Oral History Interview with Jennifer M. Soborowski

[Interview Begins]

BOWERS HEALEY: And today is January 20th, 2023. This is an interview with, and Jennifer, I'm going to ask you to state your full name.

SOBOROWSKI: Jennifer M. Soborowski.

BOWERS HEALEY: And spell Soborowski.

SOBOROWSKI: S-O-B-O-R-O-W-S-K-I.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And when you were in the military, well, let me ask you first, what was your maiden name?

SOBOROWSKI: Olewnik.

BOWERS HEALEY: And spell that.

SOBOROWSKI: O-L-E-W-N-I-K.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And when when you entered the military, what was your name?

SOBOROWSKI: Jennifer Elliot.

BOWERS HEALEY: And spell Elliot, please.

SOBOROWSKI: E-L-L-I-O-T-T.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Thanks. That'll make it a lot easier to identify you and also to do the transcript having you spell those. And you served in the United States Army. And am I correct, it's from 1995 to 2004?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And can you give me the exact dates of when you entered

the service or the month and year?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. So October of 1995 is when I first went to basic training.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And when did you actually get finally discharged from the army?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, from the Army was, uh, July of 2004. That was completely at the end, but I did active duty. Okay. So my active duty time ended in October of 1999, and then I went to the National Guard from '99 to 2004.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So your initial tour of duty was actually four years?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And then you did reserve time after that, or were you Guard or National Guard?

SOBOROWSKI: Actually, New York National Guard.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So just once I joined the New York National Guard. We lived there for a year, and then I moved to Wisconsin and went to the Wisconsin National Guard.

And then in in the Wisconsin National Guard, I actually get called up to active duty for a year and a half.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Well, thanks for that explanation, because that's a number of different service periods there. Okay. This interview is being conducted by Ellen Bowers Healey, and we are in West Allis, Wisconsin. And this interview is for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else is present for this interview. All right, Jennifer, I'm going to ask you a little more about your background. Where were you born? What city and state? [pause] Okay. And where did you grow up?

SOBOROWSKI: Westland, Michigan. It's not far from.

BOWERS HEALEY: Just out of curiosity, is that Lower Michigan or Upper Michigan?

SOBOROWSKI: Lower Michigan.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And tell me a little bit about your family. What did your family

do and do you have siblings?

SOBOROWSKI: I do. I have seven brothers and sisters total.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: My parents get divorced when I was little, though, and my mom and my stepdad, once they were together, that's where the extra kids came in. And my dad also had a wife, but she didn't have children, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: My mom and my stepdad were like, factory work--is the Detroit area, really.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So they worked in factories. And my mom also worked in a pie shop. And then my dad and my stepmom worked for a company named Pitney Bowes, actually, for forever. Um, but I they were more into the-- my dad did, was like a technical guy, and he fixed copier machines, and my stepmom was more in the business-type stuff. Um, I know she was the boss [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And where did she go to school?

Grade school and high school?

SOBOROWSKI: P.D. Graham Elementary School was the school that I went to, right by our parents house. And then, uh, we were at Stevenson Junior High, and then John Glenn High School was all in Westland.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And did you graduate from high school?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: When did you graduate?

SOBOROWSKI: 1995. June.

BOWERS HEALEY: And while you were in school or after you graduated from high school, did you have a job? And if so, what kind of a job?

SOBOROWSKI: Well, my job I had was McDonald. I worked at McDonald's. I was a trainee. I was a they wanted me to become a manager when I turned 18, but I joined the Army, so right away. So I just what was it? I stayed as a trainer, but they were trying to put me on that track.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you joined the Army in '95, so you were just out of high school?

SOBOROWSKI: Yep.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

And did you indicate you were married at that time?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes, I actually got married in May of 1995, and my husband had joined the military also. He was also interested in that. So we actually joined together. I wanted to join the Army since I was like 13. I was very worried about, with all the brothers and sisters, how would my parents pay for college?

BOWERS HEALEY: All right.

SOBOROWSKI: So that kind of made the big difference there. One of my major goals to get in, but we both joined together, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right.

SOBOROWSKI: And then he left first. And then I left in October.

BOWERS HEALEY: And left for initial training.

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And so you didn't train together?

SOBOROWSKI: No.

BOWERS HEALEY: No. But where did you go to training, your initial training?

SOBOROWSKI: My initial training was Fort Jackson. I don't know if that's North or South

Carolina. I always forget.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And how long were you in Fort Jackson?

SOBOROWSKI: That's, I think it's eight weeks for the two months for basic training.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you did you go directly to your follow-on schooling?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. What was that?

SOBOROWSKI: That was logistics. So. Well, automated logistical specialist is, was the title, but, Fort Lee, Virginia.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you chose, did you choose logistics or did the Army choose it for you?

SOBOROWSKI: I chose it. I had, I had a actually very good selection of whatever jobs I wanted. But I liked the, I liked the description of the job for logistics. Sounded like things that I would enjoy doing.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how long were you in Fort Lee, Virginia?

SOBOROWSKI: I was there for, I think four months. And then I actually stayed

a little bit longer for another training that I had to do. It was some computer, I can't remember--whatever it was, it's completely [laughs] outdated now. Back then, it was some extra computerized stuff that we had to learn about the supply chain.

BOWERS HEALEY: And if you had to describe logistics or your military occupational specialty to a civilian, how would you describe it?

SOBOROWSKI: I would definitely refer to like working in a warehouse.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Because that's a pretty common thing. But also it had different levels of supply. So working in a, a depot, a supply depot that where a warehouse might get their things from, you know, there's different levels. And also in the maintenance side of things, um, basically you're like a parts clerk at a, you know, a repair shop.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: That's another one.

BOWERS HEALEY: When you chose that, did

you think it was something that was going to be useful in the civilian world?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes, especially the warehouse part.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Had you ever worked in a warehouse, or, you know, you worked in McDonald's?

SOBOROWSKI: Right. But I understood the supply pieces of receiving items and things like that. So I had a good understanding. I did research. I, I did a little research on what logistics is too before I, just reading about and asking family. A lot of my family was worked in factories, so they understood also. Some of their friends worked in warehouses and I got to get, asked questions about that.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did any of your parents--were they military members?

SOBOROWSKI: Not my parents. Um, my, my mom's dad was in the Air Force and he kind of treated all his kids like recruits. So there was some I would say it probably filtered down a bit. When I went to basic training, it didn't

feel like I was just completely away from home. There was a lot of the-restrict, like the requirements of certain things being a certain way. And those were comfortable--

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Because [for security??] my mom already liked stuff that way.

BOWERS HEALEY: What was your impression of your initial training at Fort Jackson? When you got there, you said you were kind of comfortable with it. Explain what it was, and for you in--was it just females or was it males and females?

SOBOROWSKI: It was males and females. So every female that was in a platoon all had to be put together for the sleeping because there was, so you didn't necessarily train with all of them. So. But you definitely knew every single woman there [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So they, but it was good to have the the coed--I know that was a little bit newer then, I think. There was still plenty of places where there

weren't, there wasn't that coed. So, there was a lot of conversations about that stuff, you know, trying to keep up. And there was always someone outside our door to.

BOWERS HEALEY: What do you mean, somebody else?

SOBOROWSKI: There was always someone there to make sure that, like, nobody came into our barracks or, or we didn't sneak out.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: They wanted to keep the men and women separated from each other.

BOWERS HEALEY: During that eight weeks of training, did you have any liberty or was it your, no liberty on the weekends, or what was that like?

SOBOROWSKI: No liberty.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: It was all straight training. And it was so busy, though, till the end. At the very end, just before you graduate, you get to spend a little time with your family if they come down.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And did your family come down? Were they able to or not?

SOBOROWSKI: Not my parents. My husband and his, some of his family came down to see me.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And where was your husband at the time since he started before you did?

SOBOROWSKI: Oh, he didn't like the military.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: He actually left before, I think he made it through basic training. But after that, by the time I got to my job training, he was already getting out of the military.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see. Okay. So he was back in Michigan?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, he was back in Michigan.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right.

SOBOROWSKI: But his uncle did live in Fort Lee, Virginia. So when we, they, they drove me to my schooling and they stayed at his uncle's house.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So I guess that all came back to, uh, what did you, what was your overall impression of your initial eight weeks of training? You said it wasn't entirely foreign because of your grandfather, but was there anything that surprised you? How did you feel?

SOBOROWSKI: I honestly thought they would be meaner [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I did. But you could really tell that, you know, even though they're yelling at you, and they're pushing you. So I like that. I like that encouragement,

you know, get this done. And I. I enjoyed the structure. I really prefer to have things in a certain order. So I enjoyed that structure. And there's a lot of exercise. So I think the biggest thing that surprised me was my self, that I could do all those things, you know.

BOWERS HEALEY: How much prep did you have concerning the exercise? Did anybody, did recruiters or anyone else, you know, kind of let you know what to expect in terms of physical training?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And what type of information did you have, or preparation before you showed up at training?

SOBOROWSKI: This, the big one they suggested was running. Because that's--but I was already--I didn't have a car, so I was in pretty good shape there, or I rode my bicycle. So I was in pretty good shape that way. I think the pushups, I probably should have listened and did more pushups before I came, but after a week or two you just start building that muscle and getting stronger.

BOWERS HEALEY: What was your physical fitness test like back

when you when you started in the military in '95? Do you remember what the requirements were?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, it wasn't that--like for, I know it was, so for the men and the women was different. So push-ups you had to do. I can't remember how many I could do 50 push-ups in two minutes. So I was way over the whatever you were required to do, and running as well. I was very fast runner. Uh, sit-ups was probably the most difficult for me.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I usually just get, you know, just enough.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Okay. You've talked about your initial training and your follow on training a little bit in Fort Lee. At any time during those trainings, did you get promoted or did you have to wait for promotion beyond training?

SOBOROWSKI: Oh, I didn't get promoted yet to, E-2. I think that was right when I--In

Korea. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And that was your first duty station--in Korea?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And did you did you want to go to Korea, or was that selected for you?

SOBOROWSKI: I think it was selected for me because that's kind of my. We did this married couples program that they had. And I'm pretty sure that my husband was going to get stationed there as well if he had stayed.

BOWERS HEALEY: Uh huh.

SOBOROWSKI: So, um, he was selected before me.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So when did you go to Korea?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, that was April of '96.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you have leave before you went there?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes, I did. I think I had a week leave.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you go back to Michigan or--

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, I went back to Michigan.

BOWERS HEALEY: All righty. And with your husband

having gotten out of the service, was there any kind of, well, I take--what was your tour of duty going to be in Korea? One year or more?

SOBOROWSKI: One year.

BOWERS HEALEY: One year. Okay. And with one year of being separated from your then husband, what was going through your mind there?

SOBOROWSKI: I was excited to travel.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I was excited to to go a whole different country and learn everything. And, but my husband didn't necessarily feel the same.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah.

SOBOROWSKI: He was very upset. He couldn't believe I would be so excited to go to some foreign country.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And be away from home that long.

BOWERS HEALEY: So when you went over there, did you go over with some of your classmates in logistics? Did you know anyone when you got there?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes, I had, and a couple friends.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Tell me about Camp Casey. Where is it located in Korea?

SOBOROWSKI: The city is Tongduchon.

BOWERS HEALEY: Can you spell that place or give it a try?

SOBOROWSKI: T-O-N-G-D-U-C-H-O-N.

That's pretty close.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And where is that in relationship to Seoul, if you know?

SOBOROWSKI: Way up north, almost to, no, like twenty mi--I was wasn't far from the border, the DMZ.

BOWERS HEALEY: Camp Casey is way up north.

SOBOROWSKI: Way up north. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And did you have an opportunity to get to the border?

SOBOROWSKI: I did. But you had to sign some paper that says if you die, they're not responsible. So I just decided I didn't not want to go on the--they had a tour thing.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So I was like, I'll wait for everything else.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right.

SOBOROWSKI: I decided I did travel, though, on the subway there a lot.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. And where did you travel on the subway?

SOBOROWSKI: Well, we would--well, you can't actually. It's all numbers and colors. And then there's names that when you're at the main place to travel you can see the names,

but sometimes we would just pick the numbers and go to these little towns and eat there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you usually go with somebody in the army? Kind of a buddy system?

SOBOROWSKI: They would take a couple people. Yeah. We, one time we went to McDonald's and had kimchi.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: It was fun. It was just fun little adventures. And you could go for the day then. So that was nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: And did you go just as a group from your work unit, or was it planned through the military welfare?

SOBOROWSKI: Oh, just as a group.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: But you couldn't wear your uniform. That was important that you didn't wear a uniform when you went off. Most times they assumed we were teachers. There's a lot of American women and men that are teachers. So, but you couldn't wear if you're, if you're going into areas where there is like university students, because there would be a lot of protesting and sometimes it would get kind of ugly. And so wearing your uniform was dangerous to to when

you were leaving the base.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did you did you just hear about those protests or did you see the protests?

SOBOROWSKI: I didn't. I just heard about it. I always avoided all the the places they they said not to go. But there were people, sometimes on a, sometimes if you did, there was a couple times where I did have to travel in uniform on a public thing, and they're asking us why we're there to kill them. Or, some very unusual questions. Uncomfortable.

BOWERS HEALEY: South Koreans would ask you that?

SOBOROWSKI: I think that, you know, like typically someone older, one, someone older would step in and say something to them and they'd leave us alone. But, you know, I think over time, history and all those things, that the reason why someone is in a place gets forgotten by the younger generations.

BOWERS HEALEY: What were you doing when you were required to travel in uniform?

SOBOROWSKI: I had to report for some training that I had to go to.

So it was easier to travel in the uniform either way. But I had had to report. But that was actually the first time. Later on, we, they changed, you know, before that was before they made the ruling to say, don't wear your uniform.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see. Okay. Tell me about Camp Casey. How large is it? Is it well built up? Are there structures there or tents or. And what's the mission of Camp Casey?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, I honestly don't really know the. Well, there's tanks. There's a lot of tankers. We were forward support, so we would support infantry. And I guess it's mechanized infantry.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So I was attached to a medical unit and they needed someone in their motor pool. So that was our focus was the medical care and ambulances were my,

the motor pool team's focus. You had to have those, right?

BOWERS HEALEY: So were you actually not working in logistics while you were there?

SOBOROWSKI: That was part of the supply side. I ordered. I ordered vehicle parts.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So, and then I would go to the warehouse and get my parts to pick them up. So it's just a low, I guess it would be the the lowest level of the supply. There's also a supply where people that worked at the unit, like a unit supply, so they ordered like paper and, you know, different supplies like that that aren't, that aren't anything to do with the mechanical side, but they're a whole different job.

BOWERS HEALEY: For someone who has never been to Camp Casey in South Korea. Try to describe Camp Casey. What does it look like? How large is it? Does it have a PX and commissary?

SOBOROWSKI: Small. Yeah, very small PX and commissary. Small.

Small place.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: You could walk. You could walk it in a day. Less than a day. The camp, maybe. At least the areas where all the buildings and stuff were. I think there was some other areas that maybe I didn't go to, but. But since you couldn't have a car, you know, honestly, I don't know if I truly know how big or small it was because we kind of stuck within our same areas where we went. There was a little club, a couple of clubs.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: You could take taxis. They did have some taxis you could take, but typically you would just--it was easier just to walk everywhere.

BOWERS HEALEY: And when you say you couldn't have a car, was that true of all military personnel there?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Even the senior enlisted and officers?

SOBOROWSKI: Maybe, like, if you were, like, a colonel or something, you could probably have a car. But it would, it would be difficult to drive.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did dependents live there?

SOBOROWSKI: No.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So everybody there was single or a geographic

bachelor, basically.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Hmm. Did you like living there?

SOBOROWSKI: I did. And you could go out, off base, and they had a--You had to go to a certain area. It was like a little strip of the town that you could go to that you weren't allowed to go past certain areas unless you were with the Korean soldiers that called them KATUSAs.

BOWERS HEALEY: Can you spell that?

SOBOROWSKI: K-A-T-U-S-A. I don't know what it's it's, it has, it's an acronym.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So, but it would be the, so the Korean military had--I think if you were a richer family, you would not have to go to the ROK [Republic of Korea] Army. You could, your parents could get you into this program. And they were, they worked with us. So they were our peers.

BOWERS HEALEY: When you say they work with you, they work in the warehouse with you.

SOBOROWSKI: Wareho-- any jobs? There' was all, there was all

different jobs. So basically they were, I don't know, I don't want to say a liaison. They were, you know, they kind of seemed like they were just part of the team. They worked in the buildings with us, but they were in the Korean Army and--

BOWERS HEALEY: So they wore uniforms when they came to work.

SOBOROWSKI: And they supported us and everything.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: They tend to be young, or older, or?

SOBOROWSKI: Younger.

BOWERS HEALEY: Younger.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I think everyone there--I don't know if it's still a thing, but everyone there had to serve two years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So, and they, but they could take us past those points to, to go to other places. It was interesting, the parents don't have TVs.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay?

SOBOROWSKI: It's all about talking to each other. And there's food. And every, every drink is bottoms up, and it's a little tiny cup.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did the KATUSAs generally speak English or not?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So no problem communicating with them?

SOBOROWSKI: Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And they would try to teach us stuff, too. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: How'd that go?

SOBOROWSKI: I, I don't know. If I would have used some of the things I learned, I probably would have retained it. But I didn't, you know, I just forget. Forgot after--

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: --not using it for so long.

BOWERS HEALEY: Ah, you spent 12 months in Korea. Yeah. Do you think you learned a lot about logistics, or got familiar with it? What was your, was it a good place to start out?

SOBOROWSKI: You know, it was a good place. Everything we had to do there was kind of behind technology. Maybe 20 years. I don't know. There's a lot of manual work ethics that I learned there that, I think, has always sort of been a good base for understanding how things work. So because technology makes it easier, but you don't understand all the steps then. So and I learned a lot about main--vehicle

maintenance, too. So. We had to take oil samples. You didn't necessarily have to be a mechanic to do that.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And then if you're, whatever vehicle you are assigned, wherever you are you're, you are responsible to help repair your own vehicle. At least everywhere I was.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, good. What other things might you have done during your liberty time? You said you went to McDonald's and when the KATUSAs were--oh, I was going to ask you when the KATUSAs were with you, did you have to let personnel on the base know you were going off with the KATUSA, and you were going beyond the norm, you know?

SOBOROWSKI: No. They're just like everybody else.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So they had all the same access. And, you know, wherever they go, they had to follow the same rules that we did.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you have

the opportunity to go to any larger cities like Seoul or--

SOBOROWSKI: I was in Seoul, yes, I was in Seoul when I first got there. Everyone stops in Seoul for a night.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you never went back?

SOBOROWSKI: No, I didn't go back.

BOWERS HEALEY: You mentioned getting on the subways and going by the numbers. Well, where could you get? How far and to what?

SOBOROWSKI: Just all the little--like, well, you could take, you can actually take that train to Seoul to go as well. So they had a pretty intricate subway system, you know. I wish I had a map. I did have one. But it, the papers, it fell apart.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I kept showing people that they--it was, you could go pretty far. Pretty much. It was a big span of the, the area. And actually, back then, I think more people were probably not driving anyways because women were just only recently allowed to have a driver's license when we came there. So. Well, yeah

it was, it might be a had been like a one year so I, you know to get somewhere for women before that, if they, their husband wasn't driving them, or a man wasn't driving them, they would have had to also take the subway. So the, the access to that was pretty good.

BOWERS HEALEY: For the year that you were at--did you spend the entire 12 months there?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did you have any particular NCO or officer or somebody that you considered to be a mentor that kind of helped you along, and, or were there many? How did you learn your trade?

SOBOROWSKI: Well, I had a, someone that I worked with that we had the same job. So he taught me what I had to do. And we also had the mortar sergeant. I was, I looked up to her, you know [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: She was the boss and they were afraid of her [laughs]. I wanted that power.

You know [Bowers-Healey laughs], I did, so. But those two really, you know, from my job, I'd say that there's a few things that I never got rid of from that that I felt, you know, it was helpful information. Just I mean, it's general stuff that you could probably learn in any military job. But my mentor, he, you know, taught me about the results and, you know, not making up, somebody shouldn't have to do extra work from the work that you do. I think that was the biggest one that was important. And I still like to follow that. You know, if you're sending something up to a VP and they have to do work, that's not good, you know? So, but even an officer, you know, officers should just be able to sign their name or approve or not disapprove. They shouldn't have to do research or extra stuff by the time it gets to that level. And so my work became just as good as his work that he did.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

And was he there for the same period of time? Was that a--

SOBOROWSKI: No. So there was always overlap.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So you'd have a couple of months with your person and then then, you know, when it was getting close to when you leave, there'd be another person coming and maybe two months you'd have to teach each other things. Sometimes it could be more overlap depending on just, you know, the timing for people. There could be more overlaps, but you can have two of the same whatever. It worked out well for continuity, I think.

BOWERS HEALEY: When it came time to leave Korea. Did you have input as to what your new duty station was or--

SOBOROWSKI: No.

BOWERS HEALEY: No. Okay. And what was your new duty station after Korea?

SOBOROWSKI: Fort Drum, New York.

BOWERS HEALEY: And did you take leave in between Korea and Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: I did. I took 30 days. I really needed it to adjust

from the time difference. It took me a whole month to be able to go to bed. Like not go to bed at five in the morning.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: It was like 12 or 13 hours ahead. So. And I was younger back then. So I'd be at a party and they're like, "How are you still awake?"

BOWERS HEALEY: I should ask you, ah, communication. You were talking about everything being, oh, in the logistics world, maybe ten, 15, 20 years behind. How was your communication back home in the United States with a 12-hour difference, with maybe lack of computers or Internet? How did you communicate?

SOBOROWSKI: Well, we had to get a phone card and there was a phone on each floor in the hallway. Actually had one right outside my room, which was, seemed nice until I moved in [laughs]. People are always sitting there talking on the phone.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: Or receiving calls. So they kind of want you to answer that. People could call that phone,

but if no one's there, it's not getting answered. And they could have actually called me, you know, during the work day at my, where I was working, but at the time didn't make sense. So usually it was right after physical fitness that be the time to call someone. You had a little, a good amount of time between exercising and getting to your workstation.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, I take it you used your phone card a lot and you made the calls back?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yes. Okay. What was your barracks like in Korea?

SOBOROWSKI: Uh, it was all barracks, you know, brick walls that you can see the shape and two beds. So there was always two people in a room and we had our own bathroom and we have a TV. So that was kind of nice. I never watch TV, though. I don't remember. I, well, you can only watch like two channels. And it was, like,

today, I think if I was in Korea, it would be a whole different story of technology. So I always wanted to go off somewhere and do something. There's always fun stuff to do. And, plus, there was the club. People dance or hang out or get, you know, they tried to make it a little entertaining for everybody so you didn't have to leave base.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you spent a lot of time at the club?

SOBOROWSKI: No, I spent a lot of time, actually spent a lot of time at this bar that played a lot of country music and had a two-step. A lot of different, they had country dances. There's a few other ones I went to. So I learned Latin dancing, they had one for that. I made a lot of friends, too, because I just wanted to learn how to try the different dan--so funny that I learned to two-step in Korea [both laugh]. And I made some friends with the local people there too, so that was nice. And I also had a, there was an orphanage there

that I spent time in as well.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay.

SOBOROWSKI: We just go play with the kids and then, um, you know, spend time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Is that right outside the base?

SOBOROWSKI: Oh, yeah, not right outside, but kind of close walking--you could walk there. So we, um, at the bar that we went to, sometimes it would be very busy. You couldn't serve alcohol, but you could open the beers for them. So I would open the beers and get tips for opening beers and I would take all that money, give it to the orphanage all the time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was that a club on base that you were working on?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And so you worked at--you just volunteer or were you actually employed there?

SOBOROWSKI: No, I wasn't employed.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I just helped our friend Joon, his name was.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right.

SOBOROWSKI: So he was very friendly, and he, he really liked all the meeting and knowing all the soldiers, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sounds like you had a good time in Korea. You enjoyed it.

SOBOROWSKI: I did. I enjoyed that. Those people were--it'd be nice to, you know, it's hard to find those

people right now because of the technology stuff.

BOWERS HEALEY: Mm-hmm.

SOBOROWSKI: It would have been--back then if I would have had that. I probably really didn't get that until later.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you didn't have Facebook back then and didn't have Internet.

SOBOROWSKI: You lost. If you lost your address book, you lost everything, which happened, when I had everybody's names and all that stuff. And I, uh, it didn't make it in my luggage because I had to search my whole bag Their machine was down. Lost a few other things, but, you know, my whole life is in this duffle bag, so. Or maybe too, you know, that was everything I owned for.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, Let's go on to Fort Drum, which you said was your next. What unit were you with in Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: 10th Forward Support Battalion. So. And when I was going to Fort Drum, I was already. Even when I came back from Korea, I was already in the stages of getting divorced.

My husband didn't like, no, part of it was probably the separation, no talk, hardly talking, things like that. So we decided to get divorced when I was in a little--they have a transition building when you first come. And that's when we made that decision to get on the phone. This is it. We're done.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Yeah. I take it it took a few months or a while before you could finalize the divorce or not?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah [sighs]. It took while. I, well I didn't finalize divorce, I did a legal separation right away.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I actually started sending it when I was in Korea, but he never signed it, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. You indicated that you were with [coughs], excuse me, Forward Support Battalion, and is that with the 10th Mountain Division?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where were you assigned

there? What were your duties?

SOBOROWSKI: That's where I worked in a warehouse. Um, I did a lot of the computer work. That was the big one that I had to do. I was very good at using the computers, and, um, you had to do, like, um, some stuff that would be considered I.T. work. We had to do some of that as well, but we also had--we, we handled every kind of supply item including food except for medical supplies. We didn't touch those. So we had, you know, vehicles, parts, weapons, parts, paper and food we did when it was time for going to the field. So everyone had to order food through us and then we would have to pick up the, the big order and then they would come and get their items in the field. So we had

things like boxes of freezer stuff that you had to keep nonperishable. All those things. We were like the grocery store.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And what's Fort Drum like?

SOBOROWSKI: Cold.

BOWERS HEALEY: Cold [both laugh]! How long did you spend at Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: From '97 to '99.

BOWERS HEALEY: So a total of two years, more or less?

SOBOROWSKI: Three, well, I was there in the, when I was in the National Guard. I still was there for another year. I worked there, actually. They had jobs where you, you had to be in the National Guard and then you could get this job, which was basically you still had to wear your uniform. They have jobs like that here, too.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: But it's basically, it's not the same as being on duty. You get paid as, like a, like a government employee, I guess. So

you still wear your uniform, you work, I, it was basically like my job in Korea. But, um--

BOWERS HEALEY: So for a while, though, you were actually on active duty at Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, I was on active duty at Fort Drum.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how many years, or how much time did you actually spend on active duty in an active duty status in the Army?

SOBOROWSKI: So it was it was April of '97 to October '99. So it's almost, it's almost three years. And I drove a big forklift there. And a big 5-ton.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sounds almost, ah, motor transport in addition to being in logistics. Or is that just, what, do they consider that part of logistics?

SOBOROWSKI: It was part of logistics.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: They did have, they had specific people that would do the motor transport for other things. But for our own unit needs, we handled, you know, bringing items

or, or you had to pick up, sometimes you needed, you needed the forklift to pick up the large items that were ordered and to deliver them. So it was in the same like giant loft, too. So once it would come to our warehouse, it might just move two spots down in this gigantic lot of our campus of the unit.

BOWERS HEALEY: Again, going back to Fort Drum, where is that located in New York?What is the city?

SOBOROWSKI: Watertown is--

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Not, maybe not the biggest city, but it's north. It's higher. It's a little bit higher than Buffalo. So. The Canadian border is like a half-hour away. I think.

BOWERS HEALEY: You said it was cold. What else was your impression about Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: Um. What was that? I mean, there's, like, a nice small town. Well, actually,

Miss. Miss New York Pageant is in Watertown, New York. It was then. Um, but it was a nice, beautiful place. Very beautiful. And it's warm and nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Mm-hmm.

SOBOROWSKI: Lots of country areas out there, farms. Even to go to Watertown, you know, you got to drive past a couple of farms here and there. So, um, it was interesting place. A little different than the city or, um, but they had, you know. They had places to go and hang out and have fun. Alexandria Bay is another city that we would go to. I think that's where everybody went to go to other clubs. There are some restaurants, some fun restaurants, interesting ones, and they had even on base the club stuff that they had was wasn't just like dancing and music. They had games and video games. TV. They were starting

to build, you know, have some of the newer technology stuff in their buildings. And they had like even if it was the club, they would have like theme nights and bowling. That's my favorite. So I went to the bowling alley a lot. Great place to hang out. Even if you weren't bowling. Somewhere fun, you know.

BOWERS HEALEY: Talk a little bit more about your day to day work. Did you work regular hours or did you work shift work?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, mostly regular hours. So you'd get up, exercise, and then get your breakfast at the chow hall and then start. I think by the time we actually started work, it was probably 9:00, you know, but--

BOWERS HEALEY: Was exercise, a unit exercise, or you just did that on your own?

SOBOROWSKI: A unit exercise.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you do that in the gym, in the cold weather or what?

SOBOROWSKI: Outside.

BOWERS HEALEY: Outside [Soborowski laughs].

SOBOROWSKI: It had to be -20 before you even thought about going in.

BOWERS HEALEY: Mm-hmm.

SOBOROWSKI: Sometimes colder, though,

like minus something get down to like zero degrees and then they might have us come in. But running we would still end up, you know, being outside. We'd do the, the beginning, warm-up stuff inside and then we'd all put our masks on and our gloves and go run outside. They did cold weather training there too, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where, did you do the cold weather training, too, or not?

SOBOROWSKI: No. Just every day.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, every day [Soborowski laughs].

SOBOROWSKI: You know what? People would come there to get the training in the cold,so. Yeah. It was entertaining for us to see people suffering [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you actually spend time, like, outside in a tent at night or something?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Well, we went to our training. We had a big tent, so everybody slept in the tent. Or we'd have a couple by your group. Like, whatever. The warehouse people all had their own tents. Heaters.

BOWERS HEALEY: How often did you do that type of training?

SOBOROWSKI: That was kind of like the cycle of, of your,

your work. So you, um, you're preparing. So maybe there's like a couple of months every couple of months we'd be out for two weeks at least. But you'd get, you'd start, you'd get ready. Here, this is what we're doing. We're doing this exercise. Then we prepare for that. As far as ordering items, getting everything ready, food, everyone had--you have to make all your--I'll just say, like customers, they have to get their food so all the other units have to order. You work on, you build up on all that stuff. You start packing all the trucks and then eventually yourself. And then afterwards, when once you're done with your training, you're going to be cleaning up your gear. It's almost like you would clean up all your gear, get it all put away, and then a couple of weeks later you already are going to start over again to do the same thing, to prepare to go back out again.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you were doing that because of the units that came in for training?Not just all

for training?

SOBOROWSKI: No, we were just doing that for readiness.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So they wanted to make sure that we were ready. And there was a lot of there was always a lot of. You know, sometimes we have certain once a year, I think it was there was like a readiness assessment we had to do to make sure we were ready for war. So they wanted to make sure that we could be deployed. So it's a constant cycle to be ready for that. We also did. My unit also did, it had built sling loading equipment.

BOWERS HEALEY: What's that?

SOBOROWSKI: It's like when you hook something to a helicopter and send it off to a location for someone. We would put food. You could put a Humvee in there. There's like a net. You put all that stuff in there, hang it up and it would, you get to hook it on the helicopter and then it goes off to the whatever site location. We did a lot of practice for that. We did practice even when it wasn't field

training. Sometimes we still practice some of those things to get everybody ready. So that was part of our inventory as well. So units would receive that stuff. And then in order to keep my position for that, doing that, because I liked that one, you know, it was some little warehouse off, you could just goof off and hang out up there waiting for somebody to be late [laughs] to pick up whatever they were picking up. So I was relaxing. But I, I wanted I, I also, I don't know, it felt good to have an opportunity to do air assault school, to learn all about the sling loading. You also have to do rappelling from helicopter, though.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you do that at Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, I did that.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So is that something that was required or that you volunteered for?

SOBOROWSKI: It was sort of required. I think they they really pushed me because they didn't have any women who had successfully went through the program. And they told me if I wanted to keep working on the sling load equipment I need, I should be qualified.

You know, these people coming in need to know I need to know this equipment fully. That's the training. But I did know it already from all the training I had onsite. So going into the training I, I had, I was very successful because I knew all the parts of sling loading and doing all that work. I had already done it in my field training every time.

BOWERS HEALEY: But I take it you hadn't done the rappelling.

SOBOROWSKI: Right. There's a lot of physical work. Pull ups, a lot of preparing to get ready for it because you had to go in. And I don't know if there was a number of pull ups, but you had to do an obstacle course. Is all upper body work.

BOWERS HEALEY: I was going to ask you, did you actually, are you were you at that time able to do pull ups?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, I could do pull ups. And you had to do pull ups every day to go in and out. So a lot of times I packed my lunch [laughs]

because it was so many. But you had to do an obstacle. You had a first get through an obstacle course, you know, pass your PT test with certain requirements. You had to get into an obstacle. You do this obstacle course, and then after that, you have to run two miles. So the obstacle course is tough, mostly because I'm short. That was some things were a little bit more difficult, but I made it all the way through and I did the run in the the time of the run that you had was kind of slow. I mean, it was slower than what anybody would have to, you know, after going through all that. So it wasn't too hard for me to get through it.

BOWERS HEALEY: You mentioned you were short. Tell me again, what is your what was your actual height when you were in the Army?

SOBOROWSKI: 5'1"

BOWERS HEALEY: 5'1". Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I actually had a special--like my uniform stuff. My arms are a little shorter and I would always have to have everything hemmed. Dress, the, you

know, the camouflage uniform didn't matter, but all the dress stuff, I had to have that specially short. Because they just always they'd all check me, surprised that my arms are so short.

BOWERS HEALEY: When did you the obstacle course was the obstacle course modified so that shorter people could actually get up on to the obstacles?

SOBOROWSKI: No, no. I just had to get up there, jump a little higher, reach a little further. I actually had to weave through this thing. That was the hardest one. You had to weave through these poles. And every time I had to go through there, it would only hit my arm here. It should have hit my chest and it would have hit my arm. So my arms were, like, black afterwards.

BOWERS HEALEY: Hmm.

SOBOROWSKI: For at least a week. It was gross the whole time.

BOWERS HEALEY: And at the time, you were the only woman to go through or where there men?

SOBOROWSKI: No, I was the only woman. But from my unit. Yes. There was no other women

in my unit.

BOWERS HEALEY: How often did you rappel from a helicopter?

SOBOROWSKI: After the training? Never. But I still did a lot of the sling loading tips, and we would do that for the field training and we would drop our stuff off over to the the infantry to for, you know, we'd have a sight. And then their training was receiving the the stuff and collecting the equipment. And then after the training they'd come back and bring us their equipment or we'd go pick up the equipment from where we dropped it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Something I haven't talked about or asked you about recently. You've gone through Korea and now you're at Fort Drum. Did you receive any promotions during that time?

SOBOROWSKI: So I got all the way to E-4 and then went, well, I thought it was kind of fast to go to E-2 and 3. That was quick. And then once I got to E-4, I started working towards becoming a sergeant. But E-5 is my final rank there, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did you have to go through any NCO school or something? Did you do that?

SOBOROWSKI: Thirty days.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where'd you do that?

SOBOROWSKI: I did that at right at Fort Drum.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So how did you do that before you made E-4 or E-5?

SOBOROWSKI: For E-5. To make E-5, you had to go through the training, and then you have to go to this, like, board of review type thing to become, answer all these questions. So it was hard. The the training was really good, though. The leadership training. I still use a lot of that information as a leader today.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Anything else you want to add to your active duty time in the army? Before we go on to transitioning out.

SOBOROWSKI: To think about exciting things I did. So I think that, you know, before becoming a sergeant, I was kind of young, I think.

I mean, I was I believe I was twenty-one. So which was young. That that was, all the other E-5s were a lot older than me that were already in, E-5 or were becoming one, even some of my peers, they'd be, some of them did, you know, move up and they actually have continued even in the military. But it was kind of exciting to become a sergeant before some of my peers that had been there before me. They were very encouraging, though.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did they put you in positions of greater responsibility hen you made E-5?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes, of course. Well, the first one was more of a joke [laughs]. You have, when they have the urinalysis thing, a sergeant has to watch the people go. So it was initiated. They couldn't wait [Bowers Healey laughs]. They said, we got something special for you. And then that's what it was.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right.

SOBOROWSKI: It was awful. Well, it was all right.

BOWERS HEALEY: How often did you do urinalysis?

SOBOROWSKI: And it was random if there was a con--but basically, if there was a concert that happened--

BOWERS HEALEY: Mm hmm.

SOBOROWSKI: --here was going to be one. And then they just would have these random ones that would. They'll come wake you up in the morning and you've got to do it until the next new sergeant comes.

BOWERS HEALEY: It says here, on urinalysis, I don't know if you have any opinion as to whether or not drug use is a problem in the military at the time that you were there in the late nineties?

SOBOROWSKI: I don't think so. I mean, maybe there could be, but many of the people I spent time with weren't really drinking lots of drinking, but no drugs.

BOWERS HEALEY: And drinking, you mentioned that you were opening the tabs of the cans in Korea. Was that because of your age?

SOBOROWSKI: No, I actually I wasn't even old enough to drink on base [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: I guess that's what I was getting.

SOBOROWSKI: No it wasn't because of my age. No, I just hung out there so much. They needed somebody

to, it was going to be a busy night. It was an easy job to do that they could ask someone who's not a bartender to do, so, yu didn't, like, in licensing in the U.S. or whatever, a person can serve alcohol if they have a bartender there.

BOWERS HEALEY: In Korea, what was, on base, what was the age for drinking?

SOBOROWSKI: Twenty. You had to twenty to drink.

BOWERS HEALEY: Which was different than in the United States, I take it?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And when you came back to the United States, what age were you?

SOBOROWSKI: I was not quite twenty-one yet. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So--

SOBOROWSKI: I think it was nineteen. Well, I started at eighteen. Oh, no. I was, I think it was 19 on base. So

BOWERS HEALEY: That was the drinking age or that was your own age?

SOBOROWSKI: No, nineteen in Korea. It was ninteen in Korea.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So it would have been my first. Oh, no, I. I'm trying to think about, when I had go there, when I when I arrived. It was twenty because it was later on, almost

gone. So they had a party for me. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And there was a curfew there too. Midnight. They had a curfew.

BOWERS HEALEY: For all military people? Was that a curfew to be back in your barracks or?

SOBOROWSKI: Just base.

BOWERS HEALEY: Just base. Okay. And what happened to, what would happen if you didn't show up before curfew?

SOBOROWSKI: I mean, nothing could happen at all. But if you you would, it was nice to know people that lived off base, because that's where you were going. You couldn't get back on.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see.

SOBOROWSKI: You're locked out. Better not to try to get back on either. So there was a couple of places where you could--it would be a long walk, but you could possibly sneak in. Most people got caught, though [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. Back at Fort Drum and I forgot now, was your active duty three years or four years?

SOBOROWSKI: Four years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Four years. So you joined

in '95, and by "99, you were ready to be discharged from active duty?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how did you learn about this transitioning? And did you immediately transition to the National Guard and then working in a government position? How did that work?

SOBOROWSKI: I started with the Guard first, and then I, some of the people I went to the National Guard with let me know that there was a job opening.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see, okay. So stayed, did you stay in New York State right after you got off of active duty?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And why did you stay in New York as opposed to Michigan or somewhere else?

SOBOROWSKI: Well, I had, because of my husband. My second husband. So I left my husband, my first husband. And then I had met my second husband while there.

We were friends. But then we both actually had, were going through divorce. So. But we, we decided, it wasn't very romantic [laughs], but we decided to get married. It was a good idea to stay together. And, not that we didn't love each other or anything, but just, let's just let's we don't need to do all this fancy fairytale stuff like that. And, you know--

BOWERS HEALEY: Was he from New York?

SOBOROWSKI: No, he's from Milwaukee. So. So we decided to get married, and then we moved off-base together.

BOWERS HEALEY: That was while you were still on active duty?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So I got, I got married just before I was done, but I didn't change my name until I left. So when I once I went to the National Guard, I did the name change.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And,

um. Was he in the military or not?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, that's. That's how, yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, He's actually one of the first people I met in the--he did the, like I said, it would be like HR, similar to HR.

BOWERS HEALEY: You met him in Korea or you met him--

SOBOROWSKI: No. New York.

BOWERS HEALEY: In New York.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And he did H.R. for the military or what?

SOBOROWSKI: It's. It was called personnel, I think.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: But he, when you when you come into a new unit, there's a person that has you fill out forms and so tells you where where to go and do all the stuff.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So what type of job did you get when you went from the Guard to working back on base? What were you doing?

SOBOROWSKI: It was basically a part, like a parts plant again. So I would order parts for they they did all the for all the National Guard units.

It was called New York Mates. M-A-T-E-S. So I know the M is for maintenance [laughs]--

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: --but they, they had tanks, they had Humvees, forklifts, everything. And basically it was kind of like the repair shop for the base, for the vehicles. So the vehicles would get a work order and they'd come in to us and order the parts, and then the mechanics would fix them and then they'd get issued back out.

BOWERS HEALEY: So were you actually working in a different place on Fort Drum than you had worked when you were on active duty?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. I was in a different building, and they had, that's where we did our, it's actually where we also met for National Guard time as well. So. Same same location.

BOWERS HEALEY: For meeting for National Guard. Was that monthly or what?

SOBOROWSKI: One weekend every month.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And how long did you stay there in New York?

SOBOROWSKI: Just a year.

BOWERS HEALEY: And why did you decide to leave?

SOBOROWSKI: My husband was getting out, getting out of active duty. So he was, we we looked at actually the benefits between Michigan and Wisconsin. And we actually looked at a few other locations. But Wisconsin really had the best veteran benefits of all of the places.

BOWERS HEALEY: How so?

SOBOROWSKI: They had a Wis--well, the big one, I think, was the, there was a Wisconsin GI Bill that my husband qualified for, so he could get both a federal and the Wisconsin one at the same time. Um, and then the VA, there was a VA right there in Milwaukee that was kind of close.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was he originally from Milwaukee, did you say?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Had you been back to Milwaukee at all after you

were married? Were you familiar with Milwaukee?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes. Before we got married, I actually went there and my dad lived in, uh, Plainfield, Illinois. So we actually kind of went together a little bit, and I went to visit my parents, and he visited his. That was, you know, one piece. And then I actually get to, my step mom actually took me to Milwaukee. So when when I left, I had a ride because she had to work. She worked both Illinois and Wisconsin. So she gave me a ride.

BOWERS HEALEY: Let me double back a little bit. After four years, you decided to get off of active duty. Was that a hard decision or did it have to do with your husband at the time?

SOBOROWSKI: It was a hard, kind of a hard decision. I had thought about, you know, career in the military, but I also had thoughts about, you know, if I have kids, do I want to be deployed from that?

And I was really interested in corporate life. I wanted to go to school. So I decided--at first it was a little hard, but I decided, well, you know, if I do the National Guard, I'm still part of the military, but I can start transition. It felt like a better transition way than just getting out completely. So I still have a piece of this--

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: --structure.

BOWERS HEALEY: So when did you come back to Milwaukee?

SOBOROWSKI: That was September of 2000?

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And when you got back here, did you switch to the Wisconsin Guard or not?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I had a unit there. My husband also joined the Guard. So we're both in the same unit.

BOWERS HEALEY: And in addition to the Guard, did you did, you did your husband, did you continue schooling or go to work, or what did you do?

SOBOROWSKI: I started going to school. And for business administration. I actually started at the University of Phoenix. I think that's what it's called.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: But I ended up getting, I had a couple of years. I didn't start the school right away. But when I finally started school, I got called to active duty. So I had to get a job, though, first, so I actually had to get a job. We got a place to live right away. So we both were working on getting jobs and another vehicle. So we only had one. And then we got kind of situated and then I started school. So that's probably like 2002. But in that time there was, September 11th happened, and that was a little bit of a concern right away for us if we were going to get called up then, but we didn't.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah. When September 11th happened in 2001. What was your feeling and where were you?

SOBOROWSKI: I was at work and

I actually called my unit. A whole bunch of us did. I called my unit to ask questions, and then I also called my old unit, some people from there, to see if everybody was, what was going on, if they were in upstate New York were they getting sent down? You know, just trying to keep tabs over. So. Nothing was happening that day, though. They, they, You know, it actually took a little longer. So in 2003 is when I get called up for active duty.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where were you called to?

SOBOROWSKI: We actually had no idea at first, but we did end up at Fort McCoy in Wisconsin. We did readiness, basically, for weapons, vehicles, tents. We did all of the work to--

BOWERS HEALEY: Just you got called up or your husband did too?

SOBOROWSKI: Just me.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So that was hard because we had to be separated. But we weren't too far away. At least that's-- for the

first few weeks, I had no idea. It's actually the reason I--They had cell phones then, but it wasn't like, everybody didn't have one like they do today. So we actually got a cell phone so that I didn't have to wait in line. The line was long to make calls.

BOWERS HEALEY: How long did you spend on active duty at Fort McCoy?

SOBOROWSKI: It was from January 2003 to July of 2004. I got extended involuntarily. I think I was supposed to be done in October of 2003, but they extended us out a little bit. So we could continue there.

BOWERS HEALEY: So about a year and a half for you.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah. Um. And we're a lot of your Guard people called up, or did it have, not have to do with your Guard status?

SOBOROWSKI: It had,

well, it was the positions that we held. So, what our jobs were. And my husband, Ted Charron, transferred to become a mechanic in the National Guard. And they didn't need mechanics.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you were in logistics?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Able to come home a lot on the weekends or not?

SOBOROWSKI: Not at first.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: It was probably at least six months before I could really come home. And then once you get sort of situated and sorted out, we had different, we had to share shifts, because there was different shifts, and then I would drive home and I think I drove like 500 miles a week once I could go home.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah.

SOBOROWSKI: I had the good car, so I had to drive, but, my fam--people could come and see me. I actually felt lucky I was, because I was a sergeant. I was one of the, as far as women were, there was not as many women

that were, you know, ser--officers, sergeants. I had to, I ended up going to the hotel. So the Holiday Inn there, in Tomah. I think it's a Best Western today. But right in Tomah. there was a Holiday Inn next to a cheese place, and they they had to put, there was a lot of officers in the, in the hotel, but they had to put a few women in the ho--they just didn't have enough room for the men.

BOWERS HEALEY: So that's where you were quartered for your--

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. For a good year almost.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Ten, eleven months, yeah. But it was nice, but it was tough because you had to the drive the commute was.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you had to drive? There wasn't a bus service in between?

SOBOROWSKI: No, you had to drive.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And that was, well, I had a car. So that was another helper for getting up there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: But my family could come and stay and visit me and I had an extra bed. So, it was nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah. Okay. And so you were called up on 2003 and then 2000--you were there until 2004?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Have I got that right? Um. Did you have active duty personnel supervising you or reserves or what, or you didn't know?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, it was. Well, no, it wasn't active duty unit personnel, but there were some base personnel that we supported. So they were actually like government contractors that worked there that we worked with. And I was assigned. I had a group--as the sergeant I was assigned a group of people that worked in my area that helped, that I--didn't necessarily report to me, but I basically had to be their guide for making sure they were in the right places and some of those things.

BOWERS HEALEY: How much notice did you have that your active duty time was coming to an end?

SOBOROWSKI: An end?

BOWERS HEALEY: Mm-hmm.

SOBOROWSKI: Then I had some, several months. So we had, we knew for quite a few months. Now, going there, maybe like three days.

BOWERS HEALEY: Three days to call up.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, still have your uniforms?

SOBOROWSKI: I do have some of them.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you have them then at that time? Did you hang on to them so that when you got called up--

SOBOROWSKI: Oh, I already needed them for, because every two, every summer--

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, that right.

SOBOROWSKI: --you go for two weeks and you had to wear it every weekend. But we did have to actually pick up some additional uniforms which was covered anyways for the active duty time they gave us then. And my by then I didn't have to special order my boots, my boots anymore. You could actually get them locally.

BOWERS HEALEY: Otherwise that was a problem when you first came on active duty?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. You don't want men sizes though, so

mine was like four-and-a-half, was the size.

BOWERS HEALEY: Mm-hmm. When you came on active duty the first time, did you have boots rights away or how did you get your boots?

SOBOROWSKI: They did have some boots, right, they did have some boots right away. But they they weren't they weren't very com-- I need a wi--I have very tiny feed, but I need wide ones. So they--

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: They had some boots for me to wear, but then I got some more. And I had to have socks sent to me always, because it was hard to find what kid-size socks [laughs]. Even just women's socks to find was a little bit difficult back then.

BOWERS HEALEY: Mm-hmm. So you had a couple of months in 2004 before you knew you were going to get released from Fort McCoy. Do they call it Fort McCoy or Camp McCoy?

SOBOROWSKI: Fort McCoy.

BOWERS HEALEY: Fort McCoy. And were you coming up to the end of a contract, or did you decide to get out, or how did you come to the end of your service in

2004?

SOBOROWSKI: So that was, my time was going to be done. So I was getting discharged and at the same time I was I was going to because I were already I didn't actually enlist, wasn't enlisted anymore. I was just extended. So they actually did a an appropriate transition. You know, you had to go through like you're getting out, so you had to go all the places and get all your stuff done too.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, so when you left Fort McCoy, you were in you no longer did any drills on a monthly basis or anything?

SOBOROWSKI: I was done.

BOWERS HEALEY: You were done. Your involuntary extension, ended?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Uh, and notice I wrote that time to continue on in the service?

SOBOROWSKI: No.

BOWERS HEALEY: No. Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I wanted to, um. Well, I wanted to finish school, so I didn't like that interruption. I had to quit. I did. I only took one or two classes, and then I had to quit. I could have probably done it, but with my

job that I had. And if I wanted to, like, go home or--

BOWERS HEALEY: What you do for a job?

SOBOROWSKI: I still did logistics work, so. Warehouse type stuff.

BOWERS HEALEY: In the civilian world?

SOBOROWSKI: Oh, no, not in the civilian world.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: No, I had. I worked at an auto parts store at the time, and then--

BOWERS HEALEY: Before you got called up into the army?

SOBOROWSKI: No, actually, I worked in an auto parts store as a depot manager, but then I worked in a computer repair company. It was as a supply--actually, I was several jobs, and one I was like the front desk person. And I also handled their inventory and shipping and receiving and it was a smaller branch of the company.

BOWERS HEALEY: So when you got called up in 2003 and had about three days notice, were you actually in school or taking a class at the time?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you just had to drop that and leave it?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, I probably didn't have to, but I just I didn't think I could handle those--it was too much for me

to be in school and getting called up.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, were you doing online classes?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, it was online classes, but it was still too much. And then I didn't have my own computer--

BOWERS HEALEY: Mhm.

SOBOROWSKI: Tat I could use my, you know, take with me. They did have some stuff, but it for me it just didn't feel like I was going to be able to succeed. Plus with my work, my job, I was concerned, you know, depending on, which I was right, we had different shifts. So it would have been very difficult to manage some of those, the time. And that was new, online school was very new. So it wasn't something like today, I would say if if I, if I was in that same position right now, I would just have stayed in school. But it's so streamlined now for online schooling that it's different.

BOWERS HEALEY: So in 2004, you got off active duty and left the military. What did you do

after that?

SOBOROWSKI: So I went back to my job. And while they did hold my job, they actually paid a small, a little difference between--I think for like six months or something. But they paid a little difference. But they they eliminated my position. I think they couldn't do it while I was there. So they had eliminated my position and I lost my job in November. So it felt devastating. But I actually got a job as a government contractor at the for 440th Airlift Wing before it was closed. It was a nice job.

BOWERS HEALEY: What did you do?

SOBOROWSKI: I was an equipment manager, which was, I handled like big assets. Make sure, like the large equipment items, you know, furniture, vehicles, things like that. Make sure all those are there. And then if someone

needed to order something big, I would help with that. And then we also, we all supported, no matter what your position was there, everyone had to know how to order the they had airplanes, so everyone was trained to help with that piece of it and order airplane parts if they needed them.

BOWERS HEALEY: How long--you said the 440th closed, or terminated?

SOBOROWSKI: They did close.

BOWERS HEALEY: So how long do you have the job?

SOBOROWSKI: I was there from December 2004 until February of 2006. And I got, I they were already closing. So I had, I was trying to look for a position but I actually got called because see if you you would put like Monster [.com]--at one of those places. I had a resume out there and I got called up to work at P&H Mining.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. P&H Mining?

SOBOROWSKI: They are

and today they are Komatsu. But when I started, it was P&H Mining and then it became Joy Global.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what did they do?

SOBOROWSKI: They. They manufacture mining equipment. It's like big shovels and underground. Well, we didn't they don't do the underground specifically. But they they are they started in Milwaukee, like 1885. I think. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. You still work there?

SOBOROWSKI: No, I actually left there. I stayed there all the way until 2018.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: At least. Maybe it was less than that, I guess. I'm trying to think about the timeline. Um, yeah, '17 or '18. Somewhere around there when I left. Um, I just wasn't happy there. I mean, it was really good. I, I

liked all the stuff I did, but the, um, the people were changing, and then I, I just wasn't really getting along with the new people, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And it really, I'm kind of glad. I mean, I always. In the in the mining environment in general. You know, someone who's humble and, uh, has a softer approach. It doesn't necessarily fit in there. So, you know, I honestly I wouldn't say the company itself, but, you know, honestly, I feel like it's a little bit tough to be just be a woman. You know, if you wanted to, like, have a better job or whatever, it's a little tougher for the women. And, you know, part of it is the customers are a little rougher or whatever. So I didn't care about any of those things at all. I just, um, I just wasn't mean or loud or any of those types of things. I had a very different approach. So I decided

I don't really like this environment. And the company was really great though, so it's very hard to leave. Honestly, even though I was unhappy for years, I just loved the company itself. It's just my department, I guess kind of wasn't the same. Certain people left and then it that dynamic that we had where everybody is, you know, this part of this great team kind of was starting to go away. And so but I went to Metso for a couple of years and that was also mining just a different type of equipment, but it's similar, that kind of mining.

BOWERS HEALEY: Is that M-A-T-S-O?

SOBOROWSKI: M-E-T-S-O. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: ETSO?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay? All these companies and places in the Milwaukee area?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And they were good too great company, you know, on the higher level they but it was still sort of similar so much. It was the job though that I took was I didn't expect

to be, you know, having to work sixty hours a week or, you know, it's just sometimes some of the work that it seemed appealing, you know, the pay the job. But it's so much work. They really needed more people to be doing the job or split up some of the tasks. Too much going on though. So I, I, I don't know. I just decided, well, you know, maybe I did. I made this change, but I'm not stuck with this for I already know what it's like to leave a job. I can do this again. So I now I work for Cargill. I don't think I'll ever leave that place. They're the best company I've ever worked for.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what does Cargill will do?

SOBOROWSKI: They do a lot. They make chocolate here and we have a protein plant. Salt.

BOWERS HEALEY: Um. And Cargill is C-A-R-G-I-L-L?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: There's animal feed. There's so much stuff. It's on the on the the back ground

of the supply side. Well, I don't actually do supply there, but I did well in the mining stuff I vdid pricing. And then I was the project manager and then I became a project manager of Metso. And then now I'm a contract manager.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Is the best way to say it.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you like that job?

SOBOROWSKI: I like my job. I get to--

BOWERS HEALEY: You like the company.

SOBOROWSKI: --help people develop? Yeah, the company is wonderful. And when I think about, you know, empowering women, this is a place that's working towards equity in pay. Helping women in, you know, everywhere to succeed. You know, there's programs like in West Africa where there's a program they have that helps that I just learned about. I'm just always impressed with all the things that they do to help everywhere that they are in the world. They really try to make the world a better place. And no matter who you are or what you're like, any of your preference, any of that stuff, it's like very welcome

there. They don't, they don't care about that stuff. Do your job, be happy. People first. And that's. Yeah, I don't know. I feel that I have that comfort. In being myself I can, if I am assertive, no one's getting upset that I was assertive. Which I like. So, some of my military leadership style with my not so harsh approach, it really fits in there so I can be direct and assertive to get this done. And I know once you know that my idea's better or any of those kind of things.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And I understand that you've been involved with the VFW and American Legion?

SOBOROWSKI: Oh, Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Tell me about that.

SOBOROWSKI: I brought this. It's all wrinkly, but I brought this. This is where it all started.

BOWERS HEALEY: And go ahead and read what--the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Read what that is.

SOBOROWSKI: It's just a it's a certificate of recognition. It's from Camp Douglas,

a post in Camp Douglas. When I was at Fort McCoy, I joined. They said, if you had served in Korea, you could join the VFW. They changed the rules. And I helped them with their bingo. I didn't have anything to do, especially during the week. So I would come. I would come out there on their bingo nights and do like the calling the numbers back or selling extra tickets or whatever it was. But it was a really fun activity, something to do. And some of my buddies came with me too to help there. And I--

BOWERS HEALEY: That's when you were at Fort McCoy, called to active duty?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. You want to turn that around again and bring it up closer to the camera up here? Okay. I got a good shot of it. Thank you. All right.

SOBOROWSKI: So I was. This is how I started volunteering with the VFW initially. So volunteering at bingo was fun.

And it gave me something to do without just watching TV, you know [Bowers Healey laughs]? And once in a while, we would play bingo, too.

BOWERS HEALEY: And Camp Douglas is not too far from Tomah, I take it?

SOBOROWSKI: Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: It wasn't too far. So it's really nice to have something to do.

BOWERS HEALEY: Good.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. I enjoyed it. And then when I came here, it actually was a few years before I transferred out of the post. I stayed with the post, came back, and I didn't--it was too far away then after that. But someone I worked with suggested the post I'm in now.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what post is that?

SOBOROWSKI: That's 10394. They're in Hales Corners.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: There's a wee bit of a drive, but the group was really good.

BOWERS HEALEY: And that's a VFW?

SOBOROWSKI: Yep.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And I've been there ever since. I can't remember exactly when I joined, so I'm sure it's been more than ten years now.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay.

SOBOROWSKI: You know, probably

more, but at least ten.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you're a member or?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, I'm a member.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And. They have a lot of stuff that they do. So they have like picnics and there's volunteering you can do so. And every year the the big one is St. Martin's Fair.

BOWERS HEALEY: What's that all about?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, so St. Martin's Fair is kind of like a big flea market type thing. Come out there and they have a big strip up there and they sell things. You can buy pretty much anything. Ther's vegetables. There's toys, there's clothes, all kinds of stuff. It's a big one. And there's music at different places. And the VFW, though, they have music, they have they sell raffle tickets and there's food and they sell like beer and stuff, so andwe have a, the post has a property up there too. So that's a big deal over here. I spend the whole time there helping. It's fun.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. In addition

to your your VFW connection, have you done anything else with military groups?

SOBOROWSKI: Actually the American Legion.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what have you done with the American Legion?

SOBOROWSKI: Well, I joined. I joined this post that was all women. I was in that post for a little while.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And then my VFW post also has an American Legion that's kind of some of the same people in both posts. And then they meet like this, you know, one day after each other. Okay. So I decided I just, you know, for the women's group, it was a good idea. And they probably were thriving at some time. But I just didn't really care for the whole idea of being separated from like, it's only women, you know? I don't know. That's just to me, I think the camaraderie

doesn't matter if it's men or women, you know, people that were in the army, they were in the army. So we can have conversations, but. And it was harder to be as active. So. I just I felt like, you know, I wanted to try something different. Busier post. So, um. And now I'm the finance officer of the, the post, I mean.

BOWERS HEALEY: Of the VFW post?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. That's a big job.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. It's not too bad. I guess I did. I have upgraded us a little bit into the into current technology, so it's getting much easier already.

BOWERS HEALEY: Were you ever able to--I know you've been working almost all the time. Did you take advantage of the GI Bill at all?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes. Yes, I did, because I went to--I actually got a bachelors degree in business administration. And I had a focus of project

management in there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And that's what I use that for. But then I also I continued on to and I got a master's degree in project management.

BOWERS HEALEY: And when did you get the bachelor's degree and from what school?

SOBOROWSKI: DeVry University. And it was 2008.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how about the masters degree?

SOBOROWSKI: Uh, 2012 I finished.

BOWERS HEALEY: Same university? DeVry?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, it's Keller, but it's part--Keller and DeVry are kind of linked.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Well, I think we've gone pretty much through your career. In addition to your being active in the VFW, have you ever gone out and talked with schools or talked with anybody else concerning your military experience?

SOBOROWSKI: Only recently we--Whitnall

Middle School had a really nice program. They did it last year and then I didn't participate last year, but this year I went. It was wonderful. They had a they had us go and speak to all the students. So it was an assembly for all of us. They showed our pictures on the screen and it was nice as the band, the choir, all that stuff. And then we go to the classrooms and we go to the different classrooms and they ask us questions about our time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you enjoy that?

SOBOROWSKI: I liked it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Some--I wasn't prepared for some of the, questions weren't as specifically focused on military career, you know, more about like questions about your--I wasn't ready for questions about myself [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So it does seem like any of the, anyone was interested in joining the military or not?

SOBOROWSKI: There was a few. And there was a there was also a Boy

Scout that was, he was in his uniform that was there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: He was really excited about that. So, you know, I think Coast Guard family, but.

BOWERS HEALEY: I didn't ask you. But did you join the military or on a delayed enlistment while you were still in the, still in high school or not?

SOBOROWSKI: No, no.

BOWERS HEALEY: You did that after--

SOBOROWSKI: It was after. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: But right after high school I take it.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yep. Okay. Is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to add to this oral history? Oh, I got another question, why did you decide to do this oral history or who told you about it?

SOBOROWSKI: Actually, some contacts from the--oh, well, there's some contacts from the--here name is Marcia, but she told us about the "I Am Not Invisible" campaign. That's kind of how it started there. And she's always encouraging. She's always encouraging people to, especially women.

BOWERS HEALEY: Is she part of the VFW or not?

SOBOROWSKI: She's part. That's how I met her. She's in VFW.

But she's in that women's post and she's also--she's a busy lady [laughs]. She's so busy, but she encourages all this stuff for women, which is nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I really like that. She. She keeps us informed about, well, she keeps everybody informed. But when it's that women's stuff, she makes sure that we hear, are interested to do this, or she might encourage us to do it. So. Us girls have to stick together.

BOWERS HEALEY: So anything that you would like to add to this, to your oral history that I haven't asked you about? Any particular experiences that stick out or memorable events or any particular leader that was instrumental in getting you through your military career?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, well, there is a, this sergeant, his name was Sergeant Ligenfelter.

BOWERS HEALEY: Spell that.

SOBOROWSKI: I don't know how to spell it [laughs]. Ligenfelter.

BOWERS HEALEY: Ligenfelter.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

And where was he?

SOBOROWSKI: He was at Fort Drum, and he was kind of like my mentor to becoming a sergeant. He taught me a lot of stuff. He really helped me learn how to not--there's a there's a transition piece when you become a leader where you can still do some of the work, but you have to delegate. You have to let the team do it. And you just, it feels weird because you're not doing the work yourself. That was a very important learning for me to to understand that piece of being a leader. Some of those things that distinguish, you know, when you when people think about, "Well, the boss doesn't do any work," because they're not supposed to. And then, you know, and he helped me too that there is a hard time when you're the leader and these people were your peers. So that that becomes very, it can become uncomfortable because they're, you're going to have to make decisions that are, they don't like and have

uncomfortable conversations. And I mean those basic leadership skills that he helped me with. You know, I use those today.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was he an E-5 or was he?

SOBOROWSKI: He was an E-5.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So.

BOWERS HEALEY: Good.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, but we didn't have cell phones. Or if there was someone I could look for, I'd want to see, you know, share where I'm at today and things like that.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: That would be nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah.

SOBOROWSKI: And then I also I when I was at Fort Drum, there was a we had a field training exercise where we had some warrant officers there with us. I'm not sure exactly why they were there, but they were actually helping me do my job. But my sergeant kept not being there and I took over some stuff. I did whatever. I learned a few things about what to do. I don't know what was happening with him, but I had to do a lot of stuff and I ended up getting put in for an award. The Secretary

of Defense came in. It was like '98. The Secretary of--it's on the Internet too.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, the actual Secretary of Defense was there?

SOBOROWSKI: William Cohen.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And the Secretary of the Army was there, too. But I got I got to sit with them, talk about issues. And actually, we got to, um, have received an award. There was I think there was two people who were actually received a Army--I got an Army Achievement Medal that was signed by him. So I didn't, I couldn't find it [laughs]. But it was exciting. And there's there's a picture of us like sitting and on the Internet. We're sitting with our plates and I have my face all camouflaged up.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So. That was, I thought that was cool. And, um, and then we had a few other people, like there was other people sitting with some other dignitaries that were there. Of course, the funniest part, I suppose, is that we had to do

a weed-eater out in the field so they didn't have to go through the tall grass.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh.

SOBOROWSKI: For the helicopter [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: And that was before the Secretary of Defense came?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I thought that, why are they doing---once we understood what was happening--

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: --it makes sense. Okay. But just doing it. Some people didn't know they were you know, they didn't tell everybody they were coming. So, um. And they didn't tell me that I was getting an award, just that I was sitting with them. So that was kind of a surprise. But all that hard work I did, it was the most exciting reward. I mean, I didn't get any extra pay or anything else, but that praise and recognition was a big deal to me that I was, I worked hard. I was losing weight because I didn't have time to eat, which wasn't terrible then [Bowers Healey laughs]. But still, you know, I was tired and hungry and, you know, it, after that the rest of our field

training was so much more, it felt better after that. Just anything I was doing to know that they actually paid attention to me and recognized me.

BOWERS HEALEY: And do you think maybe the warrant officers noticed and put you up front?

SOBOROWSKI: They did. Yes, they did.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Yeah.

SOBOROWSKI: [noise as looks through material] my old military [inaudible]--

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I got all kinds of cool stuff. So. This has the the Wisconsin patch because that's that was my last--

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And what is that?

SOBOROWSKI: I can't remember. I feel terrible, but it's it was for the Wisconsin Guard stuff, so I should have looked it up. So yeah, this is my, quartermaster, is what logistics is under. And then--

BOWERS HEALEY: Point again to the quartermaster.

SOBOROWSKI: It's exciting.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Got it.

SOBOROWSKI: And these these represent all the medals that you get that I received in [inaudible].

BOWERS HEALEY: And what is the device above the

ribbons?

SOBOROWSKI: This is the the exciting one here. That's the Air Assault School.

BOWERS HEALEY: And when did you do Air Assault School?

SOBOROWSKI: Air Assault School is somewhere--maybe, probably 1998. So, then I got my rank.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And where did you do the Air Assault School? So where did you do the Air?

SOBOROWSKI: That was at Fort Drum.

BOWERS HEALEY: Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. So I can't. I'd have to look up what all these medals are. There's different you know, there's a humanitarian campaign one in there. That was a big ice storm. Um, I'm trying to think of when that was.

BOWERS HEALEY: Humanitarian Service Medal?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you've got the Army Achievement Medal.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And the Humanitarian Service Medal, you said because of a big ice storm.

SOBOROWSKI: There was a big ice storm in upstate New York, and we had to actually go and, like, evacuate people from their homes. And the ice was like an inch thick. And there we didn't have power. We had generators for a certain period of time. And then after that, we had flashlights.

So we didn't always have the power on.

BOWERS HEALEY: And this was a winter in Fort Drum?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, I'd have to look it up. But in that time it was probably '97, maybe it was 1998. Um, but it's, you know, it was a well-documented event because it was, it was a huge impact and we were trying to get these people to come in. They had like kerosene heaters in their home or we were bringing food out to some people, kind of do a welfare check. It was a really enlightening experience. I mean, I just was so shocked that, you know, people are sick from the kerosene smoke and they don't want to leave their house, you know? So I've seen other things where people don't want to evacuate. I. I understand it's a very difficult job to convince someone to, that you want to take them to a safer place. They don't believe you.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did some come?

SOBOROWSKI: Even in your uniform. Some came.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So, and we were trying to-- I know it was military families too, but I spend a little bit more time actually afterwards, mostly because I'm a more peoplely person. I also spent time working, you know, on the, with the people that were taking out families that were takin' refuge on the base. So. But I did also deliver a lot of stuff. You know, we'd deliver it to a certain location. So you drive out to like a school over there and then people can go there and get this hot food that we bring out to them.

BOWERS HEALEY: So are people being sheltered in gymnasiums and--

SOBOROWSKI: All kinds of stuff, yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Both on base and off base?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. And then--yeah, the off base. I didn't really understand why we were going, you know, off- base for some stuff, but they did send us out. So. I just followed orders [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: But it was a lot of food that we brought. So it just. But I did

have I did end up having to go to someone's house and try to get them to come in to base. You know, there's military families, but please come on base. Please come stay. You know, especially the ones with smaller children.

BOWERS HEALEY: And they didn't have heat other than kerosene?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, kerosene heaters. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah. Yeah, okay.

SOBOROWSKI: That was dangerous. So if it would have been a space heater, that might be different. But there was no power. So. I think it was at least a week we didn't have power. So, I mean, it was kind of fun, though, everybody, nobody's watching TV [Bowers Healey laughs]. We were all in the hallway with flashlights, playing games in the hallways. Cards, all those things.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: It was an exciting experience, too, to go through. And then again, it the, just like the volunteering for the the VFW, that community service. I just I really enjoy that piece of things. You know,

I never thought I'd be doing something like that in the Army, you know, going out, trying to get people to leave their house, you know?

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure.

SOBOROWSKI: So I thought that was a really cool thing. And then I really haven't done anything else outside, you know, speaking with people, besides those two groups. But I have--it's been beneficial for jobs, too. When they find out that you were in the military, that really makes a difference. You got a couple positions because of that.

BOWERS HEALEY: And they commented on it during the hiring process?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, well, one of the jobs I got, though, they said I didn't look like someone who was in the army. Apparently, I should be taller and have broader shoulders [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, in terms of what you look like when you were in the service, what did you do? What were you required to do with your hair? Did you keep it shorter or did you pull it back or?

SOBOROWSKI: My hair was very long and I always had it in a bun.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: A little tiny bun. But it was easier to keep it long and just put in a bun. So when I would be off- duty, though, no one ever thought I was in the military at all. They couldn't tell if I was a soldier. I mean, I suppose if they would have looked at like my arms, then they might think I'm. They might realize, you know. So I always wear longer sleeves, though, so I didn't have to move. But my arms were just so muscly that I didn't want to show them off.

BOWERS HEALEY: Anything else that you would like to add to this? And I don't want to push too much. You've covered a lot of ground, so.

SOBOROWSKI: It's not necessarily the military, But I do have a son. My husband and I have a son who's 14.

BOWERS HEALEY: Mhm.

SOBOROWSKI: He's not interested in the military at all [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: But he is a scout, so I feel like we had some influence there. He's interested in becoming an Eagle Scout, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure. Okay

SOBOROWSKI: He's working

his way through that stuff and he's, he's, you know, he lets, he always make sure people know that we were in the Army.

BOWERS HEALEY: Very interesting. Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: He's proud of that. He doesn't want to do it, but he's very proud of it. And I have a twin brother who went to the Air Force. So when we talk about communication, imagine trying to call someone who is also in training. Oh, but we found each other. We found ways in even, you know, even though drill sergeants have that bad rap that they have. Like, when we talk to the kids on Veterans Day, they their impression of what a how mean a drill sergeant, you know, is is not really what it is at all [laughs]. They're just pushing you to do better. But they helped us connect each other. Our units did. And we actually get to talk.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did your brother join right after the high school also?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, he went first.

So I'd say that was probably the the hardest part. When my brother, when my twin left.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. Did he stay for one tour or what?

SOBOROWSKI: Well, he went for twenty years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So yeah, he did 20 years.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where did he retire?

SOBOROWSKI: In Washington, DC.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, so he's not really close to you anymore?

SOBOROWSKI: No, no. We've been apart since we we left home. So we've seen each other over the years, so. But that was always something very important to us to make sure. And like, on our birthday, you know, to call each other.

BOWERS HEALEY: Were you the only two siblings in your family that went into the service? Yes.

SOBOROWSKI: Okay. But I have an uncle and aunt on my dad's side that both went to military--one, Marines one, Army, and my mom's brother went to Vietnam. So I'm trying to think that's probably about it. And my nephew that he'd spent a lot of time with us, he actually ended up in the military.

So no real-life siblings there. But the one who spent the most time with us ended up going.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, he had a nephew living with you, or just visiting a lot?

SOBOROWSKI: And he might as well have just lived there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: He was there so much.

BOWERS HEALEY: He branch did he serve?

SOBOROWSKI: He went to the army.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So. So he had influence over someone. Not your son, but somewhat.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah, well, he might change his mind. And that's okay, though. I think that either way, my son understands the, you know, veterans and things. So he's been volunteering with me for stuff. He's helped me in all kinds of volunteering. Not just--I don't just volunteer in the veteran community. I actually run a neighborhood watch and I my son's not in the Cub Scouts anymore, but I am a a key leader for his old Cub Scout pack. And now I'm taking over as the scoutmaster for my son's troop. Oh, so my leadership just continues to

really shine through. And I think those delegating--the reason I, you know, was appointed to do that. But I think that learning that delegation was a key, you know, because most people don't want to be in charge of it. They'll do all the work, but they don't want to be in charge. So I don't know why, it's better, sort of. I don't mind holding extra responsibility. I'm comfortable with it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Well, it's interesting that you emphasized that that's something you got out of the military and learned in the military.

SOBOROWSKI: It's confidence.

BOWERS HEALEY: Leadership.

SOBOROWSKI: There's a confidence in yourself. You know, I can do this. I know exactly what to do and how to do it, you know, And I'm not worried about if somebody doesn't like the decision or the, you know, I'm going to make a responsible, thoughtful decision that covers whatever that is. But yeah, I do think that's the biggest thing is my leadership for sure. I think I already have a kind of natural leadership that somehow

I always end up in charge of stuff. I try not to be and I always end up running after leading or and I try to avoid. I prefer to mentor someone as they could be the leader and I help them do that. That's kind of where I want to be in life now rather than be the one who's in charge of it. You can take over and I can help you, know. Like maybe not like a drill sergeant, though [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Had you been offered the opportunity to be a drill sergeant, would you have taken that duty?

SOBOROWSKI: Um, no, I don't think I would. They have to put in way too much time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Fair enough.

SOBOROWSKI: From home.

BOWERS HEALEY: Fair enough. Yeah.

SOBOROWSKI: If I could just show up during the day. Sure. No, An instructor would be nice, though, to be some sort of an instructor would be a nice kind of opportunity as well. But I think, you know,

taking a group of people who are all. That's what I you know, you take this group of people that are all from different groups and whatever, and they become this well-oiled machine together. My development skills as a as a supervisor of people, you know, I'm able to use it to help them grow in what they're supposed to do, which we have a mission. I always use all the words, though. I say mission, you know [laughs], So and then, you know, I'm trying to say objective, but I can't help it. I would say all the--then the teams used to me, though, they know what I mean. Or I have to ask of them sometimes because I'm thinking in the military terms of I don't want to say, you know, jumping the gun or stuff like that. Tried to--I learned a lot, though, how to be more into the civilian world from when

I went to the 440th and working with the Air Force. It's to me, it ran much like a business. The way they did things, I was impressed. Like, Oh, maybe I should have went to the Air Force [both laugh]. I didn't like the jobs for the Air Force, so that's why I want the army. So everyone prevalent, they ask, why didn't my brother go to the Air Force. Why did I go to the Army, you know.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you did some looking around and apparently your brother did too. What did he do in the Air Force?

SOBOROWSKI: He was an electrician.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. He may have said that. And if you wanted logistics, so and most of the jobs that you've had have related to logistics throughout your career.

SOBOROWSKI: Somehow they tie into it. It's a little different now, but. But my knowledge of logistics continues to come in handy because you're you're working with contracts and sales orders and things like that. And all of those things

lead to logistics. So if we make sure our information is accurate. We can. Everything else usually runs pretty smooth.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right, Well, I don't have any other questions, so, thanks for taking the time today. And, oh, you have something else?

SOBOROWSKI: I forgot I had a couple of--

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: I lookked everywhere for pictures, but it was pretty hard to find them. I don't have a lot of pictures of myself. I got a funny one too. So I have a picture of me and my husband.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Let me see--

SOBOROWSKI: This is actually Milwaukee--

BOWERS HEALEY: --towards the camera.

SOBOROWSKI: --but in my uniform.

BOWERS HEALEY: Let me make sure that's coming in. So who's that in between you?

SOBOROWSKI: That is my husband's uncle.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And your husband's a little bit taller than you are [Soborowski laughs]. And both in uniform.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And then here's one I. And I don't remember the sergeant's

name, but we had a military ball.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And it's like, got a picture of that.

BOWERS HEALEY: It takes a while for the camera to focus. So it's in focus now. That's you and your husband again?

SOBOROWSKI: No, no, no.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, no.

SOBOROWSKI: It's one of a sergeant that we worked with.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All righty. And--

SOBOROWSKI: I know-- this is at Great Lakes, actually. When I was in the National Guard, we had to do a training, and they wanted some of the women leaders to go to this training. It was like a mass casualty exercise.

BOWERS HEALEY: Is that a picture of you or someone else?

SOBOROWSKI: That's me.

BOWERS HEALEY: That's you with the with the weapon on the deck? On the ground.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: So it was a good exercise. And then [laughs] I'm in the back running and I'm a little slow and too short to hold this boat.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Are you in this picture?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. The short person who can't reach the boat back there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, I see. Okay,

got it.

SOBOROWSKI: So, um, this is, you can't really see it. I thought you could, but there's a Humvee here, and it's. I'm not in this picture. There's a Humvee here, and they're putting this sling loading equipment on to send it to a location. They take all the doors off and tie them up, and then when they receive it at the drop location, they put the doors up, back on.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. Good explanation.

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah. And then this one is just me and some of my friends off duty having some fun.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: Those big arms.

BOWERS HEALEY: Take a moment [Soborowski laughs] to get into focus here. And which one is you?

SOBOROWSKI: I am in the front.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: All the way on the right.

BOWERS HEALEY: And off duty. And where were you located at the time?

SOBOROWSKI: Fort Drum.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: And then here's a very fun one that I found. Somebody took my picture [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: We were going to the military

ball. Going to one.

BOWERS HEALEY: Looks like you were in the barracks at the time?

SOBOROWSKI: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: With the racks in the back?

SOBOROWSKI: The pre-party [laughs].

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you would have been at Fort Drum at that time?

SOBOROWSKI: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Well, good pictures. And we've got them on film here.

SOBOROWSKI: They're on film. It was hard to find some with me in there. I worked towards it later to try to at least be in a few pictures. And I usually take them all, and I forget that I should be in there too.

BOWERS HEALEY: Anything else in your bag there you want to show us?

SOBOROWSKI: [Rustling] the bag. Nothing else.

BOWERS HEALEY: Nothing else. Okay.

SOBOROWSKI: There we go. I almost forgot about the pictures. I was like, "Hey, I searched for those on purpose [laughs]." That's all I have.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Well, thank you. And on behalf of the Wisconsin Veterans Museum, appreciate you contributing to the oral history. Thank you.

SOBOROWSKI: All right. Thanks a lot.

[Interview Ends]