Oral History Interview with Dawn L. Bowers-Winters

[Interview Begins]

ROWELL: Today is October 25th, 2022. This is an interview with Dawn Bowers-Winters, who served in the United States Army from 1979 to 1980 and 1981 to 1984. This interview is being conducted by Kate Rowell in Hartford, Wisconsin. The interview is being recorded for the I'm Not Invisible Project and the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. So, Dawn, let's start with where you grew up.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, on the north side.

ROWELL: Okay. And what was that like for you?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Oh, quite interesting. We moved around a lot. I went to a different elementary school every year that I was in school. Maybe two per year. Went to several junior high schools and went to two high schools. I went to Bay View and I went to Washington High School, and I actually graduated from Washington.

ROWELL: Okay, thank you. And what did your folks do?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, my mother did secretarial work. My dad, who knows. But he was a tailor, and he was just used to, I guess, what you call hustle. Just doing his thing. He refused to work for anyone. He ran a cleaners, he ran a restaurant. Just different businesses that he helped his uncle with as well. Ran an apartment building. Those types of things.

ROWELL: And did you grow up with siblings?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Oh, I have to say, he also got his license for real estate. He later started selling homes. What was the question again?

ROWELL: Did you grow up with siblings?

BOWERS-WINTERS: A little brother. Which he prefers that I call him my younger brother. I'm six years older than him. [Laughs]

ROWELL: And would you like to talk about, um, growing up in your community with a Muslim parent?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, he didn't live in the home with us. Um, and I was about ten or eleven when he became a Muslim and he became one while he was in prison. He was in prison from the time I was, um, maybe about five, six years old until ten. He was in there when my brother was actually born in June of '67. So.

ROWELL: And, um, what would you like to tell me about your school experience? Um, apart from moving or related to moving?

BOWERS-WINTERS: It was a little difficult going from school to school each year. You meet people and then you have to leave them and meet new people. But school 00:03:00was difficult for me because of the color of my skin. I was very, very, very bright, a lot brighter than I am now. And you get teased a lot when you're very bright as a person of color, and then you're not liked very well by a lot of different people as well at the same time. I wasn't into boys or anything, and the girls would still kind of be jealous. I was a tomboy, so I would hang out with them even in elementary school. But I wasn't interested in that boyfriend girlfriend stuff, so I had a lot of fights. I was also called teacher's pet because I was a very bright person and just wanted to do what was right in school because we moved around a lot and that's pretty much all I had. My mom 00:04:00liked to party. She drank a lot. And, you know, my home life was very different. At eight years old, I was babysitting my two-year-old brother as well as a newborn baby. So, I was a very responsible child and was trusted, you know, with children's lives. [Laughs] You know, but I didn't feel like I quite fit in anywhere.

ROWELL: And so, can you tell me a bit about your impression of the military when you were growing up, if any?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Really never thought about it. Never gave the military a second thought growing up.

ROWELL: And then, so, how did delayed entry arise as an option for you?

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, my neighbor, who went to the same high school as I did, told me she was having a recruiter to come over because that was her interest and she had invited me over. I said, okay. And I went and I liked what he had to say, 00:05:00but I wasn't old enough to take the test yet. I had to wait until my birthday that summer in order to take the test.

ROWELL: And how did that test go for you?

BOWERS-WINTERS: It went very well. It went very well. I passed it and they offered me delayed entry and I took it and I was excited. My friend, however, didn't pass it the first time around. So, you know, she eventually made it in. And so, I was really happy to hear that later. Um. And the reason I was excited about it was because I didn't really know what I was going to do with my life. I didn't have any mentors. I didn't have anyone to direct me one way or the other. And my dad, as I was growing up, would talk to me a lot and ask me what I was 00:06:00interested in doing and tried to be supportive of me in that way. But I didn't see him that often. He wasn't around. He decided to go to St. Louis and be around his dad. And um, then he had only gotten to meet when he was seventeen years old. So, um, you know, I didn't really have people around me to encourage me. And my mom's mother would say she would pay for me to go to modeling school or take piano lessons or do this or do that. But she never did it. So, I just didn't know what I was going to do with my life anyways. College, possibly, but I had no clue what that entailed. I could've graduated a year before, but when I told my mother, she was like, "Well, you better be able to pay me such and such amount of money every week." And I'm like, uh, how am I going to do that? 00:07:00Because I wasn't really taught anything. Life lessons. How to survive. Particularly get a job and do all those things. So, when I was invited in the opportunity to join the Army, that sounded really good to me. And it would get me out of Milwaukee. I was just so excited to get out of Milwaukee and had I known that I could have gone as soon as I graduated, I graduated a year before, I still could have gone in, but I didn't know. I would have done that. The only thing that I was sad about was leaving my brother behind.

ROWELL: And, um, what age were you when you enlisted?

BOWERS-WINTERS: When I signed the papers, I was seventeen.

ROWELL: And why did you select the Army specifically?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Because that's the recruiter that was there. [Laughs]

ROWELL: You didn't consider others?

BOWERS-WINTERS: No.

ROWELL: You thought this was the ticket.

BOWERS-WINTERS: And there had been another one-- now, except for the Navy or Marines. I wouldn't have done those because I can't swim. I didn't want anybody trying to make me learn how to swim.

ROWELL: Okay. [Bowers-Winters laughs] So, it was the Army, or the Air Force and Army was the intuitive choice.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Right.

ROWELL: Okay. Um, and, um, was there a specific, um, military occupational specialty that you wanted to pursue?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. Computer repair is what I had my heart set on when I went. Somehow, the person that I sat down with, being seventeen still and not knowing any better, talked me into radar repair. And I'm very upset about that today. [Laughs]

ROWELL: I'll definitely talk about-- with you about that later, yeah. Um, and so 00:09:00when you enlisted, how did your family react? Your mom, your brother, your dad, you know, your extended family?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I don't recall. My mother had to sign the papers in order for me to go, and she gladly did that. Not really sure how my brother felt about it or anyone else in the family.

ROWELL: What was your full name when you enlisted?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Dawn Lenee Bowers.

ROWELL: Okay. Um, and can you tell me about the day that you were inducted? What you remember about that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: The only thing I remember is I felt alone, even though I was in a room full of people. You know, there were several others there that were being inducted at the same time, but not having a loved one with me at the time felt 00:10:00really weird and just felt alone. But I was also excited.

ROWELL: And do you remember what, if not the date, what month and year that was?

BOWERS-WINTERS: June of 1979. Two weeks after I graduated high school.

ROWELL: Two weeks. Um, and so where did you go for basic training?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Fort McClellan, Alabama.

ROWELL: Okay. Uh, what do you remember about the day that you arrived at Fort McClellan?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Oh, it was awesome because, first of all, I got to take the train there from Milwaukee, from Milwaukee to Birmingham. And then a bus took us from Birmingham to Fort McClellan. But the train ride was amazing. Picked up a bunch of guys in Chicago. And like I said, I was a tomboy and I was used to hanging out with guys all the time. Those were my friends. I didn't care for 00:11:00females because I always ended up with fights and backbiting and just a bunch of garbage I didn't want to deal with. So, I enjoyed my time with the guys. And so, on the train ride, and we had our own little rooms in the back. I had my own bunk private and the guys all had rooms back there and it was a fun trip there. So, when we got to Fort McClellan, it was just like, I was just on cloud nine. It was just a great, great trip.

ROWELL: Um, and so what was it like for you to transition into a military environment?

BOWERS-WINTERS: It was different. I barely knew how to do pushups, sit ups, any of those physical things. I didn't take gym the last two years of my schooling. [Laughs] I chose to opt out of that. Um, and so, it was quite interesting to see myself develop. I was five [foot] seven and a half [inches], and I was about 00:12:00115-16 pounds and just-- I just was excited about growing and learning and this new world of mine. It felt like I was about to-- I was joining a family.

ROWELL: Yeah. Can you say more a bit about those expectations you had, about what it would be like? Um, the family aspect and anything else?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes, I-- Going in, I thought that it would be an atmosphere of everyone having one another's back. No one would steal from you. No one would want to fight you. No one would want to harm you in any way but that you would be protected and loved and cared for. You know, um, you know, on TV, you see basic training as you're being yelled at. So, I was kind of expecting the drill 00:13:00sergeants to kind of [laughs] be mean, for lack of a better word, but not my peers. I didn't expect that from my peers. Somehow in my mind, I just didn't connect they're-- they're coming from the outside world in and they're still who they are. Whoever they were out there, they're that in the military as well. And so, but at seventeen going on eighteen, I turned eighteen in basic, while at basic, but my expectations was that it would be a family atmosphere of loyalty to be there and that I wouldn't need to worry about the same things that were going on as I grew up in Milwaukee.

ROWELL: And so, to continue that, what did you find was more close to the 00:14:00reality that you experienced with your-- with your peers in your training group?

BOWERS-WINTERS: That they could be trusted just like people on the outside. That they will steal from you. I mean, my grandmother had given me a watch and in basic, someone stole that from me. I walked away from it sitting on my bed and it was gone when I came back, you know. And so, to think that they would-- someone would do that, it's just-- it just made me feel. While there, also a group of women from another platoon came over, or-- came over to confront me because we had an exercise the day before and I was paired with this good-looking guy. And we got along really well because, of course, I get along well with guys. [Laughs] And so, I guess it was I observed as we were getting 00:15:00along a little bit too well, but so, they approached me the next day and told me that I was stealing somebody's boyfriend. And I was just so outdone. I'm like, what? You've got to be kidding me. I didn't choose him. He didn't choose me. We were paired up for this exercise, and it was a shooting exercise where we had to be on the ground and, you know, up and down, all kinds of stuff, you know? And we did that. And then we went about our business. So, how did you put those two things together? I don't know. But so, in basic, you know, I encountered those things. But basic, I think, was really one of the best parts of my time in the military because I grew a lot. I learned a lot and it meant a lot to me. So, 00:16:00outside of the silliness of the women and them stealing from me and then confronting me and wanting to fight me over a guy, you know, basic was a good time. Moving on to AIT? So, I'd like to say that I was a PV2 when I went in because of the delayed entry program. I left basic still a PV2 which I didn't understand. And then, so, I'm at AIT. I'm in radar repair, which takes six months. I'm the only female in my class of about 100 men. And that radar class included all the different branches. It wasn't just Army. and then the rest of 00:17:00the people that were in the same company, in the unit where I was, the building I was staying in, they were learning how to operate the radars, which only took six weeks. So, people were constantly coming and going, coming and going. And class wise, everything was great. I was, uh, a leader for--

ROWELL: A squad leader?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Squad leader, yes. Squad leader. And, um, and so, I was given a leadership position and I think mostly because I was going to be there for six months. [Laughs] But then, and all that went very, very well. And the men there, though, wanted to own me. Wanted to boss me around. So, I was experiencing 00:18:00something slightly different when they're-- they were getting upset because I wasn't conforming to what they wanted, like they were going to own me, claim me, and I was going to be theirs. And when I said no, that didn't sit well with them. So, I was slapped a few times by a few different men, even scratched. [Laughs] Even scratched by one. And I'm like, what is this? What is this? And one guy wasn't even in my unit. He was from somewhere else I had met being out at the 123 Club. They came and wanted me to go somewhere with them and I said no. I was standing on the stairs and there were other people, including my future husband, in that area. And I said I didn't want to go. And they were 00:19:00like, trying to force me to go. And I was like, no, I'm not. So, they slapped me and ran out the door and I went running after them. But they jumped in the car and the car sped off. But nobody in that room helped me, though. I guess everything happened so fast, but I was the only one running after them. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Where they service members, also?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Some. Not all, but some. And so, some things like that. So, um, that just wasn't a very pleasant thing for me. Now, I had great times and a lot of men were very, very, you know, respectful. Very respectful as well. So, I had great relationships as well as just those, you know, few, more than a handful of 00:20:00people that felt like they should own me or I should be theirs. And that they could make it happen. That-- it just was amazing to me. And so, I had a good relationship and good friendships there. And unfortunately, those that I really thought were my friends turned out to not be such great friends because two of the ones that I was close to made a bet and so, it was the weekend and it was quiet around there. And I'm a loner. I pretty much have always kind of kept to myself, but I'm not antisocial. So, um, but so I said, I didn't know what I was going to be doing. I love to dance, you know? So, I didn't know if I was going 00:21:00to go out, go dancing or not. So, I went down the stairs and I passed one of the guys that I knew, and he said, "If you meet up with this person and they ask you to go somewhere with them, don't go." Now, they had never, ever said that to me before. They didn't give me an explanation. And I'm thinking, who are you to tell me not to go do something with someone that I hang out with? You know, on occasion, you know. So, when it came to it, they asked me and I say yes. So, I went and we grab something to eat and then, you know, they asked, you know, "want to go--" They were getting ready to leave. They had orders to go somewhere else. So, they were getting ready to leave. And it's like, "You want to go hang out at the hotel?" Da da da da da da da. "This is my last," you know, "I'm going 00:22:00to be leaving, I just want to spend some time with you." So, I was like, "Okay, but I'm not interested in having sex." Because that-- I didn't live that kind of lifestyle. I hadn't gotten there yet. So, I made it clear because and that's just my personality, I try to make things clear to people. I don't want any unnecessary expectations. So, um, so, I made myself clear and they agreed, you know, and so that was that. So, ended up going, we ate, we watched a little television or whatever. And then, um, you know, it's the night-- because I'm super picky, I wasn't planning this, so I washed out my underwear and hung up my clothes and wrapped the towel around me and all that. And, you know, went to sleep. When I woke-- and I woke up to this man on top of me, inside of me. And 00:23:00I'm a really sound sleeper. I sleep really hard. [Laughs] It lightened up a little bit over the years, but at that time, I was still pretty-- a pretty hard sleeper. And the-- and so, I told him to get off of me immediately. I was like, "Get off of me." And they were like, "Wait, wait, wait." I'm like, "No. Get off of me." And I don't even remember what happened after that. The next-- the next thing that I really remember is being back at the barracks and acting as though nothing ever happened. So, then, I don't even know if at what point this happened. I don't remember. I remember the other person that told me not to go. 00:24:00I was coming downstairs because the females were on the third floor and the guys were on the second floor. So, by the time I got down the stairs and to that platform, he came charging out that door and he attacked me. He grabbed me by the throat. He threw me on the ground next to the stairs in the wall and started screaming at me and shaking me and just screaming, "I told you not to go. I told you not to go. I told you not to go." Da da da. And he just-- he was so hysterical and just-- just-- just choking me and shaking me and next to the stairs on the ground on that platform. And I'm like, I just didn't know what in 00:25:00the world was going on. And I don't remember anything after, you know, after the attack. I don't even know when he got up. I don't-- I was-- I don't remember what I did afterwards. I was in a daze. I just-- I just don't remember what happened after that. I do know that later down the line, I was told-- he told me, the one who choked me, told me they made a bet. But this time, that person, the other person, was gone. But they had made a bet. And that's why all that transpired is because they made a bet on me. So, that wasn't a good feeling. It 00:26:00wasn't very pleasant. I was terrified that I was pregnant. Um, because I was always had my period four weeks. That 28th day, it was there, from the minute I first started having them. And so, it didn't come and I was terrified. But it did eventually come. So, I was grateful for that. But I guess my body had never experienced that before, so it just kind of didn't know what to do with it, I guess. I don't know. But in that, I told one of the ladies I knew from basic training, she had called me. Then I told her what happened and I told her how afraid I was of being pregnant and stuff. And I don't remember what she said, but I do know she never called me again. We never were in contact. When I tried to reach out to her, we were never in contact again after that. Yeah. So, I 00:27:00never-- I didn't talk about it. I didn't talk about it. So, that was the worst, worst thing. I mean, just the disrespect and the abuse that I had to endure from the men was unbelievable to me.

ROWELL: To your knowledge, do you know if any of the NCOs saw this treatment that you were enduring on a daily basis from some of the other service members in radar repair?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I had no idea.

ROWELL: No one ever approached you about it?

BOWERS-WINTERS: No. And I'm-- I guess I'm not a nosy person and I keep to myself, so I wouldn't know a whole lot of things that may have occurred.

ROWELL: And you felt unable to report at the time?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yeah, at the time, I guess I just dusted myself off and endured it and kept moving. I didn't hate those men. I didn't-- I just didn't feel anything. I just didn't feel anything at all. And I'm also a protector. So, I really feel like I didn't want to get anybody in trouble, even though they hurt me. I still didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

ROWELL: Thank you for sharing that. Um, if you feel comfortable answering, are there any other ways that you recall in which you coped with that experience?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Over the years, maybe. Because I don't even-- I don't even 00:29:00really know how it affected me. I do know that I ended up getting married very young. I wanted a child because I had children around me all the time. So, the person that I ended up dating, which that's a whole thing in itself as well, at AIT, but we ended up together and I thought we were happy and everyone thought we made a great couple. He was a civilian and when I first got there, there was this cook there that said, "I have a friend I want you to meet," as I was going through the line. They just met me themselves going through the line. [Laughs] And he's-- and so, I said to-- my husband-to-be, he was off work that day. So, I 00:30:00met a couple of days later or whatever. We met and eventually we became friends. But there was somebody else there that had their eye on him and that became my issue. And so, but eventually, we ended up together and got married.

ROWELL: Can you-- and so this was at Fort Sill in Oklahoma, is that correct?

BOWERS-WINTERS: In Oklahoma, yes.

ROWELL: Okay. And so, how, uh, how did your kind of peers receive, um, how did they kind of perceive this, uh, relationship that you ended up forming with a civilian? You know, who was working at the, uh, working at the fort. Was there any kind of commentary at all or--?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Oh, yeah. The guys were jealous. They would make comments all the time, but they didn't mess with him, and they didn't mess with me. [Laughs] 00:31:00You know, so, they, uh, they would, they would make different comments about it because he was a very handsome man. Tall, light skin, lots of hair. You know, and so, so, yes, they would people make comments, but it was-- I felt a good match, you know, a good person. But to be honest, I still didn't feel-- I enjoyed his company and being with him. And after that I thought, but I realized, I still wasn't feeling. I wasn't feeling. I was still numb. But he was good to me. And he wasn't bad on the eyes, so. [Laughs] You know, and he made me laugh. And, you know, he just did so many beautiful things, like giant cards to tell me he loved me and, you know, take me out to eat and, you know, just spend 00:32:00time with me and shine my boots for me, iron my uniform from-- I mean, he would do a lot of things to help me and being kind to me. Um, and so, he won my heart. And even though it was still kind of numb, it is-- so, it's kind of hard to explain it, but that's where I was at. And, um, today I feel like he was somewhat of a savior for me to get me away from all the abuse and things that I was enduring from the men in the military and just kind of took me, put me in this place of protection. And I was grateful for that, but I knew that I, you know, that I would be there for the long haul and that we would make it work and have a great family based on that. But that went out the window, too, so. [Laughs]

ROWELL: We'll come to that later, I think. Yeah.

BOWERS-WINTERS: But yeah, I think the reason why I opted to marry at eighteen and start a family with him is to get away from all the abuse that I was enduring.

ROWELL: And did, um, were you treated differently by, um, your male colleagues, uh, after you were married?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes.

ROWELL: How did that change?

BOWERS-WINTERS: They, you know, the ones that-- for one, no one tried to make me theirs. Nobody tried to force me, you know, but on the other hand, though, by the time I got married, I had graduated. I was graduating and leaving and going on to another place.

ROWELL: Can you actually, um, and you also mentioned a place called the 123 Club. Um, can you explain a little bit about before you move on to graduation?

BOWERS-WINTERS: The 123 Club was just the noncommissioned officers club.

ROWELL: And you got to hang out there and spend time there?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Uh-huh.

ROWELL: What was that like?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Um, it was fun. It was fun. It was a lot of fun. I loved it because I could dance. I didn't-- I wasn't a drinker, but occasionally I would have something to drink as long as I couldn't taste the alcohol. [Laughs] But I wasn't much of a drinker or anything. Growing up with an alcoholic mom and all and dad liked to drink his beers. [Laughs] I, you know, I, you know, kind of stayed away from that. So, I just liked to be on the dance floor. And most times, I would go out. I would go and sit by the DJ because I felt more 00:35:00protected there because I wouldn't be alone the majority of the time when I went to go dance. So, I would kind of stick by somebody that I befriended or something. And if I went with like, my roommates or something, then that was good, but they, you know, had guys and whatever. So.

ROWELL: Were there any, um, were there any people who-- other people who helped to kind of support you emotionally or who were just there as friends during this period of time?

BOWERS-WINTERS: There wasn't anyone that I would talk to about personal things. No one at all. No one.

ROWELL: Was that, um, a result of, uh, you feeling kind of socially ostracized sometimes with some of the women? Or was that as a result of your feeling of numbness or following your assault, would you say?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I learned that I couldn't trust them any more than I could 00:36:00anybody else. I just learned-- Well, females I didn't trust anyways, but I would have conversation, so to speak, or whatever, you know, but about things in general. But deep down, personal things, I really didn't have anyone to share those things with.

ROWELL: Did you get married before you graduated AIT? Or after?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I don't remember. They were both so close together. Intertwined. And it might have been right before because my husband wanted me to stay at Fort Sill. He didn't want me to go to Fort Ord.

ROWELL: Was he from Oklahoma?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Oklahoma, [inaudible]. Oklahoma. So, we were trying to fix it where I could stay there, but it didn't quite work out that way. The-- I think 00:37:00the trainers at the time in the school that I was in was going to find a way to get me hired on there in the school. And, um, but I don't really remember what occurred. I don't know if that just wasn't enough time, what happened. But.

ROWELL: What was your relationship like with your instructors at AIT? Because you spent a lot of time there and you were the only female student. So, what was that like for you?

BOWERS-WINTERS: It was great. It was great. They were very respectful.

ROWELL: And supportive of your relationship?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Supportive. Support-- You know, they-- it didn't really matter that much, but my husband was a very lovable guy. Everybody just kind of was drawn to him. And, um, so, he talked to them. I don't know, but it wasn't in my 00:38:00presence. So, I don't really know the details of that, but.

ROWELL: How did you feel about that? That they talked to him?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I was okay with it. He was the one that was really gung-ho about me staying at Fort Sill. So, [laughs] I really didn't mind. I didn't mind at all, you know, but I had a good relationship with the instructors as well as my fellow classmates. Never had any problems whatsoever.

ROWELL: And, um, what do you remember of, uh, kind of the course? It's okay if [inaudible] the specifics, but what do you remember about your training for the radar repair?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Not a lot. [Laughs] I just remember that there were service members from all different branches there. They were all men, Black, White, and other, you know, and we all got along very well. And we helped one another where 00:39:00we needed the help. And that was it. I mean, I know that I loved it. I loved it. I loved working with my hands and reading the schematics and figuring out where the problem was. I loved it.

ROWELL: So, um, uh, when you eventually got married, did you happen to wear your uniform? Do you remember?

BOWERS-WINTERS: No, I didn't. I wore my prom dress because I chose not to go to the prom. But I had my clothes, I had my shoes, my dress, my everything. But I just chose not to go. And so, that's what I wore for my wedding.

ROWELL: And that was in, I think you said April, maybe?

BOWERS-WINTERS: April of 1980.

ROWELL: Okay. 1980. And that's-- 1980 is also when you graduated from AIT for radar repair, right?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I am not sure.

ROWELL: Or around there. [Laughs] Okay.

BOWERS-WINTERS: But it was around that time. It's-- I don't even remember the 00:40:00graduation. I don't remember. Did we have one? [Laughs]

ROWELL: Not sure. There was a lot going on at the time.

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, yeah, I don't even-- I don't even remember. I think that you get out the program. We don't-- we don't all graduate at the same time, I don't think. I think it's like as you go through because some go through sooner than others because they already had that electronic background.

ROWELL: Mm-hm. Okay.

BOWERS-WINTERS: I had none.

ROWELL: And you finished AIT as a PV2 still.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Still. Yes.

ROWELL: Okay. And what was the-- what rank had others who were in the same position as you, uh, especially the men. What rank had they achieved at that point?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, the only one that really sticks out because I really, like I said, I keep myself and mind my own business. I don't-- I wasn't really paying any attention, but what's very clear in my mind is my friend Guy, who was in the 00:41:00same, um, class as I was, when he left AIT, he had specialist. That stands out because we both started with the delayed entry program, went through basic and met there in that class.

ROWELL: Wow. So, you had a very similar path. All similar except for your gender. Right?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um. That is interesting. Yeah. Um, and do you remember feeling-- feeling a way about that at the time, or is it more of reflecting on it now?

BOWERS-WINTERS: More reflecting on it in the last few years. But at that time when I noticed that, I went and talked to-- I don't remember people's titles now, but I went to talk to the person that was over us that unit. And he said, "Oh, they'll take care of it when you get to California. When you get to your next station."

ROWELL: And that was Fort Ord, right?

BOWERS-WINTERS: That was Fort Ord, yeah.

ROWELL: And did they, in fact?

BOWERS-WINTERS: No. But I didn't stay there very long. Once I got there, um, I just didn't like the atmosphere. Um, playing games, it's like, I was pregnant at this time, and they put me on a stool to look at some microfiche. They wanted their library updated. So, I said, "Okay, do you want the books and the supplements ordered?" And they said, "No, just the books." So, I sat on a stool as a pregnant woman looking at microfiche day after day after day. Hours and hours and hours till I had that library updated. And then they said, "Okay, now you can do the supplements." Not a game I'm going to play. So, the next time, 00:43:00the next day after formation, I politely went back to my barracks and laid down in my bed. [Laughs] And then he called me and he was nice at first. And then when I-- when he asked me why I wasn't at the motor pool, and I said, "Because I don't want to be." And he just starts screaming and yelling and [laughs] all kinds of stuff. So, and so, he says, "Okay, you have fifteen minutes to get back here." And da da da da da. So, I looked at my watch, laid down for fifteen minutes. Then I got up and slowly walked to the motor pool and he wrote me up and I didn't care. But I'm like, you're not-- I'm a pregnant woman sitting on a stool looking at microfiche. You're not going to play this game with me. Do what 00:44:00you must, but I'm not playing the game. And so, he wrote me up. I signed it. And then he had me sit at a desk to type on this manual typewriter. I learned on the electric. So, I'm trying to figure out [laughs].

ROWELL: In 1982. No electric. Manual, huh?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I learned on an electric at my school. But anyways, I just decided, you know what? This-- you just need to find something else to do. Need to go find something else to do, so. I decided to get out on the "you're pregnant" thing, whatever that's called.

ROWELL: So, when you-- just a couple kind of smaller scale questions about this experience here. Um, so you were put on desk work or clerical work as a result of your pregnancy?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes.

ROWELL: Um, did you-- so you reported when you-- when you found out that you and 00:45:00your-- you and your spouse were pregnant and that you, uh. And so how did that go for you?

BOWERS-WINTERS: It went well.

ROWELL: Did you have a different uniform or was it the same?

BOWERS-WINTERS: They didn't have maternity uniforms then, so I wore civilian clothing.

ROWELL: Oh, okay. How did that feel for you being--

BOWERS-WINTERS: Great. [Laughs]

ROWELL: --You know, at the fort and in your civilian clothes?

BOWERS-WINTERS: It felt good. It felt really good.

ROWELL: Did it-- do you know why they-- they moved you from radar repair to desk work during your pregnancy? What was the-- why was that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I believe because you can't have a pregnant woman climbing up and doing all these different things with the radar.

ROWELL: Okay.

BOWERS-WINTERS: And being out in the field and when I first got there, my unit was out in the field.

ROWELL: Can you tell me a bit about that? What was that like?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I have no idea.

ROWELL: Oh, you didn't get to go. Oh, okay. [Bowers-Winters laughs] I thought-- that was already at a point in which you didn't get [inaudible]. So, were you-- 00:46:00I'm sure you were-- were you disappointed? Feeling disappointed you couldn't apply the skills that you learned at AIT that you seemed to enjoy?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. Yes. I was disappointed about that. But I was also looking forward to it once the pregnancy was over and all that. But at the time I had endured so much and then got married. And then I was away from my husband and I'm pregnant and just so much stuff going on. I just felt like I needed a time out. I needed to just take some time. And but the guys there at Fort Ord took very good care of me, made sure I had everything I needed. One guy took me to the ocean, hang out in Monterrey to the merry-go-round indoors and just spent time with me because I was by myself. And I didn't know anybody. They just-- they were very respectful. They knew I was married. They knew I was pregnant, of 00:47:00course. You know, so, they just took good care of me, you know? And I appreciate that so much. So, very different experience than being at AIT, being at Fort Ord. Those guys were amazing. Very, very, very nice. So, and kudos to them. Don't remember their names. But, you know, I have a few pictures of them there, but very, very, very nice people. Took very good care of me until I left.

ROWELL: Would you like to look at those pictures maybe with the camera after-- after the main interview is done?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes.

ROWELL: Okay. We'll do that. Yeah. Um, so, uh, in terms of, um, your discharge, how was that handled? How-- was it a medical discharge to your memory? Do you recall how they handled it?

BOWERS-WINTERS: There was a-- there's a specific title for when you're pregnant 00:48:00and you get out, and I don't remember what that is, but I had no problems doing it at all.

ROWELL: Were they expecting you to leave the-- leave the Army and then come back? [Bowers-Winters shakes head] Um, or did they expect you to stay through your pregnancy?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Um, no. Once you make the decision, you could stay in when you're pregnant, or that you can get out under whatever it was. And it's both honorable. It's honorable, you know, and so, and you don't-- you're not expected to come back unless you want to. You're able to come back, but you're not expected to come back.

ROWELL: Okay. Um--

BOWERS-WINTERS: It's not like a leave.

ROWELL: Mm-hm. Yeah. And you were away from your-- your husband at this time, right? Living separately. Um, and when you exited, did you intend to rejoin?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I had no idea. I didn't know what the future held for me. I just needed a timeout and, um-- Be with my husband, have my daughter and, um, spent 00:49:00some time with her. So, um, I was going to do the Reserves after being at home with her for a year. Um, but no one got back to me, and but my husband, he said, "Well, if you're gonna do Reserves, you might as well just go back in." So, it's like, well. Those are two very different things. But apparently, he wants me to go back and make the money. [Laughs]

ROWELL: So, you felt it was more pressure from your husband? [Noise] Oh, it's okay. You felt there's more pressure from your husband at the time?

BOWERS-WINTERS: At the time, not really pressure, because I did want to serve. I did want to do the Reserves. So, in-- the Army wasn't so bad. You know, it was 00:50:00just like I encountered a lot of things. But that changed once I got married. So, um, I didn't really mind. I liked being made to do exercise and, [laughs] you know, all those different things that keep you healthy and keep you smart. And so, it didn't really bother me much. I just didn't want to have to leave my family or anything, which was always a possibility. So, um, so I was okay with going back and, um, I hadn't gotten rid of enough baby fat yet, so they told me I had to lose a few pounds before I could sign the papers. So, I did.

ROWELL: And so you re-entered in 1981, is that right?

BOWERS-WINTERS: That is correct.

ROWELL: Okay. Um, and what was your new MOS at that time?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Chaplain's assistant.

ROWELL: Okay. And then, um, so it was faith a prominent part of your life at that time?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes.

ROWELL: Okay. How did you-- how did that new MOS come about for you?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, when I went back in, there was only specific things that they would allow me to go back in under. And that was the one that stuck out to me the most, because that was more service- oriented. I can be around people. I could help people and just stay connected with God and help others stay connected with God or whatever it was that they, um, worshipped at that time. However they worship. So, that was-- I didn't really know a whole lot about it, but I knew that I would learn a lot about the different religions. So, I was 00:52:00excited about that.

ROWELL: Yeah. On that topic, um, where did you go, um, for AIT a second time?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. That was a journey. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Yes? Well, let's talk about that. What was that like for you? What happened?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, getting there. Now, at this time, I'm like, twenty.

ROWELL: Twenty years old at that point, you said?

BOWERS-WINTERS: About twenty. And so, I fly there. I get there at night. I'm in New York. I have my little suitcase. I don't know where the bus station is or where I'm supposed to go. Anything. I am walking the streets of New York at night trying to find a bus station. I mean, in the middle of nowhere. And I mean, there were no people around. No cars. No-- I mean, it was like, almost deserted. [Laughs]

ROWELL: It's hard to find in New York.

BOWERS-WINTERS: And I find the bus station. It takes me to Fort Monmouth and I get to Fort Monmouth and it's pitch black. [Laughs] Nobody at the gate or anything. [Laughs]

ROWELL: No guards? Nothing?

BOWERS-WINTERS: There's a phone booth, so I go in there and I call. Call whoever whatever number is on the paperwork. And eventually they send-- I can't remember if they send somebody to get me or they tell me how to get to them. I don't know. But it was pitch black and just no people or anything. Again. So, it was very interesting how I ended up from point A to point B because-- but I, today, I just think about that and like, what was wrong with you? [Laughs]

ROWELL: I mean, you usually at most-- and at least you have a gate guard, right? 00:54:00That's important, right? [Bowers-Winters nods] Did you ever see that again? Did you ever see that there was not a guard on duty or anything like that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Never really paid any attention. Once I got there and got settled, it's like, it was life. [Laughs] It was life. But it was-- when I went was the holidays. It was in between Christmas and New Year's.

ROWELL: Oh, okay.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Was the end of December. So, it was just kind of deserted, I guess, because it was the holidays. And maybe nobody bothered me in New York because it was the holidays. [Laughs] But I couldn't-- I can't believe it. I can't believe I did that. Just, oh, wow. But yeah. It came to life and there were just a handful of us there during those times. And we went to New York and 00:55:00hung out together a couple of times and seen shows and went to the Statue of Liberty and did those things. So, it was a fun time.

ROWELL: And that was, um, your kind of peers that were also training to be chaplain's assistants?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes.

ROWELL: Do you remember about how many?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I don't know how many were in the class, but I know there were four of us that hung out together. Um, and there were maybe ten or less people, like, in the barracks and in there during the holiday time. So, people are trickling in, you know, third class to start at the beginning of the year.

ROWELL: What was the, um, the gender kind of proportions of your class like?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Probably more females, but there were lots of males.

ROWELL: But not the only one anymore.

BOWERS-WINTERS: No, not the only one.

ROWELL: Okay. Um. How was that for you? That-- 'cause that's quite a change from the-- all the places that you'd served. Your duty station, your AIT experience beforehand.

BOWERS-WINTERS: That experience was great. It was great. It was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful time. Um. Didn't have any problems with anybody at any given point. It just-- it wasn't as long of a class. I think maybe two months or something. I can't remember. But it wasn't really long. At the end towards graduation, we were about to graduate. My grandmother came down from Milwaukee to help my husband with my granddaughter. But she wasn't feeling well, so she needed to leave. So, I flew home to make sure she was taken care of and could get home and do what she needed to do. Come to find out she had cancer in her lungs, so. And so, she wasn't around a whole lot. [Inaudible] Well, anyways. Um, 00:57:00but I was really sad to hear that. But I'm glad she went home and took care of herself. And I was grateful for the time that she got to spend with my granddaughter and my husband. So and then I went back and then I was stationed at Fitzsimons Army Medical Center in Colorado from there. But a funny thing that happened while I was at AIT at Fort Monmouth is 'cause I don't use foul language or any of those things. I never have, not even as a child, not, you know, even though I grew up with it just in my ear continuously in my home and otherwise. I just-- that wasn't me. So, but, in that training, I was around it and hearing it a lot from people going to school, going to be trained for chaplain's assistant 00:58:00[laughs] and so I stepped out of someone's car and something happened and I said, "S-H-I-T." And I said. [Bowers-Winters covers mouth] [Laughs] I couldn't believe that came out of my mouth.

ROWELL: Big influence, I guess. Wow.

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, the other person, they say, "Wow, way to tell that to--" [Laughs] So, they went and told everybody. And I'm sure I turned every shade of red there was in the world because that's not how I talk. And I could not believe that that came out of my mouth. But it did.

ROWELL: You still remember. Yeah.

BOWERS-WINTERS: [Laughs] I'll never forget that. [Laughs]

ROWELL: So-- so, when you were doing that training [laughs] alongside your more colorful, you know, friends who use more colorful language, right? What did you learn? So, you said you weren't super familiar with a lot of other religious practices other than the one that you grew up with. Can you say more about that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, I wasn't raised in the church, so I didn't really grow up [inaudible]. My journey started when I joined the military.

ROWELL: Oh, okay.

BOWERS-WINTERS: I started going to the Protestant service on post. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Oh, what did that-- why did-- how did that begin?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I just-- purpose in my heart. Because I have been-- my grandmother sent me to church when I was like, five or so with my aunt who's four years older than me. Give us a quarter and send us down the road to the church. But then we moved out away from her. And so that was the end of my church days. And-- but ever since, I think eight years old, I remember praying. I would talk to God all the time. All the time, especially if I was in trouble or I needed help. Talk to him all the time. I would say my prayers. And from TV, I did the sign of the cross. Didn't know what it meant, but it was on TV. That's what they did before they prayed. And I did the same thing. So, that-- that was 01:00:00the limit or, uh, you know, where I was at that time. And my grandmother, I would always see her get on her knees and pray. But she didn't pray out loud. I didn't know what she was saying, but she prayed every night before she went to bed. So, that's all I had to hold on to. And I really, really, really wanted that relationship with God to grow. And my mom did take my brother and I in May, before I left in June, to be baptized in her friend's church. So, we went one Sunday. The next Sunday we were baptized and then we never went back. And then the next month I left for the military.

ROWELL: Oh, wow. Do you know what prompted that, then? Because you were-- you were almost an adult at that time. You were an older teen.

BOWERS-WINTERS: She just didn't want me to leave without being baptized. I don't-- I don't know. She believed in God and why it was so important that I be baptized before teaching me what it meant, basically. But I appreciate that. I 01:01:00appreciate her thoughtfulness and okay, I didn't raise you in church, but I do believe in God and I do believe you need to be baptized before you go and fight in this man's army. So, I am grateful for that. So-- but my journey began the minute I entered the military.

ROWELL: Thank you for sharing. Um, and so coming around to your, uh, you know, being a chaplain's assistant. Well, training to be a chaplain's assistant. Does anything from that training kind of still stick out in your mind?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Outside of the fact that I said a cuss word? [Laughs]

ROWELL: Yes. [Laughs] Anything from your courses or even what you learned from other people in your cohort?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I don't remember a whole lot, but I have my book [laughs] and I 01:02:00looked at it recently. It's actually in that room right now. Um. But learning how to set up for the, um, the Jewish service, Lutheran, Catholic, Protestant. Did I say Lutheran already? What else-- the Islamic Services. Um, so learning about those different cultures and how to set up and what they believe and all that was very, very, very, very good and important to me, you know, to know. I was looking through the book and I would take the exam and I would do very, very well. And the only questions that I would get wrong were concerning the Jews. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, one time I missed one question and 01:03:00another time I missed two questions. They were all dealing with the Jewish belief. So, it was is very important. Very good. So, I really liked that. I like, um. Once I got to AIT, I also learned how to repair anything in the church like screens. So, I went to class, fixed-- splice learning, learning how to splice films and put them back together to keep the movie going. And, you know, so, interesting things that I would not have learned otherwise. [Laughs] Church bulletins and fliers and all those things that you have to do as a chaplain's assistant. So, um, during my time, at first I went to Fitzsimons Army Medical Center, and then I swapped out with someone to go back to Fort Sill. I regret 01:04:00it, but at that time, I was still very young, and I just wanted my husband, you know, he grew up there. He knew everybody and you know, he had a good job and everything, so I made all the adjustments where possible. You know. And thinking back now, that was not the right thing to do. I should have took my husband away from that environment. Maybe we would still be together today. Who knows? But at any rate, went back to Fort Sill and I was placed at Grierson Hill Chapel, which is a Catholic church.

ROWELL: Yeah. And then how long were you at Fort Sill?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Two and a half years.

ROWELL: Do you recall how long you were at Fitzsimons in Colorado?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Just a couple months. Just a couple months.

ROWELL: Okay. Um. And, um, did that living separately from your family have any kind of impact for you in your daily life or anything like that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: My immediate-- my husband and my daughter?

ROWELL: Yeah, sorry. Yes. Your immediate family, I guess. Yeah. Your husband and your daughter.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yeah. I didn't like being away from them. I didn't like it. Especially when I went to training at um, Fort Monmouth. When I got back, she was really happy to see me. She, you know, didn't understand why I left her. You know, I was home with her for all-- her first year of her life. And then she was wasn't very understanding of why her mom left her. And so, I had to leave her again to go back to Fort Monmouth. And then when I saw her again at the Fitzsimons Army Medical Center, my husband, they drove there to get me. She didn't want to have anything to do with me. She just wanted her dad and she just 01:06:00kind of separated herself from me. Didn't want to be-- We were like, really close. And then all of a sudden now she's just like, you left me. I'm thinking, you know, she-- you left me again. So, now I'm not, you know, just not going to get attached to you or get close to you again, you know, kinda. So, that was very hurtful. Very, very hurtful. So, I never wanted to leave her again. Never wanted to leave her again. So, later, when they wanted to send me to Korea, I didn't enlist. So. They gave me orders while I was pregnant with my son. And when I told them, "I can't go. My son's due that month. I don't think I need to 01:07:00be--" So, they gave me new orders to go like, three months later, like in June or something. And I said no, and I would have had to re-enlist in order to go. So, I didn't re-enlist.

ROWELL: So, you had a bit of a choice there, but it didn't feel like a choice, probably.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Right. I had one year left and my coworker, he was actually training me to go before the board for the next promotion. But since I didn't sign the papers to re-enlist, that all went out the window.

ROWELL: That's difficult.

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, but I-- I didn't want to leave my daughter again. And I definitely did not want to leave my newborn baby. And so my husband was like-- his sister, you know, would help him and they would take care of them. And I'm like, I don't think so. No. And some other things were going on around in that. 01:08:00And so, I'd just felt like I wanted to hold onto my family. I needed to stay, but all in all, I had lost him. You know, he-- so, that was that.

ROWELL: And that was, um. And that was after you had spent those two years at Fort Sill. So, you had, um, you became pregnant with your-- your first son, uh, towards the end of your time at Fort Sill? Is that correct?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Towards the end, yeah.

ROWELL: So, that was two years after AIT.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Born February of '84, and I got out December of '84.

ROWELL: A couple of months later. Well, about a year later. Um, and then so, um, can you talk a bit about, um, some of your responsibilities at, um, Grierson 01:09:00Hill Chapel?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Sure. Just running-- running the church. Making sure that the church had everything that they needed. So, I would set up for the service, make sure that people that needed to get paid got paid. Made sure there was coffee and snacks and things of that nature. Count the money and deposited it into the bank on Sundays. Go grocery shopping for the different groups that came there to worship, especially the Korean group. I loved that because I got to eat, um, I can't think of the name of that beef and it was just on my tongue. But anyways, it's delicious. Whatever it is. [Laughs] Because now kimchi wants to come to my mind and I don't eat kimchi. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Right, that's different. Fermented vegetables. Yeah.

BOWERS-WINTERS: I don't eat that. But it's the very thinly sliced beef that they 01:10:00grilled and cooking. They season really well. And I eat it every time I go to Lawton, Oklahoma. And the word just left me. That's okay. But anyway. And then they did wontons and, you know, just different things. But they put pork in that so I couldn't eat those things because I don't pork.

Okay. Is that, um, part of a religious observance or a personal preference?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Is a part of respecting my dad's wishes because my dad was Muslim in the Nation of Islam. So, he asked me not to eat pork when I was about 15 and I stopped eating pork to respect my dad's wishes because I was very, very close to my dad.

Did you feel you had an even greater context for his Islamic practice when you were growing up? After having trained as a chaplain's assistant at all?

BOWERS-WINTERS: He made sure that I had a good understanding. He took me to the mosque with him often whenever he was in town or what have you. And uh, so I was 01:11:00pretty used to it. I even went to the Islamic school in St. Louis for a few months. So, he would constantly talk to me about it and I would listen to them. But like I said, I had a relationship with God and wasn't really sure what it was but I believe in Jesus Christ. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Yeah, you knew your own mind.

BOWERS-WINTERS: That's my Lord and Savior, you know. I believe he is God's son. So, they believe he's a great prophet. And so, we have those conversations and things. But my dad also would come to church with me if I invited him to come. There was, um, we had a really, really close, a very wonderful relationship, and 01:12:00I thank God for that.

ROWELL: Thank you for sharing that. Um, uh, did you, uh, this is kind of coming back to just logistical elements, day to day elements of your life before Sill. Did you ever live in military housing at any point with your-- with your husband and your daughter or your son? [Bowers-Winters shakes head no] Okay. So, you lived, um, away from the fort, uh, and you bought a house around this time? Can you talk a bit about that and your experience buying a house as a service member and living off-- living off post and that kind of thing?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. Well, when I came back from Fort Ord, he had already gotten us an apartment in a brand new apartment no one had ever lived in. He had them put deadbolts-- Bolts on the-- only-- only apartment that had a deadbolt on it [laughs] so that I would feel safe. And so, it started there. And, you know, 01:13:00after I had gotten out, and so by the time I went back in, we had already, um, we had bought a-- already bought our first house. We had gotten a house already. And, um, so after being in, then we had a house built there, but because that neighborhood was not safe, they broke into our home, stole a lot of things, and then I had bars-- um, I didn't feel safe because he went to work, like, in the wee hours of the morning. Um, people would come and ring the doorbell, so they-- There were some thefts in the area. And so, someone [inaudible]. "Open up the door. Your husband knows me." I don't know you. And I called the police, and then-- and I called my husband, and then they, uh, they left. But then the 01:14:00police said call us if they come back. And they did. And they were knocking on my bedroom window. In the wee hours of the morning. I had bars on at this time. And they were knocking on it. And so, the police came and then they-- they said, well, this guy, the particular guy that was ringing the doorbell and knocking, the neighbors, people would give them to-- him to go ring the doorbells and do stuff. And people opened the door and then they come and do whatever. But they didn't do anything about it. So, um, I wanted to get out that neighborhood.

ROWELL: Yeah. Did you talk to anyone, um, who worked for the Army about that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: No. No, I didn't. So, um. Yeah, that-- that was that. But living off post and-- I've only lived on post as a single person. I mean, you know, 01:15:00just being by myself. But once I got out, I never went back to the barracks

ROWELL: So, life was pretty different. And how were you received, um, you know, as a-- as a female, also as a-- as a Black woman and as a married woman at Fort Sill? How was that for you?

BOWERS-WINTERS: It worked out really well, working for a church.

ROWELL: That's great.

BOWERS-WINTERS: You know, it-- they had much love and respect for my husband, my children. Father Trapold, bless his heart. He was the most amazing priest to work for. Very selfless and just very kind. And I loved him so much. Um, I had another one that was very cocky and very all into himself. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Interesting for a clergyman. Yeah.

BOWERS-WINTERS: You know and some other nice ones that I was pretty close to and their family members. But um, Father Trapold was an amazing man. And he asked me what my husband wanted for Christmas, and he wanted a weight set, right? So, I told him he wanted a weight set. And so, my husband called me up and he said, he said, "This weight set, it was delivered to the house, did you buy this?" [Laughs] But it had to remain anonymous. [Inaudible] I just said no, but it is yours. It's a gift. [Laughs] You know. And so, very, very sweet. But then I also thought, well, what about me? [Laughs]

ROWELL: So, he didn't buy you anything.

BOWERS-WINTERS: No! [Laughs]

ROWELL: Oh, well, that's an unusual choice.

BOWERS-WINTERS: I was like, wow. Okay.

ROWELL: All right.

BOWERS-WINTERS: But I was glad that my husband was blessed with something that he desired to have.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, can you-- could you please spell that name for me? If you could?

BOWERS-WINTERS: If I remember. T-R-A-P-O-L-D. And I kept in touch with him and caught he ended up in a home or some-- somewhere. But the next time that I had called, they told me that he had passed.

ROWELL: I'm sorry to hear that.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yeah, I was very sad to hear that, too. You know, it happens. And um, also at Grierson Hill Chapel, I became very close to one of the sisters, and her name was Sister Marie. And my children and I would go visit her at her apartment and put puzzles together and just talk and she has a sweet heart, too. So, um, Grierson Hill Chapel was a milestone for me in just the great people 01:18:00that were there and also, with, um, the organist, whom I'm still friends with to this day. Still friends with her.

ROWELL: Wow. Was she also in the Army?

BOWERS-WINTERS: No, her husband was but retired. She was from Okinawa. He was Black. Or he is still. [Laughs] And, but yeah. Beautiful, beautiful family. Her daughter was Miss Oklahoma. So, just-- it was a-- So, I formed great friendships at Grierson Hill Chapel. Um, it was a great time for me. I was also honored with 01:19:00being the first enlisted chaplain's [inaudible] member.

ROWELL: Can you tell me more about that?.

BOWERS-WINTERS: I don't remember much more. [Laughs] I know we met and we talked about the finances. [Laughs] That's all I could tell you. But I do know that I was told that I was the first enlisted person to be asked to sit on that board.

ROWELL: That's an honor. All right. I think we're going to pause for time. But this ends segment one of the interview with Dawn Bowers-Winters on October 25th, 2022. This begins segment two of the interview with Dawn Lenee Bowers-Winters on October 25th, 2022. So, we were discussing you moving toward the end of your 01:20:00time at Fort Sill and towards the end of your time in the Army. Would you mind telling me a bit about what it was like to have your son at Fort Sill, at the medical center?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Oh, having my son there. I had my daughter there as well.

ROWELL: Ah, yes.

BOWERS-WINTERS: But having my son was tough. He was nine pounds, ten ounces. It was a rough, rough delivery. Thirty minutes of stitching afterwards while my husband walks off with the baby. [Laughs] I had to bring him back and to stay in the hospital for a few days because he had jaundice. But outside of that, it went well. It went well. It was very well received where I worked, as well as my daughter, they just spoiled my children rotten.

ROWELL: So, you got well-supported at the facility. All right. Um, and are there other elements that you would like to talk about, uh, in terms of the way that, uh, your colleagues, any of your NCOs, uh, um, reacted to the development in your family life?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I don't recall anything at all. Working at an actual chapel was very different than being at a unit or elsewhere. My life there was amazing because I didn't have to show up to formations or anything like that. I did the PT tests when necessary and maybe one formation a year being at Grierson Hill Chapel. There was a gym across the street, so I was able to go across the street and I would do aerobics for my exercise, which back then that was the big thing. 01:22:00[Laughs] So, lots of fun doing that. Um. Then, um, so yeah. Being at Grierson Hill Chapel, I really didn't run into very many people from my unit or any higher ups or anything, but people within the chaplaincy area. When I went to the office and that was always amazing because they're chaplains and we were in there to help people and-- and it was always a very loving and kind space. So, no, I never had any issues or anything with that. I mean, even when I was pregnant, they'll tell me to go lay down on the pews and rest for a little while. [Laughs]

ROWELL: So, um, to clarify, the-- the, um, the clergy members that you worked 01:23:00with, the-- the nuns that you worked with, were those all civilian people?

BOWERS-WINTERS: In Grierson Hill Chapel, they were civilians. The priest and then we had two office personnel which were military. And everyone else were civilians.

ROWELL: Um, and then before we talk about you leaving the Army, is there anything else you'd like to discuss about your time at Fort Sill or your service at large?

BOWERS-WINTERS: No, I think we pretty much covered it. You know, I totally expected something different than what I got. And there's good and there's bad in it, as in all things. I'm just very disappointed that one, I was talked out of going in as a computer repair person, rather, you know, I'm going in as a 01:24:00radar repair specialist rather than a computer repair person. Very upset about not receiving the rate that I deserved and should have had. You know, I didn't make specialist until I made it to Grierson Hill Chapel to that unit and that wasn't right. No, it wasn't right that I had to wait that long. And you know, the sexual harassment and all that. Parts of me-- I'm glad that I was able to suppress it and just not feel anything. Part of me. But then the other part of me, I feel like I missed out on life. I missed out on healthy, whole relationships. And, you know, I'm not happy about that. You know, I-- I don't 01:25:00know one way or the other how it affected, but I do know that my relationships have not been healthy. And I believe it's partly because something was very, very precious was taken away from me. And then I was choked and shaken and yelled at and just abused for being raped. And I just can't wrap my mind around it. I just-- to this day. I just-- if I hadn't experienced it myself, you know, I just wouldn't believe it. But it happened and it's part of my story and it's a part of what makes me who I am today. And I'm grateful for the person that I am 01:26:00today. I'm not grateful for the things that I'm having the walk out. But it'll all work itself out eventually. But I met a lot of great people and I had a lot of great peers in the military, so I don't want to discount that.

ROWELL: Thank you for sharing that. We you touched earlier on the, um-- part of the impetus for your leaving the Army, which was, uh, an expectation that you would, uh, go to Korea and that you decided not to do that. Can you say more about that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Could you repeat that?

ROWELL: Um, so you were-- you were going to get orders to go to Korea, um, following birth-- the birth of your son. And you left the Army in part because of that. Can you say anything else about that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. I wish they had wanted to send me somewhere my family could have gone so I could have stayed in. [Laughs] I was very disappointed. Very, 01:27:00very disappointed. It's like of all the things and all the places, why Korea? Now, if I had been single or had no children, I would have loved to have gone to Korea to serve there. But that just wasn't an option. After experiencing the hurt that I felt from leaving my daughter to go to Fort Monmouth for the second time, and then also to have to leave my newborn baby behind. It just wasn't worth it. But I didn't want to get out.

ROWELL: And do you recall the date that you discharged?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Not the exact date. I just know it was December of 1984.

ROWELL: And, um. Now, I think, uh, I'd like to ask you about your transition into civilian life for the second time. Um, what was that like for you? That 01:28:00last time?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Scary. It was a little scary, but exciting at the same time because I was able to be home with my baby, who was still under a year old and with my daughter. Um. But that meant I was unemployed. And finding a job in Lawton, Oklahoma is not an easy task at all. Not at all. So, um. It was said that I had to get out. The reason why I had to get out, but I felt like I had no other options. And so, I just had to figure it out. You know, with a husband that didn't like communicating. So, it was very difficult for me. And I'm sure 01:29:00financially, you know, it was a strain on him as well. But at the same time, being a married couple, you're supposed to work together. Be on one accord and work it out and figure it out together. So, I eventually thought about going to work in the mess, the dining facility. They got paid pretty well doing that, but because he was a manager, he didn't want me doing that. [Laughs] Now, I don't know if it was because he was a manager or because he was messing around with his secretary. I don't know which one it was at this point. But nonetheless, um. I just chose not to do that. But I then got a job as-- um, a job developer for 01:30:00the Vietnamese at a church and that was quite interesting. The people there, they knew me because a lot of them got jobs doing what I just said I was going to attempt to do. So, they knew my husband, they knew me, and they were very sympathetic and gave me great compliments. And I'm forever grateful and thankful to them for one, remembering me and two, for encouraging me in that-- in my situation.

ROWELL: And did your work as a chaplain's assistant really inform how you perform in that position? Do you think?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I'm sure that it played a part, um. My love for people and their well-being and just their enjoyment in life and doing well in life no matter 01:31:00what area it is, you know? Um. It's just-- and to this day, it's still the same. And that's how I feel about people. I really care about helping them to fulfill their dreams and their purpose in life. So, being the job developer, it was-- it was great because I got to get out and find jobs for people and take people to interviews and just see things change in their lives.

ROWELL: Okay. I think we're going to take a pause for a moment. So, this ends segment two of the interview with Dawn Lenee Bowers-Winters on October 25th, 2022. This begins segment three of the interview with Dawn Lenee Bowers-Winters on October 25th, 2022. So, we were discussing your transition into civilian life 01:32:00and civilian work and your work at the Vietnamese church. Um, what else did you do in your career following service?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, the church itself was a Catholic church that was, I guess, commissioned to help the Vietnamese find jobs. So, I didn't stay there very long. I was pregnant then with my third child who is now in the military. He in the United States Army. But I was pregnant with my third child as I was doing this this job. Um. Again, life in Lawton is very different. It's just-- I call it a little hick town. [Laughs] When I got there, I could not believe that their mall only had one level and they didn't have city buses and most places didn't 01:33:00have sidewalks. There were chickens and stuff in people's back yard. There was a rooster that woke me up. [Laughs] There were lambs at another person's yard or some sheep or whatever they were. But it was a very interesting place for me. A huge adjustment. So, it didn't surprise me that jobs were hard to find. Good paying jobs were very difficult. Most jobs only paid minimum wage. So, that was um-- Very difficult for me. Mm-hm.

ROWELL: And so where did you, um. Where did you go after Lawton? You moved away from Oklahoma?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Well, I had to leave Oklahoma because of the situation with my ex-husband and his-- and his new person and how I was reacting and taking it. My 01:34:00daughter ran away from home. That was a big fiasco. She-- I didn't think she would go anywhere. I let her step outside the door. She's afraid of the dark, so it's like, I didn't think she was going-- She actually left from the front of the house. So, I start making phone calls and trying to find her, went out looking for her, had my two sons in the car with me. She was down in the ditch, so I couldn't see her on the road. So, she walked through the ditch, which-- very brave little six-year-old. And she came out on the other side. And that's where my ex-husband, well, my ex-husband's sister found her coming about the ditch, her and her daughter. And so-- and I had called the babysitter because we're all-- we're all in that same area. So, I called the babysitter and her son 01:35:00was out looking for her. And so, everybody was looking. Police. Anyways. Well, actually, they called the police on me. Once they got her to the house and was cleaning her up. Said I was a terrible mom, that I neglect my children, and whatever else they said. I don't know what they said about me, but all of it was untrue. So, my ex-husband and his sister came and drove up in front of my home and sat there. So, I went out to ask them why they were sitting in front of my house and the sister and I almost got into a fight and I'm not disrespectful to my elders. But you were messing with my children. So, I'm just [laughs] I'm like, don't mess with my children. So. Um. You know. The police came and told me 01:36:00what was said about me and that they had to take my daughter. And, um. And I'm like, I have custody. She belongs with me. But because of the charge-- what they're saying about me, they couldn't release her back to me. And I said, "Well, then she can spend the night with them, but they can't have my daughter. No." And then it was like, "Well, we're going to take her away." To the children's-- wherever they take people. Children. So I was like, okay. Let me get her some clothes. And I got her some clothes. You know, sent her on her way. And the next day, I told the pastor-- I worked for First United Methodist Church of Lawton at the time. The first Black secretary ever. All White church. They said they have one Black member, elderly lady, but that was it. I never saw her. 01:37:00But, um. So, that was an amazing thing as well. Anyways, the pastor of that church, um, I told him what happened and he went downtown with me and I spoke with the detective. They gave me the address to where my daughter was. Told me to go pick her up. I did. And had lunch with her, talked to her and explained some things to her. Now, earlier, I was telling you how difficult the divorce was for her. Offline. The divorce is very difficult for her. And so, that was part-- part of it. So, I had a conversation with her and worked everything out. Um, so that was the second incident. [REDACTED] That was the most amazing 01:39:0001:38:00experience that I've had. So, with those three incidents taking place, I was like, you know, it's time for me to go. I need to leave here. So, I call my mother, who lives in Milwaukee, told her I was going to come home and she sent my dad to come get me. She didn't want me on the road with my children by myself. Of course, they weren't together. They've been long divorced. [Laughs] But she sent my dad. And I have a little bitty car and my dad is six foot seven. Or he was six foot seven. And I had a little bitty car, so I had, you know, my 01:40:00three children, myself and then my dad in this little car trying to move back, move up here. So, that's what I ended up doing. And shortly after that, my sister-in-law passed away and my ex didn't want me to come to the service. But then later his sister yelled at me. At least one of his sisters yelled at me for not being there. "Well, your brother didn't want me there." But it didn't matter. You should be there. So, I was, you know, I was like, what could I do if he didn't want me there? I wasn't going to be there, so. So anyways, I moved to Milwaukee.

ROWELL: We've been doing the stage of life.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. A place where I never wanted to return, but I had no other 01:41:00place to go at that time. Still very young and on my journey and, um. Still hadn't dealt with what happened to me from the very beginning. So, it wasn't-- wasn't very pleasant, but I started working for a law firm for a little bit. It's a personal injury firm. I was learning and growing in that position and ran into-- well, I'd gone to a festival with someone and then they decide they wanted to stop and have drinks or something [inaudible] for taking me home, it was a family friend. And so, they took me to this one place that was closed and 01:42:00took me to this other place. And I don't really drink. I drink sugary stuff. So, I said, I wanted a strawberry daquiri. Not knowing that taverns or bars or whatever don't serve those kinds of drinks. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Especially in the land of beer, Wisconsin.

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, the bartender was like, "I have just the drink for you." And it was a fuzzy navel. And I fell in love with fuzzy navels. [Laughs] Still not a big drinker or anything, you know, I can't taste the liquor because I don't like the taste of it and I really don't like the way it makes me feel. Back then I was younger and, um, so I fell in love with that fuzzy navel and someone walked in [inaudible] it was dark in there. My back was turned to the-- facing to the door, facing me. My back was facing the door. They came in, walked by. Next thing I know, they came back and said, "Is your name Dawn Lenee Bowers?" And I'm 01:43:00like, "Yes." And so they said something and they were like, "I don't mean any disrespect," talking to the person next to me and stuff. And so and then they went about-- went they way. And I'm like, what in the world? So, and then I went to go talk to them a little bit and then got their number. And so we started communicating. And then I ended up moving to Texas with them eventually. And that was the decision that we were going to get married and biggest mistake in the world. [Laughs] But that was a choice I made because at that point, I had given up. I just was tired of trying to do what was right. I was trying-- I was 01:44:00just so exhausted. And so, I thought, might as well be like everybody else in this world and just go do whatever, you know. And mind you, I never wanted to be in Milwaukee anyway. So, that was the perfect opportunity to leave again. [Laughs] But then get there and the truth comes out. And he's very abusive and he didn't hit me or anything, but with his words and different things. And he took over my car and he had an accident with a police officer with my vehicle. And, um. First thing he did, though, was put speakers, cut it and put speakers in and did, you know, just was just taken over. And then he threatened to throw me out of a window. Out the sliding doors and some other stuff, you know. And 01:45:00so, I decided to pack up and leave. So, I packed up and left when he came home. Wasn't anything left there but my cross hanging on the wall. So, he was just searching, searching, searching for me. And then I decided to go back to Austin, Texas, where we had gone. Decided to go back and give it another try. And so, it didn't work out. Didn't work out. But I had gotten a job at University of Texas system, which was a great job that I learned. And they were very, very-- the leadership in my area, at least. Uh. It just wasn't pleasant. And it just wasn't a pleasant thing. I mean, it was, uh, it was a great job had I been able to 01:46:00stick around and figure it out. But I ended up getting pregnant by this person. All because I went out on a date with him to someone's bachelor party and he got jealous because I had been to a bachelorette party and this guy was a stripper. Little scrawny guy. Didn't look like anything. And then they gave me money to give them, but I handed it to him in his hand [Laughs] in his hotel room or whatever. So, as I was leaving, him and his girlfriend were also leaving and I stopped and had words with him, you know, before leaving. So, for this, um, birthday party, they were having this double birthday party. Um, the two of them showed up. They were waiting for a stripper for these people in this public place or whatever. But, um, and the two of them showed up, so I was like, "Oh!" 01:47:00You know, my personality. I'm like, "Hi!" I hugged him and he kissed me on the cheek. And so this guy, he gets mad and said I kissed them. I said, I didn't kiss him, you know? And he was like, "You got these people looking--" da da da. "You're embarrassing me in front of--" da da da da da. And he was just so upset and so angry. And so, I allowed him in my bed that night and got pregnant. Used protection. But I got pregnant. So, I said I was putting the baby up for adoption. And I've had a long talk with the three children already. And I went through-- I had gotten a book and I went through this book about how babies are born and how they grow in Mommy's tummy and just talk to them about it. And let's tell them my decision to put the baby up-- I didn't know whether it was 01:48:00girl or boy or anything-- up for adoption, you know, so. I talked to my church. I was going to an all-White church at the time. A Methodist church in little city Round Rock where I lived. And so they helped me and they told me about a place in San Antonio and I went to go visit. I took the-- took the father with me to go visit, and we hung out in San Antonio and had a good time. He didn't go in the building with me because he didn't want any part of that, but he signed the papers for the adoption. I never signed the papers. So, one morning, I had told my mother about it as well. I didn't have the greatest relationship with my mom, but I had called her and told her about it. And so, a miracle happened. She called me. She never calls me. So, she called me and she asked me not to put my 01:49:00baby up for adoption. I was like-- but I had been praying, of course, praying that, you know, what to do. What was the right thing to do? What would God want me to do? So, she called. So, okay, that was sign number one. And then my first-born son just out of the blue said, "Mom, don't-- don't put our baby up for adoption. Don't give our baby away." I said, okay, Lord. You've spoken. [Laughs] So, I went through with it. I asked the father of my first three kids to, um, take care of the kids that he can, you know, have them. I'll visit on the whatever, but, you know, mentally, I was at my capacity.

ROWELL: And we had discussed kind of, um, between segments that you felt that your-- your traumatic experience that you had in service related to these tribulations kind of in life and those relationships, right?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I definitely believe that because of what was taken away from me with that rape, you know, just-- you know, not having that experience prior and having, you know, having it to come that day and then attacked behind it, you know, just-- I believe really made a huge difference in how I approach those things and approach life. And then my husband not being faithful and loving and kind and wanting and desiring me, um, added on to that. You know. So, I just 01:51:00checked it out and I honestly believe that I lost my mind. I honestly believe that because the person I chose to be with was not a person that I would have ever given the time of day, nevertheless moved to another city and eventually married. Yeah. So, um. Very abusive. He would tell me how he was dreaming of torturing me. He would literally-- we would be laying in bed and he'll tell me how he thought about torturing me. And you know, my God is so good. My relationship with him is so wonderful. I was never afraid of him. He was-- I watched him break his knuckles beating up someone I watched him beat people. You know, I tried to stop him at one point, but he just threw me off of them or whatever. But, you know, that's just his way. You know? But I was at a house, at 01:52:00someone else's house with him, with my kids. Well, I drove separately. I went there because I was asked to come. This guy, this Caucasian male, came over and was tying my son's shoe and told my son what a beautiful mommy you have. And next thing I know, he was taking them outside and knocking him out.

ROWELL: And these are never things you would have condoned [inaudible].

BOWERS-WINTERS: No. And so, I wasn't married to him at that point. But because once I'm in a relationship, I like to stay in relationship and do my best to try to make it work and try, you know, to see if things will change, if the person will come to your senses or I'll come to mine. What-- whatever, you know, happen. And again, at that point in time, I pretty much wasn't myself. So, um, 01:53:00so I gave, you know, so once I got pregnant, I was-- he was like, "Let's get married." I was like, "No, no, no." He was like, "Hit me. Do--" You know, no, it's not going to change anything. I ended up losing my job. And so I decided, you know. I sent my kids to their dad and I came to Milwaukee and to my mom's to be around family, and, um. So, the first kid that I had at home. So, it was an experience. And my dad was there with me. It was good. My dad spent a lot of time with me. But when I had my baby, which is my fourth child, my best friend from childhood, I've known them since I was eleven, and my aunt that I had used 01:54:00to get sent to church with, with the quarter. [Laughs] Two of them were there in the room with me. For the first time I was around family and friends when I had a child. So, that was special. It was very nice. But he-- I didn't let him know where I was until just, uh, maybe a month before I had the baby, because I just left town and didn't tell him where I was. So, he thought I had put the baby up for adoption.

ROWELL: So, you had mentioned, um, that, um, this, you know, your MST experience, your military sexual trauma, you were not able to address it until 2018. Can you talk about what changed for you and how you went about-- you've 01:55:00been going about that recovery process?

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, um, in 2015, I was invited to-- well, actually, I was told about a program called Mending the Soul. A friend of mine had gone through it, and she told me. She's also a veteran. And she told me that would be a good thing for me to do. So, I looked into it and signed up for it and went through it and was like a twelve, fourteen-week program and once a week. You meet for like three hours or so. And it's a book, a regular book, and a workbook that went with it that walks you through trauma, traumatic experiences in your life 01:56:00and it's Christian-based. And that was when I first began to really talk about it.

ROWELL: At any point, um, were you able to, um, ask for care as a veteran? Work-- or seek out veterans' benefits?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. When I first moved back to Milwaukee, um, because after that marriage and that divorce and being abused in every way imaginable, um, in that relationship, then, um, I moved to several other places and I ended up moving to Florida and I got married there and which only lasted eleven months which was amazing to me. Um, I just don't know how I ended up, you know, doing 01:57:00it again when marriage means so much to me. And I think it's very sacred and you don't take it lightly. But somehow I end up in these relationships where the men are not sincere and they don't truly love me and want to be my husband and want to walk out life with me. Don't even know why they bother to marry me in the first place, but that's just the way that it went. But after going through all of that, and I decided, okay, the elder in my church in Florida told me that God said I need to get-- plant some roots. And I can do that in Florida, or I could do that in Milwaukee, but I need to get to somewhere and plant some roots. And I chose to come back to Milwaukee because my-- a couple of my sons were here and my brothers were here. So, I chose to come home. Although, I never liked 01:58:00Milwaukee [laughs], but just to come home. Uh, and so that was in-- the end-- December 2011. It wasn't that easy journey for me. But seven years later, I was in that program and it started my journey to healing.

ROWELL: Was that the first time you had sought care directed specifically for veterans?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I-- well, that program was for everyone. 2018, that was for--

ROWELL: Survivors of--

BOWERS-WINTERS: Female survivors. Um. But that gave me the courage to talk about it in the mili-- because I started going to the VA. I had never looked into what 01:59:00my benefits were until I moved back to Milwaukee in 2011. And so it was more 2013, I think, when I really started looking into benefits and the things that were available to me because I was homeless. I was-- I was just like, at the bottom, at my wits end at that point.

ROWELL: And did you-- were you able to receive any assistance when you were displaced and you didn't have a place to live?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I did. Well, actually, I was staying with a friend who whenever they drank, they would try to force themselves on me and it would be a big thing. You know, and then a lot of the times they would have-- They would leave their house to keep peace and, you know, and I was like, that's not right. I need to do something different. And plus their girlfriends didn't like me being 02:00:00there. It was just a big hassle. So, I was looking for work. So, in the midst of doing that, talking to a veteran representative, they told me about CVI, Center for Veterans Issues, and made a phone call and sent me to them. And then they in turn sent me to move [inaudible] House. And I went by there to check it out and stuff. And then the next day I packed my stuff and I went there to stay. And that was not an easy journey either. But I made-- the females there, they stole from me. They, um, they just-- they stole from me, so. Plus, it wasn't good, having to pee in a cup once a week with somebody watching you and you don't do drugs or alcohol and, you know, just the whole dynamic of it. I could have left 02:01:00and gone back where I came from because it wasn't easy. But I chose to stay. I chose to stay. And while I was there, I did go to MATC and get my certificate for ALDA, substance abuse counseling. So, I did accomplish that while I was there. I decided not to put in my hours for it. I didn't think that was the proper job for me, but the knowledge was important and I wanted to be a family counselor. Had planned to go to college for that. Hasn't happened yet.

ROWELL: Mm-hm. But currently, um, you do work at the [XXXXXXXX]. Is that correct?

BOWERS-WINTERS: That is correct.

ROWELL: Okay. Well, um, could you please talk a little bit about your current role at the [XXXXXXXX] and what that is? What the [XXXXXXXX] is.

BOWERS-WINTERS: The [XXXXXXXX] is a respite for veterans ran by veterans and 02:02:00it's the first ever in our country, in the nation. And we're very proud to be the first ones. To be the pioneers in that. Um, people-- right now is it's just four of those in Wisconsin, in the state of Wisconsin. Anyone from the state of Wisconsin can come and stay in the home for up to seven days. It's free of charge and they can come and sleep the whole time, if that's what they need. Or they can come and work on a specific area. But we're all about wholeness in every area of the veteran's life. Beautiful home, full size pool. We have a gym, we're ADA compliant. It's just beautiful. We provide-- I mean, we provide staples, but they're responsible for their own meals while they're there.

ROWELL: And can you speak about what your position is there and what that 02:03:00consists of?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes, I am a certified peer specialist there. Certified by the state of Wisconsin to be a peer specialist and [inaudible], not just veterans that also went through-- [inaudible] go through QR-- QPR-- I get the initials because one is training for suicide and then the other one is training for veterans. And I'm sorry, I can't remember those initials right now.

ROWELL: That's okay. But you received training for that?

BOWERS-WINTERS: But we went there for training, for veterans specific and was certified through them as well. So, yeah, I love it. I love the fact that I am made available to give back and to be there for my fellow peers.

ROWELL: And, um, if you feel comfortable, would you mind talking a bit about how maybe your own experiences informs the way that you assist other veterans and 02:04:00talk them through what they are going through?

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, to be a certified peer specialist, you have had to have gone through something, either substance use or mental health. So, mine's is the mental health. And so, my experiences in dealing with those things. Um. Major depression, I have-- depression has kind of overtaken my life, and especially when I was younger, my forties, I mean, I lost a lot because I'd go into these deep depression-- depressive moments where I can't even get up and go to work. All I can do is just curl up in a little ball. I didn't want to do life anymore. And even with having small children around. You know, it was really hard. But I 02:05:00tried to make myself be able to take care of them as best I could. Because I was all that they had when they were with me. And that was part of the reason why I ended up just asking their dad to take them and keep them for a while. But had I known, they would have-- they had the life that they were going to have with him, I would have taken chances with them just staying with me in the state of mind that I was in. But I made the choice to send them to their dad. But life has been very difficult dealing with depression. It has been a very horrible thing. And then I'm known as Miss Picky. Everything has to, you know, be a certain position and a certain place in the refrigerator, in the cabinets. Everything has to face right and be-- all the piece together, all the-- [laughs] Just very picky person when it comes to stuff like that. Fold your towel up 02:06:00before putting it on the rack. Don't just toss it up there, you know, kind of thing. And you know, this stuff. It was very hard. Depression, many times I would just not get out of bed. My one job, I would get up and go in and then I just end up turning around and coming back. And I was praying, praying the whole time, God, please take me to be with you because I didn't want to take my own life. I've thought about it a few times over the years. I thought about driving off [inaudible] said, well, I'll just crash and still be alive to deal with the aftermath, you know, like, I might try, but I'll still be left here to deal with it. It'd just be one more thing you added on. You know, that's how I was thinking. Um, and-- but I prayed and I begged God to just take me to be with 02:07:00him. I didn't want to be here anymore. And this was after I had all five of my children, and I just didn't want to do life anymore. I just-- it's so hard. Not being-- feeling like you're all alone in this world, and you know, that you're not lovable. [Gets emotional] That nobody wants you. And you have all this love that you want to give, this, you know, that you want to give someone but nobody wants. You know, my children, I poured my love on them because I didn't have that when I was growing up very much. So, when I saw my dad, my dad showed that he was concerned and he cared but he wasn't around much. Which, you know, I 02:08:00appreciate what he did have to give to me, but I know that he should have been able to give much more. But what he was able to give to me was himself, was his love, sincere love. And I'm grateful that I had his love. But, it just-- it just hurts so bad. Just-- I go in between not feeling anything at to feeling everything. And I would go and I don't know what would trigger me to do either one, but I know for many years I felt nothing after being raped and beaten up. But, then I began to feel and want to be loved and wanted when my husband wasn't willing or able to give it to me. And that hurt. That hurt a lot. But, even in 02:09:00that, I made the decision. I told him, I said, if you don't spend time with me, I'm going to find somebody who will. And I did just that. You know, so I would hang out with other people, but I never made love to them. I never, you know, was intimate or anything with them. But I enjoyed that little bit, that little moment of feeling like I mattered instead of having to live in a home where I feel like I don't matter and I'm not loved. So, you know-- so, at this point, I just wanted to be leave here and I was probably about thirty-five or so. Yeah, thirty-four, thirty-five. Maybe thirty-six or seven. Somewhere in there at this point, when I'm just begging God to just take me away. I didn't-- I just didn't 02:10:00want to be here anymore. 'Course he didn't do it. But it was a long process. The longest time that I spent in this state of mind. It was over a month. It was a really long time and I was still going to church. Sundays and Wednesdays, I'd sit in my car and cry, begging God, and then I'd come into service. And next I couldn't work so I couldn't pay my rent. And so, that was another thing. [XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX]. And it just like, it was just a lot. But I listened to the Word of God. I went to the public library and got the word-- the whole entire thing of the word of 02:11:00God. Because cassette players were really good [inaudible]. So, I pop it in my car if I was in my car, while I cooked dinner, it was playing in the kitchen, when I was in my bedroom where I was locking myself in my room, just playing the word, playing and just listening, listening, trying -- doing what I knew to do, all that I could do, while asking God to take me to be with him, just listen to his word. Just listen. Just get his word in. Get his word in. And eventually I went to a Wednesday night service and the pastoral pastor gave the message that night. And the pastoral pastor is the one that's over making sure people have food and shelter and all those things. He gave the word that night. And I do not remember what he said, but whatever he said began my healing for that moment. 02:12:00And I was on my way to somewhat of a normal me. You know, not begging God to take me away. And once I got out of it, I said, God, I will do whatever it takes to never, ever, ever, ever get to that point again in depression. It was a very, very hard. Very hard. But, you know, in the midst of all that, you know, I had-- I lost my dad prior to that. I had lost my best friend. And two and a half years after I lost him, I lost my mom. God blessed me to see both of them two weeks 02:13:00before they passed away. So, I'm grateful for that. But yes, dealing with depression, dealing with I'm just not feeling love enough. Not-- just not feeling appreciated or wanted or desired. Um. And then it's like, I got married three times. They ask me, there's something they must have seen that they liked. They wanted to be around. So, what happened after we got married that changed everything? My first husband wouldn't communicate, so, I don't know. I don't know. The second one, he just wanted to tell me what to do and own me. So, I don't know. And the third one, pretty much the same. He just wanted to tell me 02:14:00what to do. He wanted me to be a puppet and. so, I don't know. You know, I don't know what the answers are, but, um, I do feel like a lot was taken from me by that being my first experience.

ROWELL: So, through the care that you've received working, you know, uh, going to workshops with different organizations meant to-- meant to get clarity for survivors of MST, military sexual trauma, um, do you feel that has been helpful for giving you-- giving you kind of perspective or an element of healing?

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, Mending the Soul-- Mending the Soul was the greatest help because it got me to talking about it and freeing myself. To just to be able to talk about it. Now, the VA, in the counseling that I receive there, to me, hasn't really focused on that incident. It's focused on the depression, it's focused on these cognitive things. And I keep asking to talk about it or walk it out, but it's just not happening. One of the therapists did try PE with me. And so, the first time, and that's prolonged exposure. So, the first time, it went 02:16:00well, then the second time it didn't go so well. All there was darkness. But I wasn't able to cry for a very long time. Very, very long time. That incident caused me to start crying. And I've been crying ever since. So, it did serve the purpose of allowing me to shed tears. But I shed tears because the process wasn't working and my body or my mind or whatever, that part that protects us, shut down. And I wanted to deal with it. I wanted to let it out. I just wanted to be rid of it. [Gets emotional] I just don't want to go through another thing 02:17:00in my life that affected me. I don't want to be depressed anymore. I am a child of the most high God. I'm a minister to Milwaukee. A chaplain. I am a minister in my church. I teach the word of God to adults and I felt God with all my heart and I trust and I believe his word. And yet I'm still stuck in this place. I want to be unstuck. I don't want to be stuck anymore. And people look at me because I have the love of God in me and I trust him. I don't react in a way that I really feel inside. And I keep to myself a lot. I used to walk a lot. 02:18:00This year, I haven't walked much. And I don't really know why, but it saddens me. I'll look out the window. It's a beautiful day and I want to go walking. But I can't make myself go out the door. I don't understand why. I don't understand. But sometimes I appear to people as being okay, and I'm not okay. I don't want to be homeless anymore. So, I make myself, I remind myself, what did it mean if I don't get up and go to work? It's hard. It's hard. It's really hard. But I don't ever want to be homeless again. I don't want to ever have to go back to [inaudible] House again. So, I do what's necessary to survive as best I can. But 02:19:00inside, I feel like I'm dying and I'm constantly praying to God and I make my declarations every day. I know he's with me because look at where I'm at. I know he's with me and I know he provides for me. He's answering my prayers. But something is missing. Something, you know, something is really missing. So, advocating for myself, I found this program in Boston that I'll be going to in a couple of weeks, and I believe in God that it's another piece of the puzzle to healing. You know, I'm believing that I will find a breakthrough or some kind of release in some area, because it's not a once a week or once a month thing. It's 02:20:00this two weeks of straight continuous therapy. And so, I won't have to wait a week or a month to get to the next step or to say what I want to say or need to say. I have less of the times [inaudible] to get it out. So, I'm excited about this program and the process, and they don't take it lightly, and I'm not taking it lightly either. So, yes, I am super excited about that. So, I'm not one to blame others for what's going on in my life. My childhood was horrible. I scored a ten on the ACES test. I can put a checkmark in all ten of those pieces that I experienced. All of those things. So, my childhood was not the greatest, but I 02:21:00made the best of it as best I could, you know, and at the time and going through it, I didn't know it was a terrible, horrible thing. I know I wasn't like, the happiest person, but I went to school, I did my work. I was very smart, very bright, very sharp. And I hung out with guys for the most part. And, you know, high school, I just stayed busy in high school as best I could and kept it moving. And once I signed those papers to go in the Army, just, you know, I looked forward to that and I would have enjoyed my senior year a little better, but I was angry. I was really angry. You know, being a junior, I had straight A's. I had one B. B in geometry. Just couldn't get all those angle things. [Inaudible] But I wasn't celebrated by my mom. My brother came home with a mock 02:22:00report card from elementary school. She broke-- at the same time, and she broke open a bottle of champagne and she forced me to drink it. I didn't want any, but she forced me to toast and drink to his good grades and I was not acknowledged at all for my good grades. A junior in high school. So, I just-- I wanted-- I just wanted out. And I was so looking forward to going into the Army. A new life for me. I had no idea that it would be such a rough start. It had a good ending as far as my career, so to speak, outside of the fact that I wanted to stay in 02:23:00but I couldn't. [Laughs]

ROWELL: It brought you to your role at the [XXXXXXXX] ultimately.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. So, yes, everything that happened led up to me being able to serve my fellow veterans through the [XXXXXXXX].

ROWELL: Thank you for sharing that with me.

BOWERS-WINTERS: And even at the [XXXXXXXX], in their hiring, they hired someone. And within the first week or two, that person had it in for me. A Black male veteran. And I don't know if it was because I required everybody to wear their mask and they didn't want to wear their mask. Or because I am picky and want everything in its place. I had them to clean up behind themselves, not just 02:24:00them, but another person and put things back in place. And I was like, no, that don't go there, that goes over there. And that was all I said. And from that day on, life was living hell at work for me. And I only had to spend thirty minutes in the same room, thirty to forty minutes in the same room with that person, or the same house with that person. But they made it, I mean, they yelled at me when I tried to talk to them about whatever it was because I didn't know what it was. They talked about me to my face, but two of my other coworkers in very bad ways and said very bad things. They wouldn't accept the Christmas card that I had given to the whole staff. I made Christmas cards for the whole staff. Wouldn't accept it, but told other people they had it so they could make sure that I knew that it was there, but they weren't taking it. Playing mind games 02:25:00with me. They would have me-- they would have the whole house pitch black and had me walk into a pitch black house while they were there. It was just so much. So much. And when I reported it and kept reporting it and talking about, I said, look, either, I said, something's going to be done or I'm out of here. We had a staff meeting and in that staff meeting they pretty much said they didn't care. Now, working at the [XXXXXXXX], that's not our attitude. That's not how we conduct ourselves. We're there for one another and we're there to support one another and to be loving and kind to one another, not drive another person crazy [laughs] with our actions and our words and threatening. So, it was a-- It was a 02:26:00long process. And I stayed-- I advocated for myself and kept staying on it and advocated and called meetings and because it's like nobody was understanding what I was dealing with and what I was going through. I told them I wouldn't be in the house with that person alone, so someone has to be there and I'm not going in here. So, that happened. And sure enough, this one person for the first time was working that shift, they walked into the pitch black house. But this time, that person was sitting right there. And so, they got to experience it instead of me. I had a witness. I had, you know, someone that could back me up as to what was happening. You know. So, uh, but anyways, that, and then they 02:27:00proceeded to just talk bad about me to that person after I walked into the room. And it was just, it was craziness. I, again, I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone. I was like, what is it about me that people don't like? What is it about me that they take offense? You know, if you didn't like me telling you to put that blanket over there instead of over there, say so. What am I going to do? Just say you think it's okay where it's at. And if it bothered me that much, I'll move the blanket myself. You know, it's just-- I didn't say or do anything that warranted being treated the way that I was being treated. And they would not talk to me. They would not have a conversation with me. Our job, we can't do that. You know, so. Then I was being attacked by staff. And I was like, you know 02:28:00how rape victims may feel being told you're the fault, you know? That's the kind of reaction that I was getting. So, I had to stand up for myself in that as well. And eventually it was resolved and eventually he was let go because he refused to apologize to me. All he had to do was apologize and change his actions and he rather lose his job than to apologize and change his actions towards me. Why? Why? So, it's like-- and then, it was so bad that I kept thinking someone was going to bust my door down and I wasn't safe. On the highway, I thought that I was about to be gunned down on the highway. Literally. I really thought I was going to be gunned down on the highway. And so, it just-- 02:29:00there's really-- PTSD that just flared up over someone that was supposed to be a helper to veterans. To be a support to veterans. And that and then also, you know, it lasted for a long time. That had lasted for a long time. But I prayed my way through it. You know, God has not given me the spirit of [inaudible] power, love, and a sound mind. And I would repeat those things to myself and repeat that I'm not alone. God is here with me. I'm protected by the angels. And, you know, and so I got through it by reminding myself of [inaudible] and slept peacefully. As peacefully as I can because I don't really sleep peacefully. But very difficult. Very difficult. So, in my three years at 02:30:00[XXXXXXXX] for the most part have been good, but I have had my challenges as well.

ROWELL: And even when you're doing something that you love and care about, sometimes, you know, symptoms can arise and things can arise those feelings in you, right?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. And, you know, and I don't claim to be a perfect person because I'm not. There is no perfect person here on Earth. But I do know that I didn't do anything that warranted that kind of behavior. If my presence make you feel like that, Lord, have mercy. I just don't know what to say, you know?

ROWELL: And if you-- would you feel comfortable talking about, um, having experienced this and been-- and felt deeply affected by these symptoms of this PTSD that you now carry, how do you feel it is best to approach other veterans 02:31:00who may be experiencing that same thing and find a way to get through to them or bring them to a place where they can receive some care?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Just being honest. Being honest with them and just telling my story if necessary. Because as a certified peer specialist, we don't tell our story unless it's absolutely necessary. But the main thing is how is the end result? So, in just talking to them and just seeing where they're at and then offering suggestions. Finding out what they want because it's all about them and it's all about what they desire for their lives. So, so it all depends on what the person's answer is and what they desire.

ROWELL: In our pre-interview phone call, you expressed to me that for you now, given your experience, it feels important to you that people are able to face the trauma that they've experienced. Um, for other service members, other veterans who have experienced something similar, do you have any kind of words of advice on how to initiate that process?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Being brave enough to ask for the help that you need. Just making that phone call. And if you need support, call us at the [XXXXXXXX] and we'll walk with you. Walk with you. We'll make that phone call with you. You don't have to do it alone because you're not alone. Even though it may feel like it, there is support.

ROWELL: Can you tell me, um, are you engaged with other veterans organizations 02:33:00right now?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Healing Warrior Hearts, um, the Center for Creative Learning with Patricia Clason. I volunteer for Healing Warrior Hearts, which is a retreat for veterans dealing with PTSD. And I love it. You know, they receive what they need, but then those of us staffing, it also receive healing in our hearts as well. I do go to [inaudible] with WoVeN. So, the women [inaudible], don't ask me what it's for. But with the veteran women, we just had a get together a couple of weekends ago and it was great. So, I love gathering with the other veteran 02:34:00women and having a wonderful time together, and especially through the Vet Center as well. But now they meet on Tuesdays in the [inaudible], I'm not able to be a part of that because Tuesdays are our busiest day of the week. But when we did have our meetings on Mondays at the Vet Center, that was once a month and that was great.

ROWELL: Can you talk about what you feel is most important about connecting with other veterans, especially other women veterans?

BOWERS-WINTERS: You have support. You have camaraderie. You know, it's-- even if you don't talk about what's going on, you have-- you have those few moments of laughter and just letting your hair down and just being yourself and not being judged in any way.

ROWELL: And, um, are there any specific kind of areas that, from your own 02:35:00experience, you feel veterans remain underserved who are struggling?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I think there's a lot that needs to happen still with military sexual trauma. I think that there's-- there's a long way to go with that, probably. Because even though I brought it up a few times, no one at the VA has really dealt with me. And I don't know the reason behind it. I don't know that if they feel like that's not the issue, but--

ROWELL: It doesn't feel visible enough.

BOWERS-WINTERS: And that I'm okay or I don't know. I really-- I really don't understand or know. I just know that I need help bursting this little bubble 02:36:00that I'm in, that I feel like I'm in. You know, whatever it takes. You know, I want to do that. And a lot of times we can help others but can't help ourselves as well. We can, you know, when someone's talking to us, we can see some things and we can address some things and say, "Have you tried this? Have you tried that? Would you like to try this?" Or you know, "Well, what happened with this or what happened with that?" And, you know, and so we're better able to help others than ourselves sometimes. I question myself a lot. I ask myself where I'm 02:37:00at because I don't believe in blaming others for my situation today. The past is the past. It's over and it's done with, and there's nothing I can do about the past, even yesterday or the last moment. The last five minutes. There's nothing I can do about that. What can I do in this moment? What can I do going forward? That's my belief system. So, I'm not very understanding of where I'm at and why things still bother me. You know, just like I was mentioning earlier, looking at the pictures and how happy my first husband and I were in those pictures. I mean, genuine joy. Genuine. Just beautifulness. Where is the-- where did the disconnect come in? Where did we part ways? Why wasn't the communication there? 02:38:00You know, I don't understand it. I don't get it at all. And it makes me really sad. And I'm not blaming him completely. I know I've made mistakes as well as he did, you know. I know it's not just one sided. But one thing's for certain. I know that I attempted to get the help that was needed for our marriage. I attempted to communicate. I attempted to go to a counselor. I attempted these things to try to make it work. And he just dismissed it. That's the difference.

ROWELL: It seems you're doing that for yourself as well.

BOWERS-WINTERS: So, I did the best that I could to advocate for my marriage. And it didn't work. In every case. All three marriages. I did what I could to 02:39:00advocate, and it didn't work. And I'm not going to try to force someone to stay in something or do something. I can't anyways because it's not going to work. So, I just want to live a healthy, normal life. I overeat because, you know, food tastes good and it's available. It does what I want it to. You know, it tastes good. [Laughs] It satisfies my stomach. [Laughs]

ROWELL: Simple in a complex situation.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Right. I know what to expect from that food. Especially ice cream [laughs] and popcorn. My kids get on me about popcorn because that would be my dinner. And they were like, "Mom, you're not eating popcorn for dinner." [Laughs] Well, you're going to have to do something about that. So, they do get 02:40:00on me because I will eat popcorn for dinner or something, you know? But I'm trying to do better because my cholesterol level stays high. And I do want to live long enough to see my grand-- great grandbaby and see some more grandbabies. And to be able to spend time with the ones I do have. So, I want to do better. And so, I want to learn to eat-- eat better. I took cooking classes through the VA and that was fun. And that was nice, but not very convenient. So, but it had me-- it caused me to think about healthy meals and things that are easy to prepare and taste good. So, um, keeping that in mind and experimenting with other things.

ROWELL: Speaking of your-- your kids, actually, um, would you mind talking a bit about the experience, um, of two of your-- two of your sons, uh, entering the military, one of them still in, one of them now out as a veteran also?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes. My oldest son was, well, both-- both of them were in, um, Junior ROTC in high school. And, um, but the oldest one went into the Army National Guard and then the Army Reserves. And the six to eight years, I can't remember which, but had the opportunity to go to Europe. Go to Fort McCoy here quite a bit. He started out in Oklahoma and then he transferred up here. So, then he gave it up. My son under him, he is in the United States Army. Of 02:42:00course, he went to college and became an officer. So, just as he was graduating high school and he was in Army National Guard and he was a medic. [Inaudible] He's like, "Mom, I don't know if I'm going to get to go to college. They're going to need-- there's six of us and they're going to need four of us to go somewhere." I said, "Well, you're-- you're going to college. It's not going to be you. You're going to college." He was like, "Well, mom", blah blah blah blah blah. "But you're going to college." And he said, "Well, mom, I know where I'm going. If, you know, something should happen, I know where I'm going. So, it's okay". That blessed my heart, but I said, "You're not going. You're going to college." Sure enough, I got the phone call from him. He said, "Well, mom, they didn't choose me." I said, "I know." [Laughs] "You're going to college." 02:43:00[Laughs] So, he went to Cameron University, and he was commissioned an officer in the United States Army. And he is currently a major and working on becoming a lieutenant colonel. And I will be spending Thanksgiving with him. [Laughs]

ROWELL: That's great. What does that mean to you, being-- given your veteran experience?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I am-- I'm really proud. Really proud of both of them. Both of them. And especially him, because he works very hard. He's still in the medical field. He's the hospital administrator and works very hard. Takes it very seriously. He married a nurse who is now a doctor. And I'm very proud of both of them and how well they're doing and what a great parents they are to my grandchildren. And I'm grateful that they want me to be a part of their lives 02:44:00every Thanksgiving. That's my designated times spending with them. Thanksgiving every year. So, no matter where they're at, where they're stationed, I'm there for Thanksgiving. So, I'm very proud. Very, very proud of them. And he's gotten lots of this escalates throughout his career because he takes it very, very seriously.

ROWELL: And he's being recognized for it.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yes, he's being recognized for it. And I'm glad. And he tells me, "Mom, you should have stayed in and retired." "Well, son. If I could have, I would have."

ROWELL: So, thinking about, um, young women maybe today who might be considering joining the military or the Army specifically, um, would you have anything 02:45:00specific to say to them?

BOWERS-WINTERS: I would say, go in with your eyes wide open and get as much information as you can ahead of time before making that decision. I think that military service has great rewards. You know, you can learn a lot. It helps you to grow, helps you to mature and just be careful. Just be careful. Be careful who you make friends with. These days, I don't advise walking or going anywhere alone. You know, to always be partnered up. And I'm told that pretty much, especially when you're overseas, that they tell you to-- go into--

ROWELL: Buddy system.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Yeah, that buddy system. But no matter where you are, I believe that that belief system should be in play at all times. But just go in with your eyes wide open and do your research before hand. But I do think that the military is a great start of a person's life. I think the officer way is the best way [laughs].

ROWELL: Definitely.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Go to college first. Go to college first. [Laughs] But--

ROWELL: Probably some more benefits, too.

BOWERS-WINTERS: Right. Right, exactly. Great benefits. So, yes, but if you need to go in as an enlisted person, I would very much recommend it. Just do it with your eyes wide open.

ROWELL: Thank you for sharing that. Um, is there anything that we did not yet cover today that you would like to talk about?

BOWERS-WINTERS: Not that I can think of that at this moment.

ROWELL: All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Dawn. This concludes the interview with Dawn Lenee Bowers-Winters on October 25th, 2022.