just to see. Um. Can't really, just them being 02:12:00dug out, sandbags, that's all I can kinda remember.

ROWELL: So it's kind of earth walls, not concrete?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Yeah, there were kind of, there was, I think there are sandbags. I don't know if they were concrete or not, now that I think about it. I thought they were sandbags, but they're kind of dug in.

ROWELL: Just dug into the desert.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, you mentioned the Koran. Did that have a particular resonance for you at all, finding that Koran?

ULBRICH: No at the time was just something different, you know?

ROWELL: Right. You-you brought this time with you, your Bible that you had with you when you were deployed. Do you want to take that -- take that out and kind of bring that up to the camera and see it, and we can talk a bit about it. Talk a bit about your faith while you were over there, what that meant to you. What 02:13:00that was like for you.

ULBRICH: Well, basically, you can't get through without your higher power, I know that.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm.

ULBRICH: It was. Yeah. But basically, over there, my faith wasn't nearly as strong as what it is now because of the things. Yeah, I wish that my faith was a lot stronger, but doing -- going through all this -- you know, with the Gulf War illness and the change in the life. I give credit to the Lord for helping me get through things. The hard days, the struggles, the illnesses. The attacks.

ROWELL: Do you want to hold it over here so we can see?

ULBRICH: My banged-up Bible?

ROWELL: Yep. [Laugh]

ULBRICH: All taped up? [Laugh]

ROWELL: Yeah. Did it? Did you have to tape it up while you were over there?

ULBRICH: No, no.

ROWELL: No, just since.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Do you- and I see that there's some highlight and passages in there.

ULBRICH: Oh, yeah.

ROWELL: Did you highlight them while you were over there?

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: No, that was since?

ULBRICH: This has all been since.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Do you remember if there was anything in particular that was important to you that you read while you were over there?

ULBRICH: Well, the Lord's Prayer.

ROWELL: Did you say that for yourself?

ULBRICH: Yeah. I even wear it for myself. [Raises arm to display wrist]

ROWELL: Right. [Ulbrich laughs] Um, did you, do you feel like anything that you experienced during your deployment had an impact on your relationship with your faith at all?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Um. Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, I'm glad, you know, I 02:15:00didn't have to kill anyone, because that would have been, that would have been pretty much a wrenching, you know, if you live by your Ten Commandments, thou shalt not kill. And then we are over there, killing. So I'm glad I didn't have to do that part of it. Um. Yeah, I just. I'm losing track here.

ROWELL: That's okay. We can also take a break if you like.

ULBRICH: Yeah, No, I'm just like, clarity is kind of going on me here.

ROWELL: Take your time.

ULBRICH: Okay.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, are there any specific moments that you can recall for yourself, any kind of images or moments that stick out in your mind?

ULBRICH: Of?

ROWELL: Um, maybe that maybe related to your faith or thinking about, you know, 02:16:00thinking about God, thinking about your higher power or. Or not or something else, you know?

ULBRICH: No, I was too numb. My faith was not like it is now. Over there at that time, I could not feel.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: And things to not phase me. I think that's how, too, you kind of get through things when you don't feel. Where you are not so sensitive, you know, to what's going on around you. I think that's kind of like the escape mechanism to be able to tolerate all the stuff that you're going through at the time.

ROWELL: Definitely. Um, can you talk about, we'll come back around to that. 02:17:00Would you like to, before we --- as we're talking about your deployment show your, show your hat as well, to the camera that you've brought today. Um, it's got Operation Desert Storm, '90, '91, Saudi Arabia on there. And then you want to talk about your ribbons there?

ULBRICH: And all the medals.

ROWELL: All the medals.

ULBRICH: From being over there.

ROWELL: Do you want to talk about them? Do you want to go through them? We can -- if we bring them over a little, we can. You don't have to.

ULBRICH: You want me to try to remember every which one?

ROWELL: Just ones, just, just as much as you can, you know? Or if you don't want to. We all have to. That's okay too.

ULBRICH: [Looking at medals on hat] The achievement medals. The South Asian medals. The Saudi medals. The Iraqi. I cannot remember the yellow one.

ROWELL: And you got that while you, you had that while you were over there. Was it embroidered after?

ULBRICH: No, I got it embroidered over there.

ROWELL: Oh, okay.

ULBRICH: Um, yeah. I can't remember this one. What it's called.

ROWELL: That's okay.

ULBRICH: I know this achievement.

ROWELL: I'll take a picture afterwards.

ULBRICH: Military achievement, the Iraqi. I cannot read because my eyes are too bad. [Laughs] Sorry.

ROWELL: That's all right. And like I said, we'll take a picture after of it, to document it.

ULBRICH: I was going to say, my favorite one, I kind of like is the Saudi one that they gave us. I mean, the real metal is really pretty. I just think it's very pretty. Gold.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, do you want to hold it so we can make sure to see it? Which one you're talking about here? If we hold it up over there towards. Towards where the mic is, I think. [Ulbrich indicates medal] Yeah. There we go. Okay. 02:19:00Um, and then, um, so when did your, when did you deployment end?

ULBRICH: We got back in August of '91.

ROWELL: And, um, do you remember the process of coming home? Do you remember that journey back?

ULBRICH: I guess we flew home on a Trump plane.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm.

ULBRICH: I didn't remember that, but we had pictures of it at camp, was it Camp Douglas or something like that? Over by Fort McCoy.

ROWELL: A what plane?

ULBRICH: A Trump.

ROWELL: Oh.

ULBRICH: Trump donated his-his planes to fly us home.

ROWELL: Oh, interesting.

ULBRICH: Yeah, I didn't even know that until Stoney showed me a picture. I'm like. Oh, my gosh. [Laugh] You know, we came -- was it Camp Douglas? I can't 02:20:00remember, it was over by Fort McCoy, the Air Force Base. Camp-- that might be Camp Douglas. My memory is not as great as it used to be, but I remember we flew home, were in the hangar, all the relatives there waiting. Um, you know, of course, my dad had taken video, but that got lost along-- many years ago. Got taped over, so. But, yeah, I remember coming home and then coming home to Appleton, where I'm on back of these trucks, truck trailers and doing a parade through Neenah all the way back to Appleton. Um. People throwing beers. And that was like the bomb, you know, after not being able to drink for, what was it, eight, nine months. So, yeah.

ROWELL: How'd that make you feel in general that, that whole parade experience?

ULBRICH: That was actually surreal. I mean, you know, when you think about it like when Vietnam came home, you know, they get total opposite. You know, and I'm glad the people got it right when we go home. You know, I wish the Vietnam vets could have had that. Um, but yeah, it was very surreal. It was very humbling.

ROWELL: It was humbling?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWELL: How so?

ULBRICH: Well, just that, you know, all the people took time to really come out and show their gratitude and, you know, their happiness and support for us.

ROWELL: So you felt supported and you felt supported by your family, too?

ULBRICH: Oh, yeah.

ROWELL: And who came to meet you at the airport?

ULBRICH: My mom and dad and my young- young sisters at the time, I think Calla would have been like grade school age, and my middle sister. They're all there.

ROWELL: Do you want to say their names really quickly? Your siblings' names?

ULBRICH: Oh, my. My sister Chandra. And my sister Calla. And my late father. My late mother were there.

ROWELL: And how did they. I mean, I'm sure they were happy. How did they react when you once you were home?

ULBRICH: Big hugs and tears. Yeah. I mean, a lot of celebrating. Um. The most rememberable time, the night that we went celebrating, we went down to a like R&R bar and then big groups of people down there, a lot of my friends, coworkers. Having a good time celebrating. And the most rememberable night because we broke into the Menasha swimming pool.

ROWELL: Let's talk about that.

ULBRICH: [Laugh] We still talk about that to this day.

ROWELL: Let's talk about it. Well, so what happened was that people that you were, you were deployed with who came? Or is it just home friends?

ULBRICH: No, it's just home friends and coworkers.

ROWELL: Celebrating you coming home.

ULBRICH: [Clears throat] Yes. And my friend Barb, you know, who's in, because she got to come home a couple of months before we did. We were supposed to come home with hers, but that's when our captain of our unit volunteered us to clean up Highway to Hell.

ROWELL: Right.

ULBRICH: So we were a couple of months late coming home. But, you know, we got pretty drunk. And my friend Karen, my -- she was, you know, we were friends from kindergarten on up. But she-she had her dad's car, [laugh] so she was driving because she knew, you know, I was going to be drinking. So she said she'd drive. And so after we had our skchim full at the bar and bar closing, we decided to go swimming at the Menasha pool. So we all were climbing over the fence and 02:24:00swimming. And all of the sudden there was a cop car that came. You know, my friend Barb's coming down the slide. You could hear her going, eeeeeeeeeeeee, and stop. [Laugh] And I'm in the water. My friends are in the water. We had to quick go down. He had a -- he had a floodlight. He knew something was in the pool. But, you know, he was floodlighting us and he couldn't find us. And after he left, you know, we did a little bit more swimming, then got out. Well, he came back and at that time, Jefferson Park only had this little pavilion, it's not as big as the big one is now. Um, and so he comes back and he's floodlighting us again. We're going back and forth in this little pavilion. We're banging into each other, falling all over the place, just laughing [laugh] and laughing. And he finally leaves again. And then we're, like, running all to our cars and we're Manderfield Bakery is -- that used to be an old gas station. 02:25:00I told Karen, pull in the gas station -- now pretend you're filling up because you can see them coming. He pulls in after us and he started questioning Karen. He's like, have you been drinking tonight? And Karen's like, oh, no, no, officer. [Laugh] And I opened the door. I'm sitting in the back seat just all over her feet. [Laugh] I got sick and we're dripping wet. He's like, have you been swimming tonight? And Karen's like, well, yeah, we went to the lake. [Laughs]

ROWELL: A lake that smells like chlorine.

ULBRICH: Yeah, lake that smells clean, huh? Um, yeah. So we -- the cop let us go. She tells them that I just got back from Saudi, so he's like, well, get her home. You know, we got over by the hospital. At the stop light. I wasn't feeling good again and had the door open, and Neenah cop stops us. [Laugh] And Karen 02:26:00proceeds to tell her that, you know, I just got home from Saudi [laugh] and she's like, we'll get her home now. So Karen finally got me home. And the next morning, I guess her dad gets into the car, he was a supervisor for [Bontas??], and he he's like, gets home and he starts yelling at Karen. You know, I had a wet ass all day [laugh] from-from my car. And the puke that was in the back of the car. [Laugh] He goes, get out there now and clean up that. Yeah, it was much funnier as you have all of us telling the story because it was hilarious moment of celebration. But that was the one that really stands out because we had so much fun busting into the pool and going swimming.

ROWELL: Did you do a lot of celebrating when you got home?

ULBRICH: Yeah, there was a lot of drinking.

ROWELL: Um, and did you -- you mentioned that the cop, you know, both-both cops, 02:27:00both police officers were-were all more forgiving because I mentioned that you're a vet and you just come home from deployment. How long did that kind of fly for? [Laugh]

ULBRICH: Oh it was only that night.

ROWELL: That time, okay.

ULBRICH: I didn't get drunk, like, constantly those. But that was one night I let loose.

ROWELL: Um, okay. And then. And so how did it feel to be home after your deployment?

ULBRICH: It felt good. It was -- it was different trying to get back into the home life. I mean, you know, I noticed some things that had changed in me, you know. I didn't know what PTSD was, but I know I had some problems, you know, like when the tornado sirens would go off. I remember because my bed was up so 02:28:00high, the first time I heard the tornado sirens go off, I flipped out of bed, hit the ground. It was quite, [laugh] quite a fall [laugh] because I remember I hit the ground and I just lost my breath because I was such a height falling out of my bed. And then I'm just, like, stunned. Like, okay, I just sat there going, okay, what's going on? You know, just waiting. But.

ROWELL: Did it remind you of the-the-the like the chemical alarms or what did it remind you of?

ULBRICH: The air raid.

ROWELL: The air raid. Oh, that too.

ULBRICH: The air raids, or sirens, or whatever you want to call them, the oncoming Scuds.

ROWELL: Okay. Yeah. You, um. And so that continued to bother you?

ULBRICH: Oh, yes. Yes. Loud noises. Um, crowds of people. I noticed I was having difficulties with anxiety. Stuff I never had before. So, it was kind of 02:29:00different trying to get through those experiences.

ROWELL: How did that affect you and your daily life?

ULBRICH: Oh. A lot of -- a lot of anxiety. A lot of trying to not be around stuff that would trigger it. You know, not being very social all the time. Um, not going to big events with large amounts of people. I remember I went to a Bon Jovi concert. And they had fireworks there. It was not good. I mean, I was just jerking left and right. I mean, just, you know, it was startling. You know, like when people get startled, you know, every firework that went off, I'm like twitching all over the place like that? You know, that was one of the times I 02:30:00really noticed how much that kind of stuff affected me.

ROWELL: And did you and you knew at the time that that would setting you off because it reminded you of-of things you experienced during the--

ULBRICH: Oh, yeah.

ROWELL: You could place it yourself?

ULBRICH: I never had issues like that before.

ROWELL: Right. And did that affect your relationship?

ULBRICH: You know, maybe they did. Probably, and I just didn't realize it. You know, I didn't realize all that stuff. That's a time when now that I can look back and see, it probably did.

ROWELL: But at the time you were just experiencing it.

ULBRICH: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a doctor. You know I didn't get help with the stuff until many years later. And then, you know, that's kind of when I learned, 02:31:00yeah, those are those are some of the side effects of PTSD. Of, you know, the trauma. You know, the sexual attacks. And yeah, I had no clue. You know, I'm just going on with life trying to -- and I know at that time, too, I drank a lot trying to try to medicate.

ROWELL: And how long did that go on for? For you?

ULBRICH: Um, I think at 27 was my turning point where I had to -- and the relationship I was in, you know, it was either I keep on drinking, I'm going to be alone. Or I quit drinking because it was getting so bad.

ROWELL: And what age were you when you returned?

ULBRICH: 22, I believe.

ROWELL: So, about five years in there?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

Okay. Um, and how did that transition go for you when you were 27?

ULBRICH: It was difficult because, you know, a lot of my friends, you know, they were still pretty, you know, still large, you know, at the time, were pretty good drinkers and. It's kind of like interesting because, you know, you weren't invited as much because, you know, you don't drink. But that's okay. I found other things to do.

ROWELL: And when you got home, you were still in the reserve? Yeah? The Army Reserves. And did you sign up again?

ULBRICH: Yes. One of the guys from 395th, he ended up being a -- what do -- recruiter? Yeah, he was a -- he turned to a recruiter, so he could get me to go 02:33:00into the 432nd Civil Affair unit out of Green Bay.

ROWELL: And why did you make that decision?

ULBRICH: Something different. I didn't know that they were a unit that gets activated for everything. If I would've known that I would've not joined.

ROWELL: You want to talk about that? What do you mean by that?

ULBRICH: Oh. Because I didn't have too much more time left. I mean, I had a you know, my-my time was, what, six years active? And two years non active was my -- my contract, or whatever. So I'm like, couple of years left. You know, I'm in my -- I think it was in my in that of two years. I didn't have -- you know, I didn't really worry about going at the time, you know, because I didn't know that they were so active. Um, but I didn't go to the meetings. I didn't do any 02:34:00of this stuff, you know, because I was just kind of coasting the last two years to, you know, unit my time was up.

ROWELL: Yeah, you said that you didn't - there weren't a lot -- you didn't have new duty stations really during that time? Um, and that you didn't they, you were not really as engaged, right?

ULBRICH: Right. No, no, I was not engaged with the 432nd. I didn't go to the trainings and then when they got activated for, I can never remember if it's Kosovo or Bosnia, I think it was Bosnia that they get activated for. Um, but it was like, right at the end of my two years of non-active.

ROWELL: And you weren't penalized for that -- not engaging?

ULBRICH: No, nope.

ROWELL: Was that because you were you had returned from deployment -- do you think -- or what do you think about that?

ULBRICH: No, because my-my contract terms were up. I got an honorable discharge because my time was up.

ROWELL: Right.

ULBRICH: It was done.

ROWELL: Um, but for not engaging. Oh, no.

ULBRICH: Yeah. No, because it was during your non-active times you don't really have to engage.

ROWELL: Okay. Um, how did it feel finally leaving the military?

ULBRICH: Um. Her weight lifted off, not knowing that I didn't have to go anymore. Not from those countries or wars. Um. And I knew I wasn't going to be able to go anywhere because, like, you know, I got sick over in Saudi and it kept getting worse. So I know I wasn't going to be in it for long anyway, because I really pretty much. Get rid of you out of the military when you're sick.

ROWELL: We talked about this last time, but, um, you were sick already when you came home. Yeah, it was already affecting you. Yeah.

ULBRICH: I was sick in-country already.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: You know, at the time, I didn't know, you know, dysentery. I thought it 02:36:00was just dysentery, but it was more. My breathing, I had breathing ailments. Um, I had rashes.

ROWELL: Yeah. You mentioned that someone else may, a couple of years later, had the same exact rashes that you did. Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah. I always figured it was because of the diesel that they hauled in. They would haul our shower water in the diesel trucks, and someone didn't clean it out very well one time and we're taking showers it was just like diesel water. Yeah, it was horrible.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: And you found out you later identified this instead as part of your Gulf War illness? Yeah. Is that correct?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I mean, I don't think it's really healthy to shower in diesel.

ROWELL: No, not that either. But, yeah, but it may have had a larger relationship with other- other illnesses you encountered later. Um, and did you, 02:37:00um, how did you adjust to life as a full time civilian? Was it much of an adjustment after the inactive or, um. Or was it pretty smooth?

ULBRICH: I don't know if it was real smooth.

ROWELL: Right.

ULBRICH: Um. It was -- it was a life changing adjustment because I couldn't do the things I used to be able to do. I mean, I was quite sick a lot. Um, you know, I had to give up, you know, a lot of my biking. I had to give up a lot of my sports. I had to give up, you know, running because I'd always have to be near a bathroom. You know, I couldn't go on long things not knowing if I could make it to a bathroom in time.

ROWELL: And did that affect your career, too?

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm. Yes. Um. I ended up having to find a job that had good health insurance. In a job that wasn't the most pleasurable job. But you have to do what you have to do to get health insurance because I was so sick all the time.

ROWELL: Yeah. And so what did you do for work?

ULBRICH: Um, I worked in a paper mill, from before I went over to Saudi and then I worked after I came home for a bit and then I got a job with RPS, well UPS. Um, then UPS, you know, called me back to work full time. But I went with RPS 02:39:00because I thought being your own boss was the thing to do. But I should have went UPS. But I only worked for them for-for a short time because my back ended up getting blown out too horribly. And then I went to work in corrections for the remainder of my working years. For health insurance.

ROWELL: Did they have any analogs to your service at all? Was that -- was there any relationship to that? Um. That experience of working in corrections at all. Did you encounter other vets in that in that field?

ULBRICH: A lot of, a lot of military vets that work in corrections.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: I don't know, maybe it's because of work in service or what you had to deal with. You know, if they were -- you know -- guards for -- you know, when we had the Iraqi people that were locked up. I don't know, you know, working with 02:40:00that kind of stuff. I'm sure.

ROWELL: Did you have a different relationship with those coworkers versus the others?

ULBRICH: Um, we have a lot more in common, you know, cause we dealt with the same things.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Including-including ailments kind of at that time, right?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. Experiences and others. So, uh. Did you join any veterans' organizations after you came back?

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: No. Can you talk about why?

ULBRICH: I was angry for many, many years for being sick because it robbed me of a lot of life. A lot of things I enjoyed in life. So, I was quite angry.

ROWELL: When did you put together for yourself that it was service connected?

ULBRICH: Right away.

ROWELL: There wasn't any period of time where you-you kind of doubted it? It was clear for you.

ULBRICH: Because I was -- I was healthy when we went over. I didn't have any problems. I never had any breathing ailments. I never had any [polish??] Or never had rashes. Um. I was healthy. I had no sickness when I went over. And then when I was there. You know, after the war, it started.

ROWELL: And um, can you also talk a bit about-about connecting with those veterans' organizations later in life, you know, like the American Legion Post. And talk a bit about why that was that became important to you.

ULBRICH: Um. When I heard about this post being an all-female unit, I felt safe. 02:42:00Being involved in something with just being all females.

ROWELL: Did it feel unsafe to engage otherwise based on your experiences?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah. I mean, it takes me a while to be around men because of some-- a lot of the stuff that happened in my younger years, including military and nonmilitary. I didn't trust. I didn't want to put myself, you know, in any other situations. So.

ROWELL: Um, and did you seek treatment for that -- for -- as a result of some of that trauma that you did experience?

ULBRICH: Yeah, later.

ROWELL: Okay. What has interacting with-with your post and with the women in your post -- how has that affected you since you -- since that time, you know? What's that been like for you? What impact has it had on you?

ULBRICH: Um, making new friends, you know, and some of the other women and-and I know some of the other women that I had met in the post have gone through similar things. We haven't discussed in detail, but I know they had made comments about same, kind of, same things that I had gone through. And just being able to like kind of give back. You know, like I said, I went to a funeral with one of our members that had just passed away. And what an honor it was just 02:44:00to be able to send her off with the, you know, it's a little, just the history of what these women hold. You know, I just -- and being able to get out there and community again. I mean, granted, my knees has set me back, so I couldn't do as much as I would like to help the women in the unit when they were trying to raise money.

ROWELL: Um. Um. Do you feel comfortable talking about, um, pursuit of that health care that you -- that kind of mental health care aspect? It you talked about physically, um, physical kind of health treatments and some of the illness that you experienced directly, you know, physically related. But would you be okay talking about mental health?

ULBRICH: Um. Yeah, I started -- when I started seeing the VA for mental health, 02:45:00I don't remember how many years ago. It was prior to my cancer, well prior to my cancer, but I just couldn't connect to any of their social workers. I guess I just didn't, I don't know, I didn't feel it. And then I started actually seeing this doctor, Dr. Hankey, during this pain management after my cancer, um, from my fibro and stuff. And she wasn't the first one, there was a guy that started, and I wasn't really connecting to him, and he moved on. And then Dr. Hankey took his spot and, uh, she had worked in the VA before and has worked through the PTSD. And she helped me through working through my PTSD and helped me learn my 02:46:00triggers and helped me kind of work through a lot of the stuff. Do you need a break? [Laugh]

ROWELL: Did you? No, no, not at all. I'm just thinking. Did you-- did you receive any encouragement, people in your life to pursue that treatment, or was it, uh, um, kind of a self-directed process for you?

ULBRICH: I think it was a self-directed process because I could see my-my anxieties and triggers that were going on getting worse. And I know -- I knew it just wasn't right. And I figured, I need to start dealing with some of the stuff. Because I didn't want to sit there and take it out on other people, you 02:47:00know, or my animals, you know, are getting cranky or, you know, just other people I don't know, because some of the triggers are getting bad or I was in large amounts of crowds and. Yeah. It's like they've seen a side of me I just didn't like.

ROWELL: And that's been helpful for you?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: That time? How long has it been?

ULBRICH: Oh, 2013.

ROWELL: Okay. Um, quite a while.

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: Is that something you are still working on, or?

ULBRICH: Constantly.

ROWELL: Okay. And so the VA -- so to be clear, you are also pursuing that through the VA?

ULBRICH: Yes.

ROWELL: Yeah. Is that-- was that-- did that process feel a bit different from when you're pursuing other types of health care for the VA?

ULBRICH: Um. Try and pursue it through the VA has always been a nonstop 02:48:00challenge. And frustrating. And kind of gut wrenching trying to get through. So it's-it's actually been working more in the civilian part that has really kind of helped, you know, because it seemed like at the time the VA doctors, you know, they're trying to not help you and try to work against you, especially the comp doctors. Um, you know, like I said, my Dr. [Gowing??], who is my favorite doctor, you know, he's worked with. Multiple Gulf War vets, you know, and said you guys are all sick with the same stuff. It's like you guys were exposed to 02:49:00something, you know, and then you get the comp doctors basically saying, no, no, you were sick as a kid or you were sick, as you know, trying to minimize everything and put it off so that, you know, no, you're not sick.

ROWELL: Right. Um, is there anything given your difficult experience seeking care, is there anything you would say if you could to other vets who are considering looking, looking into getting care or who are trying? Um, what would you maybe say to them?

ULBRICH: Get a lawyer.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Because you'll never make it in on your own. I mean, I use the DAV one of the fights, But. Still, they're kind of limited. But I would say get a lawyer who fights for veterans.

ROWELL: DAV, can you-- can you say what that is?

ULBRICH: Disabled vets.

ROWELL: Okay. So they helped you in one case?

ULBRICH: Yes, they helped in one case. But like I've been using Tabak and they've helped quite a bit, you know, with my progress, especially after the comp doctor lied on my medical file to.

ROWELL: Tabak? Is that the name of a firm? Or is that? Okay, can you spell that?

ULBRICH: Uh, T-A-B-A-K.

ROWELL: Um, is there anything else that you'd like to talk about? About why you chose to stay in Wisconsin and what your family life has been like since you returned for your deployment?

ULBRICH: I stayed in Wisconsin to be near my family. You know, I always grew up where, you know, family's the number one thing, your number one support system and stuff. And then, then I became the caretaker for my father in 2005 and took 02:51:00care of him for many years until 2018. And then, you know, my mom became ill in 2016. So, I ended up having to take care of, you know, help take care of her too. Until both of them passed. One in '18. One in '19. And I just stay here, you know, because of my one sister still here, Calla. But my other sister moved to North Carolina. I can't do heat. I can do dry heat, but I can't do a humid head. And I'd love to move down south where it's a little bit warmer because it -- these cold weathers is really wreaks havoc on my fibro. I have a hard time during the weather changes.

ULBRICH: Fibromyalgia?

ULBRICH: Oh, yes. Talk about painful.

ROWELL: Yeah. And what did your family -- how did your family react when they saw you going through some of the -- those PTSD symptoms or your physical symptoms? How did they interact with you at that time?

ULBRICH: My one sister, Chandi, who is a nurse. She's understanding. So she lived with me for many years and saw how sick I was. You know, my-my dad, he wasn't capable of understanding too much of that stuff. Um, my mom, she wasn't real understanding of it at all. I mean, she kind of understood when I first get home, you know, because I said, I was-- I get sick over in-country already. When 02:53:00I get home, I get really, really sick. And she had to help me to the doctor because I couldn't walk. You know, when I got to the clinic, you know, the doctors there, they had kind of, oh, another, you know, another faker or another whatever, you know, something stupid. I don't think they kind of don't take it serious. But when you do the exam, then I turn completely white and almost passed out. [Laugh] He took it serious. He's like, you know, you can you saw the change in him, like, oh, crap. Okay, there's something going on -- really going on here. And he -- mom saw how sick I was and how concerned the doctor was. Basically, I had to go into the hospital for emergency surgery because I was septic. Yeah.

ROWELL: And that started when you were you were deployed, didn't it?

ULBRICH: I was, yeah. I was already infection when I was over there and it just 02:54:00kind of got worse as I got home because I was too afraid to go to the doctor.

ROWELL: Why are you afraid to go to the doctor?

ULBRICH: Just because of where the sickness was located, you know, in the back end of the GI and stuff and--

ROWELL: Right.

ULBRICH: And I didn't want to have to take off my clothes at that time after the assaults and especially to a male doctor, I was not comfortable with.

ROWELL: Did they -- were they able to do anything to make you feel more comfortable. Did they understand any of that trauma?

ULBRICH: No, they didn't understand.

ROWELL: Oh. Sorry.

ULBRICH: Well, it's not like I said, "Hey!" [Laugh]

ROWELL: But you probably showed some symptoms were uncomfortable.

ULBRICH: Oh, yeah.

ROWELL: Um, where did you find support for yourself as time went on? And, you know, as maybe your family was less understanding of what was happening with you? And what you were going through. Where did you find support for yourself?

ULBRICH: A lot of times, like-like I said, I drank heavily for a long time til 27. Um. But Terri, who I live with, very supportive. That's been my kind of rock. Sounding post and talking -- you know, talking post. He knows all my illnesses. And--

ROWELL: Understands you?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Yeah. That was my main support.

ROWELL: You're able to build that understanding. Is Terri of us as well or civilian?

ULBRICH: Civilian.

ROWELL: I thought so, Well. Um, and so, um, I think we'll take a pause for the recording, um, just for the length, and then we'll come right back. Okay. All right. This and segment three of the interview on September 20th, 2022, with 02:56:00Cory Ulbrich.

ULBRICH: [Whispers] Yay!

[End of segment three] [Beginning of segment four]

ROWELL: All right. This begins segment four of The Interview with Cory Ulbrich on September 20th, 2022. Okay. So, Cory, um, looking back now at your service, um, how do you regard that period in your life? Like what? What do you associate with that period of time?

ULBRICH: Sickness, anger, a lot of damage.

ROWELL: How do you feel now about your choice to join the Reserve?

ULBRICH: I really, you know, at the time, before I joined the military, I was all set to go off to UW La Crosse. I had my dormitory and my roommate from high 02:57:00school was going to be my, you know, stay with me there. I wish I would have gone to college.

ROWELL: Um, and did you pursue education when you came home, other education?

ULBRICH: Yeah, I tried. Um, it was very difficult to work full time and go to school part time. Um, especially when you got a job where you, you're not guaranteed to only work 8 hours, or you can get ordered to work double shifts. So it was, it's kind of a struggle.

ROWELL: And so what is your, your own current perspective on the military as a whole and military service?

ULBRICH: It was definitely a big learning curve. I did meet some fantastic 02:58:00people. I did get to do some experiences I'd never be able to do otherwise. I mean, I-I drove all sorts of heavy equipment when I was in the military. I mean, how many women do you think get to, you know, haul semis or drive a huge you know, I can't remember the number they call for these huge forklifts, land scrapers, dozers, HEMTTs, I am trying to think of what else big equipments I got to play on. But I got to plan some really, you know, interest-- 5-tons, DUECEs. I mean, I get to play on a lot of different equipment that basically you probably average will not work at that time get to play on and we got to learn 02:59:00and play on them and had some fun creating things with them and doing things with them and.

ROWELL: Given how difficult some of your experiences with the military have been during service and after, can you kind of talk about the relationship between that, those emotions and your-your involvement with vets now and why and how those interact?

ULBRICH: Um. Okay, I'm getting lost here.

ROWELL: That's okay, no worries.

ULBRICH: I'm trying to comprehend and it's not comprehending too well.

ROWELL: So it's kind of a confusing question, but, so you've got a lot of difficult feelings about the military, but you-you interact with other vets all the time, and that seems pretty important to you to do with the post and with friends of yours. A lot of your friends. Uh, and so can you kind of talk about where those two things meet? Where you have this frustration and but also a lot 03:00:00of care with the individuals. You know?

ULBRICH: I care for other, you know, like women vets that have gone through the scenario, you know, that I have gone through. You know, we have commonality with that and we know what the damage has done from it. Um, I don't let a lot of people in. I mean, even with some of the women I've served with, you know, they've stayed in, you know, like through basic and AIT you know, I still got a couple of friends that I still stay in contact to this day with. I didn't even tell them all the, you know, stuff that was endured. Um. And I didn't even tell like my good friend Barb, I've known forever that it was in the military with 03:01:00me, I haven't even gone into detail with her, you know, with the assaults that went on. I can't believe I even talk about this now. But, you know, it's just people need to know. The hardships the women have gone through in the military from the past all the way up to the present. Then they had to hide and keep it in the closet. They couldn't deal with it, you know, because of the disgrace or dishonor or the dirtiness or, you know, what you go through, how you just feel -- you're so unworthy and just, you know, broken. You know, and that affects, you know, to me, I don't know how it doesn't affect, you know, when you're in your relationships, you know. Was because for a long time, you know, it affected 03:02:00me and my relationships. You know, I didn't want to admit it, but, you know, and it has, you know, took me many, many, many years. You know, to work through it to say, okay, you know, I'm not a piece of crap and I'm okay, you know. Like you said, it's not your fault. So I don't know. I just mean, like I said, that's why I joined this unit because. I just feel safer among women than I do among men. Even know I served with men. I just, I kept my distance as much as I could.

ROWELL: Um, when we were in between segments, we also talked about this culture 03:03:00that existed, uh, when you were deployed with your ordinance unit, um, and how some of the women, um, that you still remain in contact with today, um, experienced some things, and so do you. Uh, would you be okay talking about that?

ULBRICH: Oh, yeah. Um. Our ordnance unit -- we-we loaded trucks from all sorts of different audiences for the front lines. And a lot of the drivers weren't all our transportation, a lot of them were still like the Saudi driven trucks. And I don't know if they're Saudis or I can't remember if they were like, what do they call those people from Sri Lankans? I don't know if they're Sri Lankans, but some of them were Saudis that were they drove these semis. Um, most of our 03:04:00ordinances to the front lines, but in their culture, they think they can do whatever they want to women, you know, because they're just there for either a sexual object or for, for having kids. You know, it was just. That was their way of -- that was their way of showing dominance or that's just their culture. They didn't treat women very well. And not only their women, our women because not only was I sexually assaulted through their hands, but you know, I had other women in my unit, you know, that were sexually assaulted or attempted assault. You know [XXXXXXXXX] I remember her telling me she got attacked. And you know how she punched the guy right in the face and he got away. You know, so she didn't she saved herself. But there's other girls that ended up locking 03:05:00themselves in cars. You know, we're trying to load these trucks and they're being, you know, sexually assaulted. I mean, I don't know how far degree, but I just remember them saying that they had to lock themselves in the car because these guys. And then you had, you know, even our unit commander, Captain [XXXXXXXXXX], you know, there's always rumors, you know, that he made his way around the women are doing unit, too. I mean, I don't -- with him, I don't think it was an assault, I think it was more--

ROWELL: It was consensual.

ULBRICH: Yeah, more consent. More consensual in theory. You know, and I don't think it was just to our unit. I think he -- I mean, he might have, you know, don't quote me on it, so I don't want to sit here and say, but I just know he made his rounds.

ROWELL: And so how did that -- you mentioned that there was kind of an indifference that the buddy system was kind of the only solution offered when women in your unit were felt unsafe.

ULBRICH: Yeah, well, we were always told-told to have a buddy system. You-you couldn't be by yourself.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Because they knew of the culture, you know, and-and like, with my one assault when we were convoying from Khobar Towers to KKMC, we had stopped for a bathroom break, um, in this little podunk store strip in the middle of the desert. It was -- it was pretty poor place.

ROWELL: We discussed that last time.

ULBRICH: Yeah. And that's where my assault ended up happening, because I was the last one to go to the bathroom. And the person that was supposed to stay here decided to run off to the bus.

ROWELL: And so -- and they -- do you feel that the -- that those with authority 03:07:00knew that the buddy system was not adequately protecting you or other women in your unit?

ULBRICH: No, they probably didn't know.

ROWELL: They didn't know?

ULBRICH: Because after my assault, you know, when I got on the bus, you know, I-I didn't come right out and tell our NCOs what happened, but I did make a comment to the guy who took off.

ROWELL: Yeah. Do you know if any of your friends who experienced this harassment in the process of doing their job at the ammo dump, for example, do you know if they ever reported it to, uh, to anybody, NCOs or anything?

ULBRICH: I know [XXXXXXXX] didn't. I didn't.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: I can't speak for the other couple of girls.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: And I don't know how many, but it sounds like it happened to many of us, but I don't know exactly how many.

ROWELL: Right. And you did say that, I think, at one time that the kind of old boys club, uh, atmosphere of the unit remained when you deployed. Do you -- do you feel there's any relationship between those things of you not having any support and that environment? Do you draw any, any connection between those two things at all for you?

ULBRICH: No, I mean, the good old boy system, you know.

ROWELL: It was more about like kind of Captain [XXXXXXXX] conduct

ULBRICH: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWELL: There's more towards that and less about not noticing.

ULBRICH: Right.

ROWELL: Okay. Yeah

It was not, I mean a lot of this good old boy system was consensual. But you know, what happens here stays here.

ROWELL: Right. And disregarding rank too, in some of those circumstances, maybe? Just to understand.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Um, and is there anything else about those kind of topics that you recall that you want to cover from your deployment?

ULBRICH: I'm just drawing a blank right now.

ROWELL: Yeah, we can move on to the next one.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, so you mentioned the convoy. Just previously, you mentioned the convoy between Khobar and KKMC, King Khalid Military City. And again, during the break, you mentioned there was an assault on the convoy. Can you say more about that?

ULBRICH: Well, that's one that you said I had talked about before.

ROWELL: Oh, okay, I didn't -- I didn't know if it was, sorry. I didn't know if it was an assault like a there was -- that your convoy was attacked as a whole.

ULBRICH: Oh, no. Oh, no.

ROWELL: Okay, all right.

ULBRICH: That was just a Saudi guy who assaulted me.

ROWELL: I'm sorry. There's a different-different circumstances. Same word for it. Okay. Good to know. Thank you for clarifying. Okay. [Ulbrich laughs] And 03:10:00then -- so we also discussed earlier you-you described a feeling of numbness for yourself that you developed over the course of your deployment. Um, can you talk about how that influenced you, your interactions with other people while you were deployed? Um, even officers you mentioned one interaction.

ULBRICH: Yeah. When I was in that numbness, it kind of intensified me not really caring what happened. Um, when we were at the stores at the KKMC that we went to, I was wearing my uniform, but I had like, extra pins on my hat that weren't military issued, you know, like Garfield and some other ones, I'm not going to 03:11:00say what it was but--

ROWELL: it was on your hat there?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: You want to show me how you kind of had them?

ULBRICH: Well, I had one--

ROWELL: Were they all around there?

ULBRICH: One here. And you can see some of the rust marks from one of the pins were.

ROWELL: Do you want to hold it up actually, so you can kind of see those rust marks? So, it's right on the front.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Right here?

ULBRICH: Yeah. I just pull off my Garfield. It was on there for like 30 plus years. And then the other pin was like, right there.

ROWELL: Uh huh. And do you want to say what that one said?

ULBRICH: I was -- I think it was like, you're a shit head, I'm okay. [Laughs]

ROWELL: So you, so this officer is not a fan?

ULBRICH: No. He was, he was not happy at all. And then I had my fanny pack that was -- I had buckled around carrying all my stuff. Um, and he proceeded to chew me out saying I'm in violation with our dress code. And they just sat there, and 03:12:00when I assumed he was done, I just walked away, and he wasn't done. And he called me back and started chewing me out some more. And I'm like, are you done? And I walked. [Laugh]

ROWELL: Did you have any other interactions like that? Where you're just like, I could not care. You could not make me care.

ULBRICH: Um, yeah, I mean.

ROWELL: It was kind of pervasive.

ULBRICH: Because it's not just with people, you know, like when-when we were getting bombed at constantly when the war was going on. I mean, we got Scudded. I learned to sleep with my MOPP Gear on because we got Scudded so much. I guess I couldn't believe, like. If we were gotten bombed. But, you know, I wasn't I wasn't scared anymore. It's like, I don't care if I get, you know, if I get 03:13:00bombed and killed, you know, it was that numb. It's kind of kind of scary if you get to that place where you just didn't care.

ROWELL: How long did it take for that to change, for you to kind of come back to a more emotionally present state?

ULBRICH: Years. I look back, it's like quite a few years. It didn't help. Because I know when I worked RPS and stuff, I had a manager there that was kind of reminded me of the officer that was chewing me out over in Saudi, I did the same thing to him. And that was in the late nineties. You know, I felt like, are you done? Walked away. And I know I didn't just walk away. I said a choice words and then walked away. Um, and that's just not like me. I was never 03:14:00confrontational. I was never. Um, you know, I usually took it, but I would say maybe after I started going to Dr. Hankey. I mean, working in corrections certainly didn't help either.

ROWELL: Did that have any interactions with some of your difficult memories when you were when you're deployed?

ULBRICH: Yeah, there were -- there were triggers. I mean, you know, the triggers with PTSD, it was. And, I mean, it's really. They test what triggers you.

ROWELL: Hmm. Would you be okay talking more about that?

ULBRICH: They-they're like little kids sometimes.

ROWELL: The people who are incarcerated?

ULBRICH: Yeah. So they kind of like they try and find out what pushes your button.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: And so, you know, they would do that quite a bit. And, you know, my temper would-would come out. I'd try not to, you know. But it did a few occasions where the guy was just kept pushing and poking. It wasn't my grander moments being in corrections, but, you know, I kind of lost my crap on him and had him locked up. [Laughs] But yeah.

ROWELL: Were your coworkers understanding of that? Did they know what was happening?

ULBRICH: No, no, I, I, I didn't talk about the war much when I worked with people. Um, it was kind of funny, though, when I -- when I transferred over to this one correctional place around here, um, I had a boyfriend in high school. 03:16:00He lived across the street from me, Eric, and I lost -- then we broke up my sophomore year -- I lost track of him for many, many years. I found out -- I knew he had joined the Navy, and, uh, he was over in Saudi. He was over in Bahrain on one of the ships I probably toured. And then when I transferred to this institution, all of the sudden, I was training in [SUG??] that night I could hear this voice. I'm like, oh my gosh, that sounds like Eric. Yeah, and sure enough, it was him, you know? And we opened up. I opened up and he opened up because, you know, I didn't know he was over there. So we were talking about Saudi all over the place, and it was just like I could open up with him, you know, cause he went through it. But otherwise, you know, I really didn't talk.

ROWELL: What was it that brought you to seeking out, you know, counseling and that you felt you needed to talk?

ULBRICH: Um. Because of triggers we're getting more enhanced. My behavior was getting more angry and lashing out, which I didn't like. Especially, you know, when I -- when I would go to places with a whole bunch of people and, oh my gosh, you know, I just, like, got to go. Got to go now. No, all, you know, just yelling. I'm like, get out of here now. You know, I just had to stop and just get the heck out of there because I just couldn't take any more of this stimulus. Yeah, it was just heightening to the point where, you know, I'm 03:18:00starting to become a hermit because I can't deal, you know, after that, Like, I don't even want to put myself in those situations, you know?

So, I stopped doing things, you know, being around people and, you know, just kind of going the opposite way. And that wasn't good. So, I'm like, yeah, I guess I got to start dealing with this stuff. It's been too many years and it's just festering out in other ways and I just can't I can't do it anymore. And it was affecting my relationships with, you know, who I was with was affecting my relationships, even with my family. Um. Yeah, I'm glad to do it with it. For one, started dealing with it.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um. Uh, do you maybe have anything -- any advice for vets who are seeking out, uh, not necessarily just care at the VA, because we've discussed 03:19:00that, but mental health care. That piece?

ULBRICH: Yeah. I would definitely seek out, you know, someone who was qualified to work PT-- PTSD program. Um, you know, I was lucky enough to be with Dr. Hankey, who has worked with the PTSD program. Um, so she knew what to do, you know, for me to work through the assaults, through the war, the trauma from, excuse me, from, you know, the attacks the Scud attacks, the. You know, all sorts of things that you did in the bodies, the, you know, all things that you shouldn't be exposed to, you know, that left damaging parts of life. But yeah, I mean, you just you really need to find a qualified person that can where there's 03:20:00actually PTSD programs that you can work it through and then you kind of learn, you know, your triggers and try to work through them, through techniques that, you know, that they show you through these. That helps. I mean, I definitely saw a lot of stuff that I didn't know was part of the problem of PTSD. I mean, like, oh, my gosh, you know, I can't believe I went that long without help.

ROWELL: Took a long time to put it together?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: I just thought it was me being weird. [Laugh]

ROWELL: Right. That why I ask you if you -- if you have any thoughts to share about it. Yeah. Um, so, uh, with that, um, is there anything else that you, um, you may have thought of that you would like to discuss in our interview today 03:21:00about your service, about your veteran experience, anything?

ULBRICH: Um. It was, you know, the camaraderie. I mean, I have some really, you know, met some really great people that I enjoyed. You know, that that really, you know, changed my life through- through things and friendships that I can take away from a lot of the stuff. I mean, yeah, there was a lot of not so good stuff, you know, the health effects, the-the assaults, you know, I wish that never happened. But all in all it was an experience, you know, it was a -- it was a culture shock experience of how other countries behave and treat their people.

Um. It makes me appreciate more what we have here in the States. You know how women, you know, they've gotten better that were there and they're still. Oh, my gosh. But I don't know, maybe it's changed from the nineties to now, how they behave over there. But it was just a huge culture barrier and shock. The extremes in our lives and stuff and how we live. But -- the experience, you know, I would say, it was very unique. I guess I wouldn't give it up for the world of what I did see, even though it was not the best, but it was still, you know, life transformation type experience. Yeah. It was okay.

ROWELL: Well, thank you very much for sharing your experiences with me today and also in August. Thank you so much for your time, Cory.

ULBRICH: Thank you.

ROWELL: This concludes the interview with Cory Ulbrich, begun on August 8th and concluded on September 20th, 2022.

[End of segment four] [Beginning of segment five]

ULBRICH: And the Scuds that we took.

ROWELL: Okay, so these are captured Scuds? So, uh, probably, possibly a captured Iraqi Scuds here. Or seized, or what have you, I'm not sure what -- how we want to phrase it. Um. Okay. Oh, wow. Okay, so these are -- all these are all Highway to Death, Highway to Hell.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: These all are -- okay -- I'm going to go through them quickly. Similar, 03:24:00but you can kind of guess. But this -- this -- these cars -- this is all the highway. Crumbled, burnt vehicles. This is out from the side of a moving -- of a vehicle -- from the inside of the vehicle. This is a bunker. Is this a pack of cigarettes? Do you know where this is?

ULBRICH: That was in Kuwait. The buildings that were shot up.

ROWELL: All right. Yeah. So, yes, this shot of a building is what. This is an overpass on the highway here. More vehicles, destroyed vehicles. More destroyed vehicles. This is a cleanup equipment? What is that?

ULBRICH: That's like a donut--do--.

ROWELL: Dozer? That? Is that. Do you believe it's American equipment?

ULBRICH: Oh, that. I don't know. I don't know if that's like, actually, like for, uh--

ROWELL: What was this barbed wire?

ULBRICH: Yeah, I don't know what that one is. I don't know if that is ours or not, for like bomb removal and stuff.

ROWELL: Yeah. What is all this barbed wire?

ULBRICH: That is where a lot of Iraqis put like land mines and stuff.

ROWELL: Okay, this is mined area. Barbed wire on top of it. Is that correct? Okay. And this is the same from another angle. These are the same.

ULBRICH: Well, this is Bradley.

ROWELL: Oh, wow. Okay.

ULBRICH: Brad Brick, Highway to Hell.

ROWELL: What does it say? Green -- Green Bay, Wisconsin. Is a Green Bay. Wisconsin is spray painted on the side of this. So, this is on the highway.

ULBRICH: Cleaning up. Do you see any type of protective suit?

ROWELL: Oh, not at all. Okay. So, do you know who this is?

ULBRICH: Yeah, that's Sergeant Brick. Brad Brick.

ROWELL: Brad Brick. How do -- do know how to you spell that?

ULBRICH: B-R-I-C-K.

ROWELL: Oh. Oh. Brad. Brick. Okay. This man's he is Brick, Sergeant Brick. Highway to Hell. Does that say, "I love Madison?" No, "I love my mom." Okay, so, Sergeant Brick, um, with Highway to Hell, Highway of Death, you know, wreckage and no, no protective equipment.

These are oil fires. More oil fires. Pretty distinctly. That's a good visual 03:27:00distinction. Black oil fires. Very black, very bright. Pinpointed. Oh, this is. Wow. This is more highway. Oh, yeah. So it says right here, "Highway to Hell." People call it the Highway of Death sometimes, but it says right here, spray painted "Highway to Hell." And that's what that is there.

Wow. That is a conflagration. Wow. And this is an oil fire? [Ulbrich nod yes] Oh, my gosh. Okay. These are two oil fires. One has a man right in the foreground right here. That's what that is. These are -- these are -- these are spent-spent ordinance right here or -- and also captured ordinance, I would say, 03:28:00or seized ordinances that was found on the Highway to Hell. All lined up.

Oh, this is Brian. Okay, Brad. This is really helpful because now we'll know what they are when they enter the collections. Um. Okay. Sorry. Let me try to retrieve this. Be gentle about it. Do you know those people are?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Tim--

ROWELL: Highway.

ULBRICH: They called him Frogger. But Tim Schultz. I'm surprised I remember that. With some Kuwaiti kids over there.

ROWELL: Oh, okay. Did you interact with a lot -- a lot of Kuwaiti civilians?

ULBRICH: Um, not -- not as much, no.

ROWELL: Was it near, like, [??], or do you remember where this was?

ULBRICH: In Kuwait.

ROWELL: Yeah, or in Kuwait, rather. Sorry, that's not Saudi Arabia. Um, Kuwaiti children.

ULBRICH: [Looks at photo] Kuwait. [Looks at different photo] Highway to Hell.

ROWELL: I'll take those and put them in the -- yeah -- wow, that's -- oh, wow. There's so many.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: And this was all in person's photos? Oh, Brad loves Carolyn along the highway to hell.

ULBRICH: Yeah. So you looked at all of this. Say we had to clean up all that stuff that was along there.

ROWELL: Wow. Okay.

ULBRICH: And this is all--

ROWELL: Who's that?

ULBRICH: Fravert.

ROWELL: Fravert? You want for me to show her?

ULBRICH: Yeah. I think you have shown her.

ROWELL: Okay, so we know. It's kind of hard to tell what people look like from different photos.

ULBRICH: So Tim Schultz, we were loading -- oh, yeah, we did load. We loaded up the ammunitions on the big, double-decker Hueys.

ROWELL: Oh, wow. Look at that. Okay. Yeah. His name is Tim Schultz. Yep. Loading things onto -- the onto the ammunition -- loading ammunition onto that -- you said the double-decker like -- it's a helicopter, right?

ULBRICH: Yeah. I can't remember what they're called.

ROWELL: I can't--

ULBRICH: I don't think they're Hueys.

ROWELL: Hueys are -- they're the -- they have that profile that they -- they became common during the Vietnam War.

ULBRICH: Yeah, because we had those--

ROWELL: They were specific.

ULBRICH: The Apaches and the Hueys were-were in the flight line for.

ROWELL: Right. And so this is where -- this is part of the cleanup after.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Um. Are you trying to state things really like specifically for the-- 03:31:00for the camera? I hope it's copying. Really I do hope that it is capturing everything.

ULBRICH: Like Schultz.

ROWELL: Oh, there he is again. Do you want me to put that with this one? Okay.

ULBRICH: There's Captain [XXXXXXX].

ROWELL: Oh, yeah.

ULBRICH: Shaking hands with--

ROWELL: Shaking hands with?

ULBRICH: Some other NCOs.

ROWELL: Oh, his back is turned?

ULBRICH: Uh, he's the one there.

ROWELL: Oh, that's him. Okay. He's the one facing the camera is Captain [XXXXXX]. Right here, shaking hands with someone.

ULBRICH: And this is our R&R on the Queen--

ROWELL: Oh, wow. Are you in there?

ULBRICH: No, I'm not there. I wasn't part of their--

ROWELL: That crew?

ULBRICH: That crew.

ROWELL: Had a different, different friend group.

ULBRICH: Mm-hmm.

ROWELL: Okay. Wow, that's very blue drink. R&R on the cruise ship.

ULBRICH: Okay. All us girls at Khobar Towers sharing a room.

ROWELL: Oh, sure. This is you guys? Are you in here?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Oh, is that you right there?

ULBRICH: Real blonde one.

ROWELL: All right, so this is the Khobar Towers crew of women who all had to take the bath with the tub. This is Cory right here with the short blonde hair.

ULBRICH: This is like where all the NCOs get to stay.

ROWELL: Yeah. Oh, you can see his-his door.

ULBRICH: Yeah, the boat wasn't burning. And you can see all the Navy ships in 03:33:00the background and the pier, the port.

ROWELL: So, I'm trying to highlight this photo which has you in it here so I can document that that's what that is.

ULBRICH: The desert does get rain.

ROWELL: Yeah. I heard that.

ULBRICH: And then when we first got--

ROWELL: Heard, it rained a lot that year.

ULBRICH: And we first got to the Khobar Towers, we had to sleep in the parking garage overnight.

ROWELL: Okay. Khobar Towers parking garage.

ULBRICH: I don't know if you want to see these. They're pretty gruesome parts.

ROWELL: Yeah, we can probably guess what those are. This is more for identifying in the collection later, which we don't often have the chance to do. So.

ULBRICH: You know, these are all the body parts and.

ROWELL: Yeah, they're important, but they. Oh, wow. Yeah, that is a lot. Yes. Yeah, I think it speaks to something also that the photos exist. That they took the photos.

ULBRICH: These are all body cleanups and stuff.

ROWELL: Do you want to see? How do you know that, sweetheart? Um. Know these are pretty. Pretty bad. Very smart collection of ordnance. All right.

ULBRICH: You know.

ROWELL: Anytime the ordinances lined up, it seems that that's what that's what's going on. It's all from Highway, Highway to Hell. You have these guys. Yes, that's really good. You know, these are from the Highway to Hell, Highway of Death. Iraqi ordinance.

ULBRICH: All the Iraqis captured.

ROWELL: Oh, wow. Okay, so EPWs [Enemy Prisoners of War]. Captured Iraqis at the Highway of --Highway of - Highway to Hell, Highway of Death. Wow. Okay. Captured our Iraqi service members.

ULBRICH: Yeah. We just bombed the crap of out them.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm.

ULBRICH: All the stuff, their helicopters, both of their tanks.

ROWELL: Everything. Yeah. Oh, what is that?

ULBRICH: Some bomb pictures.

ROWELL: Are -- do you know what kinds of--

ULBRICH: No.

ROWELL: Kind of. Wow. Okay. Do you know? Wow. All right. So this is some. Don't have context for it, but it is a striking image and it is in part of this same collection. Wow. Those oil fires were -- was that? That's just a fire.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: That's an old burning well. Oh, wow. Yeah. So you don't have to look through all these, Cory, if you don't -- if you don't want to. It's okay.

ULBRICH: Some of our guy -- people got to go see Schwarzkopf, which I didn't.

ROWELL: Schwarzkopf?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Some of our guys are back where he was.

ROWELL: Okay. Okay. Oh, there he is again. Yeah. There are he is, there he is. Schwarzkopf.

ULBRICH: Oh wow, tanks just running into cars.

ROWELL: Oh wow, really? Oh, wow! Look at that.

ULBRICH: All the damage to buildings in Kuwait.

ROWELL: Oh, boy. Okay. Yeah.

ULBRICH: Airport.

ROWELL: Bombed-out buildings.

ULBRICH: This is, I think, the airport. If I remember correctly.

ROWELL: Oh, it does look like an airport.

ULBRICH: See like some of the stuff that wasn't burned and the bombs and didn't 03:38:00go off.

ROWELL: Oh, can I see that, actually?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: So Cory was saying this is an example of a bomb that didn't go off, that was the rubble and the wreckage. Oh yeah, more building wreckage. This looks like some sort of, like, customs counter. Maybe? For some sort of checkpoint in the airport. Wow, this is the all the light coming through the side. Same place.

ULBRICH: Sergeant Schultz.

ROWELL: Same, that Tim?

ULBRICH: No, different one. He was kinda--he wasn't like an original member member? But he joined our unit to go.

ROWELL: The truck that was on the highway.

ULBRICH: These are the ones you don't want to see.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Well, those aren't the bad ones. No.

ROWELL: We will, of course, they're an important part of the collection but we don't need to go through them now. It's clear what they are.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: That's it.

ROWELL: Okay. And then the last ones I'll show for the camera are these ones of the homecoming. This is the -- this is the ordnance company coming home. We've got. Here we go. Do you recognize any right here? How many people are in your company? A fair number.

ULBRICH: Oh, I really couldn't tell you anymore. I thought there was over three. That's Chucky. Chucky Rogers.

ROWELL: Oh, okay. Was he the one with the cigarette?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay, go on.

ULBRICH: Keith [Usinart??], he is in the maintenance.

ROWELL: Okay.

ULBRICH: Everyone's backs are showing.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: Mark. I can't think of--

ROWELL: Okay. The man with the cigarette who's got his hands up is Chucky Rogers. Charles Rogers. Worked maintenance in the.

ULBRICH: I see Sarah.

ROWELL: In the one behind here too, is -- do you recognize the last -- this one like that I put behind here. Do you see -- do you know anybody in that photo?

ULBRICH: Oh, yeah. Stacy Felton. She's the little girl there. Her father, he's passed now. He got really serious breathing problems.

ROWELL: Okay. Oh, yeah. Stacy, she's -- yep -- he was in. She's his daughter. He--she's with them. They give her a little uniform. Give her a tiny uniform?

ULBRICH: Yeah, she was a real big.

ROWELL: That's real, that's real sweet. She could be with her dad.

ULBRICH: Yeah. Mark. Oh my gosh, I cannot remember names anymore.

ROWELL: Wow. The nineties were all--

ULBRICH: Oh, this guy was Mark. I remember his first name. I remember -- their faces were all familiar -- oh! That's Stacy's husband, Felton.

ROWELL: Oh okay. Which?

ULBRICH: Yeah. They became a couple over there.

ROWELL: Which guy?

ULBRICH: That's her husband.

ROWELL: Okay. Stacy Felton's husband is here. Stacy Felton also served in the unit?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: She also served in the unit. That's her husband right here. This is all during the homecoming parade that they had. Yeah. You guys have beer and cigarettes and all this stuff.

ULBRICH: We had a twelve pack of them. Whatever I was behind, I can't. Oh, I don't see myself. I don't know where the heck I am on this. But I remember I 03:42:00caught the twelve pack and drank. [Rowell laughs]

ROWELL: Good catch. From a moving vehicle.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. More? Yeah. You can see one of the women. I don't know who she is, but. Oh, yeah, you can see the sweatshirt, too. 300 and the ordinance company. He we go. Here's the -- and that's the one of the floats on the other side. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for going over those with me Cory. Really appreciate it.

ULBRICH: No problem.

ROWELL: Yeah. And for doing it and all of your time today. And this was probably -- some of it pretty hard to go through. So, thank you.

ULBRICH: No, not as hard as it was the first day when I was printing them.

ROWELL: No, I like that. Did you do that recently?

ULBRICH: Yeah, well, couple weeks ago.

ROWELL: Yeah, thank you for doing that. These are staying with you.

ULBRICH: There's a lot more pictures, like I said. These are only four hundred. There's thousands of more.

ROWELL: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's only a third.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Wow. Thank you.

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Again, thanks for going though those with me.

ULBRICH: I didn't have a camera over there.

ROWELL: Yeah.

ULBRICH: But Stoney did.

ROWELL: You did take photos with Stoney, right?

ULBRICH: Well, I took -- I got some of those pictures I-- [Ulbrich points to Rowell]

ROWELL: That you sent me?

ULBRICH: Yeah. Those are like Stoney's that she took.

ROWELL: There are photographs that were sent to me by Cory that were digital, that are being contributed likely to the oral history program and so are covered by the deed of gift. And those are in an album that were sent to my state email kate--kate.rowell@dva.wisconsin.gov and the rest of these are being contributed to the archives collection, the photographs--the photographs collection.

ULBRICH: And if you do get ahold of Stoney she has a whole bunch of pictures too, herself, that she took.

ROWELL: And probably of your group too.

ULBRICH: Yes

ROWELL: So you'll be in them?

ULBRICH: Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay. All right. This is the photo review with Cory Ulbrich following the interview. Photos, some of the photos that were on the CD that are being contributed and the temporary receipt was given on September 20th, 2020.

[Interview Ends]