Oral History Interview with Moriah White

[Interview Begins]

ROWELL: Today is November 14th, 2022. This is an interview with Moriah White, who served in the United States Air Force from May 2008 to April 2016. This interview is being conducted by Kate Rowell, in Singer Wisconsin for I Am Not Invisible Project and Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. So, Moriah, let's begin with where you grew up.

WHITE: I grew up all around southeast Wisconsin a little bit, but moved from Watertown to Menominee Falls, then to Germantown and settled in Jackson, Wisconsin. So the majority of the rest of my growing up from seventh grade until I left for the military was in Jackson, Wisconsin.

ROWELL: What was that like?

WHITE: I guess as much as you would think a normal suburban childhood would have been like. Playing outside a lot, had a lot of close friends that were within the smaller town that we had. I think at the time we had a little less than 6,000 for the entire town of Jackson and the surrounding village. So, yeah, a 00:01:00lot of ,a lot of family time, a lot of events outside, a lot of sporting events, closer-knit community to where we were with a church-affiliated school. And we had a lot of the adults that would kind of get together and kind of travel with the kids and then do a lot of, it's playdates, you would call them for grade school, and then we would just hang out with our friends once I got into high school. So it was really enjoyable, a good area to be raised in and its where I brought my kids back to.

ROWELL: Was religion a big part of your life as a child?

WHITE: It was, yes. All three. My parents are very religious, my biological father, and then both my mom and my dad, um, all Lutheran, so that's what I was raised with since I was little. What I still identify as. But yes, churches church every Sunday, um, Sunday school when I was little vacation Bible school when I was little. Always dressing your best, put your best foot forward. Uh, 00:02:00trying to do what we were supposed to do, you know, within what the Bible said that you should be doing. So wasn't anything that I felt was pressed upon me. It's just, you know, that I grew up in. And now that I still adopt as my beliefs as an adult. So--

ROWELL: Oh, yeah.

WHITE: --it was a very, very big part.

ROWELL: And so what did your parents do?

WHITE: So my mother, she had worked at an accounting firm when I was younger. And then she actually after she met my dad and they got married, she was working at Northwestern Publishing House in Milwaukee. She was working with the editors for a while. So, um, I don't know exactly the intricacies, but she always worked with the editors. She always helped put out the actually, the curriculum that we studied at my school for, like, um, uh, for our religion classes and everything 00:03:00like that. And then my dad, he was the director of I.T. at Northwestern Publishing House, and he still is. So that's what he did. My biological father was a karate sensei, and he still is. Uh, and then, now he's. He's taught at several different places. I can always keep up. But he became a deacon, and now he teaches karate classes as well as, uh, I believe he's a religion teacher at one of the--I think it's Kingdom Prep in Milwaukee.

ROWELL: Were you ever involved in martial arts as a kid?

WHITE: I was, uh, when I was ten, I started going and studying underneath my dad. And so I did that for about two years until it just didn't sync up with schedules anymore. But yeah, during that time, I earned a few belts and competed in a few tournaments. So I was very interested in something that I very much enjoyed doing and still enjoy doing. And I'm actually going to be kicking back 00:04:00up again soon, studying underneath my father. So he's very much looking forward to that.

ROWELL: Are you as well?

WHITE: I am, yes. Yes. Um, I believe that self-defense is something that we all have to have, you know, that inherent right to, um, but martial arts for karate, they don't go, you know, go looking for fight, just to completely defend yourself. So that's always an interest of mine. And then now with my own own kids, I would prefer for them to, in my opinion, learn from the past. So but I have to go first. Mom has to go first, finish earning her belts, or at least you guys can come in and start studying at the same time. But I still outrank you guys, so we're going to make sure we hold, that hold that up there. So when you go home and practice, when we're not actually at class, you know, you guys can't flip mom over or something like that. So.

ROWELL: And did you grow up with siblings?

WHITE: I did, not at first. However, um, I'm an only child between my father and my mom. And then when my mom and my stepdad, and they got married, they, we had 00:05:00[inaudible] in our family. So my stepdad came into the marriage with his two daughters who bracket me. One is eight months older than I am and one is a year and a half to the date younger than I am. And then when I was nine, my parents had my sister. And then when I was 14, my parents had my brother. So yep, [inaudible] with five kids.

ROWELL: Uh, and what was your experience with school like? Especially in high school.

WHITE: I went to a Lutheran high school out in Jackson, so the proximity was great to where I live. But I. I had a good experience in high school. I, I wasn't really in a clique of any type. I, I guess more or less eccentric. I liked to hang out with all different kinds of people. Um, I was in band. I was in three different sports to play volleyball to basketball. I was in track and 00:06:00field as a thrower. Um, had a lot of varying interests within school, you know. And I got along with most people, no real issues. So, um, I probably could have applied myself a little bit more, but, um, if I was really into art and everything like that. So, I mean, you're normal, I guess, ypical high school experience. I enjoyed my teachers, I enjoyed my friends. I was, as my dad called, called me a social butterfly. Um, I had some great experiences, so. Yeah, high school was a great time.

ROWELL: And did you have any veterans or service members in your family?

WHITE: I do. My dad is one. My stepdad. He's, uh, he's army. And let's see of my mom's, both of her brothers, one's Navy. Another one is a arine. My grandfather served, I believe it was. He was also in the Navy. And then I have a few great 00:07:00uncles that were Navy and Marines. So I have a cousin who is Air Force. And then as far as I know, I think my mom has another cousin who is Air Force. But, but, yeah, I was the only one from my generation of cousins or siblings that went. But yeah, very much military for my family.

ROWELL: What was your impression of the military like when you were growing up?

WHITE: Um, I had a great relationship with my uncles who were prior military themselves. To me, I, I looked up to them. I still do. They're great men, as well as my dad. Um, so when I actually was eight, um, my dad would always tell stories, his army stories around the kitchen table. And I just thought they were the coolest thing. And,, unfortunately, my biological dad hadn't been in my life for all that much. So kind of a little girl really kind of grasping on to any type of connection that you might be able to establish with this new male, you 00:08:00know, relationship that's in your life. And like I said, I thought the stories were just the coolest thing. And I decided when I was eight that I was going to go, I was going to go in the military and I was going to have my own stories. So I guess now, looking back in retrospect, something that I could share with him and that could be his and my connection. And I kept that little promise to myself and that that was my only plan going forward. There was no college necessarily and no plan. Now, looking back, but no college necessarily, didn't do the ACT, SAT, anything like that. I was going. I was going in the service and my dad knew and I told him and he was very supportive about that. Still is. So, yep, that was my, that was my experience with it. Looked up to to those men and I wanted to sit there and become something, become part of something that was bigger than I was.

ROWELL: What kind of story would he tell you?

WHITE: Oh, my gosh. Oh, of course. That's funny. We're actually trying to figure out a way that he can do an oral history kind of like this for our family so we can have these stories. But they were, they were just some stories about about his time in I mean, he was in Kuwait for a little while. He was at the motor pool, stuff like that. Just kind of stuff about him being squared away with things, or just goofy things that they would kind of at that time, you know, kind of hazy, but not really bad, you know, just having a new private go look around. Like, Hey, go, go find this box ST1s. And so like this, this new private would be going around looking for all this and like in the motor pool and everywhere else, trying to get this and spending hours doing it. And it was a box of stones--ST1s. And, but, I mean, again, I'm butchering the story. It was like so much more that he would put into it. And I haven't heard these stories in such a long time now that I think about it, but he would just have so much animation and they would just be really funny. Or he'd have jokes that he, you 00:10:00know, that he would come back from it. Just those long-winded oral jokes that just really went on because the whole story behind it and it was like 5 minutes and you were building and building and building. My family, we still reference those at like holidays and stuff, so if you don't know the joke, then you've kind of got to like sit there and listen to it. But that's that's what he would tell me. He would--just his experiences that he was in. They just sounded really cool, never really anything bad. But yeah, it just always sounded like something that I wanted to do for myself. So.

ROWELL: And do you tell your kids stories from your service?

WHITE: Oh, gosh. I think I compare my service differently. I know one of my friends thinks I have, like, imposter syndrome. I don't, as I know a lot of people who did like administration or support within their military career, we don't have the more showy resumes, I guess, understanding that a majority of the 00:11:00military is kind of like that. But, um, no, I don't really have a lot of stories. Also, my oldest is only 11, so they haven't really. I hope that's been the reason they haven't really showed enough necessary interest in mom stories. Hopefully when they're now the older they can ask and I can, I can tell them some. I mean I have some, but just haven't really shared much that much of them yet. So.

ROWELL: So coming back around to when you were a teenager in high school. So can you tell me a bit about how delayed entry became an option for you?

WHITE: Sure. So, um, going in since, of course, I had made that decision since I was eight that I was going to go in the military. My dad had told me what my options were, and of those, the Air Force was really probably one of the only two options. And so we had gone through with the contact, you know, the recruiter and everything like that. I believe it was sophomore year because they would still come out to the schools. So I knew I wanted to go Air Force. So I 00:12:00had spoken to the recruiter then. And then of course, they would, you know, give them give you their card and have my parents call them. And my mom would talk to them and whatnot. And my dad and my mom would go out to the actual recruiter office and sit there and have a bit more in-depth conversations. But you could be in the delayed entry program, which was basically you stating your intent to go active duty after graduation. And within there, you know, it was, yes, this kind of academic program, like you have to get ready for your ASVAB and then you're taking your out of that while you're in this elite entry program to basically, of course, get your numbers for what jobs you could qualify for. But then also since there was a delayed entry within a lot of the local high school, you, every once in a while, we would have events, like, all together. I remember one time we went out to, I think it was Q Awesome. We went paint-balling. That was pretty fun., Um, but um, yeah, you could be in the delayed entry program. I 00:13:00was in it for about a little over two years, so I went into it junior year. Um, so, '05, '06, and, um, and stayed into it all through, all through senior year until I actually had my job [drop??] and I left in May of '08.

ROWELL: Mhm. And you mentioned that you had a different job, kind of at the very beginning versus later what your MLS was.

WHITE: I did.

ROWELL: Can you talk about that?

WHITE: Yeah, at first, um, for whatever, whatever motivated me, um, the first job that I was actually slotted to go for was a SERE [Survival, Evasion Resistance and Escape]. And so basically it's, at the time, was the only Special Forces job that females could do in the Air Force. And I had that slotted for for a few months and I was going to go start taking the tests you had to do, like swimming, running, more, more in-depth PT tests, um, to be able to pass 00:14:00those before you even left for basic. And doing a lot more research on them, I knew that I, yes, I wanted to go active duty, but along with a lot of other people, you know, you want to be able to have that opportunity to experience certain things while you're active duty and then hopefully make yourself marketable for whether you decide to stay in or or whether you decide to get out. And while I was doing further research, just kind of finding more statistics of, about washout rates at the time, if you washed out, you were automatically reclassified into security forces and that wasn't necessarily an AFSC [Air Force Specialty Code] I wanted to go into, not that I have anything against law enforcement. I knew if I ever got out, law enforcement might have been an option. But that's not what I wanted to do for my active duty time. They had a very aggressive six on, six off deployment rate at that time. And like I said, there were some other things I wanted to try and do, and that just wasn't going to make the most sense. So, um, along with some other statistics about, um, unfortunately some of the training that you have to go through, some of it 00:15:00is very brutal and I mean you're, you're being trained to teach other people how to survive and evade, you know, rescue and, and basically escape not so many situations. Um, and unfortunately, women who go through there, if you actually pass and don't get washed out, they had a pretty high percentage of, um, again due to some of the trains, you're not able to maybe have your own kids. Because of some things that you would have gone through and and some other research and information that I found. And I was just like, oh, maybe not. Maybe not that direction necessarily. And then I felt like at that time I was kind of on the edge. If I wanted to do 20 years or if I wanted to just do four and and get out. And I didn't feel like, I didn't feel like that was going to translate into the civilian world as much for, like, the skills that I would have learned. Of course, still, assuming you can get through everything. And there, I mean, I was 00:16:00only enlisting for four years and their tech school was two years long. And if you didn't pass at any point, you were getting reclassed. So it's like, oh my gosh, you can put everything in there for, you know, 18 months and you get reclassed. You're like, Oh, great. So yeah, So I decided to give that one back and then I actually had to wait. I was actually supposed to leave with that job October 7th of 2007, if I remember correctly, and I gave it back several months beforehand. Yeah. Not this one. We're going to see what else comes down. And I was trying to look for a medical job. And do you give them, the recruiters, a list of what kind of jobs you want? And the last one on my list was finance. And no medical jobs were dropping at that time. And so finally, I think it was several months after graduation already, or close to, and my recruiter was like, 00:17:00Hey, finance dropped, but there's no medical that's dropping. So you can either choose to take the finance and you can do your time, if you want to stay in or whenever you get to that point, you can decide to maybe retrain and then have the option to see if you can go medical or something along those lines, or you can stay in finance. Either way, it's going to get you in. Otherwise, if you say no to this, we got to wait another six months for jobs to drop and there's no guarantee that finance is going to be on that list either. So at that time I had already been out of, out of high school for getting close to a year. So I was like, Yeah, we're just going to take this. That's fine. So sure enough, I did and kept that one, had all the scores that I needed to for ASVAB, so were in, and left in May of '08.

ROWELL: And so can you tell me a bit about why you chose the Air Force specifically?

WHITE: Yes. I blame it on my dad [laughs] but, no, when my dad and I, after I 00:18:00had told him that I once I was old enough to kind of have that conversation and he would always joke Coastie wasn't really an option [laughs]. It was never really came up in conversation, honestly. But he's like, okay, you're not going Army. [laughs] Okay.

ROWELL: Did he give you a reason?

WHITE: He--I don't know. I can't remember specifically what his reasoning was that he would have given. Probably along the lines of, just like the quality of living that some some army bases have. It's not knocking the Army. It's just, unfortunately, it-is-what-it-is on some things. So he's like, nope, nope to that. And he said no to the Marines and I don't remember why, but I was like, that's okay, Dad, I don't think I was really going to go Marines anyway. So he's like, You got Navy and your Air Force because he was, I think, more along the lines, too, of the long term, if I wanted to stay in long-term, you know, sometimes Marines and Army that you got a quick burnout. Some people say there's 00:19:00a shelf life for Marines, you know, and or any other branch and certain certain AFSCs or MOSs in general. So I think he was trying to look long term, like if you want to stay in, these would be the better branches to be able to do it, to maybe have some more opportunities. Well, I don't like tiny spaces and I have a very good respect for the ocean and I don't like a lot of open water. So the Navy was out. And, um, I also don't like to fly, which is fine, though, because it's not like I'm really piloting anything. So, yeah, the Air Force was, was really the option.

ROWELL: What was your full name when you entered the Air Force?

WHITE: Moriah Jean Hall.

ROWELL: Okay. And then can you tell me a bit about your, the day of your induction in 2008?

WHITE: Oh, I was really nervous. Um [sighs].

ROWELL: Why were you nervous at the time?

WHITE: Well, at the time, I mean, I never really, I mean, I had done a little 00:20:00bit of traveling with my family and a little bit--we had taken a few vacations when I was in high school over to like the east side and up towards New York and and over into Canada. But that was the first real time I was going to be moving away from home. And luckily, though, my dad, he he prepped me. He did. Like I said, I don't like I don't like flying. I don't like heights. So he knew I was already going to be nervous from that. So several several months beforehand, we actually took a trip, him and I, out to Las Vegas. And so that was me getting my my flight experience. And so I wasn't so nervous. So, I mean, that did help, but it was just the the whole unknown part, you know, trying to to mentally prepare yourself for it. And we had we had packed everything in my bag. I mean, he was 00:21:00on it. He was looking at all of the the dimensions and what you could and couldn't bring. We were ta--We were folding everything as small and as compact as we possibly could. And, I mean, he would have me like conversations and like little drills before I even left because he's like, it is it is 80% mental and 20% physical. He's like, You've got the physical part down. That's that's not a problem. Do not let them get in your head. It was giving me so many tips and I was just like focused in on it when I left. But on that day we had we got down my both my parents, my mom and my dad, came with me and, oh, I got everything, all the paperwork finished off and they herded like 20 of us into the room and you have a flag there. And they were creating everything they needed for us to get sworn. Held up our right hand and swore-in and my parents could see it. It was, it was a big deal. And then it was, okay, you kind of say goodbye for a little bit. We got to head to the airport. And they kind of, all of us kind of 00:22:00traipsing through the airport. And, you know, parents could still come to the airport, too, so mine did. And so we were doing that. I think my brother and sister might have been there as well. And, yeah, you didn't know what was coming, so you tried to hope that you were as prepared as you possibly could be. So I got on the plane and I mean, I think I remember flying down there just trying to go over anything that you already had for information, like, I think it was the [laughs] [times??] military outpost [laughs]. I remember like we were sitting on this plane like, okay, this is like quizzing each other. Like it's going to be this huge thing. I mean, it was you had to know it still, but it was, it was almost like that last minute prep before you have an exam and you just, you don't know what questions are going to be on the exam. So that was, it was that nervousness, but that nervousness that told you you were ready, you were good. So, yeah, I remember that for that day.

ROWELL: And so where did you go for basic?

WHITE: I went to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas.

ROWELL: And what was it like landing there? Arriving?

WHITE: We landed at night. So like, I remember landing. I don't really remember anything from the airport as much. I remember us loading onto the bus to get to the base and I remember getting to the base. [That's relative to your??]--everything was kind of ratcheting up a little bit more. And you got there, and exactly what my dad said happens, it happened. And you got your TIs on your bus, yelling at you to get your stuff. Get off. You got a few seconds. You are hurrying. 'Cause my dad's like, Try not to be at the back of the bus, or like, if you do, have your bag with you, ready to go. And, um, some people put their stuff underneath the bus, we had to go get that. And they already had you doing up downs, and you were doing stuff with your with your bag. And I was just so thankful at the time because, I mean, it was it was like kind of 00:24:00exercise/hazing. Nothing bad, but just a lot of, you know, hold your bag up and you got to sit there and hold it for so long and then you got to put it down and like maybe go around your bag and then hold it up again and you got to keep holding it. And it was just a lot of up down, just the physical exertion of it. And again, my dad had had prepped, I mean, I had a a compact, and we even weighed it, and we would practice beforehand. He's like, How long can you hold this? And, I mean, yeah, he was, he was on it. So I was making it look like, Oh my gosh, okay, okay. Just kind of keepin' quiet. He's like, Keep your head low, you know? And I was fine with mine, but I was seeing some of these other, some of the other girls that I was with, and they were hauling big suitcases and they were like maybe tinier girls or something like that. They couldn't lift them up. So then the TIs were zeroing in on them. And I am just like, straight face, just [laughs; inaudible] don't draw attention. So I think we were there, probably felt much longer than it actually was, but there for a little bit. And then they 00:25:00got us into into our barracks. Um, I don't think we had anything necessarily assigned, just kind of like go find a bunk. And, um, I think the first night after, after that kind of point, they kind of just gave us a quick break down, introduced our TI. Hey, you know, start unloading your stuff. But it wasn't, of course, that nice [laughs]. And then at a certain time, they were like, Yep, lights out and like a bunch of scared [inaudible] what do we do [laughs]? Um, but yeah, that was, that was the first night. It was, it was exciting. Um, kind of that, uh, that first step towards that first biggest decision that you ever made in your own life. So that was cool.

ROWELL: Um, and for, did you have to change any parts of your appearance? Did you have to cut your hair at all or did you go for the bun? What was your, how was, how was adjusting to that part of it--initially?

WHITE: I didn't have to change my--I did have to lose weight to get in. That was that was one thing. I did have to lose weight. I did do sports all through high school. I didn't do as many senior year, but I had to lose about like 32 lbs or something like that. I ended up making my way. I ended up---I had to, actually, no, I had to lose 30 lbs. I had to lose 30 lbs from the time I knew I was going to when I knew what date I was leaving and, um, I was like, okay, granted, I have a more muscular build, but I'm also technically plus size, which came in handy in sports. But but the military has there certain standards for with just your height and, in my opinion, a little outdated on BMIs, um, and not taking into account people's actual genetics, body structure, family history. Stuff 00:27:00like that. And some people are truly just built differently. And, but yeah, so I had to lose 30 pounds. I ended up losing 32 and I was able to go to basic, but I didn't have to change anything else about my hair. I hadn't colored my hair or anything at that time, so it was still just normal. And yeah, I was just learning how to do our bun to make sure that everything was, was how we needed. It was a lot of gel [whispers], a lot of gel. I, I have ethnic hair, so I didn't normally do a lot of product in my hair and that was something that I had to get used to. It was a lot. It was a lot.

ROWELL: Washing it out at the end?

WHITE: You didn't always have time to wash it all either. Yeah, no. So you can imagine like the gunk can build up and, yeah, in, in Texas in summer, I think we kind of, we needed help to kind of like sweated some of it off, you know, it didn't just like build up [laughs] layer after layer. But yeah that was that was 00:28:00that was probably the biggest thing is, yeah, how to make sure that your hair stayed where it needed to be.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. Perm.

WHITE: Yes. Didn't move. Yes, stayed exactly where it was supposed to be.

ROWELL: No product?

WHITE: Nothing.

ROWELL: Um, and so how was it for you transitioning into other elements of of military life in training?

WHITE: I don't think it was that bad. I mean, I enjoyed it, to be honest. Um, my hardest part was I kind of got sick in basic and they didn't know what was wrong with me, and so I had to--Going to medical for like weeks, like days and days, weeks and weeks. And it being, at that time, basic was only six weeks long. [Laughs] so it's not like you were there for a crazy amount of time. But yeah, I couldn't figure out. I just felt like I was trying my hardest to go as fast as I could, but I felt like I was in molasses, like I, my body was not--It was like a 00:29:00weird, I'm like, Is there something wrong with my brain? It just felt like my synapses, like I could not move. I was trying to go as fast as I could, but I was just like, weird. And so that was really frustrating. Um, it would kind of like, come back and forth. And then, yeah, weeks after going in, my [??] fear, if they realized, or they found out that I was anemic, so they had to put me on iron pills for that, and then it started to get better. But yeah, I kind of messed with me for a little bit. It didn't happen right away, so I don't know if it was just the change to the food that we were on. Um, but yeah, I mean, PT, everything like that, all the training, that was, that was fun and interesting. But yeah, the weird--having anemia kind of threw me off for a little while [laughs].

ROWELL: And then was there anything that was particularly challenging for you or especially rewarding maybe?

WHITE: Um. Particularly challenging.

ROWELL: So as a young trainee, kind of--

WHITE: Maybe, let's see, for--hmm. Honestly, just honestly for the challenging it was, now that I think about it, just more than I guess I really would have remembered, but just really kind of feeling like you have to dig that much deeper to try and keep up with everyone while I'm getting regulated on these, on the medication that they were putting me on, because it took them a few weeks to figure it out. So I was on other different medications while they were trying to figure out if that helped or not. So there were other side effects. One of them, I started falling asleep, like, anywhere. I actually almost got into real big trouble for that one t [laughs] time.

ROWELL: What happened?

WHITE: I was in the snake pit, so it was--

ROWELL: What's the snake pit?

WHITE: Where all the TIs offices are.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: It's within the squadron. And I was a runner. So basically, like they had 00:31:00a desk outside of, like one of the TIs door. So if they need anything, you basically go run, drop something off, go get something they need that. And while you're doing that, you're studying your, your professional development guide, your PDG. So I was doing that and I was in the midst of them trying to figure out a medical, what the heck was going on with me, and I had to use the restroom. So I asked for permission. I went to the bathroom and I fell asleep. I fell asleep. Everyone else was, like the whole pad within the squadron was, like, empty, like everyone else was out doing some type of trainings that wasn't at the squadron. And so there was no one to, like kind of check up. And then all I remember is my my dorm chief coming in and she's like, Hall, are you in here? And I was like, What? Yeah, yeah. What's up? She's like, Are you okay? I'm like, 00:32:00Yeah, I'm fine. What's going on? Like, I was, of course, coming out of it. I thought I was in there for, like, a few minutes or something like that. She's like, What the heck? And she's like, Sergeant Florence has been looking for you. You've been gone for 45 minutes. And I'm like, Holy, Gosh! Like, they thought I went A.W.O.L. [Laughs] Like it was bad. And so I was like, Oh my gosh, no, no. And I, like, he he had an idea because, of course, he's our TI, so he knows what medical [problems??] we we have so--Not necessarily meaning that they have to show that they're empathetic or like they even care necessarily [laughs] so I just remember I like got together got in the bathroom she's like you need to get back to you know, just don't even go back to the snake pit like. Or go back and maybe get your PEG and then and then go up to the dorm and out of the barracks. And I was like, okay, yes ma'am. And so I walked out and I remember my TI clicking across the [panel??] And he just saw me. I was like. [Sampler??] He 00:33:00just, like, looked at me as if eyes could sneer, [over??] because, I mean, but I think now, looking back, it was kind of like, I'm pissed off at you because we didn't know where you were. And you maybe you're making me look bad, but also like, okay, you're all right. Get your [inaudible] back out there.

ROWELL: Yeah.

WHITE: Okay. Going. Yes, sir. So I think that was the most challenging is just, there was just a lot of medical stuff. I passed out in the dorm room one time in the in the day dayroom One time. Yeah. Because they, they couldn't figure out. I ended up getting, um, we were, we were cleaning our weapons. [Inaudible] Yeah. And I don't remember. I've never passed out before, so it's like a weird thing. And I remember the desk and the rest of the dayroom room and the president's picture, and I started leaning, you know, what's happening? And I just I leaned 00:34:00over and I guess I kind of passed out and I barely I was barely coherent enough for them to sit, and while they were talking to me. I barely remember that moment. Yeah. some EMTs had to come in and I had to get sent to the hospital. Oh, my gosh.

ROWELL: Was that on base?

WHITE: It was on base. And then, like, they they were checking EKG. They, of course, they didn't know what the heck was wrong. And I didn't either. I'm not eating or drinking any less or anything that and I think that was before they finally figured out that it was my anemia, that I was so low on iron, I passed out. And I will never forget leaving the hospital. No one had a lot of foresight before that. So I. I wasn't sent there. They took my you ABU [Airman Battle Uniform] top off and I didn't have my cover on, so I didn't have my hat and I didn't have my ABU top. So I'm leaving this hospital. I have no way to contact 00:35:00anyone else and I have to walk across base as an airman basic in, at, basic in nothing but my pants, my boots and my tan t shirt. And I am going to get reamed a new one by every single person that sees me. And sure enough, I was gripping my discharge paperwork from the hospital. I was just marching my little self. Every single person stopped me. "What are you doing?!" [Whispers] I'm like, "I'm so sorry, I just got discharged. They didn't send my stuff with me. I'm trying to get back to my squad." But I think I got stopped like three or four times. And I'm like, Oh my gosh. I was just so embarrassed. I got back and they're like, Are you okay? [Inaudible] But like I got lit up by every single person. So I think that was the most challenging. Most rewarding was, um, we had like, uh. 00:36:00Brother flights. Sister flights. Other flights. The younger flights that would come in your first week are called Rainbows because you don't have your uniforms yet. So you're just wearing whatever civilian clothes you came in. And some of the older flights, basically, we would start teaching them and practicing with them on how to actually lead a flight. And so we would actually be able to, if we were good enough, able to lead them over to like, say, travel on some days or to maybe maybe one or two other places if they maybe needed to go get something else done, like chapel and like [inaudible], usually you're the one. Like if you've got a lot of people that have to go to a medical appointment, you guys are lining up and whoever has been here the longest you guys are taking them over there because the TIs they have other stuff to do. Um, and actually, of course, [inaudible] so I got pretty good at it. And so when my parents came for 00:37:00graduation week, they got to watch me be one of the flights over there to wherever it was that we ended up going. I think I just had to, like, drop them off. It wasn't necessarily that we had to, I had to stay, but I think it was going to chapel. And so I got to I got to do that. So that was pretty cool for me because my dad, you know. He got to see that though. So that was probably one of my most rewarding for basic.

ROWELL: You mentioned the PDG, the Professional Development Guide. Can you tell me a bit about that? What was what was in that?

WHITE: So it's a nice, thick book like that. And it basically goes front to back about everything and anything that not just a new airmen, but airmen with a capital A, in the Air Force need to know. Everything from your dress code to etiquette to, oh, my gosh, there's so much stuff in there. But everything that 00:38:00you need to know for for regulations that you need to meet, whether it be like is it dress and appearance, dress and appearance, how to fold the flag, how to, you know, history, everything like that, to people who've come before, information on--I, so many things. And but you have to learn all of this. And because eventually the further you get into your career, this is what you start getting tested on to, of course, make rank. Your first few, until you get to senior airman--those are timing grade, time in service. And then after you make senior airman, then that's when you have to start testing for staff and that's what the PGA is. But they want you to still have all this information for like the history and kind of a a real big look at where you came from and where the Air Force is now and what the standards are for you to be in this military branch and for you to know frontwards and backwards, what's expected of you. Um. 00:39:00Towards towards leadership, everything like that. And so, yeah, it's a big book that you had to, you had to learn. And then they would of course give different versions every few years with updates and stuff like that. So.

ROWELL: Is there anything in particular that you remember from that book?

WHITE: Oh, goodness. I still have. I do. Um. I feel like I should.

ROWELL: It's okay if not. I was just curious.

WHITE: No, I remember specifically with whether I was talking about, like in the snakepit, like for that specific day, I remember I was looking at dress code, like what we were allowed for within the regulations, for like the diameter of your hair, the length of men's hair, you know, the the diameter of a woman's bun, the length of your hair otherwise. You know, you can't have hair touching your eyebrows. You can't have hair touching your collar or anything like that, along with, you know, when you're in your blues uniform for your dress blues, um, the placements of your ribbons, the priority of your ribbons. Um, I mean, 00:40:00you are, you are measuring where it is from your buttons, first, second button, everything like this. And, you know, what types of, what colors of pantyhose you can wear. Like, All cut, you know where your skirt needs to be after you get it hemmed or anything like that. So just all of that. I remember, for some reason, whether that interested me or whether that was just something that I was really very much aware of. I just remember studying the dress code appearance so much. Like, I literally now I can even picture one of the pictures. I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah, there you are. Burned into my memory.

ROWELL: Yeah, well, obviously it mattered a lot to people as you're walking across base from that hospital.

WHITE: Right. Yeah, right. Maybe that's what it was, just as a trigger, like, Oh.

ROWELL: Um, and then can you tell me about graduation week?

WHITE: Sure. I can tell you a little bit about it.It was another, like, nervousness. I know we took our, I think it was our first official picture. My 00:41:00mom has it. I don't even have it. Oh, I might have a copy, but. But yeah, my parents were coming down, so my parents came down. My brother and my sister, my sister was [inaudible] 18,19, so my sister was nine, eight or nine. My brother was five. And we were getting, we were over at the parade field doing so much practicing because we also, our flight specifically, um, had a, we were, like, within the color guard. So we had all of the, we had all 50 states, their flags represented, and then you had the Air Force flag and the United States flag on the front. And so our flight, each one of us had a flag. I had Alabama. I remember that. I had Alabama. So we had to keep going to [the parade field to practice because we had to do all of our timing and everything for graduation in front of all of the stands to when we were supposed to salute to the other 00:42:00colonels, any, you know, any brass that was there. But we weren't just, you know, holding our flags. We had different positions that we had to do at different times. And then, of course, still march within the line of our flag. So there was a lot of preparation for that. But I remember in Texas, June was dreadful, you know, it smelled. And then just my parents coming down and we had--a graduation run. And of course, leave it to the Air Force to celebrate graduation with running. And I think we had like a mile and a half, two miles, something like that. And. At one point was, it was blocked off and like that's where all the parents were. And of course, there were a ton of parents, I mean, just a ton. And it's easier for them to kind of try and find you than you find them, because, of course, we're still trying to run. And I just remember I came 00:43:00around a curve and I guess like my dad had kind of like come down a little bit further. And so he saw me and so he yelled out. And then I kind of like, saw him. And then he kind of ran along with me for for a little bit. And then we were like, waving, but then trying not to pull your wave yet. And then so I saw he got back to my mom. And so I saw my mom there. And my siblings are just, you know, oh, all waves. And so that was really cool. And then so we we finished, went to the parade field, finished everything that we needed to do for that. And then, of course, you're standing at attention and they put us at ease. And then you, of course, had to hold that position while all the parents came down and had to wait for them to find you. So and then once they found you, you could break and give hugs and stuff like that. So it was my dad coming down. And both him and my mom finding me and standing in front of me and, so of course I 00:44:00haven't seen them in six weeks, lost more weight. So I was like really small for me. Like my mom could reach her whole arms around my waist and still have like tons and tons of, like one arm around my waist and have tons of room is ridiculous. But yeah, that was that was graduation week. And then we got to spend, I got to take them back, a little bit of a tour in some places. And then like I said, I got to lead to the chapel. So they got to see me lead the flight and then we went back to the barracks. So I got to show them all the barracks. I'm a little anal retentive, so like I was one of them who when we were cleaning and getting our barracks ready, I was just making sure everything was straight, like, down. We had our yard sticks out, like down to the centimeter. And my dad was very much like that with his stories too, very, very set. And mine was kind of the same way. I was the same. We were very squared away to the point that after a while TIs didn't keep checking my stuff because they knew that, like, 00:45:00Hall's on point. So I got to show him all that stuff. They were taking a lot of pictures. Um, yeah, we got to spend some time with family. We got, we got leave to go out in San Antonio. So I remember--they had already visited, like, the Alamo. I think we only had like a few hours, though. And so I think we went downtown to like one like of those mall area things. I think we got food. I ended up taking one of my, um, peers with me, I guess. She didn't have any family that came. And so she hung out with us, We went back to their hotel and kind of hung out. Got to be in actual civilian clothes. I got my cell phone for the first time in six weeks. So I know my mom has a picture of that, like really, really tiny and skinny sitting on my bed with my pink flip phone. It was great. Um, just got to hand out with family for a little while. And then we left that weekend to go to Tech School. So next chapter.

ROWELL: Yeah, absolutely. And then where do you where did you go for Tech School?

WHITE: I was on a lovely bus to go to Biloxi Air Force Base in Mississippi.

ROWELL: And that's Keesler?

WHITE: Yes.

ROWELL: Okay. And then did you have your MOS at that time?

WHITE: I think Biloxi. Well, we're in Biloxi while--we're at Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi.

ROWELL: Yeah. And then so you were assigned your MOS at that point? Is that correct?

WHITE: We actually were already assigned the AFSC before we went in.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: Yeah. So we already we already had it.

ROWELL: So you had, and can you state that for me, please?

WHITE: I was a 6FOX1.

ROWELL: Financial Management?

WHITE: Yep.

ROWELL: Okay. And then what do you remember about your courses that you were taking?

WHITE: Oh, my gosh. Some of them were so boring. [Laughs] Yeah. It was interesting. It was ironic that I was in finance. I don't necessarily like math, so that was always a running joke for my entire time, active duty. But some of the, a lot of the courses they were on this program and it was, it seemed really 00:47:00outdated at the time, like they still had it when I left. And it's this is from like the "80s, 70's.

ROWELL: Oh, like software?

WHITE: Yeah. For our, our our system for everything that we had to do within our military pay, and so this DJMS [Defense Joint Military Pay System], and it was some of the stuff was really informative, some of the stuff you just kind of were wondering, is this really how it's going to be once you got to the base? But I mean, they went over everything from how to look at your leave and earning statement, what's on there, how to how to basically interpret it, basically to see even how much of your pay do you get, and since of course that's that's known you can just make sure, you know, do you have any discrepancies, you know, you can check your taxes, stuff that baby airmen need to know in case anything happens on your on your pay for later in your career where you accrue your leave a lot. So many questions. How much leave do I have? It's on your LES every 00:48:00single month. You can see. Just to kind of save you time to, once you actually get to your base, you don't always have to go to finance. You can you can kind of figure it out. We did that. We went over a little bit of like maybe like trave vouchers little thing. And of course, it was just kind of a culture shock to you because you're like, you've never really heard of this stuff before, so you're trying to get the initial grasp of it as well as then try to become much more proficient of it. And each, you only had that topic every week. It was only a week, and then you took a test at the end of the week to see if you knew of, enough for you to go to the next week. And if you didn't pass that test, you would either get washed back and you maybe have one other chance to take that week. If you failed that you got reclassed or you get kicked out. So it's a little bit of pressure. Granted, we only had, we were only there for three months, so it wasn't like you were doing it crazy- long like some other people. 00:49:00My training squadron actually had personnel lists in there, so they were only there for six weeks. So definitely like, [in??] definite admin and everyone call them pop tarts because they were in and out and, and then finance--We were there for three months and then we were with the weather. Weather was there for nine months. I was like, this is kind of I mean. [Laughs] Is this the one training squadron house? You've got six weekers, three months and nine months. So I mean, you'd have weather people in there . He have gone through so many of us. But um, but yeah, there were some, there were some good information and there, there was another challenge. I was they were still adjusting my, my iron meds. I fall asleep. So that was, that was another little added lovely stressor on top of the normal, Oh did you learn enough this week to pass your test? I'm like, I can't stay awake. Um, or it was, if I wasn't on the med, I was going to sleep. If I 00:50:00was on the med, I would be nauseous and I'd be in the bathroom missing class anyway. So it was, it was interesting. I'm sometimes I'm surprised I passed. Thank goodness I got my med rate so I could attend class, but yeah, I could fall asleep. Of course they're like, Oh, you--You're in class all day. From the early morning till decent afternoon. And it's just information after information after information, and yeah some people usually it's a norm if you fall asleep, there are long days. If you fall asleep you got to stand up behind your chair. I could fall asleep standing up behind my chair, so it didn't help. But um, yeah, a lot of information. Some that served you well going into your first base. And some that was just--I think you would have had better, um, have a bit more OJT once you got to your first duty station. But I think overall, for what it was at the time, it was good to learn that kind of stuff while you were there. And then 00:51:00maybe different bases needed you to know different things when you got there. I felt like at my first duty station the focus was on a little bit and different things then what I learned when I was in Tech School.

ROWELL: You said OJT. What is that?

WHITE: Oh, just on the job training.

ROWELL: Oh. Gotcha. Yeah.

WHITE: So like just that, ah, exposure, that sink or swim once you got to your first race.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, and then, uh, you also met your former spouse at Keesler, is that correct?

WHITE: I did. I did meet my spouse at Keesler, uh, within, like, the first few days.

ROWELL: Okay. Do you wanna tell me about that?

WHITE: Sure. Yeah, I don't know if he'll love to hear or not [inaudible]. Yeah, I know. He. He was weathered, so he was one of those who were there for a long time. And we had just I think it took us like two days to get there by bus. And, um, we had just gotten in and we were in the main dayroom in the front of the train squadron, and they were just kind of having everyone come in and just kind of brief you quick before you started getting your room assignments and going up and kind of unpacking because it was the it was the weekend, I think it was a 00:52:00Sunday night, and he was one of the last guys to come in. And I just remember him walking in. Coincidentally, I was sitting next to my dorm chief from Basic, [who found me in the bathroom, and we ended up being roommates at Tech School. So that was cool. And I remember Victor walked in, and to this day, I will completely tell anyone like, yep, know, there was this weird feeling like, um, I don't know, a weird, I'm not going say a voice, but like, a weird feeling of like, hmm, this person's, this person's going to be important. He's going to, he's going to be in your life for for something. I've never had that feeling before. Never up until then and never since ever. And and it was funny too because he's not my normal type either. But we we ended up like kind of hitting it off, kind of staying our our separate ways for a little bit. But he started showing interest and I reciprocated said interest. So we started dating, and he 00:53:00asked me out while we were sheltered for Hurricane Gustav. It's like the sweetest thing for a 19-year-old, just the sweetest thing. All the girls were in one room, all the guys were in the other at the school house, you know, because of course, we took everything at the school house and they're sandbags in front of it and why the school house was going to save us, I don't know. I was on the third story or the third floor in our dorm room--

ROWELL: Oh, wow.

WHITE: --or in our, in our training squadron. But so we went down there and we could kind of hang out during the day. I actually have a picture of that while we were down there. But yeah, I got really nothing to do during the day and you're just kind of like waiting for all this to pass over. And I remember one of the nights we, we were able to have our phones, of course, and he texted me because he's in the other room and we're excited. A few days later, unfortunately, he left for his first duty station at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana. So he went over there and we we kept our contact. And when I 00:54:00graduated in October, I actually went there first. [Whispers] My parents were pissed.

ROWELL: So you went there right after graduation.

WHITE: Right after graduation. We had I actually carpooled with a few other people. It was kind of like a carpool. And one of them was heading to Texas. So they actually dropped me off at the airport first. And then I flew there, paid my own way, flew there. He picked me up from the airport. I spent like a day or so with him since I hadn't seen him for a while. And then I flew from there home. And so went home, then went down, reported to my duty station in October of '08. He came up to visit me and we got engaged. Yeah. So we got engaged October '08, but we hadn't known each other for very long. And then we. We kept in touch. We were at two different stations. I was in Scott in Illinois and he 00:55:00was in Louisiana. So was about like an eight hour difference for driving. And I think he was the only one with a car at the time. So he would take leave or, you know, come up whenever he could. So you might be able to see each other like every other month for like a day [laughs]. So we did that for a few years, or not for years, for a few months. And then we finally got married, August of '09. And then we got joint spouse orders for him to come where I was. And so he PCSed to Scott Air Force Base in February of '10.

ROWELL: PCS means?

WHITE: Permanent change of station. So he got the orders to move from Barksdale to Scott.

ROWELL: Got it. Was it common for people to date in that situation? Was were you one of a number of couples or.

WHITE: To get in tech school?

ROWELL: Oh, yeah, in tech school.

WHITE: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Tech school marriages are such, such a punchline to so many jokes.

ROWELL: Oh, yeah.

WHITE: So much so. Victor at the time, too. He was actually one of the, he was a, an airman first class. He was an A1C. He had two stripes. I had a little one strip or I didn't even have stripes at the time. I'm an airman basic, I didn't have have [many??] stripes. But he had been there so long that he had like all of the ropes that you could get. So it was, so you could have like a, the fishbowl was like the chapel stuff. So you have a white robe. So you're in something, you're involved in a group and a program. And like you do, you participate and then you do well enough. And the ropes are kind of like little ranks in and of themselves. So for chapel, it was the white robe. If you were on drill, the drill team, you had a black robe, and then you had the, of course, I got to play kind, of basically they were the the airmen that were kind of in charge in the training squadron when the, whether the TIs were there or not. They were basically the TIs, the training instructor's assistants. We'll go with 00:57:00that word. But they had three tiers. It was the yellow, It was the green, yellow and red go in that order. But I know red was the top one, Victor had every robe that you could possibly have. He he was a red rope. He was, he had his black, he was the head of the drill team. So he had his black robe, he had his white robe. But that was like the huge joke thing, too. It's like everyone dates when they're in tech school. And then you would have people get married while you're in tech school, like you just left tech school like six weeks ago. What are you doing getting married or whatever? Oh, I need to get, marry them before like [laughs] they leave because they're personnel list and they're only here for six weeks. It was it was the craziest thing. But I mean, in in so many things in military culture, like, even known now, some of my friends are like, the joke is, You know, military get married on the second date. Like, it's not a big 00:58:00deal. So, yeah, we even had some people in tech school who were, either got married or got married right afterwards. Like literally the weekend they graduated, they were had their stuff in hand and they were going to the courthouse before they went to there. It was crazy.

ROWELL: Big business at the courthouse.

WHITE: Yeah, it was ridiculous. Oh, my goodness. But yeah, it was that was pretty common. I think ours was actually less common for how long we waited. I knew several people who, they were, they were dating someone while we were in tech school. And then they got married like immediately afterwards. Or like I said, even while we were in tech school. And they had to have their, their name, their names changed. And, and yeah, we waited for a while afterwards.

ROWELL: Would people often get married in Biloxi or would they go home? And what did you decide to do?

WHITE: A lot of people would go to Mobile, Mobile, Alabama. We're not completely sure why. I just remember that that area just stuck out. I don't know if maybe they couldn't do it as easily or as quickly maybe. I'm not sure. But yeah, then. 00:59:00So we didn't really think about that. But then, um, yeah, we didn't get married till we were--We didn't do that beforehand. And then we got married at Scott, but we didn't do it at the courthouse or anything.

ROWELL: And you got married at Scott?

WHITE: Mm hmm. Yep, we got married at Scott.

ROWELL: Were either of you in uniform at the time?

WHITE: No.

ROWELL: No. Okay.

WHITE: I opted not to do that. Yeah, that was. Oh, that's another cringeworthy thing too. No shade to anyone who does it. Absolutely not. That, it's the pride thing. It's it's whatever personal reason, it's your day. You do what you want to do. But for me, I was like, no. And I think maybe it was also like a like a female representation thing. I'm like, I'm not going to wear my uniform, but there's not a, there are, but there's not always mil ti mil couples, military to military couples. And I think a lot of times women do get overlooked at as being a a veteran. I know. I do know there was a case--we had a conversation with a law enforcement officer and he had noticed my plate and I was a civilian at the 01:00:00time, but I was somewhere with my ex-husband. And he's like, Oh, who's the veteran? And he looked at my my husband and, you know, he's like, Well, I'm still active. And I'm like, I'm the veteran now. I'm like, It's my car.

ROWELL: Mm hmm.

WHITE: Yeah, that's mine. Um. But, yeah, it was for me, it was like, well, if you're going to wear your uniform, I can't wear mine. I still want to have representation. So we're just going to take that out of the equation. Nope, we're not going to do that. Besides, he was what. It was '09. He was an airman first class. He was two stripes. You could sit down with yourself [laughter]. No, we're not doing that. It's maybe one thing if you have some people who get married either for the first or second time or maybe the third. I don't know. Later in your career, when you know you've got, you've got a significant amount that you can wear on your uniform. I'm like, are you kidding me? You've two little stripes and you've got like three ribbons. No, we're not doing that. Go get in a suit or something. So. So, yeah--

ROWELL: [Bridegroom??]

WHITE: --get married. We didn't--Yeah, we didn't get, we didn't get married in uniform.

ROWELL: And was it at a chapel at Scott?

WHITE: It was at the chapel at Scott Air Force Base. Yeah, we did. We did at the chapel. Most of our wedding party was military, actually.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: So we had to have a, we had a decent-sized wedding party. I think we had, what, seven, seven bridesmaids and seven groomsmen. And we had some people coming from states away to be there. Some of them were coming from, I think, what, Louisiana was the furthest some came from? Um. Yeah. Louisiana. South Carolina. Maybe Arizona, possibly, at the time, to come to the wedding to, uh, to stand up. Some people definitely come from Wisconsin. Minnesota. But yeah, the majority of I think almost everyone on his side, except for his best friend and his brother, everyone else. So the other five of them were active duty at 01:02:00the time.

ROWELL: Okay. So big, big military community in his own family.

WHITE: Yeah. And then, um. Yeah. Because it was his little brother, and he wasn't. He's military now, but he wasn't at the time. So his. His best friend from home, who came from South Carolina, and his little brother were the only two that were not military. So then Victor and five of his groomsmen were. And then of mine I had--two of mine were active duty with me, and then the rest were other friends or family that I had come down from. So.

ROWELL: Okay. And so kind of backing up just a little bit also. So your first duty station was at Scott?

WHITE: Correct.

ROWELL: At Scott Air Force Base in Illinois, Right?

WHITE: Correct.

ROWELL: And what unit were you serving with at that time?

WHITE: 375th CPTS.

ROWELL: Comptroller Squadron?

WHITE: Yep. Comptroller Squadron.

ROWELL: Okay. And so what were your daily responsibilities like there?

WHITE: Oh, gosh, that's a loaded question. I spent four years there [laughs].

ROWELL: Right. So maybe--

WHITE: There's a lot--

ROWELL: --maybe to start with. Yeah, [inaudible]

WHITE: Um, when I first got there [inaudible].

ROWELL: Or maybe whatever, whatever you have the clearest memory of.

WHITE: That was the nice thing is that you were usually in a spot, whatever they assigned you, in whatever section, you were usually there for about a year before you move. If you got good at something that might move with you, depending on what the, what the task was. And so I actually wasn't even in the front. A lot of people got put on the front counter right away. I think that was an issue. I think some people didn't like that. I was actually put in the back. I was with our military pay team.

ROWELL: Was that more of a coveted position?

WHITE: I don't know, maybe, because you don't necessarily have to be--

ROWELL: Customer Service [inaudible].

WHITE: Yeah, it's, a little bit--if you're, if you're brand new to your station, I think it would be looked on a little bit more covetous because you're not 01:04:00having to be so much foot to the flame of having to really take what you were taught at tech school and really put it into play in front of customers. I completely give kudos to everyone who did that for me. I was I was in the back, but I was more in your pay system because we were coding everything. So the stuff that the front counter would bring back, we had certain codes that we'd have to do to actually enter into the system. So I was the one entering everything into the system, which I think allowed me to, to have a better understanding of kind of like that back house of it as well as to how that kind of really worked within the system itself, not just, oh, this is the form that you need. Okay, great. Yeah, this is the form that I need and this is the code and this is what I need to do to actually put this in the system to change it. So that was what that was for the first, for about the first year or so. So I 01:05:00definitely got better with that. I was the TASO, so basically I was the person who couldn't, I wasn't just coding, but when the cycle, so this whole batch of information for military pay changes that we put into the system was ready at the end of the day. I had to go back through and basically make through, make sure by hand that everything that was on that specific piece of paper was annotated numerically, that this one piece is the same one piece. So this is the 13th piece. It has to be the same 13th piece in here. And all of this information for this coding on this 13th document has to be relayed in there exactly the same. Otherwise it could mess up someone's pay record. So I had to go through there and verify it and hand it off to one of my sergeants so they could they could double check it. But then I was the one to actually send the the cycle off to to DFAS [Defense Finance Accounting Service] to go ahead and get everything process. So that was like the first the first big job. With that 01:06:00came, you know, some briefings for when people were getting ready to deploy because then you had to know the leave and earning statements of the LES a little bit. So social actions. I was in travel for a little while. So I was doing people's travel vouchers who were either changing their permanent stations, or PCS, into our base, or if they were PCSing out, briefing them on what they needed to do, what they needed to fill out, if they were coming in, have to help them fill everything out as well as for those who are going TDY. So temporary duty. And whether it was a deployment overseas, into [inaudible] or if they were just going for like, you know, an NCOA [Noncommissioned Officer Academy] or something like that. I did do customer service. Almost every job there I did.

ROWELL: What's that like for you?

WHITE: I enjoyed it. I guess, um, the TASO, I got good at that. And that 01:07:00followed me my entire career, which was basically the one who was making sure that everything was how it was supposed to be from the documents that we put from the military system into the system. The more, I guess the older I got, the more rank I got. It ended up being where I had more. I heard less and less checks and balances. I was very good at my job for that. I was very anal so I rarely made mistakes on that. So less and less times did NCOs have to sit there and double check everything in it. There came to be a time when I could I could input it, I could approve it, I could send it. It was it was ridiculous. Like there should there should have been some other balance in there, to be honest. But I was the one who was in charge of getting other people access. Working with with the higher ups at DFAS to be able to go ahead and do that. But I think that the most I enjoyed was special actions and separation retirements, so everyone 01:08:00who was getting ready to, of course, drop their retirement papers, you basically had to go through and scrub their entire military pay record. Excuse me. And I mean, we had a formula and sheets for that and we had certain documentation that they had to fill out so we could have like 40 addresses. And we need that. But the stuff the separations were were fun enough in itself, but it was the retirement that was a little bit more interesting. But you had to basically there was a projected amount that DFAS would put out for what their final paycheck was supposed to be, and you had to basically balance it down to this end. And if you didn't, you got to find it. So these people know exactly what they're supposed to get in their final paycheck. What might they be gain for their retirement paychecks afterwards? Severance pays, you know, anything like that. So there was a lot that you had to know and had to coordinate with. Their personnel was at the front with with DFAS higher up with, you know, other people like, at AMC [Air Mobility Command] Command. Um, ,so yeah, but I think that was 01:09:00the that was the biggest I think that's the one where I got the most accolades from as well. Um, unfortunately when you, of course, terminate, when you become a little bit more of a subject matter expert, you're not allowed to do some things. So, um, me being good at my job made so I wasn't able to, like, go to honor guard, or, one year, I wasn't able to take leave to go to both of my sisters' weddings and my best friend's wedding because we had, they were both in, all three of them were in like a week or two weeks. And we had an exercise coming up and for the majority of my career, I was told I was in like for one deep slot, or, I was a subject matter expert. No one else knew how to do my job. I had to be there. And so, yeah, it was a. A weird, bittersweet thing. Like, I enjoyed it. I like being good at what I do. I got awarded for it. I got, you 01:10:00know, noted for it. You know, Airman White, stuff was on point, I mean, we had inspectors come down from the Air Mobility Command and everyone up to like my senior master sergeant and everyone, they're like, okay, we got to make sure we're doing good on this inspection. And I mean everything. The T's crossed, I's dotted. I was good. And the inspector that came down and said he's [followed??] me for three or four days. It was, it was big. And he had, like, nothing but good things to say. And he's like, I've been in this job for, like, 30 years. You think? She's on point. And so that was that was really quite a claim for that. Um, and then when we had a cool ones, I actually--who was it? General McNabb. Duncan McNabb. He was four-star. I got to retire. So--

ROWELL: Really?

WHITE: I took my, when I went to a brief him, I was in charge of everything. I 01:11:00had to sit here and figure out his pay record. Now, my senior master sergeant, who also had very significant experience in separation, she went over everything with a fine tooth comb to which I would have expected nothing less. But everything. Everything was where it was supposed to be. She said, Yep, you're good. So one of my tactical sergeants and I went over there and I briefed him on everything. He didn't know his wife was there and everything. Like they were asking questions. And I'm like a senior airman, let's say I got three stripes [inaudible] four-star general. Okay, cool. Luckily, he wasn't my only general that I briefed for retirement, but he was, he was my only work star so, and then I got coined after that. It was like the biggest coin I've ever seen. It would sit in my wholepalm, it was ridiculous.

ROWELL: Coined? can you say more about that?

WHITE: Yeah. So when you're coined, there's a whole thing that you usually want to keep a coin on you.

ROWELL: Challenge coin?

WHITE: Yeah.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: Challenge coin. So. So kind of like along with the challenge coin, but also when you get coin, it's because someone who is ranked above you or 01:12:00something that they see that you've done something that is commendable. So it's, it's their version of an on the spot award for whatever it is that you did. So yeah, I think I got the most points around this guy. But you know, that was, that was the biggest one I remember. The thing, it was hefty, too, you know.

ROWELL: That's wonderful.

WHITE: And I mean, they can it's their personal coin. So like they they get to choose how it like gets decorated and everything like that. And so his had like the four stars on the back. So you know who it was, like his name was on it. It really was cool. It was cool. So I think, yeah, that was one of the most fun things for for that job. And I always had a passion for that job. You know, when I went to my next station and I was always joke with some of my friends, like if, if I could do the separation or retirements as a civilian, I would never leave. So.

ROWELL: Uh, so can you talk a bit more about some of those working relationships 01:13:00that you developed while you were at Scott in this position?

WHITE: Yeah. So you mean like with peers?

ROWELL: Yeah. And I also have a couple academic questions really quick as well. DFAS.Can you?

WHITE: Oh, my gosh. Of course.

ROWELL: Define?

WHITE: Defense, finance and analysis system.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: Don't quote me on that. Let me double-check that first. Wow.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: I haven't had to actually think of what it was in a while.

ROWELL: It's close and that's good. And then AMC?

WHITE: Air Mobility Command.

ROWELL: Okay. All right. Thank you very much.

WHITE: No problem.

ROWELL: Actually, I think we're just going to pause momentarily for a time, and then we'll come right back.

WHITE: Okay.

ROWELL: All right. So this ends segment one of the interview with Moriah White on November 14th, 2022.

[End of segment one] [Beginning of segment two]

ROWELL: This begins segment two of the interview with Moriah White on November 14th, 2022. All right. So, we were discussing some acronyms. Do you want to go over them again with me? So, uh, uh, DJMS?

WHITE: Yup. The Defense Joint Military pay System.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: DJMS.

ROWELL: Yeah. And contextually, what was that?

WHITE: That was the pay system that we had to work on with in finance that we put all of the military pay changes into that would reflect on them, the active duty service members pay record.

ROWELL: Okay. All right. And then we wanted for, AMC is?

WHITE: Air Mobility Command.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. And that was your 375th Comptroller Squadron was within the command, right?

WHITE: Correct. That was the one of the bigger commands on base. But 18th Air Force was on the base as well, as well as Transportation Command. So TRANSCOM.

ROWELL: Okay. And then so you didn't mention to me that there was a lot of diversity at Scott. Do you want to talk more about that?

WHITE: Correct. Yes. I actually have a picture that shows that too of my my group for that. But, yeah, we had a great diversity, in my opinion, of of service members at Scott. I mean, of course, you know, men and women, different ages and everything like that, but we had a lot of, um, a lot of minority 01:15:00representation, some African-Americans, Hispanic, everything that--much more noticeable at my first base. So, and it was from the airmen all the way up, oh my gosh, to the staff sergeants, technical sergeants. We had the master sergeants, one of our senior master sergeants at one point in time was African-American. So it was really cool to see the--as a young, you know, young airman, young woman of color just from suburban Wisconsin who didn't really get to have a lot of that representation throughout life, I guess. And I would definitely say that was something that that I did miss but didn't realize that I missed it until I was older and actually really witnessed it. But it was really cool to see so much representation not just from minorities but also women. We had a lot of a lot of women that were very experienced and very intelligent. So 01:16:00it was it was a really great, great group to be around. Some of them are still active and I keep in touch with the majority of them. One of them actually just made chief. So she's, she's an E-9 and she's the highest rank you can get. And I knew her when she was a senior airman, from when she was senior airman on. So

ROWELL: Was she your peer?

WHITE: She was when I first got there. And then she actually was she she made staff sergeant and then she was my supervisor for a little while. Um, and we had a really close knit group of women, and I was the baby. So but we had we would do stuff as, as a group together, like outside of the squadron. I mean, everything from working out to, I mean, we celebrated baby showers together. That specific. Uh, Sergeant Brandy Cotton, she actually, her, myself, and 01:17:00another Sergeant Heslyn Farris, we were pregnant at one time, so like we have pictures of, like, us all doing stuff. It was ridiculous but like, yeah, we had a great group of women too who would be able to like, kind of hang out and have that support group both at work and then outside. But yeah, it was a great, a great group of diversity within that first base.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. And did that have any sort of impact on your experience in the workplace?

WHITE: Um, I think it just allowed for a lot of different perspectives to come in, whether that was different experience perspectives or, you know, just other different social perspectives to come in when it came to working with a lot of active duty members that might have come from different backgrounds, um, especially when we would have some foreign nationals come through, just kind of that understanding that not everyone is just so--Not everyone's going to fit in this specific box. There is a lot of other culture, a lot of other 01:18:00representation out there, and I think it was a really good example as a youg airman to really kind of see that and have so many sergeants that knew how to bring that forward and work with that. So.

ROWELL: And then you had a specific master sergeant that you looked up to, is that correct?

WHITE: I had a senior master sergeant--

ROWELL: Sorry. Senior sergeant.

WHITE: No, you're fine. Yes, Senior Master Sergeant Suzanne Signore-Hayes. You know, she was, she was married to [inaudible] and she was a senior master sergeant at Scott. So she was an E-8. And I'm not exactly sure when she got there. I don't think it was that far after me? And she was just one of those transformational leaders that just leads from the front, you know, and just one of those people that ,she's empathetic, but, like, she sticks to her guns. She's very knowledgeable. You know, she just, she knows who she is and she's 01:19:00comfortable with that person. Um, but very professional, too, in what she was doing. Of course, she had to be a little political for being a senior master sergeant. Going up in the rank definitely comes with its own challenges for that. But, um, very, very classy. I will say that, um, definitely a leader. I would walk through fire for her, so she was, um. She was awesome. Definitely tried to keep. We would joke that she was like the mom of the squadron and she had, she's married [inaudible], and she had four kids, four sons, and she'd been around the block for her, for her career. So she was very good at, I guess, keeping tabs on people, in a good way, like, you know, kind of she knew when to kind of check in to see if there was anything going on, if you needed anything. Um, so for some of us who were maybe having questions about career or, you know, different type of transitions within family life, either like getting married or having kids, like, I remember her coming to, uh, coming to the hospital when I had my first son, and, like, she brought, like, this, um, this, like, little 01:20:00baby basket type thing. But, um. But yeah, she always, always one of those mentors you could go to and, and talk to you about anything. Just really approachable open door She was that, you know, you understood where she, where she stood on things. She was willing to have conversations with you, but as long as there was that mutual understanding, she'd go to bat for you for anything. So.

ROWELL: And did you have any other mentors while you were there?

WHITE: Oh, goodness. Sergeant Cotton was probably one of them for, um, definitely That transition from peer to sergeant kind of, not really muddies the water, but just, you know, it's a different transition when people start making rank and they, you know, originally outranked you and now they're higher up. So it's a different echelon that you'd have to you have to approach with, um, I think different professional respect. So Sergeant Brandy Cotton was one, I mean, 01:21:00excuse me, Sergeant Farris, she definitely knew her, she definitely knew her way around her jobs, too. So she was, there was a lot of experience from her. Gosh, I probably almost every sergeant I mean, almost every sergeant there, Sergeant Justin Ellrich, he was awesome with his job. I think last time I checked, he was still in too but, um, great, great experience. Um, a little after a while, Sergeant Rob Shearer came in and I learned a lot from him. He was my supervisor for a while. I think at first, like, we kind of butted heads a little bit and then like, we had like a conversation of kind of, I guess, understanding of each other and, and just I think that was my one of my first big experiences as an adult to really understand what it was to have that open communication with someone else. It's like, you know, they're not a mind reader, you're not a mind reader. You guys got to sit here and talk about this. And I think that's really 01:22:00cool because I actually still, of course, hold myself to that when it comes to work, whether it's someone who is below me or someone who is above me or a peer, it's like we got to sit here and talk it out. So that was that was good. But here he was so much experience like within all of them, though, I mean, Sergeant Rachelle [inaudible]. Oh, like, oh my gosh, there's and those were just the staff sergeants. Those were just the E-5s. And, I mean, then you go up to the, to the E-6s and you just had so much more experience up there. And, what was it? Technical Sergeant Julie Lee. Um, she was, she was awesome. Um, so much experience. Yeah. And then how can you have, like, the master sergeant? We had Master Sergeant Reindale Hill, for a while, and then, yes, Senior Master Sergeant Signore-Hayes. And, it just the enlisted side was just stacked, and, yeah, I, just so many of them, I think at at one point or another, and then 01:23:00afterwards, just were, were mentors. There was a lot of it was kind of, it was kind of like one of those moments where, you're like, I want to be that person when you grow up. You're just in awe of how much they know and how much they can just completely retain. [Whispers] I'm like, Oh my gosh. How did you know? How do you know that? Yeah, they were. Gosh, If I could have been as good as any.of them, Holy Cow, I would have gone places--real, real places. So, yeah, there's a lot of mentors at Scott. I was, not just biased. That was my first base. That was, that was my best base that. That was an amazing group of people.

ROWELL: And you mentioned your first son and his birth. Do you want to say something about that?

WHITE: Yep. At Scott, I actually had two of my three kids and my first one was born in June of '11. So that was. Hot [laughs]. The temperature that summer was 01:24:00very uncomfortable. No, but we had a lot of people within the squadron who were who were pregnant that year. It was a joke that there was something in the water between us and personnel, and it was really cool to get the support from from some of the people. And sometimes you didn't always get the most support from people. Not as much for for my first son necessarily, but like I said, I went and had him and Sergeant Signore-Hayes came in and I think we had the baby showers. And, you know, she came in and met everyone at the hospital. So that was really cool. Um, it was, uh, actually after that, um, as far as they can tell, I unfortunately had a miscarriage a few months after him. I didn't know I was pregnant at the time. It's kind of traumatic as to how I. I just had the miscarriage. But, um. But come to find out, actually, like, about a month and a 01:25:00half or so later, I found out I was pregnant with my second son. And my oldest was five months old.

ROWELL: Wow!

WHITE: So it wasn't really planned. It was just like we were married and we knew we wanted kids. So we we weren't actively trying, but we weren't actively not. And PT tests after I had my first son was, was I concerned just because it seemed like I wasn't, I wasn't able to get back in shape as, as quickly as I would have wanted and then come to find out that, you know, you had the miscarriage and then, had, got pregnant with my second son--a comment was made by a leader officer [sigh] asking if I had gotten pregnant just so I could get out of my P.T. test.

ROWELL: Oh.

WHITE: And I thought that took some all a little bit, but I wasn't going to call 01:26:00anyone out on it necessarily but, of course, me being a little E-4, I'm not going to call out an officer necessarily--a high-rank officer at that too. I was like, Yeah, no, I'm not going to sit here and try and get pregnant with a human to gestate for nine months and birth and then support for a minimum of 18 years just to get out of a PT test, 'cause my original date of separation, coming to the end of my original four-year enlistment, was coming up anyway. I'm like, If I really wanted to, I could just get out. It's not a big deal. But yeah, I think that was that was one thing. Oh my gosh, after I had my kids, that was. That was an issue when I was active duty. If the whole, the whole joke seemed like if, if Uncle Sam wanted you to have a family, he would have issued you one.

ROWELL: Really.

WHITE: So just and then being military to military. A lot of people who had 01:27:00kids, like a lot of my coworkers, their spouses were civilians. I was one of the two mil to mil couples in my entire squadron. Oh, no. Three. There were three of us. For like the enlisted side. And then I think there was. There were two officers that were. That were married mil to mil. But they had, I guess, that was the mentality that if you were married to a civilian, well, your civilian spouse can basically kind of like drop everything they need, and they need to go take care of the kids because you're, you're active duty. Well, that didn't really work for like I mean, sometimes some civilian spouses did do that and sometimes they, unfortunately, might have lost their jobs for something along those lines. I knew one or two people who had happened to you. But for me, I don't know if it was because I was the mom. So the female of the couple, um. You 01:28:00were either, it seemed like you were either getting penalized because you had a family, or but then if you didn't take care of your family, then it was neglect, and you could get in trouble for it. But then when it came to, like, sick kids, instead of, you know, splitting the role as parents, they're like, okay, they're sick. I'll take today. And if they're still sick tomorrow, you take tomorrow, or, and then like next time, next time any kid is sick, it's your turn to take the first day. That wasn't necessarily the case, and I think it was because I was also the lower ranking of the two of us. But then I, at least once I got to Little Rock, my my supervisor, one of my master sergeants started giving that a little bit of push back. He's like, ah, No, she's not doing this every single time. Like, there's another, there's another parent to this. Like, they're, he's going to start chipping in a little more. But yeah, it was really, it was really 01:29:00hard to try and mesh that family life in with the active duty. Even when it came to, oh my gosh, I was on maternity leave. And because I was, I was Taso, I was the person who was sending our cycles. I wasn't the only person who could technically do it. And I had, before I went on maternity leave, created, SOPs, Standard Operating Procedure binders that basically walked through with pictures and explanations. I've told you how, you know, I could be. You can imagine how beautiful these guides were that walked someone through how to do my job. And so, I'm like here, because, I'm, you only got six weeks at the time for maternity leave. And then if you wanted anything else, you could take you can take your personal time, but you can only get up to eight weeks. So you can take your six weeks for maternity and then two weeks a year, personal leave,you got to come back to eight weeks. And I was getting phone calls while I was on maternity leave, of which I didn't go on bed rest or anything, I worked until the day I had my kid. So, for most of, actually for all of mine, they were all 01:30:00induced. My first one was like a week late, but I worked until the day I went into the hospital and I would be getting phone calls while I was on maternity leave to come [send??] cycles. And I'm like, even when I had surgery on both of my legs at the same time and I was walking like with crutches, like a weird, like a elephant tee tee teeter totter thing [inaudible]. Um, I would be getting calls to come in off my convalescent leave to just send cycles. Like, I'm not the only person that can do this! Like, come on, guys, you got to still kind of like, respect that personal professional boundary. I get it. I'm active duty. There is no real personal time. I took leave for it. I'm on my personal time. Leave me alone.

ROWELL: Right.

WHITE: But yeah, I would definitely have to come in for from like for off of maternity leave to send cycles. Then I get questions asked and then when I came back after my eight weeks, and for people who aren't familiar, this was a different Air Force than where it is now. We didn't have lactation rooms. The 01:31:00men thought that you could go pump in the bathroom. I'm sorry. Do you prepare your food in the bathroom? That's disgusting. Now, granted, we had an older building and it had, I don't know if it was like actual lockers at one time. So you would go into the door, but you did actually have a few little like gym lockers on the one wall because you had like a little kind of annex room before you actually got to the back area where the stalls were. Like you had a couch in there. And I'm like, I'm still not going to go pump in the bathroom. That's gross. So they had a hard time trying to find spots for us to pump. And then there were a few of us that had kids. And I'm just not understanding that, you know, if your kid is in the daycare. So that's the CDC, the Child Development Center, or with one of their affiliated, like, um, licensed professionals that do it out of their home on base, you know, you're supposed to be pumping as often as your baby eats, which is like every 2 hours. So, of course, me back in 01:32:00my job where I'm one deep apparently. I don't know how I ended up getting in so many one deep slots.

ROWELL: Um, can you say what that is?

WHITE: Oh, just, one deep meaning there was, there was no one else who--I didn't work on a team with, you know, one other, one other airman who could, you know, do the job that I was doing when I was gone. It was just me.

ROWELL: Okay. But so, but every 2 hours.

WHITE: Yeah. So, like, every 2 hours you're trying to go and pump because you just need to sit here and keep up your milk supply for your child. And it was just, um, it got taxing after a while. You're like, Oh my gosh, It's just again, like, didn't you just do this? And it would take like 20 minutes or so to do it, and I was like I had to invest in like a double pump. And I'm sitting here like, you feel like a cow back here [laughs], Like I'm trying as fast as I can.

ROWELL: Right.

WHITE: Like, they're like, Well, can't you do that on your lunch? I'm like, No. Yeah, some of the female leadership like came to bat. But I mean, when some of the other male leadership is, you know, high- ranking, they don't really--I'm 01:33:00like, you guys all have kids?

ROWELL: Right.

WHITE: It, it doesn't make sense. So, yeah, that was that was always a hard thing for me. And then I ended up always starting to dry out, like almost within a month or so of going back to work, 'cause I didn't have enough time to pump, so my kids never made it past. five months. And I was probably like almost dried out, like around four and a half or five. And then it was just like whatever I had saved when I was at home. So it was always that was always kind of like an issue for me, feeling like, um, like you were made to feel guilty for the family that you had. I'm like, why aren't you guys made to feel guilty?

ROWELL: Right.

WHITE: Why is it always the--Why is it always the women?

ROWELL: Yeah. And you mentioned that there was a six month period of post-natal.

WHITE: Yeah.

ROWELL: And then you had to take your PT test.

WHITE: Yeah. Six month turnaround that. Oh my gosh. There is so much stress that I had. Actually, I know some of my friends right now. If you talk about the, um, 01:34:00the issues that some of the military like Air Force, Navy, that they're really starting to see now or in the past few years, that stuff like that actually perpetuated eating disorders, um, for some of the branches, or some people would have anxiety or depression whether they wanted to. You still had the stigma around it, so people didn't want to go get seen. And then sometimes when they did, then they wouldn't take their medication because some of the medications that they were put on cause you to gain weight and they won't be able to make their PT test. And so at a point in time, for a while, if you had failed, I mean, it would mess you up. If you failed the PT test, you were on everybody's radar. You were, you know, you need to be at squadron PT. You need to be doing your individual PT, you're doing you know, you're getting a referral EPR [Enlisted Performance Report]. So you're kind of in trouble. So we might not, you know, promote you, we might not put on your your performance report that we're going to put you at a five for like the best of the best. This is now 01:35:00going to affect your promotion ability. And it's for for running pushups and sit ups. And like I never understood that for the, for the PT, how they did it, like off of a BMI or anything. Even when I came out of basic, the tiniest I have ever been, I still going to need my BMI for my height. And so I'm about like 5'6", 5'6 1/2'' and I was 155 lbs. when I came out of basic, and I was still too big for my--according to the BMI. And I'm like, there's no way, I could be anorexic when I was [that??], but there's no way. Why? Why are we doing all of this and affecting people's careers off of this archaic system that so many, you know, medical and and scientists, scientific areas and professionals have have said that it's not, this should not be the be all end all to what you measure your physical fitness for. And I mean, for me, it would just be like the 01:36:00conversations of, like, of course, we're military. You have the real option to get deployed. And being in a combat zone where you would really have to have someone who could carry you out of someplace while maybe you're returning fire. That's a real, real thing. And I would look at some of maybe like our lieutenants, lieutenants are always in shape. The lieutenants who, but they're like, stick thin, and like, oh, yeah, Lieutenant So-and-so can, you know, they can run this and they can do that. Like, yeah, they can't drag me anywhere though. Of course, they have to be able to run that fast. They're not going to be able to take me with them. They have to sprint to go get help and come back. No, I want to go with Sergeant So-and-so, who is, you know, 6'3", can't pass this test for anything because he's nothing but muscle. And he could actually put me in a fireman carrier, one man carrier, and I'm going to sit here and return fire on his back while he gets me out of someplace like, Yeah, let me I'm going to deploy with that person, that one is who I want to go with. But yet 01:37:00you're going to sit here and penalize that same person just because, Oh, their neck is too thick or they're not passing their waist measurement, or they don't they're not within the weight. Really. So yeah, the fact that that just kind of like haunted me after I had kids. And honestly, some, some women, some active duty members, some reserve members, you sometimes are told, Can't pass your PT test? You can always get pregnant. But, at the same time, on the other end, you can have people like, Oh, you didn't think you could pass, so you got pregnant? Like you can't win [laughs]. It's ridiculous. You couldn't win either way. And then maybe you wanted to take extra time to like, go to your PT or something, and they're like, No, we need you in the office. It's like, What do you hope to do? And then when I got to Arkansas and I ended up, I literally ended up getting 01:38:00diagnosed with asthma like a month or two after we got there. And they couldn't figure out, or they didn't do the tests or whatnot to figure out what was inducing my asthma. They couldn't figure it out. And for probably like a year and a half, we were back and forth about trying to figure out, you know, medicines, different things. At one point, they decided they were gonna take my birth control out. They said, We don't know if this could be affecting whatever it is. And I was like, Okay. Okay. So my husband at the time and I decided, really. Well. We want another kid eventually, like do we just do it now or something like that? But since they couldn't figure anything out, they put me on a no-running waiver for three years.

ROWELL: Wow!

WHITE: And so, basically, within your PT, it's it's a four-minute run. I don't remember the name of the form, but it's just a one page form that's from the medical group. And basically it gives all of your personal information and then 01:39:00a huge box that gives like a descriptor, a diagnosis or anything that and what you can and can't do for physical fitness, what you're cleared for, what you're not cleared for. And this can go down, specifically for me, it was like, um, for squadron runs or like squadron formations, you're usually standing at attention or at ease for an extended period of time. In my, in my waiver, I could not stand for more than 15 minutes. I was not allowed to run. Period. If I did my physical fitness test, I had to walk or I was exempt. Well, then that alters how much weight your other components have. So, yeah, you might not have to run, but your push ups, your sit ups, they continue to do that and your waist tape--and your weight have higher weight. So take it with a grain of salt, I guess. But then you have those same people who are like, Oh, you're starting to gain weight. Yeah, I wonder why? I can't run, but, like you won't let me do it. And 01:40:00then if you even like hop, skip and a jump, you know, if you're at squadron PT and you're kind of like, Oh, maybe I can jog. They're like, Don't you dare go faster than that. That's running. Because if you are found that you're going against those waivers, you can get in trouble. [Whispers] What do you want me to do? So I would have doctors sit here and suggest, Oh, well, you can go swim. Where? I'm at work for 10 to 11 hours a day. My kids are at the daycare for the entirety of the daycare time. When am I going to do this during the day when the pool is open? And then also, Oh, yes, I sometimes go to work on weekends. When is this going to happen? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, me either. If you could give me actual suggestions, I would happily, willingly, do that. I would love to lose weight. You guys aren't letting me actually do anything that really gets my heart up enough to shed anything. But yet I'm supposed to be okay with it.

ROWELL: Right. And it affects your career prospects.

WHITE: Right.

ROWELL: And also, like women going through childbirth changes their body composition.

WHITE: Right. And that was the other thing. They weren't. I mean, it was now it's so much better. You get you get more time for maternity leave. But yeah, it was, you know, trying to have people understand that, technically, I think it was that like the medical community classified childbirth as a trauma. It is. And you're supposed to have about two years to recover after you had a baby. Now, I'm not putting that on anyone else butv I got pregnant in a short period of time, like that that's me and my husband and how it all how it all worked out. But I guess for me, at least, as someone who isn't a medical medical professional, well it took me nine months to get here. Like, we should at least get the same amount of time to to get back. It was so much pressure. I mean, I remember I remember doing probably some unsafe things to try and get where I needed to to make me tapes. I know some of them like, aren't there anymore, but 01:42:00they used to have like one of these, like a Hollywood, like 48-hour cleanse diet and you would get from like a Walgreens or something and you were only allowed to drink this bottle with mix with the water for 48 hours and it would basically be like detox and try and flush everything. But you're also drinking other water as you you just just flush everything out. And I just remember calling up my my father, who is a martial artist. And I'm like, okay, you need to, I need like helping when I have my baby. Like, is there anything else I can be sitting here trying to do? I was trying to work out. I was trying to get back to where--we were sitting in saunas for, like, way more than probably the recommended time you take, like, Abilene. So it's like a makeup remover, it opens up your pores. Like, Take that. And I don't know if you've ever heard of people taping their waists. So basically you put Abilene, but not just on your waist, like I would 01:43:00put it like everywhere. And then tape your waist with Saran wrap, and you could either go to sleep that way,or what I used to do is go work out or I'd go in a sauna suit and go workout, to where when I was done, I could go like this and I had like water dripping, like, not just dripping, pouring out of like my sleeve and then your shower and you drop like a solid 5 lbs. or so. But yeah, probably, probably is not the safest. But I mean, you really kind of felt like you were back between a rock and a hard place and I mean--[sighs] I did have some issues where sometimes it wasn't going well. Like I would be passing in PT tests down to what I needed to do. And I mean, I would get called into like my first sergeant's office or something like that. And he's like, you know, I remember him specifically saying, Oh, well, it sounds like it was your lack of planning. 01:44:00And I'm just like, Sir, I'm trying. Like, I also, unfortunately, my marriage wasn't doing too well at the time, too. I had a lot of stress because I was I was sitting there working at my second base and at the first base sometimes we were usually undermanned, a lot of things across crossed across military borders and it's the same for all jobs. And you're working longer hours, You had less time at home. You didn't really have, you know, discharge time, um, like downtime. My spouse preferred to work and he was a shift worker. So, like, he preferred second or third shift. So I'm sitting here getting one, two or three kids ready by myself in the morning, getting them to the daycare, getting me to PT before 7 am, getting to work, working for like nine, 10 hours, going and getting them, going home, doing whatever. And it was like, I'm doing the best I can. But I wasn't the only woman who was feeling like that. And there was so much pressure and just built on like that anxiety and that perpetuation of possibly depression and just not having good mental health. Which was ironic 01:45:00because of course the Air Force was so big on mental health [laughs]. I was like, I think we need to reassess a little bit what we're what we're doing and how things might be affecting, what what ingredients might be going in here to be affecting people's mental health, especially especially women, post- You know. Post-pregnancy and how we are supporting them being integrated back into into physical fitness for Air Force as a whole. So yeah, that was aways. That was always an issue.

ROWELL: Hmm.Thank you for sharing that.

WHITE: Yeah.

ROWELL: And do you feel that, um, people with authority were aware that this was happening and that they're aware of not just people missing their, you know, not meeting their PT requirements, but any of the reasons they might be missing them or things they might have been doing to try to meet those requirements?

WHITE: I do think leadership was aware. I mean, they had to be because, I mean, if you you would do like a practice PT test, like a few weeks to like a month before your actual PT test to kind of gauge where you were. And so they would they would go off of there. But then also, if you did fail, then of course it's going through. I never failed one. Um, excuse me, but it is it would be going through the leadership for everything to get signed for you to basically be able to do next steps because you were only authorized to do, to fail so many. I think at one time when I was at Little Rock, it was like four PT tests within your ca--like within a certain time frame of your career. So I think like 24 months or something like that where you're taking every few months that, I mean, so you could get kicked out relatively quickly if you continue to fail after fail after fail. I don't. I don't recall many. Many of the leadership coming and 01:47:00kind of sitting down and being like, Hey. What's going on, I guess. Yeah. And really kind of having that conversation and meaning it not just I'm going to kind of put this front out there like I care so I can say that. Oh, yeah, no. I talked to Airman White. We had this conversation. Did you actually go back and actually touch more on something that was beyond just the surface or, you know, or not? Yeah, I don't really recall so many of them, especially at my second base, unfortunately, I'm really kind of delving into more information for myself or any of my other peers who are male or female. There was also a male who was having a hard time with his PT too. Um, that really kind of seemed to kind of be like, Hey, let's get you into some some resources, some support so we can get this back on track. But I mean, they didn't really have the manpower to do this, 01:48:00but it didn't really seem like they were putting that much effort forth to help in keeping us.

ROWELL: Hmm. And you said that one person said that they felt you weren't planning adequately.

WHITE: Yeah. My first sergeant said that. I was really upset with that one [both laugh].

ROWELL: Seems like you're doing a lot of planning.

WHITE: Yeah? Yeah.

ROWELL: [Inaudible] to your detriment?

WHITE: Yeah. Just making it seem like. Oh, well, like you're being all lackadaisical, you knew you had a PT test coming up. Like, why aren't you in shape? Like. Okay. How many kids have you pushed out in the last few years? I mean, of course, you're not going to say that to [laughter] a master sergeant, a [??] where--

ROWELL: But that was your feeling?

WHITE: But of course. Yeah, that was the feeling. I mean, definitely, definitely keeping your military bearing and the respect at all times, of course. You might not always have to like the person or what they say, but you're going to respect the person for their rank. So, yeah, I just felt like it was it was a hard spot to be in. I don't know, for my third son, after I had him a few months after I was sent to Airman Leadership School, and I was like, okay, try to sit here and 01:49:00work out. Can I even wear like my maternity stuff anymore? [I'm trying to look in the ranks to see all of that. And then just having that stress of having a baby and like in my marriage, unfortunately, was not in the best place. And I have to pass Airman Leadership School and I still have to [??] for a PT test that I have in like a month or so. Okay. So yeah, it's just like compounding stress because some people were supportive and some people weren't.

ROWELL: Quite quickly. You mentioned maternity clothes. Did you have a different uniform that you wore during your pregnancy? What was it like for you, maybe especially your first maybe in the workplace, kind of gearing up for that change in your life?

WHITE: Yeah. So we did have different uniforms for maternity. They did give you, once you got everything approved from your doctor that you were pregnant and they had a certain form that they had to send to personnel, get everything signed over and then they sent it to finance so you can get your your clothing allowance to go buy maternity clothes [laughter]. Oh, so you have to go buy your 01:50:00uniforms. It's just the same, like, ABU print that we had for Airman Battle Uniform, and then except it didn't, it wasn't like cinched or fixed or anything. It actually had two little ties that could go out as you grew. And then your ABU pants. They didn't have a waist, a fixed waistband anymore that you had to wear your belt. It was all plastic and it was beautiful. And then you had this green elastic part that was technically for your stomach for the further you grew. Oh, my goodness gracious. For someone who had to spend, got to spend almost three full years of maternity, it was awesome' like wearing pajamas to work. They were the most comfy. You didn't have to tuck in your sand t-shirt. You just, I mean you'd have it without anything to tuck it in. It looked ridiculous. If you did, you looked like you had a turtle on the front of you, but so you could just have it over, you know, over your pants if you took the ABU top off. But, then at the end of the day when we wear clothes, you know, you're just waddling around. You're all comfy as can be [laughs]. For your blues it was, it was the same. You 01:51:00had to have all your rank and everything the same as when you when you had your normal ABU's on, or your blues. But that was the same. It had, um, the stitching was different, so it came out. So you had more, uh, more fabric at the front for as you, as you grew throughout the pregnancy. And then the same thing for the pants. They were still like the dress slacks that we had, but the top was all elastic in the band and then the elastic belly part, too. So. And then, of course, if you afraid of you got into your pregnancy, you could get cleared to wear tennis shoes after a certain certain point of time. I think I did for my first one, I did not for my second or third. I was in my combat boots the whole time. Just because I like combat boots. I'm more comfortable in them then anything else. But, but yeah, maternity was--it's a fine uniform.

ROWELL: Yeah. And what was the reception of people at work? You know, your peers. Your, you know, your peers. What, how did they react?

WHITE: When I was pregnant?

ROWELL: Yeah. Knowing that you were, you're going to have a child, that that was a change happening in your life.

WHITE: As far as my peers went, I'd say all of them were supportive. I mean, especially at Scott. I think once I got to Little Rock, um, I was older. So.

ROWELL: How old at that point?

WHITE: I was, when I got down there, I was about to be older. I was about to be 23 [laughs].

ROWELL: [Inaudible]

WHITE: Um, yeah, I was about to be 23. But I mean, I think sometimes that--

ROWELL: [Inaudible]

WHITE: --experience ages you differently. And I think I think some 23-year olds in the military, not all, um, but some of them are a lot more experienced and things and have a lot more responsibilities on their shoulders than some 23-year olds in the civilian world. So, um, a lot of my peers at the time, because I had been a senior airman for so long, they were younger than I was. Um, so, and I 01:53:00had, you know, I was established, I was married, I had two kids already. So I don't think for them they're like, Oh my gosh, Airman White's going to leave. I'm like, Don't worry, I got this. I have all the stuff for my job covered. So they knew that I was going to have that covered. I don't think they were really worried, especially if they had to take anything over from my job. I'm like, Don't worry, I'm going to get you trained. And, like I would sit there and schedule that with them to make sure that they were comfortable, because I don't want to come back to, you know, a cluster off of my maternity leave and clean. I don't want you to barely be, you know, having your nose above the water while I'm on maternity leave and then come back and I have this mess. No, I did that once--I'm not-- there's no way I was doing it again. So I was like, You're going to be good. Trust me, I'm taking care of you because it takes care of me. But yeah, definitely. Otherwise, especially at Scott, a lot of them they were either married and their spouses are maybe pregnant or they had toddlers or they were like my female sergeants that were still friends and mentors, but they were pregnant as well. So everyone was really, um, they were really okay with it. 01:54:00They were very supportive. Even the other higher staff sergeants, technical sergeants, and I thought they were supportive of it. I don't recall really getting any type of of real issue except for probably those those two, one being a first sergeant and one being a high-rank officer. But everyone else was really good with it.

ROWELL: And did you live on base up at the time that you were at Scott?

WHITE: Um, both [laughs].

ROWELL: Yeah. What was that like for you, for your family?

WHITE: It was, I lived on base in a dorm, and then I had moved off into my first apartment, with Victor. We lived off base for a year in our apartment, then moved to a townhome for a year. And then we actually had our son a week before and you can have a complimentary move on base. While we just decided that base housing was nicer than what we were renting at the time. So military actually came in complimentary, and moved our house, so packed everything up. And I 01:55:00remember being at home on maternity leave with Orion, and a man and a woman came in and they packed up my whole house, top to bottom, in 8 hours, like my dishes that were in the dishwasher were like all packed up. They're like, Hey, do you have everything that you want? I'm like, Yes, ma'am. Packing everything up. They were good, moved everything on base. And then we moved on base and we were there for about a year before, before we ended up PCSing [Permanent Change of Station] in Little Rock. So the base life was great. I mean, Scott Air Force Base, if I could live there normally, I probably would. Uh, again, I'm probably a little biased with my first station, but I mean, it was really the culture was great, the people were great. I mean, the base is set up really nice. It has really, really good amenities or I guess, you know, some people might expect more from [inaudible]. You got it. You've got like two gyms. You've got, you know, all this other stuff, shopping, entertainment, that chapel. You know, you're in close proximity to a lot of other a lot of other places around here. So and it was good security for the base, too. So, um, I enjoyed living on base. A lot of 01:56:00good people in the neighborhoods, a lot of good parks, a lot of young families. So it was really good if you had those little kids. You could kind of, you know, make those other connections that might not have necessarily been in your specific quadrant. So I enjoyed living on base and off base. But honestly, I think I preferred living on base a little bit more.

ROWELL: Mm-hmm. And then before we move on to talk about Little Rock, is there anything else that you want to touch on about your experience at Scott Air Force Base? Any memories, anything like that?

WHITE: Mm.

ROWELL: Maybe like the process of trying to move to Little Rock?

WHITE: Oh, goodness gracious. I was pregnant at the time. Of course. No, I. Yeah, I had to get over like November-December of '12. Our second son was born in August. So, I, my ex-husband, he was the one who decided to retrain. So we, 01:57:00he went to Texas for, I believe it was five months, about right after our oldest turned one. And then I finished out my pregnancy with our middle son and then had to finish getting ready to to leave after that. So we coordinating, between him and myself, he was down in Texas, I was in Illinois, and it was just trying to coordinate with the realtor. He was doing all this stuff with USAA, trying to get everything for the home loan together, figuring out what kind of budget we were looking at. And then I was, you know, we were looking out, looking at Zillow every chance I got after work to try and figure out where we could go and trying to catch him whenever he wasn't in school to try and figure out which ones do we want to look at. And we were trying to schedule a time that we could go down there on a weekend and kind of have several lined up because we didn't want to be in transition housing, for basically they put you in the in the lodging. We didn't want to be there for very long. Once we got down to Little 01:58:00Rock, we wanted to kind of get there and be established, 'cause the sooner you can get your house the sooner you can get your household goods, sooner. We're not living out of suitcases and we had two little kids under two. So, um, so yeah, I mean, otherwise, besides actually like finding the house, I mean, everything from the military was, was great. I mean, so with the moving and with transportation. I didn't like the drive down there, but that was for personal reasons. I don't do well on highways. But, yeah, the drive otherwise was was okay. We made it in one piece and got down there, got put in lodging. Um, yeah, it was fine once we got down there. We got our house pretty quickly after. I think we closed by the end of December in '12 and then, so, yeah, January of '13 we were a nice family of four in our brand new house in Little Rock, Arkansas.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. Uh, and then and how--you stayed at Scott until 2012?

WHITE: Yeah, correct.

ROWELL: That's correct. Okay. Um, and then, uh, so, what unit were you then 01:59:00serving with when you went to Little Rock?

WHITE: 19th Comptroller Squadron at Little Rock Air Force Base.

ROWELL: Air Mobility Command?

WHITE: Correct.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: Air Mobility Command.

ROWELL: And then, uh, did your responsibilities change much? Were they about the same, when you moved down to, over to Arkansas?

WHITE: They were about the same. Um. Trying to think [inaudible] when I got down there. By that time, I had worked a majority of, if not all of the jobs that you could have had down in our financial management [place??]. So it was kind of, like, just where they wanted me to go. And I had, again, I was an older airman. So I ended up working down there in both their travel team. I was the head of their travel team for a little while. I was working in special actions for a little bit and then I was the head of the customer service counter. Um. So yeah, 02:00:00I mean, daily responsibilities were pretty much the same. The only way that they did change is because I had more experience than a lot of my other peers. I was given more of the, of the leadership analyst assessment, that higher part of checking and double-checking everyone else's does work with that job. So it was my work. Plus, let me check yours to make sure you're doing it right. So it required, you can now got to that part where you were staying at work a little bit longer too. So which I had always been doing that anyway. So it wasn't, it wasn't a huge change. Just different squadron.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. Uh, and then what was your rank when you came to Little Rock?

WHITE: I was senior airman, So E-4.

ROWELL: Okay, and you had mentioned about giving up some opportunities while you were at Scott?

WHITE: I did.

ROWELL: Can you talk a bit about that before we get much further?

WHITE: Yeah, no. So being military, military couple, um, early enough on because 02:01:00of my husband at the time had outranked me, we decided that it would make more sense because he was going to get further than I was sooner than I was, and once you started climbing up the echelon you were going to need a bachelor's degree. So we had decided that he would go to school first, and then I would go. I didn't know what I wanted to go for. And for me, I need to kind of have that that goal in mind so I can best apply myself. And I didn't think that both of us working full-time. Plus I was having, again, two kids and both going to school at the same time. I think that that's too much. We're gonna be spreading ourselves too thin. Something's going to, a ball is going to drop, and no offense to men, it',s probably going to be somehing on my end. So, I like, I don't want to I don't want to use my T.A. [tuition assistance] or anything like that and kind of mess anything up. By then my school would have to be the one thing I would drop. I can't drop my job and I can't drop our kids. So. So that would be on my end. So I was like, You go first, you get your bachelor's degree, 02:02:00I'll sit here, help hold down the family, everything that, do my job. And then when you're done, I'll go. And so that's what we did. And he graduated. Um, he graduated in November of '15. But in that, also interim, um at one time or another, I didn't know if if I was going to stay in. Um, so I did study for my staff sergeant, who I only tested with once before I left Little Rock, or before I left Scott to go to Little Rock. And I was pregnant. I was pregnant with my oldest son. And I cannot remember what I ate for breakfast that morning, much less whatever I was reading in my P.D.G [Professional Development Guide] and my S.K.T., which is a skills, a Skills Knowledge Test or assessment. So the PDG was basically everything you need to know for like the Air Force. And the S.K.T was stuff that you needed to know for your specific job. And I remember going and I tested and I missed cutoff by five points. So I was like, It's fine. It's first 02:03:00test. It's not a big deal. So then we P.C.S.ed, and once I got down to Little Rock, it was kind of like--We were already doing military. We were making pretty good money at the time. Also, they were locking our career field. So if you made staff sergeant, you couldn't get out, you couldn't retrain. And I still from, you know, the recruiters telling me you could be in finance for a few years and then retrain. That was still in the back of my mind. And I wanted to see if I could possibly do that. So I knew I'm like, if I test and make rank, I can't do that. And I am in finance. Um, also, if I decided to get out, which was still kind of up in the air at the time, um. Whether it become the end of my enlistment or because, you know, we have kids and I decided to get out, I personally--no issue to anyone who does this--I personally had an issue with 02:04:00studying and testing for staff sergeant, and then you maybe you pass and get a line number, then you know that you're separating. They don't give that line number to someone else. You take it. So I'm like, well, they have a finite amount of staff sergeant and line numbers that they're trying to get. And if you sit here and take, say, five of you, they're only giving like a thousand out, like Air Force-wide. Five of you decide to get out. 20 of you decide to get out. They're not putting that down to the other senior men that tested for staff. You technically took that rank with you. So that's 5, 20 some staff sergeants we are now without that they were planning on having. And to me, that kind of seemed like it cheated the Air Force out of the manpower that they needed. And the other senior airman who, like, really studied and just missed that cut off for whatever reason, and they're staying in and they could have that rank. So to me, 02:05:00that was I was like, I'm like, no, I'm not, not not saying that I'm, you know, God's gift, or, test, amazingly. But I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to put myself in a position to possibly have that happen and take that away from anyone. So I decided not to study very much for the next few years. Uh, to the disappointment of some of my sergeants, one of my master sergeants at Little Rock was pissed at me my last year because I never missed it by very much. I think the most I ever missed it was 12 points. And my last year I missed it five, like a five again. And he's like. Did you even study? No, because I was getting out and I was pretty sure I was getting out.

ROWELL: Did he understand?

WHITE: [Pause] Yes, and no. When I told him, you know, because along those years, people are like, If you're already doing the work as a staff sergeant, 02:06:00you might as well get paid for it. And I was like, No, because I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to be in that position yet . I don't I don't want to be locked in or, you know, I already have enough on my plate. And I, at that time, I was looking at the issues with asthma and it was a mandatory MEB [Medical Evaluation Board] board every year. And I didn't know if I was going to have my job next year. So I was like, I just I just don't need that right now. And so, yeah, he he kind of understood when I explained it to him, that I'm like, about my personal thing with, you know, possibly taking a line number from someone who could be in. And he's like, So you're telling me that if you had even cracked a book and studied for like a week or two, you could be a staff sergeant right now. And I was like, I could. But I guess we'll never know. well, he didn't talk to me for, like, three days. He was pissed [both laugh]. But I mean, because he wanted, he also wanted me to stay in too, and he would sit there and try and try and talk me into it. And I was just like, 02:07:00No, it's it's my time. I'm done.

ROWELL: So. So before you decided that, you still had aspirations to go into the medical and mental health field in the Air Force. Is that correct?

WHITE: I did, yes. Which actually kind of takes me to actually what I'm doing for a career field now. But I. I didn't like the stigma that mental health had at the time. And I really wanted to go into like the mental-health-specific [med??] group career field portion of it. And there was actually a spot where you feel like retrain for that. But then with, unfortunately I waited too long with my, I think I was like C-coded. I don't know exactly what it means, but for my specific code, because I had asthma and I had a mandatory MEB board, you couldn't retrain.

ROWELL: So not only did it not allow you to retrain, but you had to, your career was year to year?

WHITE: Yes.

ROWELL: To post [duty??]

WHITE: I was basically put on, like you're kind of at that chopping block every year to kind of like a stop-go, like, oh, are you going to go, no, we can't go too much in progression and make too many plans because I don't know if this 02:08:00time next year I am going to have my job. But, yep, it put me on restrction. I was medically disqualified from Reserve or Guard so I couldn't even continue my career as a civilian if I wanted to. And I know I gave my my commander some stipulation. If I had, there was a conversation I remember having with him that I was contemplating trying to re-enlist. And I was like, All right, maybe I just, maybe I just re-enlist. Maybe I try to go for staff. Maybe this is what I'm supposed to be doing, because I really had no idea at that point. And I remember him telling me, he's like, Well, if I let you re-enlist, all of this medical stuff needs to go away. I'm like, Call me out. Please, if you can illuminate how this is going to happen, I would I would love to be able to run. I mean, I don't like it, but I would like the option. And [inaudible] like I don't think that's how it works, necessarily. So yeah, it really kind of, I 02:09:00couldn't, I was blocked. I, every door and window was closing. I couldn't retrain. I couldn't do a special duty. I couldn't--a special duty, like you kind of go outside of your career field for a few years and do another job with another squadron for whatever it is, and then you kind of come back. So it's kind of like a break. So I couldn't do a special duty, I couldn't retrain, I couldn't do Guard, I couldn't do Reserve. I couldn't stay without conditions and stipulations. So it seemed like the only thing I could do was leave.

ROWELL: And so you mentioned the asthma, earlier. Um, can you talk a bit about what happened with that? What, what, when you found that out, what happened afterwards?

WHITE: So we got down to Little Rock in December of 2012, and I remember January after the holidays, I was with, you know, my brand new squadron. We were doing squadron PT inside and I just remember we were on the upper track running 02:10:00because, of course, PT test was coming up and I couldn't breathe properly. And I remember our senior master sergeant at the time, he had he had gotten there around the same time I had. So he was new too. And I was just trying to, I'm like, Sir, I can't. I can't take deep enough breaths. Like, this is really weird. I've never had this before. And he's like, All right, you know what? You need to go to med group. So I ended up going to med group and we ended up having some referrals, um, get put through. And a few weeks later, so I ended up, I'm going and getting those referrals actually done and come to find out that I had asthma. So I, I was 24 [??] after that diagnosis. I'm like, wait, what?! I've never had asthma a day in my life. And then come to find out from the physician's assistant, who was my primary care manager, so my PCM at the time, is that Little Rock was known to give people who either already had existing or 02:11:00didn't, and establishing asthma or allergies. You know, and can I move. Like, I don't want this, please. Thank you. But that wasn't--I actually inquired about that to the personnel assistant and I was like, we just got here, but now I have a medical issue. Like, can we, I never had this at Scott. Can we move somewhere further north or something? Like, is this geographical, something along those lines? And it was basically told to me that I couldn't get a base, a preference or a B.O.P., for some reason, even though I had never had one, usually for senior airman and below, or even staff sergeants and below, within a certain timeframe, you get like one base of preference where you can put in for, Hey, I would like to go here. Now granted it's not I was going to get like accepted, but you could, you could opt for it, you could try and then if it gets approved, you get to P.C.S. to that base. As long as there's a job for you there, within your AFSC. And I was told that I wouldn't be able to do a B.O.P. for whatever reason, and basically that my, I would have had to separate, and then my husband 02:12:00would have had to put in. And then if we got approved, we would have moved. I'm like Yep, but I'm a civilian! And I don't think that. Did you just hear what came out of your mouth? It doesn't make sense to me, can you [??]? So, there wasn't really an option for that. So we were just there. So then I had my asthma and then they never really found out what it was because it wasn't completely exercise- nduced, it was kind of environmental plus exercise and, weird. But unfortunately it caused me to pass out a few times and I had to go to the emergency room a few times. And yeah, it put a real damper on my military career and in essence ended it and now I'm a disabled veteran with it's service-connected.

ROWELL: Right. And so this was, you found a lot of this out right at the beginning?

WHITE: Right. Right. When we got down there. Yeah.

ROWELL: Yeah. Got to Little Rock.

WHITE: Right when we got to Little Rock.

ROWELL: And so, um, you also mentioned, in addition, that the working environment was different at Little Rock versus at Scott. Um, and, can you kind of talk a bit about that?

WHITE: For the working environment?

ROWELL: Yeah, the working environment, the, um, the workplace dynamics and also maybe the attitudes of some of the--

WHITE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Little Rock was not as diverse as Scott was. Now, I mean, we did have different ethnicities and everything that nationalities, but it really wasn't as noticeable as Scott and then some--Whether we had them down off the financial management flight or upstairs at the financial analysis. Then a lot of times people were deployed or TDY [Temporary Duty Assignment] or 02:14:00something like that. Um, and you had your leadership that was like fewer and further between that were, you know, any minorities of color. So there was definitely that lack of representation. And, of course, within anyone's military career, you have that possibility for, you know, people not always, you know, to be perfect on your job. Mistakes are going to happen, especially if you're understaffed. And I'm not saying that I didn't make mistakes, You know, of course, no one's perfect. Um, but it did seem like at some points, unfortunately, that, um, that there were some, whether it was like biases or, uh, preference or--

ROWELL: Implicit bias?

WHITE: Yeah, Implicit bias possibly--

ROWELL: --or specific bias.

WHITE: Yeah, specific bias, maybe potentially racism. I'm not going to rule it out. I just know specifically myself as well as another peer that actually is still one of my best friends. She was actually legal at the time, but she had, used to be finance and she had actually retrained out. Uh, she had actually 02:15:00noticed. I was like, Yeah, um, why is it that everyone's kind of missing up, you know, over, in different spans of time? It seems like only the airmen of color are actually getting paperwork for it. Or like in my case, I mean, I had taken over a program from a [counterfeiter??], and it was something that we were getting a lot of pushback from. And it was just it was one of those slow-going projects that you weren't really going to be able to make a lot of progress week by week as you are. Or every few days, if you're having meetings like metric meetings on on the progress and status update. And when she was in charge of it, the commander was a lot more lenient. Like, Oh, no, like, That's fine. I know you're working hard. And I just, I was in the same meeting, but for a different responsibility. And then I ended up getting tasked with her job because she moved to something else. And it was about the same level of progression. And then sometimes, like, there was a little bit more progression, but it was never 02:16:00good enough. And then I would get called out in the meetings. [Arrow??], we need to do better! You need to be--like, Yes, sir. I will, I will get on that [laughs]. So, I mean, I'm not saying that you didn't have some of those at Scott. I mean, I locked horns with one sergeant before I left a little bit, too, but yeah, it was just more noticeable [inaudible??]

ROWELL: Hmm. Yeah. And you mentioned that you had a colleague who warned you before you went--warned is a strong word, but--

WHITE: Yes!

ROWELL: --who had to discuss with you before you left--

WHITE: [Inaudible]

ROWELL: --that she had an experience--

WHITE: I did.

ROWELL: Is that [ correct??]

WHITE: I had a, I had a hiring sergeant. She had been stationed out at Little Rock previously, years, years before, I think was like five or so years before, because she had been at Scott before I got there, and the Little Rock station for her was for even before that and, yeah, she had, she had given me a friendly 02:17:00warning, I guess, just like a kind of take it with a grain of salt. But she said her and her spouse, they are both minorities and they they very much dislike that base, not just because of some of the attitudes of people on the base, but some of the attitudes about people surrounding the base. Definite some racism down there. I mean, that that's true. We did have I mean, we had base-wide notification sometimes come out. I mean, it was anywhere that you went over, sometimes that's, I don't remember that many times at Scott, but mostly in Little Rock. I think there was a KKK, um, KKK gathering around there sometimes. So I remember some sometimes, like maybe on a Friday or like leading up to like that weekend, you'd get a base-wide notification to go out to just let everyone know, like, I don't care what color, religion, creed you are, I don't want to see any Air Force, you know, from the commander: I don't want to see any Air Force in this area this weekend. I don't care where--No, you're not going 02:18:00anywhere in that direction. I'm like, okay, cool. And then even when my, when my husband and I, of course, we're both minorities, we would decide to come back to Wisconsin to visit my family and we'd have to go through northern Arkansas. There were certain areas--I have nothing against any Arkansans--but there were certain areas that still had some problems that you really not get your gas beforehand and you, you are going straight through. You do not get off the highway. You do not. No. You drive straight through. So yeah, that was, it was interesting. A little bit more nerve- wracking once we had, you know, our kids with us and everything too. And I try to drive at night and just kind of get to where we needed to be [laughs] as fast as we could [laughs] within legal limits [laughs] but as fast as we could.

ROWELL: Yeah. Of course. Of course.Your own safety.

WHITE: Yeah. It was interesting

ROWELL: Yeah, my gosh, I didn't realize that they, um, released, uh, alerts 02:19:00about this and, and that was common enough that that happened in Illinois as well?

WHITE: Mhm. Yeah. I mean I think they would do it like, you know, whenever they have--And I was just using KKK as an, as an example, but that was the one that always--

ROWELL: Stuck on your mind.

WHITE: --stuck out. I mean sometimes when they might have like any type of political things kind of be going on, Like, Hey guys, this could be, this could get to a certain stage, so we just don't want any airmen here. So just don't even be here. I specifically remember for, for the ones for the KKK that were, that would go out, and then actually sometimes I know we had a, one of my husband's airmen who lived not too far from us, like a few miles away, he's a six-foot-four Caucasian guy. Big dude from Nebraska [laughs], like, corn fed--was great. But he, they had, I mean, we all had, like, gates in our fences, in our yards. And I mean, that's just like what all the houses came with and 02:20:00they were out in their yard working and him and his wife and they had a small daughter and they had someone come up and they were talking and they trying to hand out fliers about certain anti-race organizations and talking bad about maybe someone in the community who had some work being done on their house, but maybe the workers were like of Hispanic heritage. And this airman's wife had some Hispanic heritage in her, but she was also mixed, so she could pass for Caucasian. Technically.

ROWELL: Yeah.

WHITE: But he was uncomfortable enough that he told his wife to get in the house. He's like, Get in the house, like, Do not come out right now what I'm am standing here talking to these people. And, yeah, that was like three miles down the road. So, yeah, it was, it was interesting sometimes.

ROWELL: Wow. Yeah. Um, was that something that you expected at all, or was that a learning process, unfortunately, that you went through living there?

WHITE: Unfortunately, I don't want to say it wasn't. It was not expected at all.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: Um. We're in the United States and people still have certain feelings. Um, the Confederate flag is--Is raised up a lot in the South--still. And, I get it, that means different things to different people. For people in the South, that's that's the side that their family fought on. To people in the North, it's a little bit different. To people of color. It's a little bit different. So, even, yeah, now, I mean, you'd be driving to work and you'd see some jacked-up pickup trucks and they'd be toting the Confederate flag and stuff, and it did give you a little--

ROWELL: A little pause?

WHITE: A little pause. Yeah, so it wasn't something that was completely unexpected. But then to get down there and actually, I mean, we didn't have any, 02:22:00any bad experiences, I will say we were fortunate for that. So sorry to anyone who did. But it was. Not expected to have, I guess, those instances especially closer to home. And it was, it hit hard, it hit differently as a parent when you're with a kid [inaudible] at home, not anywhere where I can't see you guys or anything. So I'm not thinking, you know, that anyone would really come at you with any type of malice. And actually we lived in a in a suburb where I had a few of my my husband's airmen was close by. One of my master sergeants was actually just up the road from us, too. So, I mean, we had, we had some people nearby if anything, you know,needed, we need support for anything. But it was just something that was kind of always in the back of your mind.

ROWELL: And you had spent a lot of time and resources getting a house, buying a house in Little Rock?

WHITE: Yes.

ROWELL: Is that correct?

WHITE: Yeah, we we had a house, the northwest, or sorry, northeast of the base. 02:23:00So we were in some of the suburbs. We weren't in a in a city or anything like that. But, and to be honest, most of the people in our community, they were really nice.

ROWELL: Mm hmm

WHITE: I mean, nothing bad against anyone like that. But yeah, we had spent the money on our house and, um, like we had an alarm system and stuff put in and that was the first time I've ever lived with an alarm system. And that was, yeah, I guess that was a learning curve a little bit.

ROWELL: Yeah.

WHITE: Especially because my husband was shift-work at the same time. So usually it was me and the boys home at night by ourselves. So, yeah, it was a, it was interesting.

ROWELL: So in combination with the asthma problems, air pollution maybe, or just the, the issues with asthma that newly developed and some of the workplace tensions and the tension of the community.

WHITE: Yeah [laughs].

ROWELL: [Laughs] And having bought a house. [White laughs] Yeah.

WHITE: It was a lot, yeah.

ROWELL: Like a stressful circumstance.

WHITE: It was a lot for a, for the first few years.

ROWELL: Yeah. Um, and um. You eventually did go to Airman Leadership School, 02:24:00which you mentioned was in 2014.

WHITE: Correct. August of 2014.

ROWELL: So what? Um, it was after your third son was born.

WHITE: It was. Yep, he was born in April of '14.

ROWELL: And then, so, what was that experience like for you, and what prompted that decision?

WHITE: Um that was actually a really fun experience. Um, what prompted that decision? It wasn't me. Um, they needed more. More of that first tier leadership within my squadron. And we had a lot of airmen, a lot of young airmen, and they didn't have enough staff sergeants to mentor everyone. And I was the oldest senior airman, so I was the highest-ranking airman. So then I go [inaudible]. So I came back from maternity leave and one of the, one of the master sergeants upstairs, she actually told me, she said, Congratulations. I'm like, What? What did I do? She's like, Oh, I didn't tell you yet. I'm like, No, ma'am, Good news, 02:25:00bad news. I'm like, okay, good news, bad news. Apparently you said congratulations. So then, yeah, I found out from her that I was going to Airman Leadership School. So I think, I don't even know how many we had in a class. Do have a picture of graduation [??]. Um, but, um, I think we actually had to have at least 20 some people in that class, and I was the only one who didn't have a line number, so that was a little intimidating. So everyone there, because of course you, you study and you make staff sergeant, so you get a line number. So you're a little, you're line number tells you which number you are of promotion. So let's say, you know, okay, I'm [inaudible] out, results come out in March, you can start sewing on in May. So in May we're going to have numbers one through 355. You need to sew on staff sergeant. Okay. In June, we're going to have 356 to 709, so on. So that would indicate, you know, when you get to sew on. And I was the only one who didn't have a line number. So it was kind of 02:26:00a--Not contest necessarily, but sometimes we would have some games where you were testing, like, your knowledge of stuff, and I think some people like they knew they didn't have a line number. So I don't know if it was completely looking down on, but for the most part, I don't really think so. We were pretty, a pretty good group for Airman Leadership School. I created some pretty good friendships there. Um, and uh, yeah, we, we had some good PTs. Unfortunately, I still, I don't know of running waivers. So whenever we had PT, I think that kind of took away from the experience a little bit because you're having, you're having, you know, ruck marches and stuff like that. But and all of us who were on waivers, we had to go on the golf cart behind everyone. So we didn't get to experience that. But then we were also kind of, you feel kind of looked down on like, [whispers] Oh, my gosh, we have to run like three miles, and I am dead. 02:27:00But Airmann White didn't have to and Airman Smith didn't have to and Airman So-and-so didn't have to because you guys are on waivers. [inaudible] You did a great job, though [thumbs up]. Good! [laughs] Oh. So I think. I think that took away from a little bit. But, I mean, we had we had some great stuff. We had, like, volunteer opportunities in the community. We got to learn a lot about ourselves, about each other. Different presentations. We had to lead flights and get tested on that. And, uh. Oh, my gosh, that was so horrible.

ROWELL: What was it?

WHITE: I don't think I've ever been like that nervous before. I don't even know why I was because I had done some flights, of course, leading in basic. I, I have test anxiety. It gets bad sometimes. I will talk myself out of answers, and now I go back and be like, Oh, my gosh, How [inaudible]. I should have just stayed with it. I was so nervous for leading my flight. I kind of like get in my head and overanalyze to the point of I'll make mistakes. Oh my gosh. Sure 02:28:00enough, it was my turn to lead our flight and we had probably like three different little sub flights kind of going. And so you're only meeting like, let's say eight, eight or nine, you know, let's say three or out of three. So you got to size everyone up and you got to get everyone ready. And you have a list of of of points you have to hit. And so you basically have to have this list memorized. So like weeks before you're out on that pad and you are running, like you literally, okay, you have to make this many turns, this many turns, like this many. And you have to figure out how you can get all of that done in your pad in like a certain amount of time and make sure that you hit everything. Don't forget anything. You're not running anyone off the pad because you're getting marks off if that happens. You're not running into any of the other small flights because you're going to get in trouble if you guys run into each other. And I was so nervous. Of course, when you have to salute, everyone knows 02:29:00you so well with your right hand. I had to, I had to [inaudible] face. My instructor was talking to me and she she said, Okay, we're ready to go. And he gave me the all clear to start. And I was so nervous, I don't even know where it came from. I salute with my left hand and it went up and she, her, I've never seen her eyes bug out so much. And I'm like, Oh my goodness [laughter]! She [inaudible whispers] Oh, my goodness! That was so bad! And of course, my flight, which [inaudible] my friends [inaudible] they're trying not to laugh. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to fail! I got everyone through it. I passed it. It was great. But oh, my gosh. It's like the worst thing. I'd never done anything like that in my life. Never since. I have no idea where it came from. It's like a stain on my soul. But yeah, that was, but yeah, Leadership School as a whole, 02:30:00it was, it was good. It was a great experience.

ROWELL: Basically learning like all the skills that you need to be that leader to--

WHITE: Right.

ROWELL: --to make that jump and to be in that that that kind of first, first tier of management.

WHITE: Yeah. When I got back, um [sighs], I got back to my squadron. I got four airmen right now. I was like, Oh, my God--

ROWELL: You got what?

WHITE: I got four airmen. So I was assigned four airmen, so I was their supervisor.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: So all of their, like, annual performance reports. And if anyone was trying to do anything like Airman Below The Zone, which is BTZ. So basically, if they were an Airman First Class, so an E-3, and tried to say that what they had done in their career and in their off-time was enough for them to get promoted sooner, like six months sooner, to senior airman, you had to write that package. And so like all of that stuff I was now in charge of, and I actually, it was a joke with my husband and I at the time, I had more airmen than he did. I'm like, you've been a staff sergeant since we left Scott [laughs]. And I'm sitting here 02:31:00as a senior airman with four airmen, you have, like, two [Rowell laughs]. Um, but yeah, it was, it was a great experience that I was able to take a lot of management and, and other skills, not just to that role, but then after, into my civilian life too.

ROWELL: So was that transition kind of challenging at all? Like were there any, any difficulties there or was it generally pretty smooth?

WHITE: For like getting that role once I got back to the squadron?

ROWELL: Yes. Into--and like transitioning into a supervisory role with people that you were more close to, peers with previously.

WHITE: A little bit, and I think that caveat that that weird, weird transition was unlike other people who would it be a senior airman, and then you would go to Airman Leadership School and then maybe so on. You knew that that other rank was coming and then have that other rank. And so that was just like, Oh, it's just Airman White [there??] Aa hh. Yes, peer. Buuuut, yes, not staff sergeant, 02:32:00not NCO, not noncommissioned officer. Technically, I would have been what we used to call a warrant officer. So it was that middle part. I'm like, okay, so I'm not--I mean, I'm your friend, but I'm not your friend like that here. You got to listen to me, but I still had to listen to them. It was a weird thing. And honestly, I did have one really hard part to me, it was like a kind of an ethical and moral thing. Some of the other my friends that we were senior airman together, they had sewed-on staff and they were coming to me because I was now like a senior airman and had, like, Oh,you can understand now because you've been in Leadership School and stuff like that. Um, I'm not compromising positions, in my opinion, a position that would be kind of a snitch on the lower ranking airman. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm not doing that. So I had three staff 02:33:00sergeants who were all the same rank when I was when I got there. And I like, yeah, I don't I don't care. With all due respect, I'm not I'm not going to do that. So you guys need to come up with an alternative for whatever it is that you, of course, want to be accomplished, because you guys are sitting here with another stripe on your arm and I'm going to sit here and you're going to try and have me be a snitch. And now I'm going to completely cause issues with everyone that is technically my still peer group. So like, you know, that's not going to work. So it was, it was a difficult position at certain times. Um, having that stripe would have been nice. But sometimes that also came with a lot more headaches that I, oh, I'm an airman [laughter], I'm going to go over there. That sounds like a staff sergeant problem [laughs].

ROWELL: Small perks.

WHITE: Yeah, you know, people say E-4 mafia. People stay senior airman for a reason sometimes. So. [whispers: Like, you have to go here].

ROWELL: You used the phrase, "sewed-on". Can you, can you say something about that?

WHITE: Sure. When, when you actually make rank, whether it's time in service or 02:34:00you actually promote through your testing, once you actually have your sew-on date, then you have like this little kind of ceremony thing, and it's up to your squadron, your flight, how big to kind of make it. And, um, you have your, your rank and then you have the new rank that you have coming on, and usually put tape on it, they used to put tacks on it back in the day. You can't do that anymore. Not when I was in here [inaudible], um, and you would have--you could pick two people to tack you on. Some people would have like their their spouses, their kids. Maybe they'd bring their parents down. They'd have some friends at work and you'd have your little kind of ceremony thing. They would they would read, um, actually--

ROWELL: [Laughs] This is [time??]

WHITE: This is time.

ROWELL: It's time. Okay.

WHITE: So actually, so this is my congratulations. This is when I made from airman first class to senior airman. So E-3, E-4. And so basically what they 02:35:00would do is they would, the commander or the officer, because it's the officers kind of lead everything. They would read basically what you're charged with to perform, you know, a skilled technician and trainer and kind of go into detail of what that is. And then they would present it to you. You would salute. They would salute. And then you'd have your people who were going to tack on come up and each one of them has the tape on the back of the new rank, and they set it there and then to tack they will punch you [Rowell laughs]. So that's also nice to see how nice they're going to be. And then usually you kind of have to go through like this gauntlet, but the gauntlet can only be for, made up of people who are that same rank as you. You're in your rank or higher. So for this case, for me, only senior airman or higher and they you walk through and, of course, it's as you can imagine, and you're just getting like punched [laughter] [inaudible]. But, that's what it is for being tacked-on. So. Or sewed-on.

ROWELL: All right. Thank you. Yeah. Um, so, um, can you also talk about earning your associate's degree at Little Rock?

WHITE: Sure. So after it was kind of basically decided that I was going to be separating active duty, I wanted to, a big thing for me was to complete my CCA app, so, my associate's degree through the Community College of the Air Force. And so basically, through basic military training, through technical school, and then through some of the training that you have, uh, while you're at your actual base, you actually go up in your skill level within your AFSC [Air Force Specialty Code]. So like when I mentioned there was a sixth box one, that's the first part. And then as you get higher up that, um, that numerical changes from like a 1 to a 3 to a 5 to a 7 to a 9. And so I wanted to take that training that I had and go finish my associates degree. So I just had to do my five gen eds. 02:37:00So I had figured out, gone to the education office and figured out what I had to do. So between some some [??]. So just kind of getting the books from the library, studying the topic and going and taking a test and see if you pass, get your college credit. Um, along with me actually taking the classes, I was able to finish and I was awarded my actual degree for that in May of 2016.

ROWELL: Um, and before we discussed your separation from the Air Force, is there anything else either from Little Rock or just from your service in general that you want to discuss?

WHITE: Oh. Not that I can think of now.

ROWELL: Okay. We can come back if needed. But I think for now, we're going to take a pause for time and then we'll come right back. All right. So this concludes segment two of the interview with Mariah White on November 14th, 2022.

[End of segment two] [Beginning of segment three]

ROWELL: This begins Segment three of the interview with Moriah White on November 14th, 2022. So I asked you before the break whether there was anything else that you kind of had thought about that you want to talk about.

WHITE: [Sighs] No, I can't think of anything else.

ROWELL: So, let's move on to talking about your separation from the Air Force. So when did you leave the Air Force?

WHITE: I left the Air Force April 30th of 2016.

ROWELL: Okay. And what prompted that decision for you specifically?

WHITE: It was the end of my enlistment. And with the medical issues that PCS in Little Rock had brought up with the asthma, and not being able to really stay and have that mandatory med board every year, and I couldn't go Guard or Reserve and I couldn't retrain--It seemed like the only option I really had was to, was to separate.

ROWELL: Can you talk a bit about not being able to go for Guard or Reserve if you had planned previously to do that?

WHITE: Mm hmm. So originally going in I knew I at least wanted to do my four 02:39:00years once I got to Scott. And like I said, I was surrounded by a great group of people. So I had originally thought that after that, to stay in for my 20 and then retire, because, of course, I would have been like 39, [doing great??]. and but with that, then the thought came later on when I knew, especially like once we started having kids, that maybe active duty might not have been, or might not be, an option for me long term. But I still wanted to serve and I still wanted to to work towards my retirement. That was a big thing for me, a big investment of time that I had put in. And I didn't really want to lose that when I separated. So I had actually spoken to some of the people that I had worked with at Scott, who were reservists and kind of got their their thought process. And then actually when I was at Little Rock, I had actually reached back to some of the same people, one of whom I worked with at Scott. She was now a much higher 02:40:00up. I believe she was a master sergeant in the Reserves then, and she had told me to like, you know, there there might be a waiver I could get, but it didn't happen very often, so I wasn't going to be able to do a reserve. So I had basically just, because you were medically disqualified, because basically they said that you weren't fit for duty. And I had a desk job, but they still want you to be able to to deploy. And the kicker was that my my primary care manager and physician's assistant, when she told me that Little Rock was known for doing that and that I couldn't really, really move, she did say once I separated, there was a good chance I could go back to normal because they had had cases of people who relocated from like that area, and their allergies or their asthma went away. In my case, that hasn't happened. I often wonder if I had hadn't 02:41:00stayed as long, it could have happened? But, yeah, I was not fit for duty, so I can't go to Reserve. So that kind of shot being able to retire, but, yeah, I separated. I decided that I wanted to, I didn't want to stay in and kind of keep I guess in my mind it was kind of like crippling my career a little bit. I really didn't have a lot of options and I wanted to get out of my own volition, so I decided that's fine. I had eight years, I'm good.

ROWELL: And so where did you go after Arkansas?

WHITE: After I separated, I decided to take my three kids because, unfortunately, I got divorced at that same time. And my three sons and I relocated back to my home state of Wisconsin.

ROWELL: And where in Wisconsin.

WHITE: We relocated back to Jackson, Wisconsin, and stayed with my parents for a few months while I was now a newly-single parent. And having just left the only 02:42:00career I knew. We were there for a few months. I was blessed, I had a job already lined up when I moved home, so I was able to, I was working part-time. Um, but it was a pretty decent paycheck. I wanted to have that flexibility because my kids were young, but they were in school and daycare and I wanted to try and kind of build that cushion to to have that hour of flexibility in case something would happen, because I didn't really have anyone else to rely on. Both my parents were working full time and my siblings were still in school. So. So yep, relocated back home. Took me a few months. By November of 2016, my sons and I moved into our first apartment up here. So that was that was a great. Little, I don't know, little 'win' moment for the single parent. Um. Yeah. So then it was just them going to school and me working for the next eight months or so.

ROWELL: And how were you received by civilians as a vet, as a female vet?

WHITE: Um, in Wisconsin, I know they're decently military-friendly. Not the most. I mean, there are some states that [ laughs] are like crazy military-friendly. I guess in Wisconsin defense, we don't have a military, an active military base. here. We have Fort McCoy, so we have the Reserve, and we have some like Army and Navy detachments and everything that. But we're not like Texas or something like that that has a lot of bases, or California. So I wasn't met with any negativity. I think if anything, it was maybe a lack of support towards like female veterans a little bit. It was kind of like, you come home, you meet with your veteran service officer to kind of put, you know, a disability package together if you have anything that you think you could go for and, you know, go get evaluated and everything that. But that was that was kind of it. It was I'm not saying that there aren't organizations or programs for 02:44:00veterans, female veterans. I mean, knowing now what I know that, yes, there are other, you know, centers for veterans, specifically, the Center for Veterans [Issues; CVI??] Is a thing. But at that time, it really kind of felt like it was just, yep, go see if you can be eligible for for disability for anything. Um, and then really kind of the only organization or gathering of veterans that I knew was like your, your legion posts. Um, and that that's a different generation of veteran that I am not. Um, so yeah, that would feel a little, little weird. Um, but that's their area. That's older veterans. It's not anything I'm trying to impose on. And to be honest, I don't think I would find many female veterans there either, so. Um, yeah.

ROWELL: So can you actually talk a bit about, um, working with the VA to get that service connected, um, service connected status, that disability status?

WHITE: Sure. Mine is actually pretty clean in my experience. I know some people have had, some people's experiences have gone on for a very long period of time, and they've been, like, really muddled and, like, full of red tape and issues, whether it be a good or bad. I had a lot of stuff going on in my military record from my med group and my stuff was for the most part all documented and I was very meticulous. I got like the digital copy, but they also gave the paper copy. So I had to have them. And I had I had everything and um, I had a few surgeries while I was on active duty and, and, it was making sure that that was that was a thing and that was documented appropriately. And I'm just kind of going forth to the VSO and breaking everything down with him and having a really good conversation. He's still out there in Washington County. He's a great guy. And he he broke, he broke every single thing down, wrote everything out. I mean, I 02:46:00think we were in there for like a few hours. But I had sent stuff to him prior, the documentation and then dropped that off, and it was really nice and clean cut. And then we had sent that to the VA and I had my appointments for what they deemed we needed to cover. So I mean, I did, like X-rays and a physical and I did hearing tests and, and all this other stuff and, um, yeah. And then I got my rating and, um, fortunately or unfortunately, I never went back to the V.A. after that. So even though some of my friends are like, Oh, well, this is service-connected. It shouldn't cost you anything. And I also don't live very close to the V.A., either. And I think that's another kind of, it's probably more complicated in my head than hopefully it really is in real life. Um, I know you can get approved to kind of see another physician, you know, outside of a certain mile radius and everything like that. To be honest, there's just, there was just so much going on with life that it was like, Oh, yes, that's on my to 02:47:00do list. And it is this long [coughs]. But yeah, I had a great, I had a good experience with them. I didn't really have any issues or push back. I mean, they did my emails, they asked me questions. I always, I sent my responses and we talked about mobility and everything that and got [inaudible]. So.

ROWELL: Um, do you care to talk about any of those procedures that you had while you were, uh, active duty.

WHITE: Like the surgeries?

ROWELL: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

WHITE: So I had, um, I had a double fasciotomy done on my interior and lateral compartments. So there, um, your leg, if this is your lower leg. And so you have, I think it's four different compartments, and basically, like in the front and the back of your calf, and that's where, when you're working out, your muscles heat up and they expand.

ROWELL: Compartment syndrome?

WHITE: Yeah. Sub compartment syndrome. And yeah, so my interior and [??] compartments, when I was working out for P.T., my legs were a little numb, and, 02:48:00like, some of the [PTLs??] of the, um, physical fitness leaders and they, I remember one of them, who was actually my friend at the time, she was joking, but she's like, If it's numb, that's fine. You can't feel the pain. Like, keep running. I'm like, huh? That's [inaudible; laughs] And, I like, well, it's not shin splints. Like I was in track and field. I know shin splints. It's not shin splints. And so we had to go get, get a test done at the local hospital. And basically what they do is, it's like a meat thermometer. You stick it in and stick it into the compartments that they're questioning and take your pressure. And, of course, note that and then they put you on the treadmill. Have you run until it's it's too painful, or your leg goes numb or whatever symptom is that you have, and then they take you back off, sit you down and meat thermometer you again, take your pressures there. Well, my at- rest pressures were greater than 02:49:00some people's post-exercise pressures. So they're like, yeah, you're getting surgery next week. So. So I had to go and get that. And I have like four, one and a half to two-inch incisions on both my legs. So they didn't both at the same time. And so then you had to do all kinds of physical therapy. O.T. We try to get blood clots afterwards, stuff like that. Uh, I have some nerve damage. I've got some decent scar tissue and stuff like that. But yeah, I can't feel in some of those areas. Um, so yeah, then it was on, like, crutches and at the same time, like trying not to walk but have to walk. So that was, that was one. And I ended up getting pregnant with my son and then had my son, and uh, after he was born, excuse me, for the, the third trimester, I kept having really bad 02:50:00heartburn. And my doctor, or what I thought was heartburn and my doctor thought it was too, so he would just give me like Zantac and work through that. And I think I have a pretty decent pain tolerance and this would double me over and put me in like the position. And now Orion was about a month old. And, um, I think about like 3 a.m. in the morning I woke up, it was like shooting pain, and I was, I had, like, rolled off the bed onto the floor. I couldn't move. And I was I was there probably three or 4 hours until finally I told my my husband at the time, I'm like, Yeah, we need to go. Like, this is this isn't my day off. Like, this isn't great. So we had to go to the emergency room and they did like EKG, they did a chest X-ray. And I remember the nurse, she asked that, Could you be pregnant? And I'm, Do you see this one-month old baby in this infant carrier 02:51:00right next to your feet? No, I'm not even cleared to do that yet. And so, yeah, they came in and they're like, Yeah, you're having severe gallbladder attacks. And I had tons of stones. And and basically they said if it had kept on for much longer, I could have died. So I was like, oh. So they're like, So you're being admitted for, you're being admitted and you're getting emergency gallbladder surgery. We're taking it out. And so I was like, Oh, okay, that sounds lovely. Um, so yep, So that was my second surgery in two years.

ROWELL: So right after childbirth.

WHITE: Yeah, I went to go do that. And of course, you know, now looking back on it, and I know that gallbladder issues are very popular for, it's like at least 30% of women who have babies have issues with their gallbladder afterwards. Um, so, yeah, so we got that removed. Yeah. So, like, I think, um, how did she even know if any of that is what's in my service connected? My asthma is. I have 02:52:00tinnitus in my ears.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: TMJ in my jaw.

ROWELL: So those are service connected?

WHITE: Yeah. I have a disc disease in my back in two spots.

ROWELL: Right. From the strain of PT and things like that?

WHITE: Yeah, like PT. And then also, to be honest, even, like, sometimes people who have office jobs, like we were, we were working really, really long hours, and it's like you have the best of chairs that you can buy. But I mean, sometimes it's just it's just a lot of wear and tear. But plus, yeah, the PT, the running, the, probably sit-ups on concrete, that's probably not good [laughs]. Um, there's a lot of things that could have contributed to it, and I wasn't the only person to have that issue. But, yeah, from top to bottom there's a few things going on.

ROWELL: Yeah. So that was part of your assessment for your, for your service- connected?

WHITE: Yeah. So they were looking at like, the range of motion and, um, nerve 02:53:00damage, X- rays, looking at all kinds of stuff for, like, my back, my jaw, my ears, how much I can hear and everything like that. So, um. All that was done.

ROWELL: Yeah. So they were thorough.

WHITE: It was a long day [laughs].

ROWELL: Yeah.

WHITE: It was a very long day.

ROWELL: And so was that a normal kind of part of, um, just leaving the service for you? Like, did you expect to be doing that or did somebody sit you down and tell you, Hey, this is what you need to do?

WHITE: Being in separation and retirement's for so long, we have to [inaudible]. You kind of have, you create a rapport with these people that you're separating and retiring, because it's not just a, oh, you see me once, like you, we have our initial and then we have some other, like, one on one meetings, and then we have our final. So it's, you kind of create that rapport with them and then you kind of hear more along the lines of what they're doing to prep because they've got to go do it after theirs. So it was something that I knew that there were some things that I, of course, had had done that had happened to me or that I had to get done while I was active duty. So, um, I at least wanted to have that 02:54:00on my medical record and then go do it. So I knew I was going to put in for it, especially like with my genetics and my TMJ was bad and I had been, you know, put in the hospital a few times for my asthma, and I note, the nerve damage. I'm like, I think I had a claim for at least one or two things [laughs]. So it was, I mean, it was normal for people to, especially if you had unfortunately had a few medical things. I know some people are like, Oh, well, you're always broke or well, now you get money every month. I'm like, yeah, but you still have to live with the issue.

ROWELL: Yeah.

WHITE: I'd honestly rather give Uncle Sam back the money if I don't have asthma, it's not fun. And, you know, literally having something that you can't breathe--that's not a good thing. So.

ROWELL: Who are you getting those responses from? Was it more civilians or other vets or?

WHITE: I mean, usually like the vet, all, we were kind of on the same page as to that was something that you were going to, to put forward. I think sometimes it 02:55:00came from some of the vets who didn't have anything. They're like, Well, I went through my whole military service and I didn't have anything wrong with me. But you're fortunate. I kind of wish that would have been me too. Trust me, this is not the choice I would have had. I couldn't control the compartment syndrome. I couldn't control my gallbladder. I couldn't control my asthma. Like this is stuff that happened to me. Not that, you know, I. I wasn't out putting myself at risk or in danger. And then something happened, and now I have to. Now I get something from it where, you know, it was of my own accord that this this came about, like, you know. So, um, I think more along the lines for other people who didn't have those. And then maybe, maybe some civilians like, oh, it must be nice like [inaudible; laughs]. But I can also say the same for, you know, some people I know who get 100% and they get paid like $3,000 a month to breathe, so [laughs] everyone can say something. It's a pro and con for everything. The grass is always greener. It's, I'm good with mine. Thank you [laughs]. I'll take 02:56:00I'll take my issues and I'll still sit in the corner [laughs].

ROWELL: It is what it is.

WHITE: Yeah, exactly.

ROWELL: Mm hmm.

WHITE: I'm not fond of it, but if it happened, yeah, I guess you might as well be compensated for it.

ROWELL: Yeah. When you came home, were you able to bond more with your dad or stepdad about being a veteran now.

WHITE: Definitely. Definitely was. That was a cool bond that we had while I was active duty. Um, and then afterwards, when I came home, that's something that we still have, but none of my other siblings have.

ROWELL: Um.

WHITE: Not like you're want to beat so-and-so.

ROWELL: Mm hmm.

WHITE: I love my siblings. We're not doing that. Um, but yeah, I know that was still a cool thing. We have even, just, we just passed Veterans Day, and I put my little shout-out to to him, because I want him to, you know, be reminded that the whole reason, you know, all these stories that you, you dazzled a little eight-year-old girl, you know, that was, that was me--getting put on my path, 02:57:00that really the military was good, bad or ugly. I would redo it in a heartbeat. And then all this, and it all started because of him. So I think we definitely got closer in that we could have like goofy jokes and and with other stories and I could actually relate to him. And I think he found that, I think he does still find that cool, that we still have that relatability for things that maybe like my mom or my my siblings don't necessarily. So, yeah, it was a good thing.

ROWELL: And did you stay in contact with anybody that you served with?

WHITE: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. I mean, my ex-husband, is still in. He is an officer now. One of my best friends. We've known each other since 14. So some are in, some aren't. But Sergeant Cotton, like I said, she's still in. I'm still friends with Sergeant Farris. Gosh, there's almost too many to count, to be honest. There's a there's a lot. And then even with my my group of friends here, after I started going to school, um, being a part of, 02:58:00like, the veterans, the service, well, the veterans office, I have two other military friends that are here, so they're, they're veterans as well. So it's. Like keep with like, I guess.

ROWELL: Would you like to talk about that? So, meeting your encounters with the Veterans Service office, and also meeting those other female vets, and what that means to you.

WHITE: Yeah. So after I decided to go to Concordia, they have a veterans services area where; they have a small staff, but they they do have some, two veterans, specifically, in there. And one of them--we came and is a very good friend, just like a older sister, a mentor, all all of the good things. And it's funny because she's she's older than I am. Her daughter and I are actually a year apart. But she's retired Army, and and then another student at the time, who I had met, she is, she was active duty Navy and now she's and now she's in 02:59:00the Reserves and um, so, so we'll always go around and talk to each other. I mean, I talk to them and they talk to me probably several times a week. I mean, that's still, it's such a great support. They were actually the two that I went to the I'm Not Invisible photo shoot with, and, um, they're just, they're just goofballs. But it's it's a great trio [laughs]. It's a great support because it's, it's two other women. First off, two other women. And they said we are all served in different branches. So that's kind of getting that perspective and that experience from other branches, um, different ages. But then also we all came together and met around that continuing education and higher education and that experience with like the GI Bills and everything. So that's that kind of camaraderie that's there. And it was I know they say a lot, too. You know, 03:00:00veterans sometimes have a hard time trying to rebuild that camaraderie, that that support after they get out. And I would agree with that. I had, I had and still do have some issues trying to reintegrate into the civilian, civilian world, like just just like work ethic is different sometimes, the culture is different, mindset is different. And then I'll talk to these two, though, and I'm trying to, can I validate whatever it is that I'm doing? Am I being crazy, [you know, if that makes sense??]. And I'm like, Okay, good. So they're great supports. I, I would not be where I am without without both of them having been in my life for the last few years.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. Can you talk a bit more about what made you share now?

WHITE: I love it.

ROWELL: Can you talk a bit more about some of the struggles that you've had kind of reintegrating into a civilian culture that is just different from what you knew for so long in your own career?

WHITE: Yeah. So after after getting out, it was just, I guess, the level of 03:01:00expectation, like the standards that you hold yourself to. I mean, I do know civilians who have high levels for themselves as well, but I mean, military is where I grew up. So that that level of you need to be meeting metrics. You need to within these regulations, these policies, you need to be doing this, this and this. It really kind of built that foundation for the person that I am, how I work, what I expect out of myself and what I expect out of other people. And when I was in the civilian world, whether it be in a work environment or school, sometimes you would see other people that didn't have, they didn't put their best foot forward. They weren't putting that effort forward. And it was really kind of frustrating even to to see because if they were like here and your 03:02:00standard is like here. So of course you're trying to push your standards further. Um, and whether maybe you guys were looked at the same way or you were trying to kind of understand this new world that you were in. Um, I think it's just the viewpoints on how you would kind of look at things. I can't think of anything like, super, super specific. Maybe software school, school was so frustrating. Um, like, again, we just have kind of a standard for some stuff--for me personally, of of what I would do for my work or something like that. Um, but it would still stem from what I learned from the military. You know, you do your research thoroughly and you do it well. You do it good the first time, you know, your integrity is still there. You know, you still try for that excellence, knowing that you're probably going to fall short, but you're still going to sit here and try for it. It wasn't double [inaudible]. No, no, no, we're going for A's, We're going for 4.0. That's what we're doing. Um, I 03:03:00[sort of??] think that was frustrating for me when I would hold myself to the standard and kind of put more pressure on myself and then both those other female friends of mine, they'd be, like, Okay. Um, one started a joke, like, Just mail, just mail some work in. Just phone it in. And I'm like, I can't do that. Like, you know, I. She says, I know you can't, but I'm pretty sure some of your classmates could. And I'm like, Well, we're not going to talk about that. I mean, we really didn't [inaudible]. But it was just kind of frustrating. And then just trying to, I guess, you know, when it came to like kind of finding jobs and that was the same thing, like work ethic or other expectations. You know, you try to leave a place better than you found it. Whether it was something that I learned in the military or something that I was raised with, it was, that was all kind of who I was. And it was just hard to [coughs], excuse me, it was hard to acclimate appropriately. And it's it still is. So I think that having those other female veterans support is still, still a great, great help.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. And then can you actually talk about, um, what you did next in your career? So you mentioned, um, I think, to me, a crisis center where you started afterr leaving.

WHITE: Oh, sure. Yeah. So after. After I left the military, I was an office manager at a crisis and emotional support hotline out in Grafton. And so being their office manager I had all that, um, that side for those daily duties. But then I was also trained as one of the, um, at, to be able to take the phone calls, too. So that was an interesting part. And I, I always had an interest in, like, a respect for law enforcement. I mentioned earlier for, like, security forces. um, and the idea of if I would have gotten out, I maybe would have been a law enforcement officer, but getting out, and now being a single parent and having little kids [inaudible] thing anymore. So the transition to, like, kind of the Crisis, that was a cool, cool option for me to kind of see another area 03:05:00where I could still maybe have some type of positive impact. And ,to be honest, that was, ah, that was a hard time for the first year or so getting out. Yeah, my whole world was kind of turned upside down and I, I didn't really know what to do for a little while, but I met some, some really great people at that organization and they actually sparked my interest into pursuing social work as a degree. And so I decided to do that and enroll in Concordia in the fall of 2017. And then from there, I kind of had to find jobs that fit my schedule for still being a full-time mom, and my kids were still getting a little bit older, so I had to have some type of flexibility a little bit with their school time, but then me being a full-time student. Um, so it was kind of like making more concessions for jobs, maybe not necessarily jobs that I completely wanted to do, 03:06:00but you take what's available. So after working at the Crisis Hotline, I went to go work for one of the main healthcare groups as a patient service representative for about a year. Um. And then that was no longer becoming conducive to my life with the hours that they wanted me to work and then having to work a little bit on weekends. And yes, I have my mom here, but she still worked full-time. And so it wasn't really something that I could try and impose on on her to try and help out with my kids. It just became too much. So I tried to look for different employment after that and I ended up working at a an eyeware retail store for about another year and a half or so. Right. Then, about two years, actually, almost two years, because then COVID hit. And so I had started working there, and in the summer of '18, started working at the YMCA. 03:07:00Summer of '19. It was like trying to pick up little, little jobs here and there. So I was an assistant childcare teacher and then COVID hit, and then I had to homeschool my kids for, what was it, like 15 months or something like that in addition to finishing my double undergraduate at Concordia. So it was, uh, 2020 was alot [laughs]. 2021 was alot [laughs]. So I finished those jobs. And then I, uh, I worked with a former professor as a supervised visitation worker at his, at his and his siblings privately-owned nonprofit for about six months before graduate school started. And then, it's like, How's grad school going? So we got to, we got to pull back a little bit, which he understood. He's a, he's a mentor of mine's here. And then, um, and then, yep, I finished up working at the YMCA because my second year of grad school started and I had to do my internship. So it was a lot of [laughs], not necessarily what I want my resume to look like, 03:08:00but it was, it was a lot of jobs. But they were all they were all great for the time. Good experience that I got from each and every one of them that I can, you know, utilize for what I want to do. So, um, I got both of my bachelor's degrees in May of '21, so I graduated with honors [inaudible]. But that was nice. That was a little, a little, I guess, extra for myself. I think I wanted to prove to myself that I [it might be bad??], I don't know. My ex-husband had gotten through school, and I had help support our family and help proofread all his papers and everything that. And then, of course, as soon as I was about to start mine, then we had separate bedrooms and got divorced. So whatever emotion that was, I don't know, one-upmanship. I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it by myself. So me completing undergrad was was a big deal. Completing both of 03:09:00them was a big deal. And then I got accepted into graduate school. So I'm now a social worker and I will be graduating in about six and a half months with my master's degree. So.

ROWELL: Would you like to tell me a bit about that? So where, where are you--is your program? And what is it in?

WHITE: So my program is at Concordia University, Wisconsin, over in Mequon.

ROWELL: Okay.

WHITE: And I did both my undergrads, the Bachelor of Social Work from them,, and I have a Bachelor of Science, specifically in human behavior and development from them. And, which is really cool because it's an individualized major. So I got to make it up. So that was fun. That's actually one thing the military taught me. You have to market yourself the best that you possibly can. So having all of those EPRs [Enlisted Performance Report] every year, having to write all of those EPRs for other airmen, you really started to see how you need to shore yourself up against your peer group. So that was definitely something that tailored into my individual major, was I kind of had an idea of what I wanted to 03:10:00do, and you got to look through the catalog and figure out what you wanted, and you had to prove to them that this made sense. And if you got it approved by the deans of the school, you could do it. So I did that, and I was the only person who graduated from Concordia with that degree. But going into my master's program, I decided to pursue my masters of social work for what I want to practice, which is mental health, crisis intervention, trauma informed care. Stuff along those lines. So started that, fall of '21? And, yep, I'll be graduating in May of '23. So, then I'll be going on and hopefully working ideally, maybe, for a local, state or federal entity, maybe going and giving back to some other veterans on down the line. And then I'm looking at, going to become a licensed clinical social worker or something else CSW.

ROWELL: So have any of your experiences in the service informed that, that kind 03:11:00of career path that you've set for yourself and been following?

WHITE: Oh, definitely. I think I mean, back to back to Basic, where I wanted to do a medical career field. I've always been like one of those helping personalities. Um, except some people think that social workers are bleeding hearts. [Whispers: I'm not a bleeding heart??] I think I've [met??] a nice mix.

ROWELL: Meaning there's a real resilience.

WHITE: You're right. Yeah. The resilience from the military was a huge, huge thing. So it was. It was from wanting to be in medical and having all these, all the trainings on resilience. And we still had some crisis intervention stuff, and we had suicide prevention. And you see peers come back, and whether they were deployed to combat zone or not, you see people with PTSD. I mean, heck, even when we were in Little Rock, we had someone trying to gain access to the base and there were shots fired. And like it was the thing, we were all locked down for a while. It was, it was a trip. But you see these types of things in 03:12:00this mental health, and it was still a stigma in the military, and the Air Force, and it still is a little bit, but it's definitely getting better. Um, but you, you would see some of your friends that you should probably go talk to someone for help, like a professional. I can only give you so much peer to peer, you know, mentorship or, you know, solidarity. Um, but you need to go talk to someone. But they didn't want to go do it. And I will admit I was one of them. I didn't want to go do it because you didn't want that to be on your record, um, because that could come back and bite you. So, people--sidelined their mental health. And I didn't like that. And so I wanted to--[sighs] I wanted to be in a position, have the education and the knowledge and career where I can sit there and I might not be able to necessarily help while active duty. I mean, I could, there are still positions where I could get a job like that, and I would love something like that. But, otherwise, I wanted to help some of the veterans who 03:13:00came out and who needed some of that extra help and maybe me being a fellow veteran, maybe I could somehow help a little bit more than someone who wasn't.

ROWELL: Mm hmm. And, um. Can you talk a bit about any of the assistance that you may have sought out, whether it be, um, you know, like, either, uh, medical services of any kind or financial assistance as a veteran during these tough times that you have experienced in the past. Um.

WHITE: Um, when I separated and when we, when we relocated back home, I mean, Wisconsin as a state, ah, there were,, there were some definite things that we were able to get on to, like the Forward Health, so for, like the healthcare based off of your socioeconomic status and [inaudible], um, along with my kids were young enough, they were like five, four and two. So we were on a WIC, so Women, Infants, and Children [Program] for a little while and that really 03:14:00helped. You had a little bit extra money, especially when you were still in the transitional phase from doing your--going down to VA and seeing if you get anything for disability. And then, like I said, there wasn't--with the divorce happening, it's not like I came home with, like, a big savings account that I could live off of. So, yes, I had a job as soon as I got up here. But it it still takes, you know, time to get through it. So, and to actually kind of build up any type of other savings account. So, where I lived we had the health care. Um, I had some, of course, connections with my, with my job, with the emotional support. I took my kids and myself to a, uh, a program for people who, and for kids who had basically lost a parent either through death or divorce. So, like, my kids get help with that kind of coping. And so while the kids were there, then the parents could elect to stay and they could go through with a 03:15:00facility-guided kind of group therapy. So, it was, that was free to cost. Like that was, that was a resource that was, that was provided locally and then. Oh, gosh. What else? Um, for a veteran status, I mean, that this school knew I was a veteran, like my kid's school, um, uh, I got assistance with daycare through the state, so, like, that was, that was a huge thing, especially because the three kids were so close together. And it was, it was a lot. And I was trying to do school full-time. And you weren't able to hold down a full-time job while being a full-time parent and a full-time student at the same time. So that definitely did help. Help is not even a good word. I mean, that kept me afloat for, for the first few years while I could start, uh, start getting a better foundation. And my goal was to kind of have myself have a time limit for when I could stop using 03:16:00those services, because to me, I was, of course, eternally grateful for them. They kept my head well above water so I could kind of figure off this new Jenga of a life that I had. But I always thought that they were people who needed those services more than I did. So I wanted to be able to kind of get out of their queue as quick as possible so someone else could use it. But yeah, there were several, there were several resources within the state of Wisconsin that I was able to utilize after I got out.

ROWELL: Thanks for sharing. What would you say to another vet, maybe who's just gotten out or not, who is struggling to kind of reach out for those, for those services, and give them?

WHITE: Ahh--

ROWELL: Like, what--I don't know. If you could give advice, what might it be?

WHITE: That they're not alone in reaching out for those. There's nothing wrong in reaching out for those. Enough people say that, I know that veterans have a 03:17:00very good reputation of being stubborn. And we are, it's a stubborn, very big pride thing. But asking for help isn't a weakness to me. That's a strength. You are. And that is something I learned in the military, too. You can't do everything by yourself. You're going to get bogged down. Balls are going to drop, and it's going to be on you, as opposed to you understanding your limits and saying, Hey, I can do A, B, C, and D, but after this, I'm going to need help. So, I need to reach out for whatever help that is. And usually people are willing to give you that assistance, knowing that, of course, you know you're not going to sit here and be on that help forever. You want this for this, this small season in your life so then you can get back to where you want to be. So these services are put in place for you to utilize. If some of them if they're not used and they don't have justification that they're needed by veterans, 03:18:00sometimes they go away. So I think that if it's something that you are aware of or if it's an area that you think you need a service in and that maybe you don't know where to find that, like, I'm guilty of that. I mean, Google, reach out to your VSO. Reach out to--you know, if you do have any other friends or connections, contact the VA, make those calls. Make time to make those calls. I know transitioning. There's a lot of stuff on your plate, a lot of things to do. Those are phone calls that need to be on top of the list because you might regret them afterwards. Or if anything, they could really connect iyou to a support group that you might not know you needed or that could even offer you employment down the line. Like you never you really never know. And like I said too, I'm still working on it myself. It's very slow going, but trying to find that that community of veterans, after you get out, trying to find that 03:19:00brotherhood, that camaraderie, those might be the first people that you need to try and check with. Yeah, definitely reach out to to those resources, ask for help. It's not a bad thing.

ROWELL: And then, would you like to say a bit about kind of your perspective on vets organizations? We kind of touched on this earlier, but you mentioned that, you know, it's not a place that you've always necessarily has kind of resonated with you, and that you feel like there's maybe a need there. So would you like say more about that?

WHITE: Right. Yeah. So after separating active duty, I know, didn't feel like there was a specific [broad??]--It's, it's not like after separating active duty you went and maybe met with your VSO, got your disability package together and you went to the VA. There's no, like, welcoming party like, Hey you separatee. 03:20:00You retiree. Come this way. We're going to take you through like this whole hallway of, you know, like job fair information. But it's for those that separated or retired. Sometimes I think that might have been good because even now at six years post-separation, I still don't know a lot of places or organizations within my area. So that was something especially kind of noticing that that, there wasn't a huge representation, or maybe that, again, that they're not, that there aren't those organizations existing, but it didn't seem like they were marketed that much for people who just got out. Like, where would I find this? Am I just supposed to Google this? Or, you know, are there cards somewhere? Is there, you know, is there an information packet? Maybe there should be one that kind of gets sent out to, you know, maybe like the VSO. And I'm not saying the VSO didn't give you like some cards or whatever, but that's a very busy time in someone's life. You're you probably relocating your, you know, 03:21:00housing, jobs, kids, family, all this stuff. Some of that can get kind of like brain-dumped. So maybe like a bigger presence, you know, like I said, maybe we do need that job fair, but it's a, hey, this is, these are all the resources you could possibly have. I did notice, too, that it didn't seem like there was a lot for female veterans. Um, and now I do know that there is. I believe it's a woven. Um, so that organization, within at least this area of Wisconsin, I'm sure they have a broader touch. But for female veterans to kind of connect for, you know, personal, professional networking, any type of that reasoning, um. But, yeah, there wasn't, didn't seem to be an overabundance of services. So I know that those two friends of mine and I had even spoken about, Maybe we need to start something, or, maybe, maybe even the start something would be to do 03:22:00that research and then you'd put, you know, it could be as simple as, We don't have to start a nonprofit or something, but we could maybe do the research and put together information for local organizations that are like this, and maybe we just disseminate it to the VA, to the VSO, to, like, neighboring colleges that have, you know, veterans service departments. I'm not going to lie now, but I think that that's still a good idea. Yeah, something along those lines. Yeah.

ROWELL: Um, and then kind of reflecting on your service with the Air Force, what does it mean to you now, in the present? It's a good question.

WHITE: It's a great question. I know that my Air Force, my time in the air in the Air Force is probably, outside of my children, the greatest accomplishment I've ever done. I have a lot of pride when it comes to my service. I miss it. I 03:23:00miss. I miss people. I always miss the customers, especially. But I miss the people. I miss. Good. Bad. Ugly. There.That was a culture. I can't find it. And to still be part of something that was bigger than yourself, you know, that you were tiny specks and you were doing something that not everyone can do and not everyone does. And, you did it for a decent amount of time. It was an honorable discharge. So I did it myself [inaudible]. But I just do it. Um, yeah, that's that's a, it's a pride thing for me. Um, I like to acknowledge that I'm a veteran, not to, not to, like, get stuff out of it, but just because, yeah that 03:24:00was, I willingly signed away eight years. I would have done anything I was told to do for eight years. For everyone that's in my family, people that are around me, everything like that, because that's what I believed in, and in my flag, and that's what I still believe in. And you still have, you know, I still get those goose bumps certain--Memorial Day--Labor Day--4th of July--Veterans Day. You hear that song, you see those Stars and those Stripes. And there was a call that went out and and you answered it. So not surprising.

ROWELL: Um, and do you have anything to say to young women, especially young women of color, who might be considering joining the military?

WHITE: Yes. Do it! [laughter] Um, no. I mean, they should, if it's, I mean, to anyone, but yes, to young women of color, if that's something that you feel you want or need to do, definitely do it. Again, that was one of, that was my first 03:25:00big decision as an adult. Um, a great one. But I think that if you're going to do it, make sure you try and do it right, to the best of your ability for the knowledge that you have at that time. And for, you know, for me, that was utilizing my dad and his knowledge and how I could mentally be okay while I was in BMT [Basic Military Training] and tech school and away from my family and and learning this new culture. But for them, if it's like, all right, what do you want to accomplish within it? I think if anyone were to go in and especially women of color, I'd say, okay, know who you are, but be ready to learn more. Uh, go in with a plan for as much as you can, but be flexible on it. Don't go in so blinded that you can't see other opportunities. You want to go in for education, do that, taking advantage of what the military will offer you. And if that's travel, travel, if that's education, do it. If that is other leadership 03:26:00opportunities, career progression, anything like that, completely capitalize on it. Don't, don't settle. And never put anyone else's career in front of your own.

ROWELL: Okay. Is there anything, um, we didn't cover today yet that you would like to discuss?

WHITE: Umm. I don't think so.

ROWELL: Okay. All right. Well, thank you for your time today, Moriah. This concludes the interview with Moriah White on November 14th, 2022.

[Interview Ends]