Oral History Interview with Tarra Gundrum

[Interview Begins]

ROWELL: Today is October 11th, 2022. This is an interview with Tarra Gundrum who served in the United States Marine Corps from 1998 to 2005. This interview is being conducted by Kate Rowell in West Bend, Wisconsin. The interview is being recorded for the I Am Not Invisible Project and Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. So, Tarra, let's start with where you grew up.

GUNDRUM: All right. My name is Tarra Gundrum. I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, just on the north side. So that's where I grew up.

ROWELL: What was that like for you?

GUNDRUM: It was pretty good. One of the interesting things that I always like to share about where I grew up is you don't really know how different it is or it is not until you travel the world. So very appreciative of the opportunity for traveling so that I can see kind of other aspects.

ROWELL: What did your folks do?

GUNDRUM: So, my mom was a receptionist and she also worked in TV. So, she worked at Channel Four News Station and is kind of like an administrative role there. 00:01:00So, she did that and she's very outgoing. My dad was kind of like a jack of all trades. He did a little bit of everything and nothing like really official. It was just interesting.

ROWELL: And so, can you talk a bit about your schooling experience?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, I grew up in the St. Louis Public School system originally, so kindergarten through third grade. That's where I went to school, and I was part of a program called the St. Louis and it was like an inner city transfer. So, they would allow inner city schools to bus inner city students to bus to the county for better education. So, I did that from like third grade to about eighth grade, and then I transitioned back to the public school for high school.

ROWELL: What was that experience like?

GUNDRUM: That experience very interesting. It was one that initially as a young third grader, it was all about what mom said. Mom was very excited about the opportunity. She let us know we got in the program that we were going to get a 00:02:00better education. But it was also a lot of pressure because I do remember what I call the talk. My mom told us that we were the representation for all of the other little black kids in the community, and if we did well, more would have an opportunity to attend. But if we fail, then they wouldn't get that opportunity. So, we needed to be on our best behavior. That was our like prep talk before we went. But mostly what I found is that, you know, for the most part, I can make friends, but I knew that I was different. And there were a lot of parameters around the kids that traveled to the county school. So, we couldn't play sports because there were no activity buses for after school kids that were going to the city. It all had to do with funding. So, I, I appreciated some aspects, but I knew that it was very different. But I am grateful for the opportunity because I think it expands my overall awareness of what's available in the world and the different type of people that you can meet and the different access to those 00:03:00different lifestyles.

ROWELL: And did you grow up with siblings?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. I and part of its kind of a two part sibling era. I, my mom was married twice, so she had a first marriage with two kids and my sisters. Their age is about 58 and 60 now. And the second set there were three of us and we're, well I'm 42 and then there's a 44-year-old and then my younger brother who's 40. But then also there's an interesting dynamic to where all of my nieces and nephews for my older sister who became my mom's permanent, my mom became their permanent caretaker. And we were raised with them. And my oldest nephew is only one year older than I am, so I consider them to be five extra brothers and one extra sister.

ROWELL: So how many of them have the same experience getting bused out to a 00:04:00different school or a different area?

GUNDRUM: Of the nieces and nephews that I mentioned. There was only the bus situation was me and my sister and my two older nephews. Only four of us experienced that.

ROWELL: And can you talk a little bit about handling that pressure as a young kid?

GUNDRUM: Very interesting. I remember the shuttle point being the most stressful time of my day. And what a shuttle point is, is the way the program was set up is for efficient transportation. So, there's neighborhood buses. So, a bus will come to the neighborhood and pick up all kids of all ages. It doesn't matter if your elementary school, middle school, high school, you get on a neighborhood bus, then you go to the shuttle point where once all the buses arrive and there are like 21 buses or so, once all the buses arrive, you would get off that bus and get on the bus going to your appropriate school. And what was stressful 00:05:00about that is that was the time where neighborhood rivals would fight and come into contact with each other. Gang violence would take place if girls and boys were into the fast life of trying to meet up and hook up and things like that that would happen during that interaction. So, what I experienced was the shuttle point was the time for survival. It's very interesting to describe it that way, but we always had to make sure that, like each of us got to our respective buses without getting touched. And if someone did approach us, we had to back each other up. Yeah, it's pretty crazy as a kid.

ROWELL: Very much so.

GUNDRUM: And you did that twice a day.

ROWELL: Twice?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWELL: So, after that experience. So, you went to a different high school. Can you talk about that?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, one of the things that I knew that I wanted to do was I wanted to experience sports. I wanted to play anything. And I actually had to figure out a way to get my mom on board with the fact that I wanted to leave the 00:06:00safety of a county school. Because that's how my mom viewed everything was safety, which, as you showed as a parent. But what I viewed it as separation from my own people. I mean, I was being forced out to the county school, which was the majority of, you know, the white demographic, different from where I came from, a different from where you grew up. And I couldn't do things that the other students could do because my family couldn't support after school transportation. And so, I kind of wanted to just be near what I call my own people and participate in things in the same manner that they do. So, I didn't have to feel so different. So, I convinced my mom to let me go to a military school. The reason being the military school was in the city. But the bonus, I thought for her the selling point was the fact that the uniforms were provided. All kids had to wear uniforms and they were free provided by the school. She 00:07:00didn't have to buy any school post at all. So that was my pitch. And, you know, she received the information she thought found it for me and she questioned me quite a bit as far as like did I truly understand what I was giving up effectively to go to this school, to participate in things that I never participated in. And I just reassured her that it was an experience that I needed to go through and that I'd be closer to home. I could have more access to things to try that if I try things now that I didn't necessarily have to try and figure them out later when I really didn't have the precious time to do so. And yeah, that's how I ended up in Cleveland and JROTC [Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps] high school, which was a naval JROTC academy.

ROWELL: That was more of a fair amount of the student body was black or was it.

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I'd say it was probably like maybe 75, 25. Yeah, there were several Caucasian kids and very kids of varying backgrounds and ethnicities, but 00:08:00for the most part it's about 75% black. And we were definitely in the inner city of St. Louis, Missouri. Mm hmm.

ROWELL: And then what was your kind of impression of the military going into that experience?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So funny. I didn't, it it was a going to the school was an opportunity for me to get what I wanted. I didn't really have the perspective of military history, military actions or, you know, the passion to pursue military. It was an avenue for me to get what I wanted initially. But quickly, once you get into school, you dove into the curriculum. One of the key components of that curriculum is something called naval science. And we had a chief warrant officer who was from the Navy, and then we had a master gunnery sergeant who was from the Marines. And one of the things that, you know, folks may or may not realize is that the Marine Corps for a long time had been a department of the Navy. So 00:09:00that's why they are so kind of intertwined. But I had access to both of those senior officials who had just a plethora of knowledge, and they were the ones responsible for bringing me up to speed on military operations, history in the Navy and the Marine Corps. And so, yeah, I was quite fascinated by the both of them. I thought that they had a lot to teach, and that drew me towards wanting to understand more about the military.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. So, what motivated you to actually enlist right out of high school?

GUNDRUM: Yes. So, the enlistment part of it, I like to say that I found my home after being, you know, in that school for at that time. It was three years, and it was my junior year that I decided to enlist. I knew that I wanted to go into the Marine Corps. Just from the experience that I had with his name was Master Sergeant Rowe. Just with the experience with him and just how squared away he 00:10:00was at his uniform and like everybody just kind of like that's a man to be dealt like he's a man to be reckoned with-- he's a force-- and I was like I want to be like that. Like I want to be like that poster person. But what accelerated it for me was the fact that my mom had been diagnosed with lung cancer and it was a terminal diagnosis. She had 3 to 6 months to live. And by this time, I remember it was my senior year, maybe sometime late fall, and I got the diagnosis 3 to 6 months. And I just remember wanting to do anything that I possibly could to complete something so that she could see, my completion of it, of one of her children before she passed away. And I just remember going to her saying, mom, like, I want to enlist, but I'm only 17 and a half and I need I'm only 17 at the 00:11:00time I wasn't even 17 and a half yet. I need your permission. And I would love to graduate and get, I would love to graduate, and see you in the crowd at my graduation. And so when I turned 17 and a half to the day, she signed the consent form for me. She was going through chemo already. We had some very interesting situations where, I remember she had to go to a hotel at one point to receive her treatment because she, the conditions that we lived in weren't suitable for a person of her condition. So we actually had to go to a hotel for a period of time. And that was paid for by, I don't know, some organization, but that's how she was able to get through her chemo. And a yeah, I went off to boot camp before my high school class, even graduated high school. I was actually graduating boot camp near the time that they were graduating high school was very was very interesting. But yeah, she made it to graduation. That was her 00:12:00first time on a plane. And my sister escorted her. She had grown very weak and ill and lost a lot of weight from the time that I'd seen her three months prior. But she was there. And yeah, I meant the world so. Successful mission, if you will. Yeah.

ROWELL: Did any of your siblings or some of your near siblings follow you in that path at all?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. My oldest nephew, Cantrell, he joined the Army. He was the eldest of the group of children who had basically they were going to become a ward of the state, or my mom was going to adopt them, and she just could not see her grandchildren being a ward of the state. So, she brought them in and she raised them as her own. My sister had some other challenges to deal with and yeah, my mom said, that's family and those children will not be in the system, and so 00:13:00that's what happened. And my oldest nephew, one year younger than me, he joined the Army. I mean, we went to the military high school together. We did everything together. He was my brother. We talk still to this day all the time. And, you know, they're living a fantastic life because of the sacrifices that my mom made. So, I'm just extremely honored for that and honored through that he had an opportunity through that to serve his country and his next step-, younger brother, Barry. He also went into the Army. Very successful. But yeah, it was the three of us plus one other cousin that was about our age that went and served.

ROWELL: And did that cousins also go to your same school?

GUNDRUM: He didn't go to my school. He lived in a neighborhood outside of our district. But he did go into the Marine Corps. And I when I first got to Okinawa, Japan, probably a month later, he was stationed at the Camp Hansen as me. And I just remember seeing him walking down the street, opposite side of the 00:14:00street with me with some Popeye's chicken. He'd just come back from, from like that kind of like PX area. And yeah, it was my cousin.

ROWELL: That was must have been so exciting.

GUNDRUM: That was super cool. Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. Did you know he was there before you saw him?

GUNDRUM: I didn't know either. He is in the Marine Corps, but. And I knew that he was coming to Japan. I didn't know that he had arrived yet. So, it was pretty epic. We, like spend the entire afternoon together playing video games, eating chicken, drinking beer, like whatever is so awesome.

ROWELL: And so how did the rest of your family react when you and also your oldest nephew and your cousin joined? Did they have any reaction other than support for, what was their feeling?

GUNDRUM: Well, initially, their reaction is always safety. But the group that I come from, my sister, so my eldest sister is the one who had a couple of life challenges with and she's the one whose children we ended up absorbing, if you will. But my second oldest sister, Tina, she's the one who kind of like took 00:15:00Mom's role. And so, she's always looking out for our safety. And so, she was the one who would ask us questions and just make sure that we knew what we were getting into. But ultimately, she wanted us to be safe. But I think that she was happy that we had a different avenue to choose, a way out if you will. That's kind of what it was for you to ask for all of us is a way to just kind of step away from status quo. And there's got to be more in this world for me, all of those things. And so over, from the people that matters, it was overwhelming support.

ROWELL: Yeah. Did you keep in contact with your sister Tina while you were in service?

GUNDRUM: 100%. She's literally like I she's literally my second mom, if you will. She promised my mom that she would take care of all of us and make sure that she'd do her best to look out for us. And to this day, her and her husband, 00:16:00they're the bedrock of our family. Yeah, 100%.

ROWELL: Yeah. Thanks for sharing.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: So, can you actually state your full name when you enlisted? What it.

GUNDRUM: Was? It was Tarra Ramone Pickens.

ROWELL: How do you spell the last name?

GUNDRUM: P-I-C-K-E-N-S.

ROWELL: Great thank you. And then can you tell me about that day that you were inducted? What was that like?

GUNDRUM: Oh, man, it was. It was everything. I mean, this was for me, it was a mission to do well, to excel and make my mom proud. So, the day that I enlisted in the late entry program was the same day that I graduated high school. And so, I just remember being in the conference room of my high school with our naval science instructor, the commander principal of our school. And it's kind of like 00:17:00the translation of principal to a commander. But my mom was invited, my stepfather was there, and my sister, some of my nieces and nephews that I just described, they were also being raised as my sisters and brothers and my boyfriend at the time. My couple of my best friends were there and this was my graduation in a conference room. So, they read to me my diploma, I graduated high school. And then seconds later, I was raising my hand, giving the oath to join the Marine Corps. And about a week later I shipped out to boot camp. So, I graduated officially in the conference room and left for boot camp. It was amazing. It was hard, it was emotional, and I was leaving my family for the 00:18:00first time when no one had done so, and I was leaving my mom who was dying. And I had been the sole. I was the one in the family who had my driver's license. I was the sole helper in the household for I mean, my mom needed groceries or special something to make her feel better. Her thing was like always she loves like McDonald's ice cream cones or like the McDonald's coffee it is weird to think about. She would send me to McDonald's to get a coffee with three creams and five sugars when today we just go in our kitchen and make a Keurig. But for her, it was a thing of comfort, and I was the one who was able to provide that. I had my driver's license and no one else did. So, I felt a sadness that I was leaving, a duty that wasn't going to be fulfilled. But then the joy of hoping to fulfill something in time that she could see and be proud of saying.

GUNDRUM: Yeah. It is tough to get through this conversation. Trust me. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

ROWELL: Thank you. So talk about boot camp. Where did you go?

GUNDRUM: And so, I went to Parris Island in South Carolina, and that is the place that all female Marines go. And I think males west of the Mississippi will go to boot camp and Parris Island and males east of the Mississippi will go in San Diego. That's the way that it's kind of divided up amongst the country.

ROWELL: Do you have a sense for why, especially now with your background as a drill instructor, do you have a sense for why that division exists.

GUNDRUM: At the division between male and female? I understand that reason that they use the Mississippi as a divider and kind of cross mingled. I think I understand it as giving an experience of going away from home. Not that you grew 00:20:00up in Buford, South Carolina, as a male and you went down the street. I understand why there's no not two depots for females. I mean, there's just not enough on the grand scale to make it efficient and cost effective. Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay. All right. And then, uh, so can you describe your very first memories of arriving at boot camp?

GUNDRUM: Oh, my very first memories was being on a bus and it being extremely dark upon arrival. And at some point, I was told to put my head down between my knees. Everybody on the bus was told that. And so, I think, with my experience as a drill instructor, that you don't really recognize and understand your approach and entry into a place so you can never really escape. Right? That's where I think but I don't know, no one's ever like officially told me that, but that's what I think. And so, I remember it being dark and having my head between 00:21:00my knees and then the bus came to a stop, and there's this obscene amount of screaming and yelling. Things that you can't even really understand. It's just like a very intense voice. But then you step off the bus and you're told to get on these yellow footprints, the iconic yellow footprints that you may have seen on like Full Metal Jacket or anything like that. And I just remember counting down was significant, always being counted down to the number zero and zero having the most emphasis on it. Was like, "Zero!" And then, so like, "Freeze!" And I just remember that. And then I remember going through a very specific door, shuffling, in a hurry, in a crowd, and there was a sign above the door, and it says something like, "Through these doors walks America's finest." And I 00:22:00remember being told something like, "If you're successful, that's the only time you're ever going to walk through that door." And from that point, it's like, as a recruit, you go through that door and then there are two side hatches, and you exit those. And those are the only-- you only go through that door one time and that's as a civilian. And then in that building you enter and exit the side hatches as a Marine. That's just how it goes. I remember that being significant, but the most significant piece of that day was calling my mom. I just remember being on the bus thinking about the whole time I got to call my mom, I felt like my struggle was a bit different and I didn't want to be different at boot camp. So, I didn't really tell a lot of people my story and why I was there and what I was dealing with at home. But I just remember I get a phone call like you're in 00:23:00jail, I get a phone call, and I couldn't wait to call my mom and I imagine that phone call to be very emotional and just kind of passionate. I could express to her how I was feeling in the moment and what my experience had been like on the bus and what I was experiencing at Parris Island, and it wasn't like that at all. I remember, if you can imagine a telephone box on a wall with a cover that you open, and so you open that cover and inside of that cover plastered on it is like, a note card of text that you read and you read it fast and it's loud. And it's like, "Good evening, ma'am. My name is Recruit Tara Pickens. I have arrived at Parris Island in South Carolina. I am safe, I am fed," whatever you say, but it's like very robotic. It's insane, honestly. And it was like, "I will contact 00:24:00you at my next--" blah blah blah blah blah. Click. And you go to the back of the line and that's your phone call, like literally. And I remember, after experiencing that, that was like, my life is over. I'm here for three months and whatever. Make it, like, literally. That's what I got. That's my day. That's my arrival day. Yeah.

ROWELL: And how did you feel about that? Kind of going to bed that night, or if you did get to go to bed, just that was the experience. This is what it is now. And it was not what you expected necessarily.

GUNDRUM: I think I've always been fairly driven, but I was learning how to be even more driven. And I remember, I don't know what point someone told me this that you get-- maybe it was my recruiter. You get through boot camp from child to child and Sunday to Sunday. So, it's like, you don't worry about the big 00:25:00picture, don't worry about the three months. Don't even worry about the one month. Don't worry about the week, worry about breakfast, the lunch and lunch to dinner. Before you know it, you'll be strong enough to go from day to day, and then before you know it, you're strong enough to go from Sunday to Sunday and then you're graduating. And so, I had to kind of dig into that mindset and I depended on my coach a lot from high school. Coach Ronald Newell. He's a huge mentor of mine to this day. But he was one who never pulled the punches. I mean, if anybody ever forced me to not have pity on myself and really dive deep to be the best that I can be, no matter what the circumstances were around me, is him. And he never allowed me to have pity for myself. He never had pity for me, which 00:26:00made me grow up and made me focus on the big picture. And so, I remember writing him probably something sappy like, "This is hard," or whatever, and then him being extremely sarcastic as he always was and just basically telling me to like suck it up in so many words. But he would also give me several analogies of things that I could relate with, which was I was in basketball, he's my basketball coach, I played position number four, power forward, sometimes center position number five. And he would always compare everything to Dennis Rodman when it came to my existence and Dennis Rodman was fearless in the paint. I mean, he was smaller, he was underestimated, but no one was going to get that rebound. It was his mission to get that rebound. And he always tried to train me that way. So, we'd have analogies like that. But one of the biggest things that 00:27:00he told me that sticks with me to this day, and I still live by it is a quote, forget who it's from originally, but it's "You will miss 100% of the shots that you don't take." I believe that's Phil Jackson from the Bulls, I think. And yeah, to this day, I use that and that's a huge instrumental mentor in my life. And literally going back to some of those things and things that my mom has said and all those things helped get me through boot camp.

ROWELL: And then, is there anything else about that transition that sticks out in your memory?

GUNDRUM: And I think the biggest transition that I didn't head on was absorbing the differences of people and backgrounds and where they came from. I just remember not having a lot of intermingling comfort with folks of different races 00:28:00and ethnic backgrounds. Indians, Muslims, whatever, I just didn't. I only knew what I knew. I grew up Baptist, I went to a Baptist church, I believed in God, and I primarily was surrounded by the majority of black people all my life until I went to the middle school, which I hated, and I wanted to get back to my people. That's what I knew. And when I got to the military and in boot camp especially, there was this thing where there's no black, there's no white, there's only green like you're only green like Marine. And these are your sisters and your brothers. I don't care who they are or where they're from, they're the ones responsible for saving your life. And that meant the world to me. And so, while I can never say that I was 100% against anyone, I can say that 00:29:00my experience in boot camp made me really focus on people genuinely as people and in my mind and in my heart, all barriers were removed. Yeah.

ROWELL: Was that your own experience from others as well?

GUNDRUM: Not always. But I do think that the way that I was raised, knowing that-- so when you figure out how to approach something yourself, it allows you to be considerate and have grace and recognize the fact that not everyone is at your place. I learned that very young as a child and I don't know if it's given to the accelerated way of my lifestyle, but when I learned that it was very much easy to accept the way that other people felt and the way that they reflected to 00:30:00me. If my experience wasn't the same, it didn't get me down as much as it would have prior to me recognizing that people are people, if that makes sense. Yeah.

ROWELL: The uniformity that comes with-- it comes with boot camp and that probably maybe came with your high school experience, was that ever a challenge for you as a person with a strong individual identity?

GUNDRUM: The uniformity, it wasn't a huge challenge. It honestly wasn't a huge challenge until I was much more mature in my Marine Corps career. I think because you get stronger. So, there's this growth phase, right? You go into boot camp, and this is all in my opinion, you go into boot camp and you have something to achieve. You have this task, this monumental task ahead of you. And 00:31:00you need to be successful. And you have all of these people with the same challenges in front of them. You may not know what they are, but you need to get to the same place. Graduation. Now, once you graduate, you've effectively weeded out so many people that aren't of that caliber. They didn't make it for whatever reason. But now you're in the corps, now you're a Marine. And so now you're effectively competing for specific spots. So, you can be standard status quo, you can just get up and go to work and do your job, or you can have the desire to excel, excel quicker than what time and grade will allow, which means you have to put in additional work. So now you're learning who those people are, so you're separating from these classes. The only reason I know that is because I worked hard in boot camp. I wanted honor spot, and I missed it by like one point. And it was on the rifle range, the rifle range wasn't my highest. I mean, 00:32:00I was a marksman when I graduated, so I was happy. That's what got me in boot camp. But I was a meritorious corporal. I competed on meritorious corporal board, and I did win that slot for my company, Meritorious Sergeant I won for my company. And you start to kind of distinguish yourself between just standard individual and then accelerated individual. And so that's how I kind of started to see the difference. Yeah. I don't know if I totally answered that in a very roundabout way.

ROWELL: Oh, no. Fine. And what do you think you did to try to distinguish yourself most?

GUNDRUM: I think-- so, my mom. My mom is the bedrock of-- it's just embedded in me. It's interesting. I tell my kids today that I didn't have all the time with 00:33:00my mom that I wish I would have, but I feel like she instilled in me a lifetime's worth of knowledge and just tidbits that I could pick from throughout my life. She had always told me that your job is never to fit in. She's like, "You're different. You're not like everybody else. You don't fit in. You stand out. That's just who you are." So, it was always if you walk into a room, you leave it cleaner than you found it. If you show up and there's an elderly person, you treat them with respect. You open the door, you help them with their groceries, you walk them across the street. These are things that most societies would teach men. My mom taught all of her children that. So, you'd see me at 12 years old seeing an old lady try to cross the street and I go, "Can I help you with your groceries?" Like, "Can I get the door?" Like as a 12-year-old girl. That's just how we were raised. And so, all of those things made me stand out, I 00:34:00guess. I constantly volunteered. My kids called me a teacher's pet. I just remember always volunteering. And I could never sit quiet. If someone ask a question and no one answers, the teacher says, "What's 3 + 2?" And no one says four, I feel the need, like I'm compelled to say something, but I don't know. But that's me and that's how I grew up. And that's how my mom raised us. She always wanted us to try and never be afraid of failing. So I think, of course, I took that into the military and it pushed me to be my best. Yeah.

ROWELL: Are there any specific memories that you want to go over from boot camp before you move on to your combat training?

GUNDRUM: I think we pretty much hit everything pretty good. Yeah.

ROWELL: All right. So, given that, also, were you assigned to a specific unit at 00:35:00this point?

GUNDRUM: At this point, no. In boot camp, you're not really assigned to any particular unit. I think you have an idea of where your MOS [Military Occupational Specialty] is going to be going into boot camp. I remember-- I don't know if that was finalized sometime during boot camp prior to getting your school orders for your MOS school. I feel like maybe I knew that already. I don't know. It was pretty blurry.

ROWELL: Did you go to your combat training before you went to your MOS?

GUNDRUM: Correct. Yeah. And that was in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, for MCT. Marine combat training.

ROWELL: And do you want to tell me about that? What was that like?

GUNDRUM: You know, there's not a whole lot to share. I just remember MCT being the first time that we were treated as Marines. I remember being warned by, just senior leaders, people that I had access to, who would say, like, MCT is great. It's the first time that you're kind of experiencing freedom. It's almost like 00:36:00someone graduating high school and going off to college and having access to all of these things, kind of like graduating boot camp and going on to MCT and having access all these things. I just remember being warned about, hey, be careful like yeah, you have access to mainly males, males and females have access to be together. Just don't do anything stupid, don't get pregnant, don't overly indulge in any sort of excessive whether it's alcohol or it's-- not really any drugs on the scene or at least that I was privy to. It was just kind of like, be careful. Go to MCT, do your thing. Your big goal is to get on to the Fleet Marine Corps and serve your country. So don't let partying and all of this excessiveness get in the way. Yeah, that's the only thing that I was kind of warned about and yeah, MCT was fine. I don't have any extreme memories that are positive or negative.

ROWELL: And do you feel like there was-- do you have a sense for whether that emphasis on kind of your conduct, especially in terms of sexual relationships, was that more intense for the women or what do you think about that?

GUNDRUM: I found it very intense for all. And it was like that consistently through my career. I remember, fast forwarding a bit here, but I remember getting to Okinawa, Japan, and the chaplain stepping out in front of us and giving us like a brief before we went on holiday. Because I arrived like smack dab before Thanksgiving. I arrived, I went through a bunch of processing and then it was time to go on Thanksgiving '72, or '96, I think. And it was something like, the basket of condoms was there. And it was like, I forget the spiel. I can't believe I forgot the spiel. But it was a very weird like, "If you do something, wrap it," very [laughs] something like if I don't make any 00:38:00illegitimate children, it was very weird. Don't come back with an STD. It was a very-- and the chaplain was saying this. I was like, what? It don't sound like anything like my preacher back home in my little Baptist church, but it was very focused. It was for both genders. It was crazy.

ROWELL: Good to know.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. And then what did you learn at MCT?

GUNDRUM: You learn Marine combat training. So, you learn how to perform under extreme conditions of war. Basically, they try to teach you how to survive at war. So, I remember learning kind of like the basic moments of combat. They teach you lots of ditties to help you remember. So, one of the basic movements is how to advance during combat. So, during fire. So, there's this ditty like, 00:39:00"I'm up, they see me, I'm down." So, for you, that's literally you're out there with your weapon, you're up, you're running forward, they see you, you get down on the ground, you low crawl, then you do all of these things for a period of time. So, it could be "I'm up" for 5 seconds. "They see me", I'm down. Then I'm crawling for 5 seconds and then you just go through this, and you zig zag and you're never predictable. But I feel like everybody probably know that that's what you're doing. I don't know.

ROWELL: Can you remember any others like that?

GUNDRUM: I remember-- see, I think MCT was the first time I ever threw a grenade, I believe. Yeah, it was pretty intense.

ROWELL: It was a live grenade?

GUNDRUM: Live grenade, yeah. And you're in a bunker and you kind of have to pop up enough to accelerate over the wall. And I just remember this gal on her 00:40:00practice grenade didn't clear the wall and it hit the wall. It was a mess. Everything was okay, but I just remember [inaudible] like, wanting to get up and get my arm over the wall and get back down. So, I do remember that. And then, yeah, I mean, not anything drastic. It was a quick go of learning how to-- for me, it was a step. And I think the reason that I don't remember a whole heck of a lot is I was pretty rushed at this point in my own life. My mom had made it to boot camp. I had graduated and I literally picked my MOS mode of transportation based on the location of the school, simply because I knew that I'd be as close as I possibly could to my mom for however long she had left. So MCT was a thing 00:41:00that I had to do before I got to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, which was close to my home so that I could in hopes see my mom or be there when she passed. So that was my goal. So, MCT was kind of like, hurry up. For me, in my mind. And I think that's why it's not so significant.

ROWELL: Right. And then for that motor transport school, where you able to be there for your mom in the way that you envisioned?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I got to Motor T school. I made it to week, I believe, four. I remember getting a call from the Red Cross saying, "Get home. If you want to see your mom, you need to leave now." So, it was middle of the night, I think I was called down to the commander's office hut at like, 2 a.m. and I was at 5 a.m. Greyhound bus, and I made it home literally moments before she passed away. So, we said our goodbyes and probably within an hour she was gone. Yeah. Yeah. It was tough.

ROWELL: Did you get hardship leave at all?

GUNDRUM: Well, I forget exactly what happened in that moment. It's a blur. But I do remember starting my-- yeah, I must have, because I think I stayed home for probably two weeks total. I was there for the funeral; I had missed a very significant point in the training at that time that accelerates you to phase two. So, I picked up with the next class. So yeah, I didn't graduate with my original class in training.

ROWELL: What was that like for you?

GUNDRUM: That reset?

ROWELL: Yeah, that kind of reset. And not graduating with the people you entered with.

GUNDRUM: It didn't matter. I mean, honestly, by that point, I was on a personal mission. The people that I met and become friends with, yeah, that was all fine and dandy, but I was there for a reason of completing and being close to my 00:43:00family for my mom. And so being reset wasn't the hardest thing in the world, I mean, it was just a formality. I was already a Marine. I knew that I was going to move forward, and this was my last ditch effort to be near my mom. So, yeah, it didn't matter.

ROWELL: Yeah. So, at Motor T school, what were the primary things that you learned for your MOS?

GUNDRUM: So, for motor transportation your primary role, our role is, troop movement and gear movement. And so, you have to be able to successfully do both of those things safely with-- your goal is always zero traffic infractions or rollovers or incidents. But if it's not perfect, that zero is as minimal as possible. So, one of the vehicles that we drive is the Humvee, and then there's the five-ton, but then there's stick shift. That's five-ton. So, I'd never 00:44:00driven a stick shift before and I learned in a five-ton and I learned with one of the most intense drill instructors ever-- Motor T instructors. But I just remember his name was Gunnery Sergeant Patrick and he would scream all the time and I'm like, shifting incorrectly and I'm going around a curve and I'm like, freaking out. And he's intense and I'm like, "Gunnery Sergeant, I can't do this if you're yelling at me!" It's a mess. So, at any rate, I got through it. I successfully graduated Motor T school, so there's that. And then I remember vividly cattle cars. I don't know if you know what a cattle car is, but it's literally an open box frame that's pulled behind a truck that hauls cattle. So, 00:45:00it has holes in it. If you're ever going down the highway, you can see a cow's nose through it or something. Yeah, well, this was our transportation as students at Motor T school. We'd get in a cattle car. We'd be moved around in a cattle car. And I just remember finding that so fascinating. Coming from St. Louis, Missouri, I didn't know what a cattle car was at first, but then when I found that we were basically being moved like animals, it's like, this is weird, but I don't know. I remember that from Motor T school too for whatever it's worth.

ROWELL: And that was standard. That was just-- that was it.

GUNDRUM: Yeah. That's how it was. I mean, that's how you got the most effective transportation. By putting I don't know how many Marine students in a cattle car to get them to where they needed to go. That was the thing.

ROWELL: Kind of reminds you of World War One with the train cars with a certain number horses.

GUNDRUM: Yes, exactly. Yeah.

ROWELL: Interesting. And then so, what was the dynamic like with your classmates 00:46:00when you're at Motor T school?

GUNDRUM: I think we were all-- it was kind of like being back in high school but accelerated with pride. You weren't under such scrutiny from the instructors. Like, you're no longer in boot camp. You're officially a Marine and you're learning your occupational skill. You had roles and responsibilities. So, now you have class commanders again, you have people amongst you in your cohort who are responsible for certain leadership roles. It was good. I mean, it was your way to learn and adapt as a functioning Marine-- Fleet Marine Force. You hadn't yet attended your first duty station, but you were learning and preparing to go there. So, it was kind of like a transition space where you kind of gained your credentials and kind of learned your worth and what you were supposed to be doing in the Corps and you're getting ready for the next step. Yeah.

ROWELL: And so, kind of speaking of Patrick, right? Were you kind of glad to be away from that intense drill instructor kind of energy that was brought and then he kind of brought that back or how are you feeling about that, in terms of the instructors you had at, I guess MCT or Motor Transport school. [inaudible]

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I think, in all situations, having gone through it and then having been the person on the other side of it, I recognized quickly, and I even recognized this as a young Marine in boot camp and in Motor T school, that the jobs of these instructors were to produce a qualified individual who could successfully complete the mission. Recognized that clear on. So, through all the yelling and screaming and the hard times, their mission was to make me the best that I could be, so that I could be a great representative of the Marine Corps 00:48:00and ambassador, whether on foreign soil or out in the community, whatever that meant, I would be a great representation. So, while it was hard, it was still so meaningful, and I never held any animosity towards any of those folks.

ROWELL: At that time, did you view that as inspirational or aspirational?

GUNDRUM: Absolutely. These were the people that you aspire to be like. I mean, I think that if you didn't feel like that, that what were you doing there? Right? I was there to not just fill a bucket or check a box, I was there to perform. And the only way to do that is to learn how to perform and learn from the professionals who are teaching you. So, I don't know, I'm wired that way. So, yeah, it just works for me.

ROWELL: Just clicked.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. All right. So, after your training, when did you find out where your first duty station would be, or where, rather?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I think I learned about my duty station midway through my 00:49:00training. And I had chosen Okinawa, Japan. I had never traveled out of the country. So, for me, everything was an opportunity and that was my first pick and I got it.

ROWELL: And then, so what unit did you serve with at that time?

GUNDRUM: I went straight to Truck Company Headquarters Battalion, 3rd Marine Division. Interesting story for you. So, when I arrived, for some reason, I thought that it was already decided where I was going to go. It's not that way at all. When people say, oh, you're just a number, you're literally just a number. You're a quota. So, I remember getting there amongst maybe 40 or so people, and I was somewhere towards the front third. And I remember going to the sergeant on duty when I arrived in Okinawa saying like, "I have to go to the restroom," or whatever I said and he said, "Oh, that's fine, just grab all your stuff, take it with you and when you come back, get at the end of the line." 00:50:00Which I did. And so, this is how it went down. It was like, "You three, you're going to this battalion. You ten," or whatever, and then you next ten, you're going here, and the rest of you guys are going to Truck Company. That's how that went. That's how you're assigned your unit. Yeah. So, very interesting. And it just so turns out that the driver for the rest of you guys was a guy named Jason Gundrum from Allenton, Wisconsin.

ROWELL: All right.

GUNDRUM: Yeah, and that's how I came back here.

ROWELL: [laughs] We'll get to that, for sure.

GUNDRUM: Yeah, yeah.

ROWELL: Sure, yeah. And so, what were your first impressions of Okinawa?

GUNDRUM: I remember taking it extremely serious. Not being well versed in the culture. I knew that there was some animosity towards Americans because of the 00:51:00war efforts and the way that ancestors of that region felt that they were treated, and they really didn't have any desire to be around Americans. And I remember being kind of part of your in briefing of cultural things and just kind of squaring you away on what's going on in the area, how you as a Marine are a professional and you're an ambassador of the United States and how you're a professional driver and if you have an accident, you're already 50% at fault, like learning all of these things firsthand, it's like, whoa, I don't want to be the person that does something wrong that makes my country look bad. I learned of a kind of unwritten boundary that is more up north that elder Okinawans would retreat there with the understanding that we would leave them alone and not be 00:52:00there. So, there's a divider up north in Okinawa that you just don't go past. And if you go, you're passing through, but you don't hang out, you don't surf, you don't go out in the community, you don't do any of those things. You leave those people alone. Now, south of that divider line, folks who are more like, okay and kind of intermingling Americans and Japanese and you can do things like join a karate club or go kickbox or join a karaoke out in town or shop and all of those things. So, it's very interesting that way. I understood where they were coming from, and I respected it. And as did a lot of other Marines. The overwhelming amount of freedom that I experienced being in a different country on my own, experiencing that is just what I always envisioned, that the world is so much larger than I knew back in St. Louis, Missouri. So that was very 00:53:00powerful for me, and I think it gave me a lot of ambition to want to do more. To want to experience more. So that's what Okinawa did for me.

ROWELL: What were some of those experiences like that you chose to have in the community?

GUNDRUM: Yes. So, one is martial arts. I ended up taking on a discipline called Shorin-Ryu. And the grandmaster, his name was Grandmaster Fusei Kise and he had a dojo out in town, a traditional dojo and I got involved with that and I was learning the art of Shorin-Ryu, which is a kata-based martial arts, more kind of numbers, movements and ways to move your body in a flow that you can experience and affect in different ways. And I did that for something like, maybe $30 a month. And I remember Grandmaster coming to the United States long after I was 00:54:00out, and it costs almost $900 to attend a seminar of his for two days. So, I was just really thankful for the opportunity to participate in something like that while on the home country soil, in the environment, working with Japanese students that were three or four years old that were probably more conditioned and hardened than grown Americans. It was just fascinating to be around, that they are-- they're grown up, they're immersed in this culture of martial arts and this style of discipline that I just only wish we had the opportunity to expose our children to these things at such a young age. It's just amazing. So that's one. Lots of kickboxing. I did that in traditional kickboxing rings in Japan, which was very interesting. Thankfully, I had the support of some very 00:55:00seasoned senior martial arts military people on my back. Master Sergeant Franklin was one who trained me in the art of kickboxing and got me my first kickboxing match out there. And then my husband and I really took to the Japanese way of kind of like massaging, they do all of these-- I forget the name of it right now, but foot massage, hand massage, out in town. It's way different than the commercial stuff that you experience if you go into a masseuse shop, this was their real like, this is why we do what we do. Here's the incense, here's the-- like, all of these things, the music is crazy. So that was really fun. It was very cheap. So, we did that. Karaoke was a big thing of ours. Immersed in the Japanese culture. Karaoke is huge in Japan. And so, we did that and I think that's probably it. I think my husband tried his hand at surfing a 00:56:00little bit, but that was about it.

ROWELL: Did you ever experience-- did you ever feel that any of your experiences in the community were shaped by the fact that you're a black woman at all? Did you ever feel that?

GUNDRUM: No. It's funny. I didn't really-- this is going to sound crazy. I knew that I was black, but I never thought of myself as black. I literally held on to the green thing that I learned in boot camp. I'm just another Marine. Gosh, it wasn't until I married my husband or worked that out that I was marrying my husband, a white man, that the whole black and white thing came back into place. I never viewed about-- I never viewed it that way.

ROWELL: And so, actually, kind of on that topic, too, if you don't mind me asking. What was it kind of like to be dating and dating somebody in the same, you know, whose work was proximal to yours and while you were abroad, too? What was that like?

GUNDRUM: Well, it was interesting. So, in my mind, I've always been kind of like a free spirit and a strong- minded person. So, what others thought didn't really matter to me, and it was pretty matter of fact. And so, when I thought that I had feelings for my husband and I wanted to pursue that more, I just did it. And it didn't matter to me at all that he was of a different color than I was. And the thing is, anyone that was going to judge me about it wasn't in Okinawa, Japan. They were more than likely back in St. Louis, Missouri. And I didn't have to deal with that. So, I didn't care.

ROWELL: And so, did any of the NCOs or anybody with authority have anything to say about your having a relationship?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, like I said, the fact that I was black dating a white man didn't come up until I had a master gunnery sergeant, whose name I'm just not 00:58:00going to disclose, but I just remember getting word that he had summoned me to his office. And so, I went to his office and his inviting words were, "Pickens. What's this I hear you're going to marry that cracker?" And my expression was like, [shocked]. Like literally, I'm like, what? And I was like, well, this is me, the-- I don't know what I was, lance corporal or whatever at that time. I was like, "Well, Master Gunnery Sergeant, he's not a cracker. We're all green Marines." That came out. He was like, "Whatever. I'm just telling you that you got to be careful. You got to know what you're getting into." We were ordered to go to marriage counseling, and it was for three months. And it turns out that that's not uncommon because I thought that we were being treated differently. 00:59:00And it turns out that that's not uncommon. If your command thinks that you are potentially making a decision for reasons other than love, like, whether it's you're getting married so you can get extra BAH [Basic Allowance for Housing] or you're getting married so you can move out in town together in a house and be paid-- like, people actually do that which, unbeknownst to me, I had no idea. So yeah, we did the counseling, but I mean, that really struck me as what the heck. He was really looking out for my best interest. Like, honestly, he was. As this young girl from St. Louis, Missouri, absorbed by the Marine Corps and this ideal that we are all just green Marines, and I had lost touch with reality and he was trying to bring me back because his point, which he could have articulated differently, was that right now you're on an island and someday you're going 01:00:00back to the mainland. You got to be ready for that. And he just wanted me ready. I don't think that he cared that I was marrying a white man. I think he just wanted me to recognize that I was marrying a white man, which I think I thought that I recognized. But he was trying to get me to recognize it in a different way. So, I can understand and appreciate that now, while I don't know that I ever would have welcomed his opinion, I did not seek it. I did not care for it. And I can genuinely understand generationally where he was coming from. And that's fair.

ROWELL: Was he quite a bit older or was he--

GUNDRUM: Actually, he would have been considered to be maybe a bit older than a father figure to me at that point. Yeah. And I think that's what he was trying to do.

ROWELL: Right. Did anyone ever offer their opinion to your husband at that time when you were about to be married or were married?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, he received his feedback. Some of it he probably, I don't know 01:01:00that he ever told me or would tell me, but he did share some things that he learned more so back from his family side of people back here in Wisconsin that just weren't sure that he was focused. I mean, he brought me back to Washington County, Wisconsin. It's like 98% white. I might be one of the ten black people in Washington County at the time of us getting married.

ROWELL: And what year was that?

GUNDRUM: That was in 1999.

ROWELL: So, the year after you entered the Marine Corps?

GUNDRUM: Literally. Yes. Yeah.

ROWELL: What was your family's reaction to you getting married at that time?

GUNDRUM: It was really all about, like I said, I'm very accelerated in what I do. And it's like I make a decision to do something, I literally just do it. So, I think my family was used to the fact that there's not a lot of time between my decision making, but if I make a decision, I've thought through it and I'm 01:02:00willing to fight through whatever it needs to be successful. And I think that's what they recognized. And they were, of course, after a couple of questions, 50 questions from everybody, it was like, well, she's getting married. Okay. And my sister Tina was like, "I'm planning your wedding." And I literally did nothing but show up with my husband in St. Louis and that's where we got married. My sister did everything. Yeah.

ROWELL: So, did you travel from Okinawa home to St. Louis to get married?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. We both together traveled from Okinawa to St. Louis. My husband's entire family traveled down to St. Louis from Wisconsin in a snowstorm. But we had a very well attended wedding. It was absolutely beautiful. And there was quite the collaboration between my sister and my husband's mom, Sherry. And they worked together to make it all happen. Yeah. That's very, very beautiful.

ROWELL: That's wonderful.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: Was anybody in uniform for the ceremony?

GUNDRUM: My husband. My husband was in uniform. And, oh gosh, his best friend 01:03:00from Okinawa, Japan flew back, but he wore a suit. He didn't want to outshine my husband by being in his dress blues. So, he wore a suit. And my husband was the only person in uniform from the Marine Corps at the time. And then, since I had graduated from Naval Junior ROTC Academy, my entire Naval Color Guard from my high school, along with that master sergeant that I was telling you about that so inspired me, they showed up and they presented swords and I walked underneath the sword arch at my wedding and my coach was there. It was phenomenal.

ROWELL: That sounds so special.

GUNDRUM: Yeah, it was so great.

ROWELL: Wow. You must have felt incredibly supported by those people.

GUNDRUM: Oh, so supported. I mean, that was my family, and it showed for them to be a part of something so significant in my life.

ROWELL: Yeah. And so, what was it like-- [coughs] Excuse me. What was it like 01:04:00then going back? Back to Okinawa because you were there for a couple more years, is that correct?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, after getting married, it was like a new beginning. We had the opportunity to move on into town, so we had our own apartment. We were no longer in the barracks. We were able-- I believe we already had cars and one of us had a car or something like that. But we were our own individuals. We were starting life as a married couple in the Marine Corps, and it was great. We had our favorite place to go, it was super like, cringey, out in town. It was called Mickey's and Mickey's was right outside of Camp Hansen's gate in the area that we lived. And I remember we were so poor, like we were just broke. He was a corporal and I was a corporal. And I remember we would always go out and split 01:05:00like, chicken nuggets and French fries and order two waters. It's like that's how broke we were. And we drew out our plan, our life plan, on a napkin sketch. And it was, now that we're married, we're going to have children right away. We want to have two kids and we want our kids out of the house by the time that we're 45. That was our plan because we wanted to-- it was part of my drive of wanting to be there as a grandparent for my grandchildren while I was young enough to enjoy that aspect of my life. And also, the fact that my mother had passed at such a young age, I wanted to be there for my children until they were strong enough to stand on their own. And so that was literally the passion behind us wanting an accelerated lifestyle. Then we got going right away. We had 01:06:00our first child in 2000. We had our second child in 2006. And I am 42 and I have a 16-year-old that's a junior in high school. So, we're on track.

ROWELL: Two years.

GUNDRUM: Yeah, yeah.

ROWELL: [inaudible]

GUNDRUM: We are on track. Yeah. And so, I just remember that being so important to us, to plan our lives like I plan everything. And my husband is not so much a planner, but he was along for that ride for sure.

ROWELL: I think we're going to take a pause for time--

GUNDRUM: Cool.

ROWELL: And we'll be right back.

GUNDRUM: All right.

ROWELL: All right, this ends segment one of the interview with Tarra Gundrum on October 11th, 2022.

GUNDRUM: Awesome.

ROWELL: This begins segment two of the interview with Tarra Gundrum on October 11th, 2022. So, we were discussing your early married life in Okinawa and the planning that you did in your life and also some of your financial challenges. Do you want to talk more about your experience living as Marines in Okinawa?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I think the memory that comes to mind is the fact that we were truly on our own to figure things out. Traditionally, folks are near their home, they're near a loved one, a mom or a dad or a mentor that they could call on for experience or very particular things like, oh, I'm experiencing this, can you give me some pointers or something like that? While folks like that were always available-- [inaudible] Yeah. While folks like that were always available by telephone maybe, it's not like around the corner, right? And so, we just found ourselves needing to rely on senior members of our command, wives, husbands of our command leaders to be those people for us, to be our family, our extended 01:08:00family, when we are so far away from home. I remember having my first child and not really knowing what to do, this baby's crying, I don't know how to handle this, or I can't get her to sleep or she has colic or she won't latch on or all of these things. And I remember this lady named Catherine Robertson. She was the wife to a sergeant in our command. And she was like my sister or my, I don't know. I don't know what she was. She was this amazing human being who was there for us. And she would help us when our child was really giving us-- we were at a point where we just didn't know what to do. She would help guide us with like, adding cereal to milk. That's a big thing. You just don't know how to do that. And my mother-in-law came to Japan and stayed with us for like five weeks in the 01:09:00early stages of me having given birth and helped us through all of those things. And I had another Gunnery Sergeant Lyons [??], his wife Christine was so instrumental in helping us. So, it's kind of like that whole concept of it takes a village to raise a child. We experienced that from our military family and just all the other things of buying a car and paying taxes and you experience all of those things in the military and it's people like your extended military family that helps you through it. So that was one of my fondest memories of being in Okinawa as a young married couple. We really had to rely on the resources of the spousal network, if you will.

ROWELL: Were there any institutional supports available to you through the Marine Corps?

GUNDRUM: Yes. So, like I said, there's always the counseling aspect of it. You get premarital, post-marital counseling. There were financial classes that you 01:10:00could attend, and you could always go to your chaplain for questions. You could just always ask because around that realm, there was nothing so guarded that you couldn't ask for support and someone in the command would lead you to the right direction. I think I always felt comfort in knowing that I could do that, so that was always a good experience for me.

ROWELL: Did your pregnancy have any influence on your duties at that time?

GUNDRUM: Yes. So, I was primarily in the motor pool, non-pregnant, but once I was pregnant and I reached past like, I want to say six months, I really started showing and the chemicals that I worked around, they were more so deemed unsafe for me to be around with the child. So, I moved to the company office and that's where I worked in more of an administrative role until I had my baby and then 01:11:00post-pregnancy coming back, I think I worked in the company office for a transition period before I went back to the motor pool and resume regular duties.

ROWELL: And what did you do in the motor pool?

GUNDRUM: So, yeah, started out as a regular driver, so just kind of showing up and doing my job. And then I was a dispatcher. And so, I was the one who dispatched the vehicles and assigned them out to the drivers. I'd be responsible for PMCSs, which is preventive maintenance checks and services. So that's something that has to take place every single time a vehicle leaves and enters the motor pool. So, you have to do a walkabout, the driver is responsible for doing it, but the dispatcher is responsible for holding them accountable, logging the mileage and just kind of being that self-check kind of last person to check out that person that's leaving the road. So, you'd be responsible for 01:12:00an overall assessment. You wouldn't know that I'm right now checking you to make sure you don't appear intoxicated or that you don't appear overtired, things like that. So, I did that. I love that job. I did it for about a year. And then I was platoon sergeant for a little bit before I transitioned to the next phase of my career, which was martial arts.

ROWELL: Yeah. Do you want to tell me about that platoon sergeant position and how you-- what that was like for you?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, so platoon sergeant was probably the game changer for me. Like I said, I always had been applying for meritorious opportunities or next level opportunities, and once I became platoon sergeant, I had a platoon commander, 01:13:00his name was Gunnery Sergeant Michael Clarke. He was so instrumental in my life in the Marine Corps, and he always kind of held me to a standard because I allowed him. I don't think that he forced me to the standard, but he knew that I wanted the best for myself. And so, I went to him, I was like, "Gunnery Sergeant, how do I gain the respect of a platoon?" Being a female platoon sergeant of all males, there's no other females, I'm the female. And he was like, "You can't have different standards." He's like, "If you want 100% respect, you should be able to execute on their standards. And I'll help you do that and you're fully capable of doing it." And so, I wanted it. What that meant was it mainly came down to PFTs. Physical fitness test, and that is a female was 01:14:00required to do something called the flex arm hang for 90 seconds to get 100 points. A male was required to do 20 dead hang pull ups, all dependent on age and things like that, but that was kind of the category that I was in at the moment, and that's what they needed to do to get a hundred points. And then when you get to sit ups, I think sit ups were the same across the board, like 102 minutes or something, and then on the run, a female could do something like 24 minutes and a male had to do something like 19 to get 100 points. So, for a perfect 300 PFT, those were the standards. I was confident in my sit ups, not a problem. Pull ups, I had to work extremely hard on and running I had to work extremely hard on to achieve those standards. But Gunnery Sergeant Clarke would meet me. We would go run on the weekends. He would push me before and after 01:15:00work. Above and beyond the PT. And like I said, I wanted this, and he wanted it for me because I wanted it. So, he was willing to put in the work to help me. But he also had the confidence that I could achieve it. And so that was extremely instrumental. And I remember the day I got a perfect PFT, and I remember I was in sergeant's course, and I had successfully completed the pull up portion and the sit up portion already, and I was on my run and I knew the timing that I had to keep and the pace. And there's a pacer that's around, kind of like the checkpoints, that will start calling out. Probably you can hear this person about 100 yards prior to your arrival at that person, but they're calling out like 1830, 31, 32, so you can kind of hear where you are. And I remember 01:16:00being on my own for the first like, mile and maybe a mile and a half. And then out of the blue, this guy comes. It's Gunnery Sergeant Clarke and he runs with me for, I don't know, another mile or so. And then I just remember him, us catching up on how sergeant's course was going, how him telling me that I was at a good pace, and I was doing well. But then I also remember him saying, "Well, this is the end of the road for me. If you want it, go get it." And he veered off and he was just gone. And I just ran the way that I knew how. And I think I finished like under a minute from the perfect male PFT. And so that was extremely significant. When you talk about my role as a platoon sergeant, I think achieving that and going back to the guys, even though when I went back to 01:17:00the guys was only for a small amount of time because I was on a different mission, was 100% complete respect. Yeah. It was good.

ROWELL: [inaudible]

GUNDRUM: Yeah, thank you.

ROWELL: Well, so, before we move on from there, do you want to talk at all about that experience that you had as the only female working probably in motor pool and in that motor transport. Was that the case?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, I was the-- in my particular platoon at the time of me being platoon sergeant, I was the only female, but there were three platoons in our company and that we work closely together in the motor pool and there were other females in the mix. Yeah. So, there was first platoon, second platoon and then maintenance platoon, all in Truck Company Headquarters Battalion. Yeah, there 01:18:00were several other females around. Now granted there weren't, I mean, probably out of, I don't know if you call it, if there were 60 of us total, there was probably three females. There wasn't a lot. But yeah, it was a great experience. It was one of almost like you get up, you go to work, and you do your job and you go home. That's kind of what it felt like. We had a very specific time that we needed to be there and usually a goal of when we were going home. And unless you were on the roster to go on the road, that was your deal. So, you could go home and have dinner or go for a run or go to a movie. You kind of have this regular life at that point. And so, it was a great experience. It was learning how to grow up and do what you needed to do. But I mean, it was very good. I enjoyed it.

ROWELL: Did you connect with any of those other women that were working in the motor pool or in adjacent jobs?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, actually, I was roommate to one. Her name was Walker. She was in 01:19:00the maintenance platoon. And then Zapata, she actually is back here in Wisconsin with us. So that was pretty cool like her and her husband, they married and they're back here so that was great. But yeah, the connection amongst us women was really cool. I remember even before I got married, going on my first official date with my husband, the ladies of the company got together with me, and they helped me because I was a huge tomboy. So, they kind of helped me like figure out what I was going to wear and helping with makeup and hair. And I practiced walking up and down the hallway and these dumb heels that I don't like to wear. But all of those things are things that makes you feel like family. And so, for me, it was a great experience.

ROWELL: Is there anyone else you knew at that time at Camp Hansen who was 01:20:00formative for you or who really meant a lot to you?

GUNDRUM: I mean, that's probably it for the most part. There was this other-- I don't even know if I ever told you about this, but there's this lady. Her name is Gunnery Sergeant Best. She wasn't even in my command. She was in a different command. But I only knew of her from playing basketball at the gym. And so, she's the one who told me about something called All-Marine Team. And so, I tried out for All Marine basketball team and made it. So, I played All-Marine ball for like, I don't know, eight months. It was pretty amazing. And that was my job. Yeah. And it was all because of Gunnery Sergeant Best. I mean, like I said, she's in a different unit, I can't remember which one, but I go play pick up at the gym and she was there, and she was always someone that I-- she's kind of an idol of mine because she was older, but she was very experienced at playing basketball and she was very experienced at her job. So, for her to kind of take me under her wings was like, "Hey, you ever heard of All-Marine 01:21:00basketball? Well, if you try out--" basically it's kind of like division two level where you compare it to college, but you play against the Army, Air Force, Navy, and you also play against several other colleges in the area like of your same D2 status or whatever. So yeah, I went to-- I tried out for the team locally. I forgot how they did it. Oh yeah, we went to Albany and lots of people try it out and then if you made it, you stayed in Albany and that was your job for eight months, playing basketball for the Marine Corps. So, I had this super cool Marine Corps jumpsuits and backpacks. I still have the bag, but that was pretty amazing. So yeah, that's the only other thing that I like to mention. It was a wonderful time in my life in the Marine Corps. Yeah.

ROWELL: Are there any memories or anecdotes you have from that time of being on the team and that was your job?

GUNDRUM: It's really the ability to be serving your country and being selected to be a part of a team that drives Marines from of all over the country. So that was my first-time having access to Marines from California, Marines from like all over the place. And we were from-- the two of us were from Japan. But yeah, other than that, I met so many wonderful people of varying rank and on the basketball court, there was no rank. It was we are Team Marine. Of course, there's that mutual respect. But for the most part, we had to play ball and we had sometimes two-a-days, three-a-days. And if we had a game, it was only two practices. But sometimes we'd have tournaments, sometimes we traveled to just different areas around Albany, not too far for our games, but it was pretty fantastic.

ROWELL: And that was Albany, New York.

GUNDRUM: Albany, Georgia.

ROWELL: Oh, Albany, Georgia.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: Glad I asked. Now, what was it like living in Georgia for that amount of time?

GUNDRUM: You know, I didn't experience that part of it a whole lot. It was like-- I don't know how to explain it, but if you've ever been in a location and you had a primary focus and mission and not a lot of time to pursue extracurricular activities. I have no memories of what it's like to be in Albany, Georgia. Maybe we went to the mall or something, but for the most part it was play basketball, eat, sleep, shower, basketball. Basketball.

ROWELL: Any pivotal games that you can remember?

GUNDRUM: Not so much. I just remember that was, for me, it was almost like this internal-- I've always had a passion to play basketball. I wanted to play in college. I had a knee injury that I didn't make the cut. And it was primarily 01:24:00like-- I was kind of living out a little dream that was awesome, you know?

ROWELL: What do you think were some of the qualities that got you on that team? Do you have a sense for that?

GUNDRUM: I really think it's just putting in the work. I don't know what-- I think she saw that I was constantly at the court, constantly trying to play, and I had a drive and determination about me. I really think that's what made her introduce it to me. But just working hard, I always worked hard. For me, making it to try-outs was pretty significant. Being selected for that because I mean, that was even a selection process. But to actually make the team was just-- I was just kind of living in the moment the whole time. I knew that I wasn't going to play basketball for the rest of my life, but I knew that this was a one-time opportunity, at least, at minimum, it was a one-time opportunity that I could 01:25:00embrace it and soak it all in it and kind of live out a portion of that dream that I wanted.

ROWELL: So, was this before you entered into your career with martial arts formally in the Marine Corps?

GUNDRUM: I think, yeah. So, I was still at Truck Company when I played ball, so this was pretty early. This was before sergeant's course or anything. I must have been like a lance corporal, I think. Maybe a corporal.

ROWELL: So like '99 or 1999?

GUNDRUM: Gosh, I'd have to look at a photo. It was only one season, but it could have been-- must have been '99. I wasn't married.

ROWELL: Okay.

GUNDRUM: No, I was only dating my husband.

ROWELL: All right. And you had also left that kind of spot for however many months?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. Yeah, I was literally- I wasn't married yet, so yeah, that's a good time stamp.

ROWELL: Yeah.

GUNDRUM: That was really early in my career.

ROWELL: Right. Wow. So, now talking about that martial arts piece. So, you 01:26:00mentioned doing that in an extracurricular sort of fashion. Do you want to talk about that becoming part of your military career?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, like I said, I participated in Shorin-ryu and honestly, I only got into that discipline because of Master Sergeant Franklin, who was one of the leaders of the Marine Corps martial arts program. And I just remember being fascinated by how fluid he was, and it was kind of like he could end up in a position almost effortlessly. And I just remember being fascinated by that and learning that he only got that way after years and years of repetition and practice and his discipline was Shorin-ryu. And so that helped me understand kind of like the flow of movement and using your body rather than your strength. 01:27:00It's very fascinating. But it was him who got me interested and my husband and I both started taking those Shorin-ryu classes. He was an instructor actually. So, we started in the gym on base where he would give this opportunity to any Marine who was interested. But then there was a special invitation for us to join the dojo out in town and that was extremely significant. Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah, I bet. So that, I think, before you move into that even further, you moved over to Camp Courtney at one time, right?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So that's the next piece. So, I practiced Shorin-ryu and then I-- gosh, what had happened. I was practicing. I had my baby, my first child, and I 01:28:00was kind of just getting back in shape. So, working out, I think our daughter at the time was six, maybe 4 to 6 months. Somewhere in there. She was very young. And I remember there being a quota. I was at Camp Hansen still. My husband was already at Camp Courtney because he's already working on this martial arts program. So, I think we were both green belts by this time because in order to go to this school for black belt instructor trainer, you needed to be a green belt. Pretty sure that's how that worked. And so, a quota came up for my company, Headquarters Battalion, and a quota came up for his company. And I forget exactly what that was at the moment, but it was all Headquarters battalion, but I was Truck Company, he was a different company. And so, I remember getting home one night and telling my husband like, "Hey, I have to tell you, so exciting." He was like, "Oh, I got something to tell you too." And 01:29:00I was like, "You go first." He was like, "No, no, no, you go first." And so, I said, "I submitted for the Black Belt Martial Arts Training program. I didn't know if I was going to get it, so I didn't say anything because the chances were so limited, and your credentials had to be so strong." And I said, "I made the cut. I got the slot." And that didn't mean anything, but you get to go to this school and prove yourself, right? He was like, his face was just like [jaw drops]. And he said, "Me too."

ROWELL: Oh, my gosh.

GUNDRUM: That's what he said. And I was just like, "Oh, my gosh." And so now we both were on top of the world and completely shut down in the same moment because we had a very young child and we were taught that if you accept the rigors of this course, forget about family. You don't go home every night to do 01:30:00anything but eat, sleep and breathe martial arts. You will have limited time. You will have lots of studying. There's a lot of bookwork that goes along with this and there's a lot of physical activity that goes on with it. So, we instantly thought that one of us can't go. And it was almost like we looked at each other and I'm like, "Well, how are we going to do this? Because I'm not going to tell you that you can't go here. You're not going to tell me that I can't go like, we're going." So, we ended up flying back to the States with our daughter, dropping her off at my mother-in-law's house for three months while we attended this course. And it was so intense. I mean, we literally had no time to be parents in that moment. So, two people living in the same household trying to complete the rigors of a very intense course, needing to practice. And it was just kind of perfect that we got to experience it together because I don't know 01:31:00any other spouse that would put up with the rigors of what we had to do if they weren't connected. And I remember moving all the furniture out of our living room, like pushing it aside so we could practice armbar takedowns. So, we lived on top of an apartment complex, so there's somebody who lived below us. And that person was Gunnery Sergeant Clarke. And I remember him coming upstairs and banging on the door. He's like, "Gundrum, open the door." And then I open the door and he's like, "Is everything okay? Are you okay? What's going on up here?" I'm like, "Oh, we're just practicing for our test tomorrow." "You guys need to take that outside." You know, it was just so funny, but it sounded like a domestic dispute. Like, literally, it was bad, but it was fun. It was pretty awesome.

ROWELL: Yeah. So, let's talk more about that. So, were you qualifying for your black belt at the same time that you were in the instructor course? Were you 01:32:00earning that black belt at the same time or was it before that?

GUNDRUM: Earning. Yeah. So, there's a significant amount of curriculum that you have to go through and varying steps that you have to go through prior to getting your black belt. And then even once you get your black belt, there are some additional things that you have to do to become an instructor qualified to teach others. And so, I started out-- gosh, I can't remember if I was a green belt or brown belt when I started that course, but I do recall as being varying levels throughout and then you have to-- we all had to take tests to accelerate through. Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay. And so, when did the course begin? Do you remember?

GUNDRUM: Gosh. My daughter was born October 2000, so--

ROWELL: So, 2000--

GUNDRUM: October, November, December, January, February, March-- Must have in March or April of 2001.

ROWELL: And it was a three-month course. Yep. Okay. And can you talk about how your family kind of-- we'll get into the course material, and how your family reacted to these decisions that you made as a family? Your family [inaudible] relate to the family in Okinawa.

GUNDRUM: I think that with them not having any real connection to the military and how it works, I think they had to accept what we had shared with them about the circumstances. And so, I think they respected our decision not to make our child suffer. I mean, we sacrificed, of course, but it was for the good of forward momentum, you know?

ROWELL: And how was that for you? How was that experience like?

GUNDRUM: You know, this is going to sound crude, but it's the truth. I missed my daughter, and it was very hard dropping her off, and I was very excited to see her again, but in between, you don't notice. I mean, the fact that you don't have this other thing to do because you're so busy trying to achieve the ultimate goal of why you made the decision in the first place. So, yeah, I didn't miss her a whole lot because I was very focused and immersed in the curriculum and the goal that I had ahead of me. But I can tell you that every week, checkup calls, there was not a lot of video chat or anything like that. But calling back home and speaking to my mother-in-law, just hearing my daughter babble on the other end and learning all of the things that she was doing for the first time, like walking for the first time or eating a certain food for the 01:35:00first time or going to the zoo and all of those things is very beautiful. And my mother-in-law did just a fantastic job of trying to document the best that she could. And she took all these pictures and that was back when you actually made scrapbooks. And it was the scrapbooks that had the clear plastic film you pull back and you put the pictures in there. So, yeah, she did a phenomenal job. I guess archiving memories for us to share and have for a lifetime. And we still have that scrapbook today.

ROWELL: So, can you talk about what the instructor course consisted of?

GUNDRUM: Yes. Lots of intensity. So, I'll break it down in a couple of different segments. So ultimately, we had to learn the history of martial arts in the 01:36:00Marine Corps, but also the history of significant leaders in the Corps that moved the needle along the way. So that was called warrior ethos. Warrior ethos is like, who are these significant people who made such a huge difference in the Corps and where we are and who we are today? And then another element was mixing everything that we had learned up until this point, along with every other discipline of martial arts. So, whether it be jiu jitsu or wrestling or kickboxing or all of those things is combining all of these disciplines to one that makes Marine Corps martial arts program. Through that, something called the continuum level of force was a very focus point of the curriculum. And what made 01:37:00it different from line training, the traditional line training, is line training was all about kill, kill, kill. It was like, you are a barrier to me, I'm going to kill you or you're going to kill me. But that's it. That's the only solution. Continuum level of force is you start out by vocal commands, it's "halt, who goes there" or "if you, then I", all of these things, it's reasoning from a vocal perspective. And then as something happens, which we call "close the distance", as you choose to ignore my vocal commands and signals and you continue to advance towards me, then there's a point where we're within arm's reach and we are-- I'm not after deadly force, but I'm after restraining you to a point that you can't harm me or anyone around me. So those are unarmed restraints. So those are manipulations of joints and things like that. So, you learn takedowns, arm bars, ways to manipulate the joints that would deem you 01:38:00unable to move. And then there is actual deadly force. Which those are-- oh, no, I'm sorry. It was four levels, so I think I said vocal commands, unarmed restraints, and then there's weapons manipulation where you use something else to harm the individual. To stop them from advancing. It's definitely going to be more than joint manipulation, but it's not going to kill them. So those could be something like butt-strike of a weapon, like I could take my weapon and strike you with it. Strikes and things like that. And then there's deadly force. And so, you're not listening. I can't subdue you. I actually kill you or you're going to kill me. So that's how that goes. And so, learning those disciplines and how to execute them was-- there's a lot that goes into it because why would 01:39:00you want to spare the life of someone that is doing X, Y or Z that you feel is unconstitutional or harmful to your country? So those are things that you have to just kind of trust and believe in and follow the steps and see how it goes, right? So, we learn that a lot of it. And then the other thing was trying to really experience what our ancestors experience. Our predecessors, not necessarily ancestors, but trying to walk through those motions and experience it as if we were in a combat environment so that we would know how to perform, if ever in that situation. So that's kind of like, in my mind, the breakdown of the course.

ROWELL: How is that simulated for you and how did you get out of the mindset of you know the people in the course at this point, right? And also, you're sparring with your husband, right, as well at home. How do you bring yourself 01:40:00out of that mindset of recognizing the person and putting yourself in a situation that's being simulated? And also, how do they kind of create that simulation for you?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, a great example of simulation that I'll give you is we had to survive in an ambush attack. And so, the best way for me to describe it, if you can think of a flat tree line, right? And the tree line, there's two entrances into the tree line that forms a horseshoe. So, let's say those entrances are 200 yards apart. And as you enter, you get to that horseshoe and there's a meeting point and there's a fight. And so that's a simulation of an ambush. And so, what would happen is our instructors would divide the class up, separate the group 200 yards apart. You can't see the person on the other side that's entering. A 01:41:00whistle would blow and the two people on line would charge into the woods. And so, the goal is run as hard as you can, as fast as you can, get to the point so that you can set up a great ambush and attack your opponent. And yeah, our instructors lined us up together, my husband on one side and me on the other, and they thought it was the funniest thing ever. What I remember about that scenario is really trying to get to the ambush point. Mind you, I was the only female in the course, period. So, I had something to prove and I was going for it. So, I ran as hard as I could. I remember seeing my feet and seeing my instructor at like number 18. He was like, "18, 19, 20, you're out! Concussion 01:42:00protocol! Three days!" And that was it. It was my husband who gave me my first concussion ever, and he didn't know that it was me, other than the fact that there was only one other African American in the course. And he recognized that I didn't have a gold tooth. Period. And so that's a way that we would simulate it, by setting up scenarios like that. The other things that we did was like, one of the great battles in the Marine Corps was the Battle of Okinawa. And on Mount Iwo Jima. And so, we actually went for a warrior case study where we went to the island of Iwo Jima and we simulated arriving at that beach in the face of adversity and you can't really simulate bullets flying at you and your comrades 01:43:00to your left, to your right, falling and dying in front of you. But we tried to simulate things, arriving on the beach, having heavy weight and needing to carry our bodies to safety, leave no one behind concept. So, we had something called "the bone", which was a 160 pound sea bags, was a sea bag full of sandbags. And it's to simulate a dead weight Marine averaging about 160 pounds. And so, we'd have to carry that around as a team. We had water jugs simulating ammo can and water, I mean, they carry water too and we carried all of that stuff to the top of Mount Suribachi, which is where the flag raising occurred, the ceremonial flag raising occurred. And what was significant about that was A, getting to the 01:44:00top with all of that gear and with the fellowship of your Marines, the camaraderie was just amazing. But that was also a day that-- gosh, that was also the day that promotions took place. So, time and grade promotions were available. And the folks amongst us, they received their promotion on top of Mount Suribachi. And my husband was one of those people. And I got to pin him on sergeant as the sun set on the island of Iwo Jima on top of Mount Suribachi. I pin him on sergeant, and it was just amazing. I mean, it was literally one of the highlights of our marriage. It's something that I don't know too many people. I don't know if too many people can say that they pinned on their spouse 01:45:00on top of such a significant landmark in Marine Corps history. I just don't know that there's many stories out there like this.

ROWELL: Yeah. Can you talk about what it was like to train with your spouse? Yeah, what was that like for you?

GUNDRUM: It was, I mean, it had its ups and downs. The challenges were when we were competing against each other, literally competing against each other. An example of that is I went up against my husband for one quota for meritorious sergeant and I won that. It was hard. There's ego, whatever, I mean, there's a sense of pride for the person who won, but there's a sense of failure for the person who didn't. And unfortunately, we had both of those things in our 01:46:00household, so it was difficult to navigate. Eventually, we got by on agreeing that our household benefited regardless. At least we weren't two failures, and we didn't get any pay increase or anything. I think that's how we rationalized it. But things like that was tough. If it weren't direct competition, it was wonderful. We had the leg up on everything because what other classmate or person in competition can go home and successfully practice with their spouse and have all this extra attention and know exactly kind of what to do or how to make it work. So, we were thankful in that regard.

ROWELL: Mm-hm. And you mentioned you were the only female in the course. Can you describe that experience for me?

GUNDRUM: I knew right away that I would have something to set out and prove. But 01:47:00it didn't take long for my classmates to realize that I deserved to be there. I wasn't there on a quota. I was literally qualified and focused. I was one of the most qualified individuals in our course, male or female. And I think for me, gaining their respect so quickly that there was nothing, I mean, there's nothing that they had to do for me special. If anything, I was able to help the males in certain cases, and that was phenomenal. So, I didn't have many challenges that way. I have to-- sorry.

ROWELL: Let's pause just for-- this ends segment two of the interview with Tarra Gundrum.

ROWELL: This begins segment three of the interview with Tarra Gundrum on October 11th, 2022. So, we were discussing being a female on the course, earning that respect and the difficulties that existed also sometimes between you and your spouse competing for spots, things like that. What are the other aspects of the 01:48:00course that you would like to cover?

GUNDRUM: I really want to cover the fact that the course was really designed to only award the best of the best with the tab of instructor trainer. They really wanted to ensure that the ethos and that the quality was shared with the majority of the Marine Corps rather than just spitting out black belts. I really appreciated the work that went into achieving that title because I knew that it was quality over quantity. So, while it was a daunting task, the slots were limited and the training was rigorous, it was necessary. So, I really appreciate that about the course.

ROWELL: Can you tell me about one incident that you had at the towards the end 01:49:00of the course and you were sparring with someone who I think you mentioned in the Fragout podcast.

GUNDRUM: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

ROWELL: Can you talk about that situation?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, sure. So, this was really towards the end of the course and there was a gentleman who was a lieutenant colonel. He was very instrumental in formulating the program and bringing it to where it was at the moment. And I remember him not necessarily feeling that women deserve the right to be in that title or in that position of leadership and seniority and to be respected in that manner, to hold that position. So I on several occasions had to face this but rather than face it and flee, I faced it with everything that I had, knowing that it was kind of like a fight or flight moment. It's like whatever I feel about this person or how they feel about me, if I don't perform my best, there's 01:50:00a chance that I won't be here tomorrow. So, there was like, don't take pity on the situation. Act like it's your last opportunity to perform. And so, for me, we had just completed a very rigorous training and it was about a 72-hour period where we had limited sleep, massive amounts of physical activities to complete. We had just finished a very extensive ruck march with all of this gear. And we landed at Courtney Beach and at Courtney Beach is where we did water grappling. So, if you could imagine everyone at the beach, in the water about waist deep and you are fighting. You're dealing with the pressures of the water and the tide and the body weight and the momentum and the sand. You don't have sturdy footing, all those things. And what would happen is called, you know, on the 01:51:00whistle and it's the last man standing. And so, if you and I were fighting and I won, you would instantly be out. The whistle would blow. I would turn around and fight whoever was there. Didn't matter weight, size, anything. That's your enemy at the moment. And I remember after about three or four bouts, I was still standing. And the person that I turned around was this guy, this lieutenant colonel, who did not want me there. He was pretty large compared to me. I mean, I must have been at the time about 180 pounds solid. And he must have been like 220 and he was much taller. And I just gave it my all. And I remember being choked by him underwater, almost needing to tap out. I was at the moment of starting to kind of blackout. But I wasn't going to give him the satisfaction of 01:52:00tapping because I was effectively quitting. So, I chose to do something that was technically against the rules at the moment, but that was my fight or flight mechanism because I was like, if I'm going to go out, it's not going to be for tapping. It's going to be for trying so hard that I broke the rules. So, I grabbed his crown jewels. I twist it and I pulled. It's called the good old grab twist pull. And that's what I did. And it was that that made him let me go, the choke, just enough that I could get out. And I thought for sure I was done. But in the end, he shook my hand and he said, "Marine, I will fight with you any day." I think he recognized the fact that I was trying to survive, like literally trying to survive that course. And that's what it meant to me. And he 01:53:00appreciated that. And so, I won his respect at that time. It was hard for me to have to fight so hard. Like, I didn't realize why I had to fight so hard to prove myself. But again, in the end, it's a part of that appreciation that it wasn't about a quota. I didn't get where I am because of quota. I didn't get the female quota or the Black quota or whatever. I am where I am because I performed. And so that meant a lot to me.

ROWELL: Right, thank you. All right. So, can you tell me about finishing the program and meeting that goal for yourself?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I-- effectively, that was it. I mean, that was the moment. Finishing that beach, I mean, there were some testing components that was, I mean, on paper, you got to go through these motions and check these boxes and do all these things. But completing that exercise, I proved it to myself. I proved 01:54:00it to my class, my teammates, ultimately my partner that I had for the entire training course. And we had done this together. And so, that, for me, was graduation. We got a certificate at some point and whatever. There is a picture taken. But that beach, that was my graduation.

ROWELL: All right. So, after this, did you go immediately to drill instructor School, or what was between?

GUNDRUM: I went to sergeant's course.

ROWELL: Sergeant's course first.

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, sergeant's course was up at Camp Hansen. And it was interesting because I came straight off of black belt instructor trainer course. And this is a time where, I don't know, it could have been something-- if there was there was something in the newspaper, you know, Marine fights for first, first female black belt instructor trainer in the Marine Corps Far East, all of these things are out there. It was in something called the Oki Mar, that Okinawa Marine newspaper. And so, I remember getting the sergeant's course, having read 01:55:00that, having been proud of it in the moment of reading it, having a copy in my closet, but that was it. Now I'm off to sergeant's course. I don't think anything. And I remember the first thing that you do in anything Marine Corps is you take a PFT. You got to take a PFT to qualify to go there. You got to take a PFT when you get there, you got to take a PFT when you leave. It's just a PFT thing. So, I remember getting there and standing in the hallway, getting ready for weigh in or something, I don't know. For some reason we were in boots [inaudible], which is just your boots, your trousers and a t- shirt. And on that t-shirt, when you have your boots and [inaudible] on, you also have your belt on. And I remember standing in the hallway up against the wall, so my left shoulder was against the wall. My right shoulder was exposed to the hallway and the people walking by. And which also means that the right side of my belt was exposed. And that's where I have the tab that shows that I'm a black belt 01:56:00instructor trainer. That's the red tab. So, I had the black belt on with a red tab, only one with this qualification in sergeant's course. There are 50, 60 maybe, very qualified sergeants, E5s in the Marine Corps in this course, and my belt and my tab is exposed. So, this gunnery sergeant walks-- I forget his name, Brown or something like that maybe. He's like, "Oh, you think you're tough?" And he instantly challenges me. Like, out of nowhere. And I'm like-- "Oh, I heard about you. I heard that you think you're all of that and a bag of chips," and like, all this stuff. I'm like, "Here we go." And at that point, I was immature, and I realized that this was the wrong thing to do. I want to say it was 01:57:00disrespectful. But in the moment, I was pretty upset. And I was like, "Well, you can take off your blouse and we can go outside." I said something like that. And that meant if you disregard your rank, the fact that you are a higher-ranking authority and we go outside, I'm going to freaking--

ROWELL: You will prevail.

GUNDRUM: Yes. Thank you. And so, that was blatant disrespect. I ended up almost pretty much kicked out before I got there. But thank God, I had humility. I mean, I knew that I was wrong. And I went over to the First Sergeant's office, that's where I had to go for this. I mean, it's like I just showed up. It's ridiculous. But the First Sergeant decided not to just throw the book at me and had grace and had basically gave me the opportunity to admit my fault and what I 01:58:00learned from the situation. And so, I disclosed all the things that I just shared with you. And I had to do some silly like paint lines in the parking lot. So, you know how you pull into a parking lot and so there's actually a machine that you can roll. Well, I had to tape it off, paint with a brush, remove the tape, and like-- so I created this template for, I think, one stall. So, it's like a divider spacer that I had and I would just run my tape and then paint my lines and my system was buy a brush the size of the line then move the thing and so I had however many weekends are in three months. That's how many weekends and I finished two weekends prior to sergeant's course graduation. But nights and weekends I had to paint that entire parking lot in green on green, which is 01:59:00like, you look like a boot camp recruit. But yeah, so I didn't care. I did not get NJP'd, which is non-judicial punishment for disrespecting a superior authority. I mean, they could get you bringing shame upon the Marine Corps and inconsistent with the [laughs] morals and the values and unbecoming of a Marine and all of these things. And I'm just like, "Yeah, okay. Thank you, First Sergeant, I appreciate, literally, I literally appreciate you letting me paint these lines and saving my career. Thank you so much. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart."

ROWELL: Why do you think that he provoked you in this way?

GUNDRUM: You know, I think that their job as leaders in that capacity is to make sure that they're not just putting someone out in the fleet to manage others and teach them the morals and values of the Marine Corps that are going to be 02:00:00hotheaded and fly off the handle and do all of these things inconsistent with the message. While I think that he was a bit extreme in his approach, I can find value in understanding that he wanted to see if I was going to prevail, logically and professionally versus physically. I think that was the goal. So, I'm appreciative of the second chance. Again, I think that the approach was intense, but I do think that my response was also immature.

ROWELL: And what did you primarily take away from that for yourself?

GUNDRUM: That I need to process what was happening in front of me and how I'm going to respond before I respond. My quick-headed response, when it comes to 02:01:00emotional things, is not always the best. So that was more of a prideful response of I just earned something that I thought granted his respect. That's not at all the case, right? It was just me having a moment and thinking that I deserved something that I didn't. And I recognized that very quickly. And it's just like, yeah, so many people do amazing things. And I'm in this group of the elite of the elite. So, just that alone, like, shut up, Gundrum. You don't deserve to mouth off to a gunnery sergeant. Knock it off. That's what that taught me.

ROWELL: So, what else did you learn, maybe within the course for Sergeants School?

GUNDRUM: You learn every curriculum of ways to manage a group, ways to manage 02:02:00different people, how to teach leadership, how to-- honestly, my biggest lesson in leadership was how I was treated in that situation, and it's that regardless, I'm a human being, but that first sergeant probably taught me the biggest lesson not only in the Marine Corps career, but it carries out into my life of people are going to make mistakes, and that does not erase everything that they've done. If they can show kind of remorse and understanding for how they went wrong, and if you can really kind of discern whether or not they're going to move forward in a more positive manner or if they're going to repeat the same thing again, then you can do something to alter their path. And he chose the save mine. And so that is something that I always consider when I'm faced with different situations of maybe someone made a mistake or maybe is not in alignment with my beliefs, but they're not completely bad and they have a chance 02:03:00where they learned their lesson. Like, those are things that I consider, and I do think that it's because of situations like that. And there were many in my life, trust me, but situations like those that really allows me to have compassion in certain situations.

ROWELL: So, following Sergeant School, is this when you entered Drill School to become--

GUNDRUM: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWELL: Drill Instructor?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, so following sergeant's course, I was out to the drill field and that was another intensive course with a similar story. I mean, but like I just said, elite of the elite. You're going to be challenged and you better persevere. So, yeah, that was my next base.

ROWELL: So, can you tell me about that? So, when did that happen, when did you enter Drill School? Do you recall?

GUNDRUM: After sergeant's course? [Laughs]

ROWELL: Okay. And it was at Parris Island, right? So, you returned to the States.

GUNDRUM: Correct.

ROWELL: And did your spouse go with you?

GUNDRUM: Yes. So, we left. My husband discharged from the Marine Corps about a month and a half before [inaudible]. And so, he had to go to Camp Pendleton, California to out process. So, he took my daughter with him and they out processed together. I remember it being cold and my daughter having her little purple jacket with the fur on it and my husband needing to cart her around the base on top of the suitcase because he had a sea bag, a suitcase-- sea bag and two suitcases and a kid, and he's trying to get through separations. And we had to take that route because I was being discharged and going straight to Parris Island in South Carolina. So, I didn't have leave or anything. Between me 02:05:00picking up my school orders and Parris Island, I went straight from Japan to Parris Island in South Carolina, and we didn't plan on seeing each other until graduation. My graduation from Drill Instructor School.

ROWELL: And how long was that?

GUNDRUM: Three months.

ROWELL: Where did he go in the meantime?

GUNDRUM: He came back to Wisconsin and his sole mission was to find daycare for our daughter and start the process of job hunting and finding us a place to live. Yeah, so that's while I was in school, that's what he did.

ROWELL: So, let's talk about that school. Do you want to start with maybe that similar event that happened or do you want to go straight into talking about what you learned, how you learned it?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I think I'll go straight into the what I learned and how I learned because the events of similarity. They're going to become more and more consistent and more and more intense as you elevate the ranks because you're 02:06:00needing to be tested, if you will. But in Drill Instructor School, what I remember was being surrounded by our instructors. So, our instructors were drill instructors. They were what we aspired to be. And I have so much respect for every single one of them. I mean, every single one of them were like the best of the best and in their own way. I mean, I can just look at the one, her name was [inaudible]. I'm not clear on the ranks, but we had a Cruz, Staff Sergeant Cruz or Gunnery Sergeant Cruz, Brown, we had all these people that were just phenomenal and that's who we wanted to be. So, we soaked up their every word. They were so hard on us. They pushed us to the limits. But you weren't going to 02:07:00graduate Drill Instructor School if you weren't qualified to be, if you weren't qualified to carry that name and step in that role and perform at a level that was to be revered. I mean, literally, you weren't graduating that school unless you could hold up to it. It was tough, but it was so worth it. Yeah. It was amazing.

ROWELL: In your mind, what made those drill instructors so exceptional to you? What were the qualities?

GUNDRUM: Well, I think the drive and determination that they must have had in order to achieve the role that they achieved. I mean, like I said, by this point, not only myself, but others in the course, they had gone through similar experiences that I've shared before, beating out others that were at a high level of approval, winning competitions or suffering in order to gain. They've done all of those things. So, you already know by this point that the people 02:08:00that's standing in front of you, they've done it to the nth degree. And so, knowing that, not even without knowing them personally, knowing that they struggled to get there in some capacity and that they stand proud and knowledgeable in a way that you still respect and want to be like them. I mean, that's what I wanted to do.

ROWELL: And what are some of those ways that they pushed you?

GUNDRUM: So, they pushed you physically, for sure. Physically, physical breakdown is always interesting. Depending on your own individual status. I categorized people in two different ways. You can get them-- They're either mentally strong or they're physically strong. They're sometimes both, but they're never usually equally both. And I feel like they attack those two 02:09:00targets. You will get some freaks out there who are both equally mentally just like, crazy strong and same physically strong. And it's going to be very difficult to break them. And you just got to work a little bit harder at what that piece is that's going to break them. Usually, it's mental. But yeah, that's what they do. They attack you in one of those ways and it's either you're on a run and they realize you're just about to drop and you're barely hanging on. Yeah, they take off. You get dropped and now you're on remedial P.T. for, like, three nights a week and every weekend. And that just sucks the life out of you, because you should be studying, you should be shining one of your multiple pair of shoes that you need to shine to look good or ironing your uniform, one of the three uniforms that you need to survive a day of Drill Instructor School. Like, literally, we would show up in the morning, sweat from marching and get wrinkles 02:10:00in our uniforms, run home from lunch, have to take not necessarily a full shower, but you might. It's so hot in South Carolina. You're soaked through your uniform, and you better show up after lunch uniform inspection ready. You must be perfect at all times. And they made that very clear at Drill Instructor School. So, part of prep is 3 to 4 uniforms ready to go, multiple pair of shoes, shine, have your food prepped and ready, sometimes I lived off of two hot dogs that I cooked in the microwave for 30 seconds each. That was my watch while climbing over my roommate to iron something or change clothes and hurry up to change clothes so you can walk back slow enough that you didn't sweat. That's the life of a Drill Instructor School student. Gosh, I remember having one very 02:11:00small, faint, fuzzy little hair between my eyebrows and failing my uniform inspection because I had a unibrow, according to my instructor. And all of those things that you think are insignificant as a drill instructor student, man, when you become a drill instructor and you go through training recruits and putting on that image so that you are someone that they want to be, it matters. Perfection matters. It was just amazing. Yeah.

ROWELL: Can we talk a bit about those grooming standards for a second? Those extraordinarily strict ones. Before the interview, we briefly talked about kind of the white standards of professionalism as they exist and that there's been a lot in the news about the way that different branches of the Armed Forces are addressing that slowly. But when you were in, was that something that you ever 02:12:00kind of felt or came up against at all for yourself?

GUNDRUM: [inaudible] standards when I was in, I mean, it was pretty status quo. From the female perspective, your hair had to be at least above the collar, so the bottom collar, and then ponytails were allowed-- I'm sorry, buns were allowed, but ponytails were not, so meaning that you couldn't just have your hair like I have it now, just the dangling, it would have to be some sort of manicure way of securing it so that it looked professional and then it was always still above the collar and then your cover would have to fit perfectly no matter your hairstyle. It couldn't be like because of your ponytail kinked up high or off to the side. There were regulatory standards that had to be maintained and then additional things that you had to do in order to maintain that. As far as male standards like the haircuts, they had to be a certain regulation. Most Marines, the high and tight was probably the go-to or a 02:13:00complete buzz cut or a number one or something like that. But usually a very tight tapered look. You could pretty much spot a Marine from anywhere kind of deal. Facial hair was definitely no unibrows, it had to be two distinct eyebrows, Marine. That's what I was told and nose hairs, ear hair, all of those things, you have to police all those things and then even down to your uniform, like your smell, you could get docked for the way I remember a guy failing because he smelled like cigarette smoke. That's what you choose to do with your time, that's fine, but you fail. Move on.

ROWELL: Did you have to press? Like, press your hair? Straightened? What was your go-to [inaudible]?

GUNDRUM: For me in the Marine Corps, it was interesting. So, I was able to-- one 02:14:00of the things that you and I were chatting about was having to conform your lifestyle or the look of your traditional style to conform with what people-- what they expected of you and what they wanted. So, one of the things that I experienced in corporate world was having to have to have more straight pressed hair. Marine Corps was different. They didn't care if your hair was nappy or afro-y or whatever, you had braid it up, do something, but we don't care that you have ethnic style as long as it conforms to above the collar, in a bun, not ponytail, not protruding past your cover. So that was different in that regard, and I didn't really experience, for the most part, when I was a drill instructor, I wore a style called cornrows. So, it's basically a tight braid to the hair with a significant part, and then you just braid the hair so that it's not protruding. That was my primary hairstyle.

ROWELL: Thank you. So, what was the gender ratio like in your cohort for drill school?

GUNDRUM: Maybe like 25% female, 75% male.

ROWELL: Did you have any thoughts about that at all? Was there any different treatment at all for you or not so much?

GUNDRUM: I don't think so much at that level. By this time, you're Marines, the standards are what they are. You've obviously presented yourself in the manner that deserved or that warranted you the opportunity to be there. Generally, throughout the Marine Corps, the male-female ratio is smaller, so you can expect that as you excel through the varying ranks in that as your classes become smaller and smaller and smaller, as you get to certain levels of achievement, 02:16:00you're going to have less females.

ROWELL: Can you discuss what you feel are the most important qualities that were instilled in you as a drill instructor?

GUNDRUM: Gosh, it's interesting. It's the same qualities that are instilled in you throughout every other course that I've described, which are love for God, Corps and country. The core values of the Marine Corps, which is honor, courage and commitment. I think that having a great moral background and an ethical line that you're not willing to cross for anything matters. And I think when you take that drill instructor pledge that you own it and you literally live it every single day. I think it's everything that I learned in the Marine Corps up until that moment and then throw on top those things that makes being a drill 02:17:00instructor so significant.

ROWELL: Yeah. All right. Do you want to discuss your graduation from drill school?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, so my graduation was so significant. One of the things, I got to tell you a story about my boot camp graduation to make this make sense. When I was in boot camp, my drill instructors to me were the same vision that I saw when I describe my drill instructors in Drill Instructor School. They were amazing individuals, but one in particular, her name was Staff Sergeant Warner. Sherie [??] Warner. She was the drill instructor that I aspired to be like. I was like, when I graduate boot camp, I'm going to go out into the Marine Corps world, but I'm coming back and I'm going to Drill Instructor School and I'm 02:18:00going to be a drill instructor just like her. I remember telling my mom that and my mom was like, "Oh, you're going to do great. It's going to be wonderful." And my job instructor knew the situation. I mean, my mom was so weak at the moment, but she was sitting in the wheelchair smiling. And my drill instructor said, "When she comes back and graduates, and she will, I will be at her graduation." And that broke me. I lived in that moment for a long time, literally. And so, when I found out that I got orders to Drill Instructor School, I reached out to her and let her know that I was joining this particular class on this date. Anticipated graduation was here approximately three months later. And I said-- I don't even think I asked her. I just told her. And we had kept in contact. And 02:19:00as she was like, "I'll be there. I'm putting in my leave. I will be there." She flew in for my graduation. And so, my husband and daughter met her. And it was kind of like they kind of met my mom in that moment, too, because there's no one other than my sister that was there in that moment. It was my sister, my mom and my drill instructor who kind of made a vow to my mom that she would be there for me. And so, by her being there, it was almost like she connected my family with that experience and that moment in time. And my family has never met my mom. She passed before I was married, so that was so significant, and she was there when I received my campaign cover. I got to show you. Can I show you-- [talking over each other]

ROWELL: Yeah, absolutely. Please do.

GUNDRUM: [showing a hat] So this is my campaign cover. This is what I earned as 02:20:00a drill instructor. And this is what I wanted from the day I was in boot camp. And this is what my drill instructor was wearing. This is what I earned, and this is what she saw me receive. So, this means a lot to me. I was given this kind of cover press when I left the drill field, when I left my platoon, when I graduated, actually. And this is what I keep it in to keep the brim nice and flat. But yeah, there's just stories all around this cover. I just wanted to share that.

ROWELL: Is there anything else you want to say about it?

GUNDRUM: I just think that it is the most visual sign of hard work and representation of what the Marine Corps means. I think when anyone, Marine or civilian, sees that Smokey cover, they call it, I think you're going to think 02:21:00power, strength, endurance, focus, core values, and hard, hard work. I think that's what it represents. And to me, it represents that once you've achieved that or learned that there's nothing that can stop you. I take that strength everywhere.

ROWELL: So, as a drill instructor yourself, now that you've graduated and earned that for yourself, you remained at Parris Island, is that correct?

GUNDRUM: Yep. So, females are only trained in Parris Island and at the time of me being in, females only trained other females.

ROWELL: And so, can you describe kind of your everyday experience as that drill instructor for those [inaudible] Marines?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, they're recruits. They're recruits until they graduate. But 02:22:00my experience was one of a fourth hat. So, I have to kind of explain to you the informal ranking, if you will, of drill instructors. So, there's effectively four levels. Sometimes only three drill instructors will manage a platoon, but in some cases, you will get four. So, the first hat is always the senior drill instructor. She's the one with most seniority of whether it be in time and grade in the Corps or on the drill field, most experience in handling recruits, but she's the one that cares, right? She cares about your well-being, someone sick at home, she gets the Red Cross called and she introduces you. She has feelings. And then there's the second hat, which is usually the drill hat. So as a drill instructor, you first got to look good, and you also need to be able to march 02:23:00because that is like how you gained stature on the drill field. It's like your platoon winning drill. You got to look good as a drill platoon for Marine Corps. So, there is that second hat who is very knowledgeable, exceptionally knowledgeable, which her responsibility is to make that platoon like a well-oiled machine and move in the same rhythm and cadence, look good, turn sharply, all of those things. And then you have the third hat, which is the knowledge hat. So, their job is to teach you everything about Marine Corps history and make you apprised of all of the things that you need to do to graduate and make sure that you pass your tests and that you know what you need to know to be successful in that category. And then there's the fourth hat, which literally all the major roles are taken. So, you're called the kill head, and that means you do whatever you can to, within reason and within boundaries, 02:24:00break that platoon down as individuals and bring them up as a team. And so, your job is to just cause organized chaos. They don't breathe. That's your job. All drill instructors do that to some level, but when you have four, you can kind of manage it that way. When you don't have four, you still do it the same and everybody takes their extra little bit of kill, right? I was kill hat my entire time down there. I was the youngest sergeant in the platoon because I had been meritoriously promoted to corporal and meritoriously promoted to sergeant. So, I was never going to be anything but the kill hat. So that was my role. I just remember driving myself crazy to maintain that. I would do things like iron two or three uniforms and have them ready to go, two or three pairs of shoes shined, just like I did in drill Instructor School, never eating or drinking in front of 02:25:00the recruits. I was this superhero person that they never saw eat or drink or sleep. I would set my alarm in the middle of the night to get up to just go have a presence with the fire watch and then go back and then go back to sleep and then not eating, but sneaking, like cutting a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in half and putting one up under one blue blouse and one under the other and yelling at the recruits and running around the corner on the side of a 5-ton and slamming down a half of peanut butter jelly sandwich and going back out and yelling and then trying to eat more later. Running in the shower in full dress uniform, only to hurry it up and change into a dry one before they even get their clothes on. Things that makes the recruits go like, "What just happened?" You have to work hard to be that crazy person that makes them think that you're 02:26:00just supernatural.

ROWELL: Mayhem. Yeah.

GUNDRUM: And so that was my experience. But I think the most thing or the thing that I enjoyed most is seeing them come in as individuals and having the ability to kind of recall that that's how a lot of us were when we started and then graduated as a Marine. And along the way, seeing their mindset changed, seeing their camaraderie and teamwork change, seeing how they started to recognize the person to their left and to their right as someone that they needed to fight for versus someone that they needed to fight with. It was very powerful.

ROWELL: How did you keep up with those demands physically for yourself?

GUNDRUM: It was tough. I mean, there were times like I remember a couple of 02:27:00crazy memories and it was just tough. But I remember following the same routine, getting up at maybe like 03:45 every day, getting in my vehicle, backing up and driving forward. Like it was this thing of you get out, you go in the car, you back up, you move forward. Well, then you just kind of do that robotically to the point where one morning I got in the car, backed up, hit my husband's vehicle behind me, looking like, oh, crap. Opening the doors saying, "Babe, I hit your car. Got to go." And that was that. It was like, I'm going to acknowledge the fact that I did this, but I'm not going to do anything about it so I'm leaving. There's that. Stuff like being so tired, going to the gas station on base thinking I put my card in and thinking I paid for it and getting gas and driving off and only to get the MPs knocking at your door because you 02:28:00didn't-- you're just incoherent. My husband and I hadn't had a break in quite some time, and I remember telling him, "I'm getting off early. I'm getting off early tonight and we can have dinner together. I should be home by 7." And so that was early. I got home and he had made a nice dinner, I mean, music going, my daughter's ready, she helped, we had spaghetti and garlic bread. Everything was perfect. And I got home, I sat down at the table, literally my husband served me up and my daughter up. He served me up and he was serving himself and he was just putting his spaghetti on the plate and going to come back, and wine was on the table. And when he turned around from the stove, my face was in my spaghetti. I'd fallen asleep in my spaghetti, and he was pissed. Oh, he was so 02:29:00upset. And he didn't get it. All he understood in that moment was I never get you at the dinner table together, and you're finally here in your sleep. And I had no control. I can't control it. So, the physical demands were extreme and but they were the norm.

ROWELL: And how did you navigate that between yourselves and how did you create separation as you needed to between your existence as the kill hat, as a drill instructor, and being home and being in your family?

GUNDRUM: Well, it was interesting how one deals with that is for the sake of our relationship, we were thankfully able to-- my husband got a job as a truck driver with Coca Cola, which was a prominent employer outside of the Beaufort, 02:30:00South Carolina area. And so, he now had his own something rather than being at home waiting on me, he now had his thing. So that made it a bit easier. And I think we just came to realize that duty station was what it was until it wasn't. And you just kind of have to make those decisions and make that choice to we could be at each other's throats, or we can know that this is what it's like until it's not. So that's kind of how we approached it. But yeah, it's different. When I was home, I was tired. I had to run. But then when I was on a different assignment, like a quota assignment or something where I wasn't pushing a platoon, I was working more of a daily admin job, that's your break. I was bored out of my mind because I was getting off at 4:30 or 5. And it's just like, "You got to be at work at 8 and you got to be off at 4:30 or 5? What?" 02:31:00This is weird. And then you're bored. I think I got a second job. That was common because you don't know what to do with yourself. But yeah, I think it's learning how to adapt with what you have and knowing that your relationship is important and that you don't have control. So why make the other person suffer is kind of what we have to figure out.

ROWELL: Do you ever find that drill instructor and kill hat persona jump out of you ever in your life today?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, it still comes out and it's funny. My boss and current coworkers, they joke sometimes, but it's the truth. It's like, oh, we need somebody like-- we need a drill instructor on this project because of whatever reason. My specialty, I like to say, is logistical movement in whatever capacity you want to think about it, whether it's moving people or getting a project complete or 02:32:00kind of thinking about the big end and how to get there, working backwards, all those things. There's a lot of things that that's what I enjoy and that comes out when I'm executing certain things.

ROWELL: Can you speak to kind of this characteristic that people describe of the frog voice for the drill instructors?

GUNDRUM: Oh, my gosh.

ROWELL: Can you talk about that for yourself, your own experience of it?

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So, my experience of the frog voice. So that's when you elevate your voice so loudly that you end up losing it. So, what you get is kind of like this force-- [in a strained, raspy voice] "Hurry up and get over here right now." You end up talking like that because you can't vocalize normally. I would actually, and a lot of drill instructors did this, I would get in my car and scream to the top of my lungs on my way to the barracks. Just scream, just 02:33:00insane. If someone was looking in on the car, they'd be like, commit that woman to a mental institute. But when you scream, you crack your vocal cords just enough that you can get sound out. And that's what we did.

ROWELL: Wow.

GUNDRUM: And you just sound like a crazy person the rest of the time.

ROWELL: Yeah. Would you come home and have no voice, or did you get to a point where you can manage it after a certain amount of time?

GUNDRUM: You are always at the point where you can manage it. You get to a point where others can tolerate it.

ROWELL: Right. [laughs] It makes sense. Is there anything else you want to talk about in terms of your experience as a drill instructor before we discuss moving to quota work?

GUNDRUM: No, I mean, I really think what I would say is that moving to quota a 02:34:00work came a lot sooner for me than normal. I wish I had the opportunity to push more for platoons, but I had a very significant thing that happened. I had been battling something called endometriosis, and it hadn't been completely confirmed diagnosed yet at this point in my life. I had just been going through probably like sometime mid-martial arts training, after I had already graduated, but I was teaching at that point. I started to experience lots of challenges, and the kind of like uterine area and never quite knew what was going on, went to several tests, several doctors, several MRI's and all that. And they kept saying something like "consistent with endometriosis". But at that point, endometriosis 02:35:00still doesn't have a solid, matter of fact reason why you get it or how to cure it. But I had those challenges and then the drill field, I remember having an appendicitis, it was. I was on the parade deck, practicing the day before graduation and you do something called pass and review. So, we're out facing in the audience. You turn to the right and you do column left, column left. And when you make that final column left, you're about to go past the parade stand. And that's when you kind of eyes right, that's when you do the review. So, my entire platoon did a column left and I'm told that I marched as straight as an arrow right off the side of the street, into the middle of the road. I marched. 02:36:00They said I was leaning back at the waist. Everything was perfect. I looked great. I passed out and I continued to march, and I passed out from my appendix bursting. And it was the curve that made me fall that broke my stride. But yeah, so my appendix burst, ambulance took me to the naval hospital in Beaufort, that's where I had the appendectomy. And that's also where it was reported that my uterus was squishy and boggy, consistent with endometriosis. That was the first time that I had an explanation for what I was going through. And it was from that point that we continued down the path and realized that I did have endometriosis and that was the form of all of my pain. But by that time, it had been growing to other areas of my--

ROWELL: Yeah. The tissue.

GUNDRUM: Yeah. So that's ultimately what led me to quota work. I had been in so much pain that it was inconsistent and effectively I was unreliable, and they needed to figure out what was going on with me. You fill that spot for the other drill instructors to manage. So that's what happened. And then I ended up discharging out of the Marine Corps shortly after.

ROWELL: How was that for you?

GUNDRUM: It was difficult because it's something that I wish I had a couple more platoons to finish, to say that I completed the full term and commitment. But at the same time, I was chasing this dream of I need to get out now, I mean, could I have stayed and maybe slugged it out? I don't know, potentially? Maybe? For a 02:38:00little while? But eventually it was going to lead to a hysterectomy that I ended up having. And I knew that I wanted to have a child. So, moving on and trying in other aspects to have a life past the Marine Corps rather than focusing on, I got to do this for this period of time. That could have dampened my opportunity to have the second child that we wanted. So, yeah, ultimately, I did end up losing my childbearing organs, but I'm thankful for Destiny and that's why she's named what she is. Yeah.

ROWELL: So, if you feel comfortable saying so, did you receive a medical discharge?

GUNDRUM: I received an honorable discharge, not a medical discharge, with a 0% rating.

ROWELL: Okay.

GUNDRUM: Yeah. It wasn't until after the fact that more follow up testing was 02:39:00learned. It's funny, endometriosis is still being learned. So, after several follow up tests, it was years before I got a percentage rating. Probably like eight years later.

ROWELL: Wow. Okay. And so, in that intervening time, did you seek out care through Veteran Services?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, thankfully, I was able to still receive treatment because of my-- so it's interesting. The 0% rating gets you access to the medical facilities for certain things, but you're not necessarily receiving any sort of monetary compensation as a result of your rating. So, while I was 0% rated, I was actually able to go to the VA hospital in Milwaukee. The Clement J. Zablocki facility. It's phenomenal. And I've had access to some of the best care as a 02:40:00result of being able to go to that facility. So, I'm really happy with the progress that we're making in that endometrio- area and so many other areas. And I have a couple of things going on, but I don't have to dive into all that.

ROWELL: Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. What date did you conclude your service?

GUNDRUM: 2005.

ROWELL: Do you remember the month?

GUNDRUM: I want to say May. I feel like May. That's on some paperwork somewhere, it's easy to find.

ROWELL: Oh, yeah, that's fine. What was the transition into civilian life like for you?

GUNDRUM: It was challenging by way of people didn't respond to requirements the same way that I was used to at this point. So, in the Marine Corps, everything was there was a sense of urgency. Something needed to be done. We figured out 02:41:00who's going to do it. We attacked it as a team. We got it done. In the civilian world, it's quite different where the urgency was less and the willingness to work as a team was less. It was kind of like you do this, kind of like quid pro quo or whatever, however you want to say that. It's kind of like how it was. I was like, man, you got to do something for somebody if they're going to do something for you. I guess they're just not going to do their job, even though it's their job. In my mind, it was like, you come to work and work, you get paid. It's not really like that. So that was challenging. Identifying what I wanted to do as a career was challenging. You kind of learn that there's not that-- all of the achievements that you think you had in the Marine Corps, they don't really equate to much unless you're dealing with somebody who understands how to work with veterans and the things that they've learned that makes them, I 02:42:00guess, a desired employee. You don't understand that unless you've worked with veterans.

ROWELL: Mm-hm. And how did that present for you in your life?

GUNDRUM: It was difficult. It was hard because I felt like all the time that I had spent was kind of-- it wasn't wasted. And I knew that it wasn't wasted, but on paper it's wasted. It means nothing without a degree. And so, in some aspect, you felt like you had to start over to achieve something that you didn't realize-- you didn't necessarily feel that you need. Like, why do I need a degree to do what I know how to do? It was annoying to me. That's pretty much the best way I could put it.

ROWELL: Yeah, frustrating, for sure. How did other people receive you as a veteran?

GUNDRUM: I honestly think that that has been the most positive, and that's how I have gotten all of my opportunities is someone recognizing-- this is funny, I 02:43:00just said it was hard because they didn't recognize. But one of the things that I've come to realize is something my mom taught me a long time ago is she would say, "If a door closes in your face, it's because God has one greater that's going to open for you." And that's literally what happened. Every time that I thought that I was shut down, I was only avoiding a disaster, and all of a sudden something great was there. And that's literally what happened in every single aspect of my life. Yeah.

ROWELL: Do you want to talk about the education piece for you following your-- when you finished the Marine Corps?

GUNDRUM: Yes. So, for education, I went to Moraine Park Technical College because I really wanted to pursue what I thought was a passion for nursing. And growing up in high school, I had supported some church members and their 02:44:00families of-- one particular deacon and his wife had had a stroke and she was 100% immobile and she needed to be fed, changed, all of those things, shifted and bed positioning and all of those things. And I was the person who did that for her as a teenager. I mean, I must have been like a sophomore or junior in high school. I did that for a couple of years. And it was rewarding for me to be able to take care of her in that way. And then also rewarding to know that her husband was kind of achieving a little bit of sanity outside of the home by not having to do that 24/7. And I was like, this is something that I'd like to pursue, and I specifically thought elderly care was where I wanted to go. It turns out that after I went and got my CNA, I was completing my clinicals, and that was the first step to moving on to the other criteria for nursing. And I 02:45:00just remember realizing that emotionally, I couldn't handle that job and it was because I was too committed and bound emotionally when my life required me to be other places and detached from that situation. It kind of made me realize partially the reason that I got out of the Marine Corps was to be more present versus so engulfed in what I was doing. So, I ended up doing a couple of random things throughout. I sold cars for a while. I was quite good at it, but it took me away from my family because you had to be there something called "bell to bell", from the time they opened to the time they closed if you wanted to be successful. So, I ended up transitioning out of that role when I got pregnant with my second child. Ultimately, I found myself in a position to serve at a manufacturing company where I got my first shot at being an executive assistant 02:46:00to the president of the company. And I've been doing executive assistant work for 17 years now.

ROWELL: So, with that, would you like to discuss your experience at Foxconn? [??]

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I thought about that, and I decided not to.

ROWELL: Okay, that's fine.

GUNDRUM: Simply because in order to tell the story, I have to bring other people into it to really give it justice and I talked to two of those people and they really-- based on their stature, they would prefer not to.

ROWELL: No problem.

GUNDRUM: So, it's not going to make sense if I tell it.

ROWELL: Okay. All right. Well, we will fast forward. So, would you like to talk a little bit about your current position? It was project manager, executive assistant to the Washington County executive.

GUNDRUM: Yeah. I think my current position is interesting. I never had the desire to go into anything political, government. And I got a message from a guy 02:47:00on LinkedIn saying, "Our office is really looking for someone with your talent. Would you be interested in having further conversation?" Or something very similar to that. And I had no idea who this guy was and what a county executive was or anything. But I did a little research and I ultimately agreed to have coffee under the pretense of like, if obviously I wasn't interested is what I clearly said, but maybe I can learn more about the position and share it in my network. And that literally presented an opportunity that I was excited about now and I took the job. So, I staff the senior elected official in the county and that's titled the county executive, some counties will have a county administrator. But, you know, we have an executive in Washington County and I'm thankful for the opportunity because he is a veteran. So, a lot of the lingo and 02:48:00my approach to a lot of things is recognizable to him. So, that's always a positive. Ultimately, I get to serve the constituents of Washington County. So, being in the role and having a leader with that type of responsibility allows me to answer constituent questions or kind of be there as a person who can create a path if they have questions. But ultimately, I get to staff an official who I believe in, do everything behind the scenes that will help him execute his mission and strategic platform and ultimately through him, I'm able to help people. And so that's very meaningful for me because I never want to be that 02:49:00person, but I'll help that person. So, yeah, it's really, really cool.

ROWELL: All right. It will pause for time and then we'll resume.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: So, this ends segment three of the interview with Tarra Gundrum on October 11th, 2022. This begins segment four of the interview with Tarra Gundrum on October 11th, 2022. So, let's talk a bit about the book that you published recently. Do you want to discuss that?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, sure. So, I published a book called "Finding My Impossible", and what it ended up being was just kind of like reflection of my life, which is the story of how I became the person that I am today and I guess, for me, it was explaining the fact that no one person really excels in life by themselves 100%. Is through the help of community and mentors and teachers and coaches that one 02:50:00can excel. Is other people finding some sort of positive energy or strength in you and having the confidence in you and being willing to mentor you that will help you excel and be the person that you are today. So, I felt it necessary to share my story, not just to talk about myself, but to show that in every single aspect of my life I was impacted by someone else in that in some small part, I believe everyone can touch another person. So that's me finding my possible through the generosity of other people in hopes that other people would find inspiration in that message and do the same for someone else.

ROWELL: And related to that, you also have a podcast--

GUNDRUM: Yes.

ROWELL: Called The Possible Project.

GUNDRUM: Yes, The Possible Project podcast is a direct spinoff of the book, and 02:51:00that really came off of the fact that I've met so many interesting people in my lifetime that their stories should be told, and people should hear those things because they're, in most cases, a simple story that someone else can feed off of or draw inspiration from. Or maybe they're living that very same lifestyle and they think that they have no other options or that they're a failure maybe. Or their life was just horrible and it's like, no, you're just in the suck like everybody else. And here are a couple of cool things or ways that this person did this, or this person did that that made their lives a bit more manageable and they're okay. So, I love telling the stories of everyday people doing extraordinary things.

ROWELL: Same. [laughs] So, do you feel that there's a tie between your service 02:52:00and the projects that you're working on today?

GUNDRUM: I do believe so. I think that my service gave me access to a variety of different people. It gave me access to different parts of the country, in different parts of the world. And I think that without that experience, I'd be a different person. But I think my view has broadened my ability to process different people, different experiences and different challenges has definitely grown and it allows me to apply those learnings in my life. So, absolutely.

ROWELL: And then in the Fragout podcast, you mentioned the significance of 02:53:00parenting as Marines, you and your spouse. Can you talk a bit more about that?

GUNDRUM: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So, my husband and I both being Marines, we have a very common strictness, if you will. If that's a word. We hold each other accountable. We hold our children accountable. Teaching in our home is usually by a little bit of trial and error and a little bit of surprise element. So, yeah, my kids, they've had a really wonderful time of if they don't complete their chores, not in a very militant kill hat way, but they're corrected and they're held accountable. And it's a training joke of my husband and I both 02:54:00being martial artists, and both having completed the black belt instructor training course. We teach our kids these elements like surprise attacks from behind or front chokeholds or whatever. And I just remember my daughter in the hallway, dusting a mirror or something, and went up behind her and just put her in a chokehold. And she did exactly what she was supposed to do. I mean, she grabbed that choke, and she elbowed me and came around the backside, slammed me up against the wall. It was so beautiful. And most people are like, "I can't believe you let your daughter do that to you." She was freaking awesome! Like, so we create real life scenarios for our kids. I mean, because you could talk about stuff until you're blue in the face, but until you're getting choked or slammed up against a wall or somebody is on top of you, or in a bear hug, you 02:55:00don't know what to do. So, we try to teach our kids real life scenario. I mean, we take them shooting if they want. Sometimes it's just hard. My one daughter will only do target shooting, my other daughter, she'll hunt. But it's trying to create as much real-life environment as we possibly can, not to completely scare them, but to make sure that they're not naive to the fact that these types of things go on. So yeah, that was a very interesting thing that I shared with Ryan. It was fun.

ROWELL: And do you want to talk a bit more about why you think that's important for your daughters?

GUNDRUM: Well, I think it's extremely important for them to, well, like I said, just not be naive and recognize that people are genuinely kind. And I want them to have that faith in humanity. But I also want them to be aware of their surroundings and know that while people are genuinely kind, not everyone is out 02:56:00for your best interest and it's up to you to recognize the situations that are taking place around you and also the situations that you put yourself in. For example, the whole kind of saying "nothing good happens after midnight." Yeah, don't go to a club by yourself after midnight or 11:00 for that matter. Being on the road at two in the morning, a bar close is definitely more dangerous than getting out of there sooner. Never letting someone mix the drink for you. If you're going to drink, be responsible. You be the one to order that from the bartender and if you leave, it's gone. Don't drink it if you go to the bathroom and no one's watching it. All of those things are things that we try to teach our daughters for their knowledge and safety. Not as scare tactics, but real-life scenario stuff.

ROWELL: Preparedness, yeah. Do you want to talk a bit about some of the other ways that maybe you and your spouse's experiences in the Corps shaped your dynamic together?

GUNDRUM: Yeah, I think perseverance is the best word that I can put on the dynamic that we have. We've gone through a lot of similar hardships that we know each other kind of inside and out, and we know when we need space. We know when one is down or might need a pick me up or a friend or just a little slack sometimes because we are very high paced, and we have high expectations. And so, recognizing those things we learned in the Corps and applying that to our lifestyle today has been extremely beneficial.

ROWELL: So, you do some work in the community with organizations I think like Black Girls Do Bike perhaps and other organizations. Can you talk a little bit about that and what's important to you about that?

GUNDRUM: Yes, so community service is extremely important. And I think it all 02:58:00stems back to the fact of kind of what I explained earlier. It takes a village to raise a child and it's the people around you that helps you thrive that you go to for support and mentorship. So, I'm involved in several organizations. I belong to the Marine Corps League, Kettle Moraine Detachment. I am the judge advocate on the leadership team there. I am also the co-president of the West Bend New Rotary Club, so I help manage that. I am on something-- I'm the board of directors for The Volunteer Center of Washington County. So, that's pretty impactful because you get to help other people achieve their dreams and give back. I'm a "shero" for the Black Girls Do Bike, Washington County chapter which is a chapter that I have just stood up and started and hoping with the motto of 02:59:00"if you build it, they'll come", I'll get more members that are excited to be involved with the outdoors and cycling. And lastly, I am a member of my host team at church. So, I really felt welcomed when I joined that church years ago. When I walked in the door, someone greeted me with a smile. They helped me along every single way. If I had a question or needed a Bible or whatever the case was, and I hold that very same position today, that same person who made me feel welcome, I am hopefully that person for someone else.

ROWELL: And are you involved in-- what's your involvement in veterans' organizations? So, you've mentioned the Marine League.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: Do you want to say anything more about that?

GUNDRUM: No, I just think that it is important to serve those that serve us. And so, the Marine Corps has always been a model of leave no one behind and take 03:00:00care of your own. And I believe the lot of the veterans' service organizations are some of similar mindset. But of course, I naturally gravitate towards the Marine Corps League. And so, the ability to meet others who have the same passion and the same mission and drive as you had while serving, you still get to continue that because of the "once a Marine, always a Marine" motto.

ROWELL: All right. And then, reflecting on your service with the Marine Corps, how could you summarize what it means to you now as a person?

GUNDRUM: I think in summary, I'd say that my service in the Marine Corps has provided me just a vast amount of opportunities to engage with different leaders of different styles, opportunity to learn different skill sets. And ultimately, in the Marine Corps, you have a base duty and then you have what's called collateral duties. It teaches you how you can be versed in different areas. You 03:01:00don't have to be this one person and one thing and that's all you know. So, they tap into different skill sets, which for me is opportunity and then the ability to travel and do these things in different parts of the country, in different parts of the world. And I think that it's definitely made me a more whole individual and one with a bigger, broader reach than I ever could've had if I was without the Marine Corps.

ROWELL: All right. Thank you. And would you have anything to say to young women or young people who might be looking at joining the Marine Corps as an option themselves?

GUNDRUM: I would say whether it be the Marine Corps or any other service, evaluate the service for what it is and how you best see yourself within it. I 03:02:00wouldn't choose a particular branch because of a certain family member. "My dad was a Marine, so I'm going to be a Marine" kind of [inaudible]. Like I said, figure out what it is and what they do, how you see yourself in it, and don't be afraid of doing something different. As a female, you're likely going to be a minority no matter which branch you go in. There are going to be some challenges and anytime you put yourself in a situation where there's less of you and more men, you're going to have to probably fight just a little bit harder to prove yourself and earn a slot that might be limited and just go for it and know that you have the power to do it if you put your mind to it.

ROWELL: And is there anything else that we didn't cover today that you want to make sure we do cover? Maybe the bike trip that you did recently?

GUNDRUM: Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that'll be the last thing I cover. I think I would 03:03:00like to share the fact that I just cycled from Washington County, Wisconsin to Washington, D.C. It was over a thousand miles. I did a solo bike trip by myself, fully supported where I carried everything on my bike that I needed to carry to survive, eat and sleep, tents, all of those things. Everything that I needed to make bike repairs, changing flats and stuff like that. And it was a wonderful experience. I mean, I had the opportunity to engage with so many people in the community, where people genuinely wanted to help me succeed. My ultimate mission and goal was to raise funds for the Wisconsin 9/11 Memorial and Education Center is located in Kewaskum, Wisconsin. And I'm pleased to say that just over a 03:04:00thousand miles I raised, right now, I think it's about 1,200 bucks-- or $12,000. Is that right? [inaudible] $10,200.

ROWELL: Okay.

GUNDRUM: That's what it was.

ROWELL: There we go.

GUNDRUM: Yeah. And literally somebody handed me a check yesterday for 450 bucks. There's still a couple of smaller donations coming in, but it all adds up and is very significant. So, I did that so that people never forget the impact of 9/11. And I just hope to continue to raise awareness and give the younger generation access to the information so that they can be aware and of the lives that were lost are never forgotten.

ROWELL: All right, thank you.

GUNDRUM: Yeah.

ROWELL: I think that that covers it.

GUNDRUM: Woo! That was a lot.

ROWELL: It was. Thank you so much for your time, Tarra.

GUNDRUM: Yeah, absolutely.

ROWELL: This concludes the interview with Tarra Gundrum on October 11th, 2022.