Oral History Interview with Alice Wilson

[Interview Begins]

SPRAGUE: Today is October 28th, 2022. This is an interview with Alice Wilson, who served in the Army National Guard from 1993 to 1999. Alice entered the service as Rebecca Alice Melvina Wilson.

WILSON: Melvina. [gives different pronunciation]

SPRAGUE: Melvina, sorry.

WILSON: Everybody says it wrong. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Okay. Melvina. Okay, sorry.

WILSON: No, it's okay. It's not a common name, so.

SPRAGUE: Okay. But normally you just go by Alice, correct?

WILSON: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, this interview is being conducted by Luke Sprague at the Milwaukee Central Library for the I Am Not Invisible Women's History Project for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else is present in the interview. Okay, Alice, where did you grow up?

WILSON: I grew up in Marion, Indiana.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And what was that like?

WILSON: [Laughs] I guess there was some good, some bad. You know, it's a small 00:01:00town, about 20-ish, 30,000 people, something like that. So, the good parts were not having some of the problems that you have in bigger cities. There's fewer people, so not as much crime. Everybody, I mean, it wasn't Mayberry small, but it was small enough that everybody kind of at least knew of your family if they didn't know you directly. So, again, even saying that, that sort of can be a double-edged sword, because people can get a little in your business. [laughs] But there's this sense of community and there were things about growing up there that kind of directed me on the path that I ended up on that I'm still on today. 00:02:00Like with theater, for example, there's a wonderful community theater called Marion Civic Theatre that I was heavily involved in from middle school all the way on through high school. And it kind of got me on the theater path. So, that's one thing that was great about growing up there.

SPRAGUE: We're going to come back to the theatre thing, I think.

WILSON: Okay, yeah, I'll get off of my tangent. Sorry. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: No, that's good. That's perfectly fine. What did your family do there?

WILSON: My dad worked in a factory, actually, in Gas City, which is just another really small town not too far away. It was-- gosh, it went through multiple incarnations. I can't even remember all the names. The oldest one, I think, that I recall, it was called Owens-Illinois or something like that. And then it was 00:03:00like, Georgia Pacific, I believe. Anyway, it was a box plant. Or as my dad would always get prickly about and say, "No, it's corrugated paper." [laughs] So, he was a custodian there for many years. Oh, and my mom was a homemaker. She didn't work outside the home.

SPRAGUE: And which schools did you attend?

WILSON: Elementary school was Francis Slocum. Middle School was McCullough, and high school was Marion High School.

SPRAGUE: And tell me a little bit about developing your theater interest in school.

WILSON: I believe where it pretty much started, I mean, I think I did a couple of small play or something here and there in elementary school, but then I was 00:04:00still really shy, believe it or not. I know anybody that knows me well now will hear that and be like, yeah, whatever. But no, I was tragically, tragically shy when I was little, but when I was about 12 or 13, I started participating in the Marion Easter pageant. A lot of people from the area might be familiar with that. It's this beautiful pageant that happens Easter Sunday morning. People come from all over the tri-state area to to attend it. So, I was in that for several years. I was a garland girl and various other things. And I met this this boy named Jason Bushman, who just pretty much immediately became my best friend. And he had already been doing a lot of plays and things with Marion Civic Theatre. So, he encouraged me to get involved. And I did. I started doing little things, helping out with props and things, and I started being an extra, 00:05:00like a towns person or that sort of thing in productions. And so then by the time I got into high school, I just kept being involved with them and also was in all the productions that the high school did. Yeah. And I totally just derailed there. I forget what your question actually was. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: That's okay. If we could, move your microphone away from you just a little bit.

WILSON: Yep.

SPRAGUE: So-- yep. Maybe even--

WILSON: A little more?

SPRAGUE: Yeah, a little more. There we go. Okay. Let's tip it like this a little bit so we're not blocking you, blocking you in the shot. Okay. So, how did you start thinking about being in the military?

WILSON: Oh, so I joined when I was still in high school. To be perfectly frank, 00:06:00I was kind of looking for a way to get out of Indiana. I knew from a pretty young age, from middle school, that I didn't want to stay there. They're just, you know, in a small town and everything, there's only so much opportunity. And my best friend that I had mentioned, by the time we were in high school, he had-- like, our junior year, he'd gone out to New York City and I thought about following him but I don't-- I was just, I was a little scared of that and a little trepidatious about that and still didn't have the confidence to do that. So, I knew I wanted to go to school for theater, but I really didn't have any idea where I wanted to go. And so, I don't know. The recruiters and stuff came to the school and, you know, somehow they convinced me that while they told me about getting money for school, for college and all that stuff, and my parents 00:07:00were very much-- my parents didn't have a lot of education. So, they were always, you know, college, college, college, college. You know, they really, really pushed it. And so, it just seemed like the thing to do. So. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: So, what was their opinion or thought when you said, "I'm going to join the military for college?"

WILSON: They actually supported it. I mean, if I remember correctly, it was even partly their idea. So, they were completely-- they were all for it.

SPRAGUE: So, did you enlist while you were still in high school or after high school?

WILSON: When I was still. I believe I signed on the dotted line along with my parents while I was still in high school. And then I think I started going to drills-- gosh, my first few drills, like before I moved to Wisconsin, because I 00:08:00was still in Indiana, they were in Indianapolis. And I honestly, it's been so long ago [laughs] that I honestly can't remember if I was still in high school or if I had just graduated. Because I believe I turned 18 while I was still in high school. So, I think I was still in-- I think it was my senior year, I think, when I maybe started going to drills.

SPRAGUE: And when did you attend basic training?

WILSON: So, I graduated high school in June of '93, and then I think it was October that same year, October of '93, when I shipped off to basic training. And that was from like, October to December.

SPRAGUE: You had said you had attended drills in Indianapolis before going to basic?

WILSON: Yes.

SPRAGUE: What was that like having not gone through basic but going to drill?

WILSON: Honestly, [laughs] I barely remember it. Again, it was so long ago and I was so young and I think I was excited. I think I was a little bit nervous. If I remember correctly, too, it really was a lot of just paperwork and sitting around and hurry up and wait. You know, there wasn't a lot of training or anything involved at drills. It basically was just kind of me waiting to head off to basic training.

SPRAGUE: And was that-- did you say the National Guard or was it a reserve unit?

WILSON: National Guard.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, you get to boot camp, you get down to South Carolina. October, it sounds like October of '93. Tell me about that a little bit in terms 00:10:00of what that experience was like.

WILSON: It was good for me. It definitely whipped me into shape because I was not in great shape when I first went down there. You know, I was never a good runner, like a good long-distance runner. And I really struggled with the mile run figure or I forgot what it was. [laughs] So, yeah, I really had to get whipped into shape. And the, you know, the drill sergeants did their job. And I think when I went back home to Indiana to visit between boot camp and AIT, I think I had-- either I can't remember if I'd lost 20 pounds or gained 20 pounds. I think I might have gained 20 pounds, but it was like all muscle. So, I looked much trimmer and fit and muscular because I got, you know, they did their job. They physically whipped me into shape. Mentally it was really hard because, you 00:11:00know, you being a veteran yourself, you know, they try to just tear you down to nothing and then build you back up. So, because I was so young too, it was difficult. You know, I remember nights crying in my bed [laughs], I'm going to be honest, you know, it was scary. Other than a trip when I was much younger to the Bahamas, which was just for, I don't know, a couple of weeks or something, and my mom was on that trip, other than that, that was the longest I had been away from home, away from my friends, away from my family. So, it was really a really big mixed bag of emotions from what I remember.

SPRAGUE: Who are some of the people that you remember from boot camp?

WILSON: Oh, man. You know, some of them, I can picture their faces, some of them, like it was yesterday, but I'm really not always good with names. I remember one girl being from-- it was from somewhere in Alabama. She was African American woman and she had a real, you know, real strong Southern twang. I remember a drill sergeant, and I believe it was-- yeah, I'm pretty sure it was at boot camp, not AIT. Drill Sergeant Lehman. He was like a cartoon character. He was real tall, really, really thin. He was from some itty-bitty little town 00:13:00in Texas. [in Southern accent] So, we have this big accent, you know, sounded like this. [stopped accent] And when he would call cadence, he chewed tobacco, and he would call cadence and spit like right on the beat, like wouldn't lose-- He'd be like, [in Southern accent] "Your left, your left, your left, right up [spits], pick it up, drive on." [laughs] You know, [laughs] that was just-- so, that's one of my biggest memories 'cause he was just-- he really was like a cartoon character. It was like some drill sergeant character out of a movie. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Any other experiences with drill sergeants at basic that you care to remember? [laughs]

WILSON: Oh, there were some that were pretty-- they were pretty-- well, actually, the really icky one I'm thinking of I think was AIT. Or was it boot camp? You know, again, sometimes I hardly remember what I had for breakfast alone something from 30 years ago. But I think it was at boot camp. There was 00:14:00this one drill sergeant who just, he just didn't think women belonged in the military. And he would put us in formation and say all kinds of real nasty stuff, like, can I say vulgar things?

SPRAGUE: You can. Absolutely.

WILSON: Like, he would literally put us in formation and say that the Army-- there was no, what was it he would say? There was no place for a pussy in the Army. Like, he would yell that at us. Yeah. I don't know if he really-- well, he probably really didn't think that, but I think he was also trying to you know, he was trying to do exactly what he expected. He was trying to get some of us to cry or whatever. And when he would say stuff like that, honestly, I would just like laugh because it was so crazy, you know? But some gals would start crying or whatever. And it's like, stop. That's exactly what he wants. That's what he thinks of women. That's what he thinks they're going to do. And so you do that 00:15:00and you're just proving him right, you know? [laughs] So, yeah, that was pretty-- that's pretty funky. Yeah. I don't know if stuff like that still goes on or not, but it sure did back in the '90s. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: I've got to ask, given down through the years there's been some incidents that have happened with drill sergeants. Was there any harassment at all of trainees?

WILSON: Not-- aside from that sort of thing, I didn't experience anything. They would just tease me. I can't remember if it started at basic training or AIT, but I remember getting called Hollywood because I'd smile and grin a lot when they were yelling and stuff because I just thought it was funny. [laughs] So, they started calling me-- I got called Private Hollywood here and there. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Was your training co-ed with males or was it separate?

WILSON: It was separate. At bootcamp it was separate, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Were you--

WILSON: Yeah. If we even got, like, if there were other-- what did they call the guys? Joes, I think is what they call the male soldiers and they referred to us as Molly's, I think it was. And if there were some Joes out marching around, they would yell at us and say to stop looking at them and stuff like that. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Oh, really? [Wilson laughs] Okay. So, they were--

WILSON: Because they were there on base, it's just we were kept apart, you know?

SPRAGUE: Yeah. And the women were known as Molly's and the men were known as--

WILSON: Joes.

SPRAGUE: Joes.

WILSON: I think that's what it was, if I remember right. I think that's what some of the drill sergeants referred to us as. Yeah. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Were the males in the same company or platoon or just a completely different unit?

WILSON: God, you know, again, I just-- I remember them, their presence, being 00:17:00there but I don't remember. Probably a separate company, at least, I think.

SPRAGUE: Were you in the old or the newer barracks at Fort Jackson?

WILSON: Oh, probably the older ones, I guess.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Like World War Two, maybe, or made out of wood and the two story or--

WILSON: Yeah, two stories. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Okay. At basic, did you have any time for fun at basic at all?

WILSON: I don't think so. I don't remember there being any. I remember some fun stuff that we did at AIT, but at basic, it was pretty much just getting woken up at whatever ungodly hour it was, like four a.m. or something like that, and going and doing all the PT and running and whatnot, and then coming back to the 00:18:00chow hall and having to eat like you've never eaten before because if you didn't, I mean, it was, I think literally we had to eat in like ten minutes or something, fifteen minutes maybe. I mean, you had to shovel it in and then it was off to to go clean the barracks and make sure that was okay for inspection. And then the whatever training we were doing that day, whether it was the medical things or weapons training or what have you.

SPRAGUE: Did you have any experience with people from other parts of the country that sticks out in your mind?

WILSON: Just like I said before, I remember this one gal from being from some small town in Alabama. I just remember her thick sort of twang. There was a gal from I want to say somewhere, like some rougher part of New York. New York or 00:19:00New Jersey. And she had like, an attitude to go with it, you know, kind of thing. Yeah, that's about it. Like I said, I have for whatever reason, maybe because it was a little longer and got to know people better. I have more memories from AIT really than, you know, boot camp was-- basic training was so fast and furious. It was just-- and you're so stressed out, you know, you're sleep deprived, you're away from home. A lot of cases, you know, if you're young like I was, away from home for the first time. So, it really is just kind of a blur, you know?

SPRAGUE: Out of that blur, do you happen to remember any particular training thing that sticks out in your mind? Like sometimes they have you do a slide for 00:20:00life or--

WILSON: Oh my god, the gas chamber, ugh. Oh my god, the gas chamber was awful. So, they took a video when we were there. They took videos of training and somewhere I have a VHS of things and there's a VHS of me stumbling out of the gas chamber, just puking up, you know, looked like the stuff the girl picks up in The Exorcist. It's just this green [Sprague laughs], you know, like every liquid in your body that can come out of a hole is coming out, like, I mean, I don't think I was peeing myself, but my nose was running, my eyes were watering. I was vomiting, like, it was terrifying. I thought I was going to die. And I think I, you know, they make you do the things [flapping outstretched arms up and down] with your arms like this and say your Social Security number or something. And I was like, doing that. I think I stumbled over by a tree and 00:21:00continued to vomit. [Sprague laughs] It's terrible. So, yeah, that's like, the one that really-- that's the main one that sticks out in my mind.

SPRAGUE: You have a chicken wing thing, really, I remember that. Yeah. And I also remember them talking about taping it and I'm thinking--

WILSON: You're like, why? [Sprague and Wilson laugh] Exactly. But then once, you know, I've got to find that VHS, I really should have it put on a DVD or something so it lasts. Yeah, it's got to be home somewhere in a box. It'd be funny to go back and watch it again. Oh, I just thought of another memory that doesn't really involve training that was kind of cool. They were filming a Danny DeVito movie when I was there. What was it called-- Renaissance Man, I think it was called. And so one day in the chow hall, there he is, you know, six, eight 00:22:00feet in front of us, in line with other people from the movie. And I remember the drill sergeants yelling at us not to get close, not to say anything to him, not to, you know. So here's me, this young actor is freaking out like, oh my god, there's Danny DeVito, oh my god, you know, and I can't do or say anything. So, that really sticks out in my mind.

SPRAGUE: Was Danny DeVito eating in your chow hall?

WILSON: I think so, if I remember right. Yeah, he was in line to get food. Yeah. I think they came through and ate the food. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

WILSON: Because it was a military movie.

SPRAGUE: Okay. I'm just thinking back on my chow hall days, I'm thinking, yeah, today it's probably okay. It's not as bad as it was, but I don't ever think about a chow hall like, yes, I want to go eat that.

WILSON: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Well, they may have done that as part of their 00:23:00training for the film, you know, just experience it and see what it was like because it was a military movie. I think it's a comedic military movie, but still.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Okay. Any other memories about Fort Jackson?

WILSON: Not really. I mean, I remember getting cattle herded on to the bus, you know, to get the bus with the blackened windows to get driven in. I guess that's so you can't-- if you try to leave, you wouldn't know where to go? [laughs] Because you driven in there on this bus with blackened windows. You don't even know where you are. Like, I couldn't even tell you where Fort Jackson is in South Carolina. Like, I haven't even been to South Carolina since that. So, that's my only experience with South Carolina. And so I, yeah, I couldn't even tell you where it is, what city it's near. I have no idea. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: But you are, I would say, fortunate enough to be there in October through about when?

WILSON: December. So, I got the best of both worlds. It was really hot, I remember, when I first got there. I think my first experience with fire ants was there. I had kitchen prep duty and I had to take out the garbage and I flung the garbage bag into the dumpster and all of a sudden my hands was burning and I look and these ants, fire ants were crawling on me and I'm swishing them off. And then by the end in December, it got cold, you know, probably wasn't Wisconsin cold, but cold enough that it was uncomfortable. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: And for the Wisconsinites who don't know, what's the downside to the fire ants?

WILSON: I just remember that they burn really bad.

SPRAGUE: They bite, yeah.

WILSON: They bite or sting or something, right? Because my hand was like, on fire. It was all red after I brushed them off. And they get you right away, they 00:25:00just-- that's why they call them fire ants. Because it feels like your skin's on fire. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Having grown up in Wisconsin and served in Georgia, I've been with fire ants, too.

WILSON: Oh, okay. Yeah, they're not fun. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: So, you finish boot camp. You traveled to Fort Sam Houston.

WILSON: Mm-hm.

SPRAGUE: Tell me about-- how did you get there, first of all?

WILSON: I believe I flew because I said between-- I don't remember the exact date I was done with boot camp. I think it was right before the holidays, so I got to go home for a few days right around Christmas or so. And then it was probably January, I want to say. Again, the exact dates, I couldn't tell you, 00:26:00but yeah, so I think I probably-- well, I know I flew, but I can't remember if I probably flew, I'm guessing from Indianapolis to San Antonio, I think.

SPRAGUE: And you had chosen to be a behavioral specialist?

WILSON: Yeah. Behavioral science specialist.

SPRAGUE: Behavioral science specialist.

WILSON: Yeah. It's like the equivalent of a therapist or a psychologist, A civilian therapist or psychologist. So, the way it was back then is there were two different psych MOS's. For anybody that's listening doesn't know what that, MOS stands for military occupational specialties. So, that's a fancy term for what your job is in the military. So, back then, there were two psych ones. There was a 91 Golf, which was a behavioral science specialist, which is what I 00:27:00was. And then there were 91 Foxtrots. And if I remember correctly, the only difference was that the Foxtrots could write prescriptions for medications and behavioral science specialists, the Golfs, we couldn't. And so, like, if you were counseling somebody and thought they could use their benefit for medication, then you have to send them to a Foxtrot. So the Foxtrots were more like psychiatrists. I believe after I was done, some time in the early 2000s I think it was when they really started downsizing things. I think they combined them and I believe it's called 91 X-ray now. I don't know what the rest of what they're actually called, but I think that's the call number, if you will, 91 X-ray.

SPRAGUE: What made you choose to pick that MOS?

WILSON: Honestly, when the recruiter was listing off the different things, you 00:28:00know, and asking what my interests were, and I'm like, oh, theater and, you know, it was kind of really the only thing that, you know, I didn't want to be a, you know, somebody who fixes tanks or, you know, it was just-- it sounded like really that I wasn't given any creative options really. I mean, I was into photography and stuff. I would think that I could have been a photographer or something, but I just don't recall that option being presented to me. But I had been interested in psychology. I had a class or two of psychology in high school and I really enjoyed it. So, that's what I went with.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Tell me about Drill Sergeant Queen.

WILSON: Oh, yeah, that was at AIT. We called her Drill Sergeant Queen. I don't 00:29:00even remember what her actual name was, but she allowed us to call her Drill Sergeant Queen. She kind of looked like Queen Latifah, and she sang cadences with this incredible voice. So, yeah. So, that's why we called her Drill Sergeant Queen. She was awesome. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Any other interesting drill sergeants?

WILSON: Oh, man. Drill Sergeant Patina, I think, was his name. He was Puerto Rican, I believe. And he was just funny. I'm not going to try to do his accent yet, but he had this great Puerto Rican accent and he sort of did this thing with his head like this when he talked to emphasize everything he said. [laughs] It was just-- it was funny. Again, some of these folks were just-- they were like movie characters, you know.

SPRAGUE: Do you think that the drill sergeants as movie characters, that had any 00:30:00play with your wanting to be in theater or thinking about them as characters?

WILSON: Well, I think because I, you know, I had already been doing theater, so I was very much had a, you know, actors mind already. So, and I've always been into movies and loved movies. So, I think my interest in those things probably made me have that perspective about them.

SPRAGUE: Yeah, maybe. Did you see them like putting on roles as the drill sergeant?

WILSON: I would think so, yeah. I'm guessing that none of these folks go home and act like that. You know, I mean, maybe they do. Maybe Drill Sergeant Patina, if he had, like, you know, kids back then, maybe he goes home and yells at his kids like that. Maybe he does that, you know? [laughs] I mean, I'm sure there were aspects or parts to their personalities that were like that. But I mean, 00:31:00drill sergeants really are a character. They really have to put on this, you know, they're doing that whole yelling at you, stern. They're not there to be your friend. They're there to train you, get you ready for your job and get you ready to ship off to war, if that's what you end up having to do, you know. They're not going to do you any favors by being soft on you or being your buddy, you know.

SPRAGUE: What were some of the friends that you remember from AIT?

WILSON: Well, Tiffany Koehler, who interestingly enough is the one who brought up, I believe, this I Am Not Invisible project to Wisconsin. She was also a 91 Golf and we had these psych classes together. So yeah, we just, you know, became really close and especially at the time, we were both young. Well, she was a 00:32:00little older than I. I was like, nineteen in AIT and she was 24, 25, I think. She's about five years older, five or so years older than me, but we just have similar goofy, silly personalities and so we bonded and became really close. Yeah, she's actually the reason that I ended up in Wisconsin.

SPRAGUE: So, if you could, maybe flesh that out a little bit more about your connections with Tiff and coming to Wisconsin.

WILSON: Yeah, so, we became really good friends. And if you recall, before I was saying I knew I wanted to go to college. I hadn't really decided where I wanted to go. I knew I wanted to get away from Indiana, but I just really wasn't sure where I was going to go. And she was-- Tiffany grew up in Shorewood, which if 00:33:00everybody doesn't know, it's like a little suburb of Milwaukee. And she was talking up Milwaukee and saying, "You really should come and visit. I really think you would like it." You know, and so that's exactly what happened. And after we were done with our AIT later that summer, I went back home to Indiana briefly, I think, and then I packed some stuff and I came to Milwaukee and I actually stayed with her and her mom. She was living with her mom at the time, since she had just got back from AIT, you know, she never owned place yet. So, I stayed with her and her mom, I think, for a couple of weeks or so. And she showed me around the city and I toured UW-M and I really liked it. I thought the lake was really amazing. And so, yeah, I decided to go to UW-M for college and that's what I did. And the rest is history. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: And the first time you met Tiffany was at AIT, then?

WILSON: Yes.

SPRAGUE: Okay. How did you come to the conversation about Wisconsin at AIT or how did--

WILSON: I probably just, you know, talking about where, you know, because you have these conversations about, oh, where are you from? Where are you from? Da, da, da, da, da, you know, what are you going to do after this? And, you know, probably because of me saying that I, you know, hadn't decided where to go to college yet and that sort of thing. And so, she probably started talking about UW-M and things just progressed like that.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

WILSON: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: So at AIT, what other experiences that you have there stick out in your head?

WILSON: I don't know. I guess just the classes, I remember one of our instructors for one of our psych classes, Sergeant Lada I think was his name. I 00:35:00remember him being like, this sandy, red-headed guy with really big glasses. The BCGs, as we called them.

SPRAGUE: Now, for the--

WILSON: You know what that stands for, right?

SPRAGUE: Yes, I do. And you're more than-- please let the civilians know what those are.

WILSON: BCGs, that's what we called the glasses that you were issued in the military. It stands for birth control glasses because they're so hideous. They're just-- they're awful. Just these big square plastic frames. They're just, they're hideous. So, yeah, birth control glasses. Anyway, so he had a big chunky pair of those. And so, again, you know, I was nineteen then. I was very fun loving, very silly. I like to joke around a lot. But I asked a question one day. We were talking about, you know, all these psychological disorders and 00:36:00things like that. And I raised my hand, and I wasn't kidding, I think he thought I was joking. But we were talking about multiple personalities and things like that. And I raised my hand and I asked if it was possible for one or more of someone's personalities, who's suffering from multiples, to have multiple personalities. And he was like, he told me too-- he said, "Shut up, Wilson." I was like, what? I'm serious. And he just-- he never answered my question. And I thought it was a legitimate question, but because I did joke around a lot and he just thought I was playing around. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Any other friends that you remember from AIT?

WILSON: There's this other soldier who's in our class that always stood out in my mind. His name was Wong. I don't remember his first name because, you know, 00:37:00you call everybody by their last names so you just remember their last names. This guy named Wong, he was interesting because he was Chinese, but he was like, 6'4" or so and grew up in England. So, he had a British accent.

SPRAGUE: Oh, wow. Okay.

WILSON: You know how often you come across, first of all, a Chinese man who's six foot four and then you hear him speak the first time and he's got a British accent. So, I'll never forget him. He had a very, very serious demeanor. I remember that. So, quite the opposite of myself back then.

SPRAGUE: Any time for fun at AIT?

WILSON: Oh, yeah. I remember we formed a-- they had softball and I remember being on a softball team and playing softball for fun on occasion. There was 00:38:00also-- there was a place on base called the Hacienda that I remember where you could go and get snacks, and they would show movies. They had movie nights on a projector and stuff like that. So yeah, there was a lot of time for fun. Though sometimes you got fun-- your fun will get taken away if somebody would do something, you know, asinine because then, you know how it is in the military, one person does something and you all get in trouble because it's that, again it's that group thing. They're trying to make you tight knit so that you're willing to take a bullet for this person next to you. And that's how they do it, you know. It's a big psychological mind game. There was also-- you could sometimes get a weekend pass to go off base. So, yeah, there were times I would go into San Antonio and go to the beautiful river walk that I remember them 00:39:00having down there. When my parents came to visit me one weekend when I was down there and I remember walking along the river walk with them. I'd go to some nightclubs stuff and party. Went to what I affectionately call Corpus Crispy one weekend, I believe, with Tiffany Koehler. I don't know if I should be admitting this [laughs] here, but I will. I had a little too much to drink, and I shouldn't even have been doing that because I was nineteen. Fell asleep on the beach and woke up pretty much the color of my sweater right now. Yeah, I got a really nasty sunburn, so yeah. I always call it Corpus Crispy now [Sprague laughs] instead in Corpus Christi. Yeah. [Sprague and Wilson laugh]

SPRAGUE: So, did you train with men at that time or were they still segregated in terms of the training?

WILSON: No, we were together in terms of the training at that point. Yeah. Our classes were male and female. I think our-- I don't remember if our P-- our PT was separate. Yeah. Our runs and stuff like that I believe were separate. I mean, we'd run right past companies of male soldiers and stuff like that, but I think our PT was separate.

SPRAGUE: Do you think that's interesting how things changed over time with the Army where they separate and then eventually-- do you have any thoughts on that?

WILSON: Yeah, I hear now that they're co-ed, even with like, the barracks and stuff. I think that's a terrible idea if you want to want me to be perfectly 00:41:00honest. I mean, there was enough stuff going on. I mean, there were at least a couple gals that I remember when I was at AIT that went home pregnant. You know? So, I mean, I guess if people really want to do that stuff, they're going to sneak and do it because that's what happened even when they were separated. But I think putting them together is just inviting more problems, you know? And like, if you're-- like, I think about, you know, again, I was nineteen when I was there, and had I been in the barracks with male soldiers, I would have been so distracted. And so, you know what I mean? I think it would have been really difficult, especially at that age, to focus on my training and everything with there being male soldiers around as well.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

WILSON: Yeah, I just think it's a really bad idea. I don't know. I'm not there 00:42:00to experience, so maybe it's fine, but it just sounds like it's not, like, a good idea, in my opinion.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Anything else with AIT?

WILSON: I enjoyed it immensely. I mean, again, I'm sure there were times when I probably missed home and everything. Again, you know, I was young and away from home for a really long time and gosh, I can't even remember exactly how long AIT was. It was a pretty long one because it was medical and psych. It was one of the-- one of, if not the longest AIT, the type of training that it was. It was several months long. I just can't remember exactly how long. And no, you know, 00:43:00it was it was an interesting experience. Pretty volatile time in my life. You know, I was coming from-- my home life was a little wonky. I won't even get into all that. But yeah, it was an interesting time, to say the least. But it certainly, you know, had a hand in shaping who I am now and what I went on to do and things like that.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What happens next after AIT?

WILSON: Well, I think I-- like I said, I went back home to Indiana briefly. Very briefly. And then I packed some things and I went to-- came here to Wisconsin to visit Koehler, Tiffany, and just fell in love with Milwaukee. I mean, I loved 00:44:00the lake. I loved the people. The idea of being in a bigger city excited me, and I guess it didn't-- it was a little scary at first because it was, you know, Milwaukee was huge to me, coming from a town of 20,000 people to 600,000 people. But it wasn't as scary and overwhelming, I think, as it would have been had I'd gone to New York like I was thinking at one time that I might do, like when I was still in high school. So, yeah. So, I came here and started going to college and doing theater here.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. So, what guard reserve unit did you join when you got here?

WILSON: It was the 92nd Battalion. I believe it's called the Red Arrow Unit.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

WILSON: Over on Richardson Capital. I think it's closed now or part of it 00:45:00closed. It also was an MP unit that-- oh, for civilians, the MPs are military police. So, they were out of that unit as well.

SPRAGUE: One of the questions I had for you, you had mentioned the 92nd was the only-- I was trying to come up with the unit name and the only thing I could find was the 132nd Brigade Support Battalion with Charlie Company out of Milwaukee.

WILSON: Okay, maybe that was it then. For some reason I thought it was the 92nd-something.

SPRAGUE: And Tiff, was Tiffany in your company?

WILSON: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, that would have-- yeah.

WILSON: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Based on her oral history interview, she talks about the 132nd Charlie Med.

WILSON: Okay. So, I don't know where I got 92nd from. [laughs] Honestly, again, it's been so long ago. I have no idea where that number came from. So, yeah, go 00:46:00with hers, then. That's probably correct. I just-- yeah, because we were in the same unit.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Yeah, I was just curious more than anything, because I couldn't find a unit and I was like, huh.

WILSON: Yeah. I just know it's called the Red Arrow Unit.

SPRAGUE: Yup. That supports the 32nd Infantry Brigade. Yup. Now it's a Brigade Combat Support team.

WILSON: Okay.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, what was that like? Coming back and being in that guard unit with Tiffany?

WILSON: It was interesting. Again, you know, I was young and there were some shenanigans and things like that, which I won't get into. Just stupid things you do when you're, you know, nineteen, twenty, twenty-one. I actually up and moved like in-- several years later, like a few years after. I officially moved here to Milwaukee in the summer of '94, right after AIT. So, I think it was August, I 00:47:00officially moved here. And then in '98, I think it was Tiffany and myself and another friend of mine from back in Indiana. We just up and moved to Orlando on a whim because we all were like, "We hate the winter, let's get out of here." You know? And I hadn't been to Orlando since I was like, five or something, you know. I think my parents took me to Disney World and then we all hated it. [laughs] I was only down there nine months before I came back to Milwaukee. Tiffany stayed down there, I think, a little bit longer before she came back. But, yeah.

SPRAGUE: So, tell me a little bit about-- so, at that point, you probably got back to UW-M and kept working--

WILSON: Yeah, yeah, I came back and finally got back into school. And so, so yeah, I kind of took some time off of school when I did that move and all of that and things were crazy and yeah. It took me forever to finish school. I started going I think in '96, like part time, and then I would stop and work a little and screw around and then I'd go back and then I, you know. I didn't graduate until 2004, which was kind of crazy. I was on the ten-year plan or whatever. Twelve-year plan.

SPRAGUE: During this time, you stayed in the same National Guard unit?

WILSON: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: What experiences did you have during drill or even annual training? What were some that stick out?

WILSON: Oh, god. Fort McCoy. Oh, I don't wish that on anybody. [laughs] You know, I remember some of the times we went there was so bloody cold and, you know, doing the thing where you had to, you know, set up your tents and 00:49:00everything in the middle of the night. Can't see diddly squat, you know, and you're-- and it's cold and you're sleeping on the ground in a tent, you know. Again, I feel bad for complaining about that stuff, 'cause I know people that have, you know, soldiers that have gone to war experienced way worse. So it's like, oh, boo hoo, you know? But, yeah. Fort McCoy was not-- [laughs] Fort McCoy was not Disneyland.

SPRAGUE: Did you have any annual trainings at other locations?

WILSON: Not that I recall. I think Fort McCoy was where we always did, what's that they call it? Bivouac, I think they call it. I think that's where we always did it.

SPRAGUE: So, your medical company and your bivouac, what did that look like at Fort McCoy? So, tents. Tell me, what--

WILSON: We set up tents and do, you know, just medical training like we had to 00:50:00do at boot camp and AIT and there we always had to do, like, the basic medical stuff too, like, we had to learn to treat wounds and treat for battle shock, you know, all the physical things prior to psych things, you know, 'cause if you are in the middle of a conflict, you can't, you have somebody just got blown apart, you can't jump in with the psych stuff. You got to take care of their physical being first and then deal with the other things.

SPRAGUE: I'm interested in the psych part of this, just from personal lack of experience in the military and understanding how that would play out in action.

WILSON: Yeah, I mean, I never really ended up doing much because I've just, you know, if I'd been active Army, I would have done more with it. But, yeah, you 00:51:00know, had I been active, I would have been-- is that comparable to like a civilian psychotherapist or a therapist, you know, talk therapist sort of thing? So, I would have been counseling and that sort of thing, but really, because I never did get sent anywhere, a lot of it was more ended up just being focused on the medical, the straightforward medical things, treating for shock, dressing rooms, that kind of thing.

SPRAGUE: So, in that unit, did you have-- were the psychologists or psychiatrists, were they both on the civilian side and the military? So, were there any commission officers who were Army doctors who were psychiatrists or psychologists in civilian world?

WILSON: There might have been. I don't remember, to be honest. There probably were. You know, because I know there were people who, like MPs, for example, who were MPs and then they were also civilian police officers as well. So, I'm sure there probably were people who were in the psych field and in both sides of their life, in military and civilian world.

SPRAGUE: Did you have any deployments with the unit?

WILSON: Came close to it. In '96, I think it was, they told us we were going to go to Bosnia. We were all set, packed up, ready to go and then just days before we shipped off, something changed and then they decided to call it off and said we weren't needed.

SPRAGUE: What was that experience like?

WILSON: Stressful. Again, I was very young and very-- I was terrified, but also 00:53:00ready to go because I was kind of like, well, this is it. This is what I signed up for. Let's do it. You know? I got myself psyched up and ready to go. And then it was kind of like, oh, never mind. [sighs] [laughs] You know? I've been stressed out and going crazy for because I think they told us a couple of weeks, I think, before we were supposed to go and then pretty last minute they're like, oh, sike. Never mind. It was rough. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

WILSON: And you know, and I have mixed feelings about not having gone. It's like, on one hand, had I gone, I'd be getting all these crazy, awesome benefits right now. But then also, I might not be sitting here right now because that was a pretty nasty conflict over there. I could have got-- I would have been out in the field, you know, treating people so I could have got blown to Timbuktu, you know? So it's like, double edged sword. You know?

SPRAGUE: That was in '96?

WILSON: Yeah, I believe it was 1996, I think, when they decided that-- when they said we were going to get deployed.

SPRAGUE: Do you happen to remember when they said, no, you're not going now? [laughs]

WILSON: Like I said, just days. I want to say like, two or three days maybe before we were supposed to ship off.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

WILSON: It was pretty close to the time, yeah.

SPRAGUE: It sounds like to me like you were basically, your pallets were packed or were already in theater and you were about to get on the aircraft with your bags packed and you've made out your will, you've made out [Wilson laughs] your SGLI.

WILSON: Well, I remember I think I had given my apartment notice. I think Tiffany and I might have even still been roommates at that time because we were roommates, and I think we had given our apartment notice, and I can't remember what job I had. I went through jobs like I go through underwear back then. I 00:55:00worked a lot of retail jobs and something. I can't even remember what job I was working at, but I think I told my job I was going to go and, you know, I just made all the preparations and then everything changed.

SPRAGUE: Did you have any other near misses or near deployments?

WILSON: I don't think so. I think that was the only one. Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Any operations where you were rear det or rear detachment for a unit, the rest of the unit that was forward, when you were here? Sometimes that happens with Guard units.

WILSON: Yeah. No, I don't believe so. No.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Any other experiences from that unit that you'd like to share?

WILSON: Not really. I mean, it's just, like I said, it's all kind of a blur at 00:56:00this point because it's been so long ago, and, you know, I've been out since 1999, so, yeah. I was in when I was a teenager and into my early twenties and yeah, sometimes I think about it and it's almost like I'm thinking about it or just talking about it right now. Feels like I'm talking about somebody else, you know? I mean, there's fundamental parts of me that are still the same. But honestly, I was very much a different person then. So, sometimes it just feels like somebody-- feels like I'm watching a movie or like I'm talking about somebody else that did this. It was like, that's me that did that? [laughs] Yes, I know it was, but it's just-- yeah, I was just a very different person and I've become, grown into a different person. And so it's-- but yeah, it's just so long 00:57:00ago. Had this interview been, you know, within the first few years that I was out, I'm sure these conversations would be completely different and I'd have a lot more vivid memories about things. But, yeah. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: That's okay. That's all good. [Wilson laughs] Tell me about your decision to leave the National Guard?

WILSON: Well, just my time was just done, you know. It was just done and I don't even remember how that comes about. It's kind of just like, okay, you're done. I mean, there was-- two years after I was put on what's called Inactive Ready Reserve. That's where you're done, but if some war breaks out and they decide they need you, they could send you, you know, or send you through an abbreviated 00:58:00boot camp again just to retrain you, get you back up to snuff and send you off. So, that could have happened. You know, so for those first couple of years after, it was always in the back of my mind like, oh my god, what if they call me and send me somewhere, you know?

SPRAGUE: Did you have any particular feelings when you left the National Guard?

WILSON: Not really. I mean, I think I was kind of ready to be done. I mean, I'm glad I did it, but you know, that's not to say that if I had it to do over again that I wouldn't do it. But again, you know, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that my reasons for doing it were, you know, the altruistic like, "I'm the patriot and I'm going to go serve my country." That wasn't it at all. It honestly had more to do with getting away from home and not really just being kind of lost and not knowing what else to do.

SPRAGUE: You mentioned a number of occupations while you were on the civilian side, while in the Guard. Did you ever feel any tension between those jobs that you had and being in the Guard?

WILSON: Not really, no. It was just a lot of-- yeah. again, I was very young, so it was a lot of retail jobs. I mean, one of my first jobs, if not my-- might have been my very first job when I moved here was at a Blockbuster Video. [laughs] So, yeah, that was in no way in conflict with the military. Actually, I think I was almost done or maybe close to being done when I started-- got a job as a makeup artist at Glamor Shots, if you remember those. Very young civilians 01:00:00who don't remember those, there were these photography studios that were in every shopping mall in America and pretty much if you see one of the photos from there, you know it's from there. Well, first of all, there photos say real tiny on the bottom of them "Glamor Shots," but same hair like, big old '80s looking hair and just real dramatic makeup and these tacky costumes that we had, like gold lamé leather jackets and feather boas. And yeah, that was just-- it was awful. [Sprague laughs] But yeah, I was the makeup artist there for several years, so I did that. So again, yeah, nothing-- I don't like anything I ever did conflicted with [laughs] the military. It was very different, but not conflicting in any way.

SPRAGUE: Okay. We're coming up on Veterans Day. Do you have any thoughts about 01:01:00Veterans Day or Memorial Day?

WILSON: I think it's just a good reminder, even for me to just remember that the sacrifices that people make and when they say that, it's not just-- I mean, yeah, there's the people who give the ultimate sacrifice. You know, they lay down their lives so the rest of us can be free and that. But, you know, I think of friends who have spouses who get deployed, you know? I mean, just imagine for a moment your significant other, especially if you have children, you know, imagine your significant other having a job where they literally have to go away for a year or more and you do not get to see them. They miss out on a year or more at a time of their children's lives, you know? I don't know how-- I have a 01:02:00hard time understanding how people can't be grateful for the people who do that. I mean, how many people today would be willing to do that? To deal with your spouse having to go away for long periods of time like that? I mean, that's why-- I believe, don't quote me on this, but I believe the divorce rate amongst married couples who where one or more in the military are higher than in civilian marriages, because of that. It causes a lot of stress and things like that. And I think it's just Veterans Day is just a time for to just remember and be grateful for those kinds of sacrifices that people make. In addition to the other obvious ones, like you said, for people who, you know, got shipped off to past wars and things like that and were wounded or saw horrific things that, you 01:03:00know, I can't even imagine because, yeah, I was in the military, but I never was active during a conflict, so I never saw people getting shot or blown apart. I never had to kill anybody, you know. I can't imagine. I can't imagine if I had to kill someone, how I'd certainly be a much different person sitting here right now had I had to experience that.

SPRAGUE: Do you continue any relationships with people you served with?

WILSON: Well, again, Tiffany Koehler. We're still good friends. I think that's about it. Because, you know, I think it was hard too, because when I was in, social media didn't exist. I mean, the Internet didn't exist. Email wasn't a 01:04:00thing when I-- those things didn't exist when I was in and now, had those things existed, I probably would have kept in touch with some of the people that I met at boot camp and AIT. Had those things existed. But it's like, you know, we just existed together in this moment of time and then went back to our whatever our lives were before or whatever was next in store for us. And so, yeah. I mean, if I hadn't moved here to Milwaukee, I doubt if Tiffany and I would have-- we probably wouldn't have kept in touch. I mean, even nowadays are keeping in touch is more online and when we talk on the phone or face time every once in a while 01:05:00but the majority of our contact is online or joking around on Facebook or commenting, joking around pictures that that we post and things like that. Tiffany is always posting pictures of her dog. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Any involvement with any veteran's organizations?

WILSON: Yes and no. I mean, so for several years-- well, for a few years, I did a lot of volunteer work. There's this organization in Milwaukee called Party-Girls Pin-Ups and I did that for a while where I would dress up like a pin-up and we would have different events or make appearances at different events that raised money for the VA. Ugh, having a brain fart. Down in the war 01:06:00memorial. What's the--? The USO. God. So yeah, I supported veterans in that way. Now honestly, my main way of supporting them, and I'll try not to get off on a tangent about this yet, but you know, I do these living statue characters and one of them I do is Rosie the Riveter. And so I've done Vet Fest a couple of times by the war memorial as that character to help raise money for that. I do these characters at Summer Fest and so I always do Rosie the Riveter on Military Appreciation Day. And so what I do is like, a military appreciation day. So, part of my pay when I perform at Summer Fest is tips. So, I have part of my 01:07:00tips, I donate part of my tips to the Wisconsin USO when I do that. I also have gone- three times now, I think it is? To welcome an honor flight to the airport, to Milwaukee Airport. So, you know, I try to support veterans in that way. I think that's, you know, and I'm always trying to get other people to do that too. If you've never done that, it's just such a powerful and meaningful thing to do. Take your tissues because you will cry. If you have a heart, you will cry. [laughs] I do every time.

SPRAGUE: How do you think things would be different in your life if you hadn't joined the military?

WILSON: Oh, goodness. Who knows? You know? I mean, had I not went into the 01:08:00military, probably wouldn't have met Koehler. Tiffany. So, I probably wouldn't have ended up in Wisconsin because I had no other ties to Wisconsin. It's not some place I'd ever thought about visiting or coming to. You know, if I hadn't been so scared of it, I might have gone out to New York and done-- been doing theater and stuff out there. You know, who knows? I mean, I do [laughs] sort of-- sorry, my stomach is growling. [laughs] I do believe in sort of destiny and we're put on a path. And I think things happen. Maybe not everything, but a lot of things happen for a reason. And it's just kind of like dominoes. Everything has an effect on everything else, you know? I mean, if I hadn't moved to 01:09:00Wisconsin and did an event that I recently did earlier this summer, I might not have met the wonderful man that I'm seeing now. So, who knows, you know? I don't know.

SPRAGUE: What would you want people who listen to this interview to know?

WILSON: Oh, gosh. Like, in what capacity? Like, about me or about the military specifically or-- that's kind of a really--

SPRAGUE: Maybe about the military and about you, if you can draw those two together. [laughs]

WILSON: Get everything signed and get all your paperwork and get everything in writing. I mean, get everything in writing. Everything those recruiters promise you, get it in writing. Have some really good guidance from someone who really knows what's up, because I really didn't. You know, I didn't come from a family with big military background. I mean, I do have an uncle, one of my mom's 01:10:00half-brothers who lives in Connecticut, and he was in. Dang it, I always forget if he was in the Navy or the Air Force. I know why I can never remember. But he was in the military. But I mean, he had left and moved to Connecticut when I was pretty young, so I had no-- you know, I didn't even-- I don't even think I knew until I went in the military that he had been in the military. So, there's people here and there in my family that were military, but not that I was close enough with to have really known about or whatever that, you know, nothing that, you know, made me want to go in the military at all. So, I just didn't have a lot of guidance. I mean, you know, my mom graduated from high school only. My 01:11:00dad didn't graduate from high school. I honestly, I'm not even sure if my dad finished middle school. You know, I'm not saying this to this to diss my folks or anything, they gave me life and I'm happy to be here. But, I mean, like, my dad couldn't even read and write, you know? So, if I could go back in time and change anything, I would have liked to have had better guidance, you know, even with college, with choosing college and stuff like that. I mean, I actually had a middle school guidance counselor, and I use that term loosely, who literally said to me that I shouldn't-- he didn't think I should bother going to college because I wasn't college material. How's that for some guidance, eh? [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

WILSON: And you know what, and it wasn't like, oh, well, maybe you should consider doing this instead, and maybe you should consider doing this instead. 01:12:00You know, like in some other countries, they give you-- they don't just say, "Oh, don't go to college." They say, "Well, maybe college isn't for you, but maybe you should do this." Or maybe, you know, they guide you. They actually give you some guidance. And I really didn't get that. I mean, I was really just freefalling, you know, I really didn't know what I was doing. [laughs] So, yeah, if you're a young person and you're thinking about doing it, I'm not trying to discourage someone going in the military if that's what they want to do. But you know, if you can have some real positive guidance from some adults in your life that really know what's up and know what they're doing, value that and get that guidance. It's so important.

SPRAGUE: So, what motivated you to do this interview?

WILSON: I don't know. I guess part of it being, you know, Tiffany is still a 01:13:00really good friend. And, you know, she brought this whole thing to Wisconsin. So, it's kind of like, you know, when she contacted me about doing it, I was like, of course, you know. I'm not not proud of my time in the military, but I'm also like, not like, "oh, I served my country" and all that, again, because, you know, my reasons, again, for going in weren't that altruistic, you know, patriotism or whatever. Not that I don't love this country and the things that it has afforded me and all of that. So, yeah, really, I wanted to do it for her as a favor. I also do think it is important to bring attention to, especially the women veterans who really have, especially the ones who really served and have went overseas and saw some things and gone through horrific things and been 01:14:00away from their families and things like that. I think it is really important to bring attention to that. I think even still nowadays, I think a lot of people, they think of the military and they just tend to think of men. You know? They don't think of the sacrifices that women make as well. And it's important.

SPRAGUE: Did we miss anything that you'd like to cover?

WILSON: I don't think so. I mean, unless you felt like you wanted to talk more about what I'm doing now, that's unrelated to the military, but otherwise not really.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Then thank you for your time today and thank you for your service.

WILSON: You're welcome. Thank you for yours.

SPRAGUE: Okay, then that concludes the interview.