Oral History Interview with Louise A. Stack

[Interview Begins]

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Today is March 3rd, 2023. And this is an interview with and I'm going to ask you to please state your name.

STACK: Louise Stack.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And what is your middle name, Ann, and your maiden name at the time you entered the service.

STACK: Was my last name was Lex. So Louise Ann Lex.

BOWERS HEALEY: And Lex is L-E-X, is that correct?

STACK: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: And any other names you had while you were in the service?

STACK: Yes. I had gotten married in 1976, and so my last name was Louise Willsey. Was the last name: W-I-L-L-S-E-Y.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, thank you. And this interview again is with Louise Stack, who served in the United States Army from 1974 to 1980. Is that correct? Correct. Okay. And this interview is being conducted by Ellen Bowers Healy in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else is present for this interview. Can you tell me where you were born, Louise?

STACK: I actually was born. Both my parents had been in the Air Force. However, my mother had been discharged, of course, prior to my birth. And then my dad was from Milwaukee. My mom was from Minnesota. So after Dad was discharged from the Air Force, he attended school in Idaho, and then we came back to the Milwaukee area. So I would have been about five at that time. And we lived in south Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you mentioned that both of your parents were in the Air Force. What did your mother do in the Air Force?

STACK: She actually had wanted to be a ferry pilot that they like they had done in World War Two. She already had a pilot's license when she joined the Air Force. But it was the Korean War and they didn't have any fair women fairy pilots. So they put her into medical administration. She had been she had worked at the Mayo Clinic as. Um, medical transcriptionist, I think. And so she spent her time in the Air Force, in the medical field.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And how much time did you spent? Did she spend in the Air Force, if you know, roughly.

STACK: It was close to two years. I think after she married my dad, he was transferred to the base in Idaho. And they didn't have a position for mom there. So she took a discharge.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And your father, what did he do in the military?

STACK: He also worked in the medical field. He was a dental assistant.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And how much time did he spent in the Air Force?

STACK: He was in the Air Force for years.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. You also indicated in your intake interview that your family as a whole, not just your mom and dad, have has a history of service. Talk to us briefly about that.

STACK: Our family, we can trace family history back to the Civil War. But my immediate family. Two of my brothers were in the Marines. I have cousins that were in the Army. One was an Army nurse. My other cousin, Wally, retired from the military, is a master sergeant, I believe, and then only got beyond their my mom. When she went into the Air Force, she went with a cousin of hers and then another cousin. Most of most of the family, the female family members that were in the military were in the medical field. But my dad's family, they go about, like I mentioned earlier, a couple were we lost a couple of World War Two. Um, and my dad, his mom, my dad was Air Force and his brother was in the Army. And I also have cousins on Dad's side that were in the military.

BOWERS HEALEY: So. Okay. So that leads me to my next question. Was that military service in your family, did that influence your decision or was it completely independent?

STACK: That's a little different. I kind of resisted going into the military at first, even though my parents encouraged me to do that. And I thought, no, I don't want to do the same thing everybody else is doing. And at the time, after I graduated high school, I really didn't have any focus and I wasn't going to college. But my brother Vietnam was going on at the time and my brother Jim got drafted, so he had left both the Marines and because of the economy at the time, I really I wasn't like I said, I didn't have any goals or any focus and just part time jobs. So then I thought, well, perhaps the military is a good spot for me. And as it turned out, it was okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was your brother Jim older or younger than you?

STACK: A year younger.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you said you graduated high school. Where did you graduate high school.

STACK: So Milwaukee High School.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you had a part time job. What were you doing?

STACK: My dad had a furniture business, a used furniture and unfinished furniture. So I worked there. I also worked at a golf course and I also worked at Burger King. So really, none of the jobs were especially fulfilling.

BOWERS HEALEY: How much time between your high school graduation date and going down to enlist?

STACK: Three and a half years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you told us about your varied family history. What made you choose the Army?

STACK: Well, in truth, I chose the Air Force and I was £1 overweight.

Speaker 3 So take me.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you went to the Army. And tell me a little bit about the process of going through enlistment. Was that back in 1974, or did you contact them earlier than that?

STACK: It was 1974.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you went to the Air Force and did not make the Air Force or you went to the Army. And so what type of information did the Army give you or offer to you? And were you how much time between the time you contacted them before you shipped out to your basic training?

STACK: Oh, gosh. I would say I if I remember correctly, it was about a month. And but what I had done is I had gone to a recruiter to begin with. Okay. Then they had the AP station downtown Milwaukee, and I was sent there for testing. So the testing results, I had done really well and they said that I could choose. I didn't have a plan in mind. They said they gave me like two pages of jobs and said, You can pick from these categories. And I happened to see that military police was open for women. And in high school, I had had a social studies teacher who talked highly of law enforcement and said that it was it was important job. And I thought that made me think. And so that's how I ended up choosing military police.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And back in 1974, were there physical requirements before you went to training or not?

STACK: There were. The weight, of course, had to be a certain weight and a certain height. Well, especially for employees, you had to have a certain height and.

BOWERS HEALEY: Say, what was that height?

STACK: It was five four.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: I was just kind of in between and. I just stretched my arm. I arched my feet a little more and I made the cut.

BOWERS HEALEY: Right. And any other physical requirements that they mentioned to you or that they put you through concerning physical requirements, like running or pull ups or sit ups.

STACK: I, I don't remember anything before going to basic training, but there was a lot of medical testing. I remember the women had to go for, you know, a kind of college, a color exam before we could go in the military and other health and medical tests. But physical tests, I don't remember.

BOWERS HEALEY: And when did you actually go to basic training?

STACK: I went the end of July in 1974 to South Carolina, which was very hot.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where did you go in South Carolina?

STACK: It was Fort Jackson.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: Outside of Columbia, South Carolina.

BOWERS HEALEY: And other than being very hot. What was your impression of Fort Jackson and of basic training?

STACK: In all seriousness, I had no trouble with it. I, I wouldn't say enjoyed everything, but I didn't have any trouble with it. Of course, you know, I was 21 at the time and wasn't fresh out of high school. And I noticed that the younger girls had more trouble, the ones that had probably just graduated high school and didn't really know what they were getting themselves into. But with my family background, I kind of knew what to expect, especially my brother Jim, you know, talked about the Marine Corps boot camp. And, you know, I honestly, I didn't have any trouble. I received actually a meritorious promotion on graduation day from basic.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And when you say trouble, what explain what sort of trouble some of the other women were experience that maybe maybe were younger or didn't have military background?

STACK: I think they weren't used to the harsh words that the drill sergeants used. And I think maybe the physical demands, they probably never had to do some of the stuff that, you know, sit ups, push ups, you know, the the chin ups or obstacle course. And I do know that well, we all struggled a little bit. I wasn't I wasn't necessarily used to that either, but some of them missed home. So that's what I was referring to.

BOWERS HEALEY: And I neglected to ask you, when you signed up, for what period of time did you sign up?

STACK: Oh, that was interesting, too, because I chose military police at the time. They had guaranteed enlistments and you could get a guarantee of the job you chose and location you chose. And I chose Germany. So my enlistment was for three years with a guarantee of going to the military police and going to Germany.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. How long was your basic training?

STACK: Eight weeks.

BOWERS HEALEY: And was there any time between basic and your advanced training in military police? Did you have leave or something?

STACK: I think we had a short leave.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: In between.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where was your military police training?

STACK: At the time, the M.P. school was at Fort Gordon, Georgia.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did anyone else from your basic class go on to MP training?

STACK: No.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And was your basic was that all women or was it integrated in 1974?

STACK: It was all women.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So as far as you know, you were the only woman out of that group that went to M.P. training.

STACK: Well, we had a very large company, so there could have been somebody else from my basic company that went that I wasn't familiar with.

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure. And when you got to M.P. training in 1974, were there any other women in your training course? There were. Okay.

STACK: Not as many men as there were men, but yes, there were women.

BOWERS HEALEY: Can you give me an idea of what the ratio was?

STACK: Oh, gosh, probably. Um, I think there are about ten of us in my M.P. class. And then, of course, there were probably 20 or 30 men at least.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. I was that you mentioned that that was on the list to be an MP, military policeman. Was that something new in the Army? Do you know?

STACK: I don't know the exact dates, but I think it had opened up in like 1973 for women.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And tell me more about your MP training. How long was it? What did you think about it when you learn?

STACK: That was also about eight weeks. It was since I wasn't really familiar with law enforcement at the time. To me, a lot of it was interesting. A lot, but there was a lot to learn. I had never handled weapons of any kind. My brothers hunted, but I did not. So I wasn't familiar with handguns or rifles, you know, Of course. In basic training, we learned how to use the M-16. But in peace school, they also added in the shotgun and pistols, of course. So that was new to me of the classes. There was a variety of classes and investigations, traffic and a number of classes like that. And, you know, investigating different crimes like the arson or murder or, you know, assault. And they would drill into the different terminologies to use. So overall, and it was a really interesting time for me. Then the very last week of school, they did something they called M.P. City, and it was a variety of stations where you were putting to use what you had already learned. So one would be a traffic building and one would be six soldier or one would be domestic, you know, so. And of course, you were that was like your testing at the end of MP school.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And how long was your MP school? Roughly.

STACK: It was about eight weeks.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. You mentioned that you did have access to the M-16 during basic. Did you actually qualify or was it familiarization with the M-16?

STACK: It was qualifying. All right. The M-16. And I, I think that was relatively new for women, too, because I think prior classes, um, well, women initially all went to Fort McClellan now, but Alabama. And I don't believe they did anything with M-16s there. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: And then likewise, as a follow on question, you're training with a shotgun and pistols. Was that familiarization or qualification?

STACK: Shotgun was familiarization and pistol and was definitely you had to qualify with your pistol or you weren't graduating.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. And did you find that you were at a disadvantage because you have not previously qualified or did you did you have any or was qualification on the M-16 and the pistol fairly easy for you?

STACK: Well, it did take some work, but I did well. So I was I was happy, I think, in the M-16. I think I was just marksman qualified and pistol. I don't remember for sure. But I did. I did well on both of them, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Following your training, where did you go from then? From from there. Did you have liberty or leave or did you go directly to Germany?

STACK: No, I had to leave. And I forget for how long. And then I. And it must have been close to 30 days because in peace, school graduation was the middle of November. And I had to report to Germany to the beginning of December.

BOWERS HEALEY: When you graduated from school, what was your rank at that time?

STACK: I was still a private E-2.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right, then. Go ahead and tell me about your first duty station. When did you. You said you arrived there in December of 1974.

STACK: Yes, right there at the beginning of December. And on the plane on the way over to Germany, I happened to sit next to as a specialist for. And so, of course, we talked throughout the flight. And he happened to mention, well, the one place you really don't want to go is Hannibal, because they have a really high crime rate. They have a drug problem, they have problem with riots and so on. And I said, oh, okay. Of course, knowing you don't get a choice, really, you go where the army sends you. So when I got to the replacement company and in Germany, I was there a couple of days and then they sent me to Frankfurt to the 709 Battalion.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where was the replacement company?

STACK: That was that Rhine main air base. Everybody. Everybody went there. It's 21st replacement. They might have been a battalion. I don't I don't remember exactly. But anyway, they sent me to Frankfurt and I was so relieved because I thought, thank goodness I'm not going, Hannah. So I was at the battalion headquarters for a day or two, and then they said, you know, we're going to send you to our Charlie Company in Hanover. And I just about fainted because of all the places in Germany. The only one I heard about was Hannah, and it was bad. So again, of course, you don't have a choice. So someone from Charlie Company came and picked me up and I arrived in in Hanno, and I was met by a girl already there, another female MP, and she said, Well, women don't stay in the barracks, so I'll take you home with me tonight. They had an had had an issue with the women MPs staying in a women's barracks, though, and some decision had been made that they had to live off post. So I went to live with this girl for for a short time. And then at some point they made arrangements for the women to go to various places, but they didn't end up in the barracks until 1977 or something.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was that just the case or.

STACK: Other just the.

BOWERS HEALEY: Same things?

STACK: Because the first women were had just arrived there in 1974 and the first woman there they put in the women's barracks. It was just a general women's barracks for all the women in the Hanover area. And they that she couldn't get any sleep because they would do things to her or, you know, take to steal her clothes out of the laundry and put it in the toilet and various things because nobody likes mpvs, let me just say. And so they moved her off post and then the rest of us that came during 1974 till like I say, probably about 77 or late 7677. Then they found a room at another barracks.

BOWERS HEALEY: So I take it the male and PS had their own barracks. Okay. Did the army find a place for you or did you get to choose a place off base.

STACK: You basically chose for yourself?

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And who paid for the base accommodations?

STACK: We got extra pay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: To make up for that and for meals. So I wasn't very happy about it, you know? But again, no choice.

BOWERS HEALEY: How did you get from where you lived off base to on base to get to work?

STACK: Initially, they would send a vehicle to pick you up and take you home. And then friends got cars and eventually I got a car. So that's how that worked.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. How far off base did you live?

STACK: I would say I was about five miles out.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, Hannah, where is that? In Germany. Is that north? South, east, west of. Well, we're talking about in West Germany.

STACK: Yes, It was about 20 miles or so southeast of Frankfurt.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. Describe your duties when you first get there. Your MP duties. Did you work? Shift work?

STACK: Yes. Okay. We all worked shift work. But again, that first woman that I met my first day called me in and she said, Don't let him know you can type or they're going to put you in the office or on the desk. So of course, I said I today. And anyway, the shift work was one week on a shift, be a day shift, second shift, third shift, and it rotated. So if you worked in a third shift this week, then the next time you worked it would be the day shift and so on. And then the week in between was for maintenance or training. So you got a couple of days off after your week of shift work and then the Monday you started the week of maintenance and training.

BOWERS HEALEY: When you work, did you work alone or did you work for the partner?

STACK: Oh, when I first got there, I always had a partner.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And they were mentioned here. My very first night was on third shift and there was a riot and they had to call the entire company out for the riot. And then I also saw my first fatality. And I thought to myself, What have I got myself into here? And it was a very busy first week and and I had to adapt. And I ended up really enjoying my time there.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Tell me a little bit more about Hannah, the base. What was the mission or the purpose of the base?

STACK: In Germany at the time. I don't know how it is now, but at the time they were. It wasn't just a base. There were several little posts. We call them, but they were called concerns and they were actually the buildings that the Germans vacated after World War Two. So the Americans just moved in to all of those posts, and each of the concerns had a different mission. Ours was pioneer concern. The general had a building there, personnel was there, finance was there, the police station was there, the JAG office commissary and some other. There was a chapel and a few other buildings. Another of the little concerns had engineers, combat engineers. There was also a US airbase that had helicopters, Cobra helicopters, and I don't know what else, and there was one that had maintenance one, you know. So I think there were seven or eight of those.

BOWERS HEALEY: Concerns and all of those seven or eight concerns, they were all under the umbrella of HANO. Yes. Okay. Um.

STACK: And so we patrolled. We we went to all of them. We also patrolled just out in the German city. I mean, we could we could basically go anywhere we wanted.

BOWERS HEALEY: Patrolled in the German city of Hanover if you.

STACK: Did, because there were bars and restaurants and other things where the guys went. So we could go anywhere GI went okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was HANO the base and all of these concerns? Was it fenced in or not?

STACK: They were. And there were guards at the entrances.

BOWERS HEALEY: Any idea why it had a reputation for being a place you don't want to go?

STACK: Hanna Well, there was a huge drug problem, a huge drug problem, and there was also some race issues. Okay. And there you know where I mean, during my time there, there were a number of murders.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you do you know, did you have many Vietnam veterans who were serving in Havana?

STACK: We did. We did. It had switched over and I don't remember again the year, but, you know, there had been draftees. And then it it switched to an all volunteer army. So there were a few soldiers left that had been drafted. And there were some that had been to Vietnam, even even our NCOs and officers, some of them had been to Vietnam.

BOWERS HEALEY: Now, you mentioned the first week that you were there and there was a riot. Was that on base or off?

STACK: It was it was on base and it was actually just a couple of buildings over from the MP station.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what was the basis for the riot?

STACK: Honestly, I don't remember that. But.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you said somebody died.

STACK: I know that. No, no. The fatality was a different part of the evening. There was a traffic fatality.

BOWERS HEALEY: And were you called to the traffic fatality?

STACK: Yes, I did. To investigate now. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Tell me more about the investigation and the writing up reports that you experienced when you were there in Germany.

STACK: Well, there were a number of different papers for one report. So there was your basic incident report. But then you got witness statements. If it was a traffic issue, you had to draw a diagram. If there was injuries of any kind, then there were uniforms that included for that. The incident reports themselves. They were pretty basic. You know, the all the people involved were on there. And then a narrative of what happened and if possible, photographs. I mean, not all the security camera, but if we did have a photographer, which we did on occasion and it was a fatality or something, that they would want the photos included. The biggest part was always interviewing witnesses, finding out who saw what happened and or were involved in the incident.

BOWERS HEALEY: Had school prepared you well or poorly or how for doing incidents, reports and doing the narratives.

STACK: I think they did a good job. Okay. But of course, every place has their own take on what reports and how you fill them out. You know what the I remember the station commander was very picky. And if you wrote a report and he didn't like it, he took out his bad pen and made corrections. So, you know, that said, I wasn't prepared for that part. But you did learn to get a lot of information, probably more information than you needed. But then you had it and everybody you had to make notes in your notebook. And I always carry a notebook and pens. So I think I think I was well prepared for most mostly for it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did any of your work as an MP lead to your being present or testifying as a witness for Article 15 or court martials?

STACK: Yes, I have. Article 32 hearing. I did have to testify.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And that was a fatality accident. Multiple fatalities.

BOWERS HEALEY: It was a motor vehicle or chemical.

STACK: Accident.

BOWERS HEALEY: On base or off post.

STACK: It was off post, but the soldier was drunk and hit a car with German civilians. And I know there were at least two that were killed.

BOWERS HEALEY: When you were patrolling off post in the German community. How was your interaction with the German populace?

STACK: Some like this and some did not. Um, you know, I think we were still kind of seen as the occupiers after World War Two. Um, I know it was the seventies, but some people would get a little. Some German civilians would get a little frustrated with us. But for the most part, it was okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: And even on your liberty time, what was the relationship with the German population and the people?

STACK: Pretty good. I went shopping. They have markets on Wednesdays and Saturdays and they'd go shopping. I didn't speak much German, or at least I knew German words for work. You know, accidents. Are you okay? Yeah. Let me see your I.D., those kind of things. But when I went shopping, I could get along. And, you know, if I wore civilian clothes, they didn't even always know I was in the army.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you learn German there, or did you have some German in your background before that?

STACK: No, I learned German there. My my family, my dad's side of the family was German. And they after or during World War Two, they decided they wouldn't speak any more German. So I never learned German.

BOWERS HEALEY: At home. All right. You have mentioned that the empty field was kind of newly opened to females in the early seventies. And you've also mentioned that you had different living accommodations because you were a female MP. Any other comments that you have concerning being a female in the military police field? In the seventies.

STACK: It wasn't easy. Uh, we were skirts in jeeps on duty trying to perhaps break up a fight or, you know, go through rough terrain chasing somebody. I mean, a number of us got scuffed up because we were a scourge that wasn't even like a wide legged. I mean, it was an alien skirt and nylons. And getting in and out of the jeep was not very ladylike. And like I say, if you were in any kind of scuffle with anybody, you weren't very ladylike there either. And it wasn't comfortable in the weather if it was cold. We had, you know, just stockings on our legs. We couldn't really wear long underwear or anything. So that part wasn't easy when I was in MP school. I qualified with a 38 caliber pistol when I arrived in Germany, and they said, We don't have any of those. You have to go outside with a 45 caliber pistol, okay. Which I did. But, you know, that was that was new to me. And a lot of a lot of the other male employees really didn't want women there. So basically, you had to prove yourself. You had to show that you were capable to handle anything. And we did have women that worked and that didn't help because if you had one that couldn't be relied on, then the next woman they worked with thought the same thing was going to happen. So, um, you know, there was it was a challenge.

BOWERS HEALEY: Describe the uniform that you wore other than it being a skirt. What did the uniform look like?

STACK: I do have a picture.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: Interested in the picture?

BOWERS HEALEY: Sure. Um.

STACK: It. It was a dress uniform.

BOWERS HEALEY: Let me see if I can zoom in on that. Go ahead and hold it up and up toward your face. Toward your neck. Okay.

Speaker 3 See.

BOWERS HEALEY: Actually, I put it right in front of you. Okay. All right. All right. Is that you? Yes. Okay. So that's you outside of a jeep? Yes. And it's a dress uniform. So is it green? Yes. Okay.

STACK: It's the green.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. All right. Got it. Go ahead. And what were the men wearing? Dress uniforms, also.

STACK: They were.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: So they had a green uniform also, but they had blast boots. So they had combat boots. And then their, um, the bottom of the pant was tucked into the boot or bust above the boot.

BOWERS HEALEY: And your footwear for women was what?

STACK: Little quarters, which I might add, were smooth on the bottom. So that didn't help if you were trying to chase somebody or, you know, whatever.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you mentioned getting sucked up to talk to me, described being scuffed up. What does that mean?

STACK: Well, if you were trying to apprehend somebody, put handcuffs on them and they were fighting with you when you were struggling, sometimes you ended up on the ground and you'd get your stockings ripped and knees scraped or whatever. I mean, I remember one of my friends in a different patrol car, they they called for assistance. And when we got there, my partner and I got there, there, uh, there sedan was running with the doors open, nobody around, and we had no idea what had happened to them. And a minute or two later, she came limping around the corner, holding her beret. Her hair was everywhere. Her knees were bloodied, her nylons were ripped. That was kind of typical if you got into a chase or a fight with somebody.

BOWERS HEALEY: And were you given any martial arts training?

STACK: Oh, yes. In that case, we did have that.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Describe what type of things you were taught.

STACK: We were taught to how to take somebody down to the ground, you know, flip them over your shoulder, that kind of thing. We were also taught a number of techniques with a nightstick called button, we call them, and they just add a number of those are outlawed nowadays. But and again, you could use it to help you get somebody down, not by hitting them with it, but the way you place the baton. And you know, that training served me well a number of times.

BOWERS HEALEY: So was there any ever any discussion about women being allowed to wear trousers as opposed to skirts?

STACK: Yes. But first they let us Now, I don't know if this was army wide or just for us in my battalion. But at one point, they led us by knee high black boots to wear. So at least you had some coverage on your legs. It didn't help with, you know, getting in and out of the vehicle very well. But at least your legs had some protection in inclement weather. And then I think it was 76 or 77, we did get pants and it was still oddly green and it was pants with the jacket. And then you wore a white blouse or beige blouse. They had both colors underneath. In the summer, you could take the jacket part off. And then I discovered that if you got wet, you could see through the blouse. I discovered that when I was doing an investigation. So I found that I had learned to adapt that too. But we were so grateful to get pants. It made life so much easier.

BOWERS HEALEY: And were you still in Germany when the plans came out? As far as the uniform? Yes. Well, you were in Germany when you first started. Did you have any mentors or someone who really kind of helped you with the training that you're going to recall?

STACK: Not specifically, but that first woman I mentioned to give me an about that admitting I could type and who took me home with her. She helped because she she was the very first woman to get there. And so she had learned everything the hard way and was was very helpful in that way. Later on, I did have a couple of mentors, but they weren't women, though.

BOWERS HEALEY: In Germany or Antioch.

STACK: All right. One was my platoon sergeant. And when was the first sergeant?

BOWERS HEALEY: And why were those two men particularly helpful to you?

STACK: Well, I think they were very welcoming to women. The NCOs, when they first got to Germany, they were part of that old crew that were in Vietnam veterans or draftees or whatever. And women were kind of forced on them. And so they, I felt, were very harsh. And the ones that came after were more willing to work with women. And they helped me immensely for a promotion.

BOWERS HEALEY: So then you mentioned in your intake request that you were promoted to Sergeant. And what was that while you were in Germany? It was okay.

STACK: Before that, though, I was I had a lateral promotion to Corporal, which there had been corporals for a while, but they didn't have enough NCOs.

BOWERS HEALEY: So. So you say lateral. Did you go directly from E2 to E4? No, no, no.

STACK: So when that happened, I was a specialist for so it was a lateral promotion because the corporal was still only an E4, but they had NCO capabilities. So I was the assistant squad leader and, you know, I could perform duties of the sergeant when they weren't around.

BOWERS HEALEY: So. And does your promotion come before others or not? Your lateral promotion?

STACK: No. There were about four or six of us maybe that were promoted, you know, had the lateral promotional ten corporal, because there were you know, you had several several squads. So one squad was working at the time, so you needed a corporal for each of those squads.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how were you chosen for the lateral promotion? If you know.

STACK: I think it was time and.

BOWERS HEALEY: Grade. Okay. All right. So am I reading this right? You got a promotion to Corporal before you expected to be promoted to Corporal? Yes. Okay.

STACK: Yes. And like I said, that was a lateral promotion, so I wasn't going up a rank. Just the. The rank had more powers than just a specialist for. So we could serve as an NCO.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see. Okay. And in the army and NCO, is it? What pay grade is it for A.

STACK: Well, if, if they. If they have corporals, it's E-4.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And I don't think my pay changed at all. I just had one more duty, so let's say that.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right.

STACK: And then sergeants are e fives, which are. That's the start of the NCO group.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And when did you become a sergeant?

STACK: Later that same year? December of 1977. But I re-enlisted before that. I think if I had not re-enlisted, I probably wouldn't have made Sergeant.

BOWERS HEALEY: What went through your you have a three year contract. So what went through your thought process about re-enlisting? Did you re-enlist to stay in Germany too, because you like that piece or why?

STACK: Well, it was a combination of factors. When I when I first got to L.A., you know, I was on a three letter, three year enlistment. And when I first checked in at Personnel and hang out, they said, well, you're extended three months. And I looked at them and I said, But I just got here. And they said, We're extending everyone three months. So I said, okay. So in my when it was time for me to re-enlist, I had gotten married. So I had a husband there in L.A. I did like the employees, and he wanted to stay in Germany. And I thought, Well, it's okay. I like it here, so that's fine. So that's what we did. I re-enlisted in November and I was promoted in December.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And was your husband an MP or not?

STACK: Yes, he was. He worked for a customs and Customs.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. What is the customs, Drew?

STACK: Well, it's similar to U.S. Customs where they check incoming and outgoing soldiers and baggage and they do investigations. At the time, there was black marketing in and out of the there was rationing in Germany. The soldiers, you got a ration card and you can only get a certain amount of cigarets, a certain amount of liquor, um, things like that. So Customs was involved with the black marketing issue.

BOWERS HEALEY: Investigating and black marketing for the soldiers. Black marketing to civilians or to each other, to the civilians.

STACK: For example, if you didn't smoke or you didn't drink, you still get the same ration that somebody did. So soldiers would like to sell their cigarets or their alcohol to German civilians for profit. Oh yes. And black marketing also included. Like there would be thefts from mass falls like meat and different things. You know, they somebody would steal it and then sell it elsewhere. So, I mean, he always had a lot to do. He was he was busy.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you mention that you testified in Article 32 regarding a traffic accident in which German civilians were killed? Were there any other times in which you testified as a result of something that you had investigated, either at a Article 15 or in a court martial? Oh.

STACK: I'm sure I did, but that's the one I specifically remember.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And did you have I asked you if you testified? You mentioned the judge advocates who were there. Did you ever have reason to be called in by a judge advocate and interviewed?

STACK: Oh, many times.

BOWERS HEALEY: Many times. Okay.

STACK: And we also have my last year in Germany. I may be getting off track, but I worked in investigations. And then you were in contact a lot with the JAG office. You know, if you wanted a search warrant or, you know, you were saying if you had enough evidence for something. So we we know most of the JAG officers.

BOWERS HEALEY: How did you find that experience? Working with JAG officers somewhere nice?

STACK: Some were not, you know.

BOWERS HEALEY: How much time did you actually spend in Germany?

STACK: All although it was five years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So the bulk of your service is actually in Germany?

STACK: Yes. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: I asked you about the relationship between you and the German society and did during the course of your duties, did you receive any training on the Status of Forces Agreement or have any training concerning if it happened, what to do? Did soldiers ever get held by the Germans and put in German prison as opposed to being transferred over back to the military?

STACK: Oh, yes. It depended on the crime. All right. But there were definitely soldiers that were imprisoned by the Germans. I don't know if they kept them or if they let them go or I shouldn't say let them go. But if in the end, they went to Leavenworth. But if it was a murder, for example, or a very serious crime.

BOWERS HEALEY: Hmm.

STACK: The Germans put them in there in their jail, you know.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you ever have occasion in which you were off post during your patrolling off post and you or someone that you were working with realized that a soldier may have committed a crime against a German civilian? Did you have any instructions as to what to do with that soldier? Did you bring him back on post or were you likely to turn them over to the German authorities?

STACK: Well, we had what we called German patrols, and that was one soldier and one German policeman. And they worked probably mostly weekends, but I don't remember exactly. And so it was a combined patrol and we would call them first if they weren't working. Then we just called the German police. There was a German interpreter that worked at that police station and he would call the German police and they meet us and, you know, sometimes it was we'd take the soldier and they'd handle the German, or if it was serious enough, they'd take the guy too.

BOWERS HEALEY: So was it their call? Was it the Germans? Did you get. Did the military give deference to the Germans to making the call as to who got jurisdiction?

STACK: There was probably some negotiating, if myself as an MP wasn't sure what to do. The call of duty officer and the duty officer would make a decision. You know, I think the German police didn't always want to handle the soldiers. You know it like I said, depending on the severity of the crime, you know, they but they were we had a good working relationship with the German police.

BOWERS HEALEY: Talk a little bit about liberty time in Germany. What did you do on liberty and how far did you go? What did you see and do? Did you stay on base or did you travel or what?

STACK: I did not travel as much as I would have liked in hindsight. I did go to the Netherlands for tulip time. I went to Heidelberg Castle. I went to some other small villages. But in those days, of course, you had to have a pass and employees were restricted from some place. For example, we couldn't go to Checkpoint.

BOWERS HEALEY: Charlie could not make us go to Checkpoint Charlie.

STACK: No, there were certain places we weren't allowed to.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So it wasn't just employees. It was all soldiers.

STACK: You know that. I'm not sure. Okay. But see, we had different clearances. The MP said different clearances, so I'm not sure if it had something to do with that.

BOWERS HEALEY: And explain what Checkpoint Charlie is.

STACK: Well, that was in Berlin by the Berlin Wall. That was the American sector was Checkpoint Charlie.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, so.

STACK: Um, well, I did also go to Frankenstein Castle in Darmstadt. That was interesting. But friends of mine went many, many places. They traveled much more than I did. They went to France or, you know, other countries. I just didn't do as much.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you had a vehicle which you just didn't do as much. Right. Okay.

STACK: Um, in others took the training places, too. I mean, I know guys that every time they had days off, they got a pass and jumped the train and went somewhere.

BOWERS HEALEY: They just didn't wear the passes. You said you had to have passes. Did they restrict how far you could go or where you could go?

STACK: Uh, well, it had to be approved. So if you asked for a pass, you had to be specific on where you were going. So if you said, like, when I went to the Netherlands, we got a, a pass, you know, to go, because, of course, we didn't have passports that in those days it was just our ID and the pass. So it had to be specific where you were going. And I think it was more the time, like, you know, the number of days that you were going to be gone.

BOWERS HEALEY: So basically, you're over there from the mid 1970s to the late 1970s. Talk about communication back then. How did you communicate with your family members as well as other soldiers that you may have known in other bases?

STACK: We mostly wrote letters. The old fashioned write a letter and, you know, you wait three weeks to get it back from home. They did have what was called a mars station. And you could it was on post and you could go there and make a call home. And of course, you had to pay. But when you called and you spoke to your mother, for example, you called and you had to say over in between. So my mom over and she had to say, hi, Luis over. And that's how the conversation went. And it was a limited time, you know, because there was always a line of other people wanting to call home, too. So. But I wrote letters and sent packages and my friends wrote letters and sent packages back. Just was a long time in between.

BOWERS HEALEY: And talk about and this is something you mentioned in your on your intake form also the type of friendships that you developed while you were in Germany. And time spent with friends and fellow soldiers.

STACK: Basically, we were like a family because we didn't have family there. And because you couldn't just pick up the phone and call your mom or call your friends back home. We just became a family. We spent holidays together. You know, we did other things together. And I'm still friends with those same people. And my I have a 40th wedding anniversary coming up next month. And one's coming from Maine tour coming.

Speaker 3 From.

STACK: Massachusetts. That's how close we are. We celebrate those times. You know, I've been to their places. And then we always have a reunion. And it's open to anybody who ever served in the battalion. So it doesn't have to just be the people I served with all.

BOWERS HEALEY: And these are just your MP. MP battalion.

STACK: Just the battalion.

BOWERS HEALEY: And again, your your battalion was which one?

STACK: Seven or nine.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you do those yearly or how often.

STACK: Well it was yearly until COVID and now there's been one and then two years and then one. And this will be a two year interim. We're having one in October.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where is that going to be?

STACK: Well, it changes location this year. It's Louisville, Kentucky. Okay. So no matter what company you were in, in the battalion or what you served. You know, we've had sort of passed on that. But we did have World War Two veterans that came for a while. Like I say, they passed on. But. And it's so funny because no matter if you knew the people or if you were there in a different time, the war stories are all similar and we just chuckle about that. But, you know, you could sit down at any table and talk to anybody, no matter if they were in Frankfurt, had no problem giessen wherever. And you just you know, it's like being there in the seventies again. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: You mentioned you get you received a lateral to call. I'm kind of going back here. You also mentioned that you received a promotion to Sergeant and you were the first female MP in the battalion to receive Sergeant.

STACK: That the battalion.

BOWERS HEALEY: Chief in.

STACK: The company.

BOWERS HEALEY: In the company of ten, The company. And how much time and grade did you have at that time? You were promoted to Sergeant in 77, you said. Yes. You joined in 74. So three years to Sergeant. Did your duties change as a result of you being made, Sergeant?

STACK: I had more responsibility.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: I was then a patrol supervisor, squad leader. I had to not only supervise when the soldiers were on patrol, I mean, I had a patrol unit by myself as well, and I could handle cases. But the majority of the incidents, the soldiers would investigate, and I would supervise either by being at the actual incident or reviewing their paperwork. I also had to write progress reports. I think that's what they were called. Had to do some training.

BOWERS HEALEY: By 1977, did you let on that you could type or not?

STACK: Yes, I did. So but that also meant that I could fill in is the desk sergeant.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. And I guess I should ask, were there many men at that time that could type or you don't know?

STACK: Well, I don't really know. But there was always a desk sergeant and a desk clerk on duty, and but they each had a typewriter. So the desk clerk, uh, one of them did the bladder and no, I can't remember. The bladder was every call. So, you know, if the phone rang, you know, 1145 this call came in and they would write down what the call was. And then then it was the radio calls, too. So they both had a typewriter. I'm not sure which one did which part. Um, but there was a typewritten transcript of everything, every call, you know, and the assignments and everything. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: Any further comments concerning your time in Germany or something that you would like to mention, or maybe a picture that you want to show?

STACK: Oh, I do have a picture receiving my sergeant stripes and both my mentors are in there. Um.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. If you want to hold it up right in front of your face and I'll see if I can zoom in there. Okay. Looks like I kind of got it. All right. And that, again, was 1977.

STACK: December 1977.

BOWERS HEALEY: And which ones are your mentors or Somebody looks like it. Pinning you on. Who is that?

STACK: That is Tommy Strickland. That was his given name. And he was the first sergeant at that time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And my platoon sergeant is also in the photo and the lieutenant is in the photo. Um, and Tommy Strickland, after I was sent to Fort Bragg, he happened to be there, and he was the command sergeant major. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: And I noticed you're wearing trousers in this picture, are you? Ah, What kind of uniform were you wearing? Right there?

STACK: That's the fighting.

BOWERS HEALEY: Uniform. Okay.

STACK: So, um, that was the uniform you wore on the week in between shift work.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And I think this is just my comment. Seems that that would have been more practical to wear while you were on duty. But yes.

STACK: They did. For a while. We did wear the fatigue uniform, but we worked in a jeep. That was later on. That wasn't in the beginning, but later on they said, if you worked in a jeep on midnight shift, you could wear the fatigue uniform. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: So. All right. Um, so do you have anything else you want to show at this time? Uh, if not now, we can do it later. But.

STACK: Uh, well, this is a little article, and I'm sorry to say I don't remember which newspaper it was in. It was Stars and Stripes or, uh. A different Armed Forces newsletter, whatever. But it had a little article about when they made the promotion.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Can you raise that little bit higher? All right. All right. All right. I appreciate that. I got the the the big lettering certainly captured.

STACK: In this one. And maybe we could do later on that 76th anniversary. All right.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And then before we started zooming in on some of the documents that you had issues, are there any other comments concerning your duty in Germany that you would like to move before we make before we move on?

STACK: Well, one was ever sent to school. Military police investigations. I graduated second in the class and I got a trophy with the mail soldier out.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And then where was my school?

STACK: At the time, it was in jail. SEC, Germany.

BOWERS HEALEY: Can you spell that for me, please?

STACK: B i l. S. E. C. K.

BOWERS HEALEY: Has VLF like Anne Frank? No.

STACK: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: EV. Sam. Okay. Yeah.

STACK: That's easy.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Okay.

STACK: Thank you. There might be a letter, some somewhere, but I don't remember.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Um, how long was that school?

STACK: That was six weeks, I believe. And then my last year in Germany, I did work in investigations. So I wore plainclothes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Plainclothes? Meaning? Not uniform. That uniform. And what was the purpose behind wearing plainclothes?

STACK: Well, you could go places where a uniformed soldier couldn't. You were undercover, basically.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. What types of things did you investigate generally?

STACK: Uh, assaults, uh, burglaries.

BOWERS HEALEY: Um, was it mainly off post or not?

STACK: No, it could be anywhere.

BOWERS HEALEY: How could it be anywhere?

STACK: Uh, burglaries, thefts, those kind of things. And it dependent on the monetary value, though, because criminal investigations was the next level up. And so I don't remember what the cut off was, but if it was less than a certain amount, we did it. If it was, you know, a huge amount. Investigate criminal investigations, did it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Now, I understand that you, in plain clothes, being a female and having different hair restrictions, people might not know that you were a soldier, but if a male was doing the same thing, given the haircut and shaving requirements.

STACK: That was waived, they could have longer hair.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. Yeah. Thank you.

STACK: I do remember going to an incident and I don't remember exactly what the incident was, but I remember very specifically somebody saying, well, how come you got to bring your girlfriend along? It's just like, wait, no, I belong here. And I also went to a, um. Well, it was a suicide, as it turned out. And, uh, they wouldn't let me in because they didn't believe I was an investigator.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did you have a badge or something? Just. Okay.

STACK: And credentials. Just like. Like you see on TV where they flip out their credentials. Right. Yeah. Okay. But again, always having to prove myself that I belong there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you find it interesting being an investigator? Was that something you wanted to do?

STACK: I did. But to be honest with you, I didn't like it as much as I did Being a patrol supervisor. I found that more rewarding because I was really helping the younger soldiers, you know, with their investigations and showing them how to do things. So I enjoyed that more.

BOWERS HEALEY: Right. Anything else about Germany?

STACK: Oh, I think that about covers Germany.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And so you went.

STACK: Sorry, I didn't. I didn't want to mention one specific incident that was very traumatizing, let me say. And I will never forget, there was an accident with a van that had dependents, two women and five children.

BOWERS HEALEY: And they all died. They all died.

STACK: That were burned to death in their vehicle. And we couldn't get them out. It made me so sad, and I always remember it.

BOWERS HEALEY: I can certainly understand that. I'm. So from Germany, you were transferred to Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

STACK: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how much time did you have left on your was your next enlistment for three years or how long? Yes. Okay.

STACK: So I have a year left and a year left when I got to Fort Bragg.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And tell me what unit you were assigned to and what your job was at Fort Bragg.

STACK: It was the 65th M.P. Company. And when I got there, they said they did not have a position for me so I could be the re-enlistment NCO. And I wasn't really wild about that. I did it, but it was not my favorite job.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you didn't work as an MP at all? No.

STACK: Well, I take that back. We were deployed a couple of times for the Cuban refugee issue in 1980. We were sent to Miami for three months.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: No, I'm sorry. One month. And then we were sent to Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, for three months.

BOWERS HEALEY: What did you do in each of those places? Start with Miami first.

STACK: Well, there I did act as an MP, but as the our role was, um, we were stationed at the Orange Bowl stadium, which is where they would housed some of the Cuban refugees. And so we worked all the checkpoints and basically we were counting how many came in and then how many went out and general Security. Then at Indiantown Gap, that was more of a detention facility because there were a number of criminals that came in the boatlift. So these were all like unaccompanied males of. Like suspicious backgrounds or criminal backgrounds. And so it was a retention facility. So that was more or less just guarding. The facility. But I also had to do the re-enlistment NCO business during that time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Ah, well, you were located in Miami and and also in Indian Town. You were so re-enlistment. Yeah. Okay.

STACK: I, I mostly did the re-enlistment at Indiantown Gap, and I, and I actually re-enlisted at least one one soldier while I was there. So, like I say, not my favorite job, though, because nobody likes the re-enlistment officer, because they have to come and talk to you and tell you why they aren't re-enlisting or asking for something special. I say like, can I go to Hawaii? Cause they know that they don't like you. What's up?

BOWERS HEALEY: All right, so what else can you tell me about your Fort Bragg experience.

STACK: At Fort Bragg? No one walks anywhere. They run. So every morning you started out with a four mile run and petty.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where were you stationed with the airport? Well.

STACK: It was an airborne base. Yes. And I was actually a member of the 18th Airborne Corps, but I was not airborne. And that caused all kinds of issues because, you know, the airborne wear wings. And many times I'd go to the base or somewhere, and some NCO or officer would stop me and say, Where's your wings? And I'm like, No, I'm not airborne. Well, you've got the airborne patch. And I said, But that's the unit I'm in. So I was took some explaining.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Four mile run. Now, I asked you probably at the beginning of this interview about physical requirements, physical fitness requirements, and you said, well, there really weren't many. So we go from 1974 to the late seventies and you're doing a four mile run. How did that impact you, if at all?

STACK: Well, when you asked the earlier question, I thought it was just before I went in.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah. And it was yeah, okay.

STACK: But throughout my military career, there were always physical fitness requirements. There was always a test and.

BOWERS HEALEY: You know, and what was the test for women soldiers? And while you were in Germany.

STACK: It was no different than the men, I think. Okay. I think maybe we could do less pull ups or something. I don't remember. But, you know, we had to run that job. We had running. We had push ups, sit ups. We might I my memory fails me, but we might have not had to do the pull ups. But yeah, it always involved the yearly P.T. test just at Fort Bragg. It was more intense. And to this day, Fort Bragg deploys a lot. So they're ever ready.

BOWERS HEALEY: Talking about deployment at Fort Bragg was part of your training at Fort Bragg? Did you have to have drills, readiness drills as part of your training? And I don't know if you did. I get called late at night. Say, okay, this is a readiness drill.

STACK: Well, they didn't call them that, but we also had that in Germany. They were of the alert.

BOWERS HEALEY: Alerts.

STACK: And that could be the middle of the night. And you had to you dressed in your your fatigues and carried your t 50, which was a duffel bag with, you know, your shelter half and sleeping bag and all of that in it. And I remember one specific time in Germany when I was the change of quarters, you know, overnight CQ and four in the morning battalion commander shows up and said, good morning. And he called he called an alert. And I had to you know, there were a lot of notifications to make and I have had to open up the arms room and issue all the M-16s. So no matter where I was, they always had alerts. You know, and in in Germany, we also had at the time terrorist groups, uh, the Baader Meinhof Gang and and others. And, you know, if they were very active, we'd. They'd call an alert. You know, I remember a time working my eight hour shift as a patrol soldier and getting off shift, putting on fatigues and a flak jacket and spending another 8 hours on alert. So, I mean, that was an always thing.

BOWERS HEALEY: You know.

STACK: No matter.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where you mentioned a particular terrorist group in Germany. Can you spell that.

STACK: Bad air dash?

BOWERS HEALEY: Meinh0f and generally not a terrorist group. Terror against water. For what Or what type of people were in power? Part of that terrorist group.

STACK: It was political, mostly, and they like to blow things up. I think they got the they get the officers club at rhine mine and, you know, I, I don't know. They should know, but I don't remember what their their thing was, what they were against. I don't remember that. Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: Your off duty time in Fort Bragg. Maybe you should describe Fort Bragg a little bit more. What kind of a base it was. It's got the 82nd Airborne. You didn't do any M.P. work there at all? Bragg. No, I didn't. No. So no patrolling of the base.

STACK: I did go for ride alongs a couple of times because I missed being on, you know, rode and. Okay. So I didn't go with the duty officer.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what can you say about the ride alongs on the base?

STACK: Well, it was a very large post hub. Housing area was on the base. You know, we they took turns, as I remember, for a certain amount of time. 82nd Airborne had the M.P. station and they patrolled. And then after that amount of time, then the other units like our unit, had the empty station. And it was a very large base. And, you know, just like any military base there where there were problems, there were domestics, there were, you know, thefts, there were fights, you know, assaults, rapes, whatever, that variety of things. Just like a big city drug issue. Oh, yes. I always, always.

BOWERS HEALEY: I didn't ask you about this, but in Germany, you mentioned there were drug problems back in the 1970s. How did the Army discover a drug problem? Were you discovering actual drugs there or soldiers who were who seemed to be on drugs? How did how did you kind of ferret out the drug problem?

STACK: It's all of the above. I mean, you could you could obviously tell when somebody was on drugs, they had a whole different demeanor, you know, and there were a number of deaths. The big one I remember initially was a drug called Mandrax, and I think it was in the Quaalude family. But I again, I'm not sure. Heroin was big. We'd have heroin deaths. Back then, we could do stop and frisk. So if it was a soldier and he was anywhere in uniform or not, you know, saves downtown coming out of a bar, it could stop it. Stop and frisk, as we called it. I'd check, you know, they had to show their I.D. if they didn't have one, then they were in trouble for not having their I.D. But, you know, we could fresco.

BOWERS HEALEY: Can do this job and frisk without any probable cause or suspicion just.

STACK: Because they were soldiers.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Back to Fort Bragg. They're not in Europe anymore. You're in the middle of trying to be in the middle of North Carolina. What was your liberty like and did you live on base or outpost?

STACK: Lived off post.

BOWERS HEALEY: Again. Okay.

STACK: And I lived in an apartment complex that was really almost all military people. So they had a swimming pool. And, you know, I got to meet some of the people there and, you know, there'd be parties on the weekend or whatever. I guess they didn't do a whole lot. You know, again, in hindsight, I wish I wish I would have been more inquisitive and instead. Well, let me go here for the weekend. I mean, you know, go check this out. But they did it. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Why did you decide to leave the army? I take it you spent one year or less how much time you spent at Fort Bragg?

STACK: Close to a.

BOWERS HEALEY: Year. Okay. And obviously you decided to leave the military. What was your why?

STACK: Well, I would have had to re-enlist. But at that time, I had marital issues and we were getting a divorce. And I had to think long and hard. Do I want to stay in the military or do I want to go home and do something else? And in the end, and Tommy Strickland, who was the command sergeant major, tried really hard to get me to stay in, and he even offered me duty at the Pentagon. In hindsight, I wish I would have said yes. But in the end, I decided to go.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And did you have anything in particular when your enlistment ran out? Did you have anything particular planned or thought about what you would be doing as you transitioned into the civilian world?

STACK: In all honesty, I really hoped to be a police officer back home. Into a series of bad luck or whatever you want to call it. I didn't get what I wanted.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And what were some of the impediments that you came across when you you returned to Milwaukee? Yes. Okay. And I don't know if you actually applied at some police station in Milwaukee, the police or some of the suburbs around Milwaukee. Did you do those applications?

STACK: I filled out three applications.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: I failed the oral interview for this highway patrol, state patrol. They don't tell you specifically why, but I failed that. And the other two. One. They had no women in the department. And then they changed the testing data on me and I couldn't make the second date, so I had to let that one go. And then I forget what the issue was with Milwaukee. And they did have women, so I'm sure I would have been able to get it, But something else interfered and I didn't get it. But a very nice gentleman at the Veterans Service office, uh, helps me get a job as a security officer at Children's Hospital.

BOWERS HEALEY: So how long were you back? Did you live on your own? Did you live with your parents? How did you resettle back into the Milwaukee area where you were waiting to get a job?

STACK: I came back and was living with my mother. All right.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how long did it take you to get a job? This is 1980. Okay.

STACK: I got a job in February.

BOWERS HEALEY: And when were you discharged?

STACK: The end of November, 1980. So in February 81, I got a job.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you mentioned before we started this interview that you were part of the reserves for a while. Tell me about that.

STACK: Well, when I was getting ready to leave Fort Bragg, I got about guaranteed re-enlistment for the Reserves in Milwaukee because I thought I'm going to need some kind of income initially. And I thought, well, I'll try the reserves. But they couldn't. They had no military police in the 84th Division. So they said, well, the closest we can get to is a legal clerk. And I agreed and came back, and I honestly didn't like it at all. They even sent me to the school for legal clerks at Fort Benjamin Harrison, Indiana. And I came back and I still really had nothing to do. It was two JAG officers and me, and nothing happened while I was there.

BOWERS HEALEY: So was this weekend a drill or what?

STACK: Yeah, I did help out in the office for a while before I went to the legal clerk school. But I really like I say, I really didn't like it. It wasn't enough for me. So I lasted about a year and a half. And then I said, No, I got it. I mean, I didn't have to re-enlist or have any commitment because I'd already served six years in active duty, so I didn't have to do any more than that.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. You mentioned you got you were hired for employment as a security officer at the Children's hospital. Yes. How long did you stay in that job?

STACK: I stayed there for just about 14 years. And then I went to and that was full time. And I had become a supervisor there. And, uh, I wanted to go part time. So I went to St Mary's for a couple of years as a security officer. I took, you know, a demotion, basically less pay and less duties, but that was fine.

BOWERS HEALEY: So since you're leaving the service, active duty service, and also your short stint as in the Reserves, did shake, were you able to or did you try to take any advantage of any veterans benefits?

STACK: I did go to school and to I got a two year degree in business administration, and that was with the GI Bill.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And how about hospital or medical services?

STACK: That was interesting. I did have a medical issue on my exit medical when I left Fort Bragg. There was an issue and they said, you can follow up with the VA.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And I did try. But, for example, I got there one day and they said, oh, we're going to have to do an x ray. I said, Fine. They told me to put on a gown and then come out to this waiting room. So I'm in a gown, in a waiting room with like 75 men. Very uncomfortable. They didn't have a women women's clinic back then. I had my job at Children's Hospital, which was second shift. I sat there at the VA for hours and hours and they didn't call me. Finally I said, Look, I got to go. I got to go to work. I tried a couple more times and they they had you just sitting there for hours and getting nowhere. So finally, you know, because I had a job and I had medical insurance by that point. Then I said, I'm done. And I just started using my medical benefits to do my job. But now I understand they have a women's clinic, and embarrassing episodes like that will not happen anymore.

BOWERS HEALEY: So that's what you've heard. Have you been back to the VA for any medical services? No. No. Okay. And what other contact with any have you had with veterans over the last 40 years or so since you've been discharged from active duty?

STACK: Well, I belonged to the American Legion for a number of years. I also volunteered at the Veterans Home in Union Grove. I belonged to my 79th MP Battalion Association. And you know, with the American Legion, we would do parades and different activities through there. So, I mean, it had quite a bit of contact with veterans.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you said you volunteered at Union Grove. Explain a little bit about what Union Grove is and why you got involved in Union at Union Grove.

STACK: Well, it is a Wisconsin veterans home.

Unidentified And they have.

STACK: You know, assisted living, skilled nursing. When I started there, they had sort of independent living as well. That changed after a few years. But, um, I when I signed up to volunteer, they would do all sorts of activities and I would help like take them go with the busload to an event. Um, you know, and, uh, it ended out that I did arts and crafts with them, and I enjoyed that part.

BOWERS HEALEY: And I think before we went on started this interview, you mentioned that your mother, who was a veteran, was also a union girl for some time. Yes. Had you already started volunteering at Union Grove before your mother was there?

STACK: Oh, yes. I had been there quite a few years. And then when mom really needed assistance, I tried some places closer to Milwaukee and none of them were a good fit. So I was able to get her into the skilled nursing facility at Union Grove. And when I first got her in there, she was on hospice and wasn't doing well. Well, guess what? She improved vastly and she lived another four years. So that's something to be said for the care at the time. Great. Great.

BOWERS HEALEY: Um. We've talked kind of chronologically about your military service, but something I haven't asked you. When you look back, how did your military experience shape your view of the world or enhance or detract from your civilian experience? Did you would you say favorable or unfavorable that you were on active duty in the military?

STACK: I'd say favorable. I am one of the things that and maybe I was born this way, but I don't think so. But I'm a very organized person and I attribute that to the military. You know, I'm never.

BOWERS HEALEY: Late and.

STACK: I come prepared, you know, and like I say, very organized. And I'm not brave enough saying that that's a result of being in the military, I feel. And I've learned to be very cautious. You know, I and I can read people better. I think from my experiences. So I felt it was a good choice for me at the time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Um, so I just lost my thoughts. So just give me a moment here. I was going to ask you, when did you become involved in the American Legion? They were discharged in the 19 1980, I believe. Did you immediately become involved in American Legion or not?

STACK: Actually, not. Nobody really ever approached me about that. I joined in 2001 after 911. Then I thought, Oh, maybe I should do something more.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And as I said, nobody really approached me. I got some mail solicitation, but then I investigated on my own and I chose a post and I went to one meeting. And after the meeting. No, I'm sorry. They had introductions and things. And then when the meeting was going to start, they said the women have to go in the other room and with the ancillary. And I happened to have my husband with me because he was thinking of joining a post as well. And he said, Well, wait a minute, my wife's a virgin. And they said, It doesn't matter. The women go in the other room. But guess what? I didn't join that post. And then I found out later, a short time later, there was an old women's post. And so I did join that post. And of course, even the Vietnam era. I'm not eligible for the VFW. So that was out of the question.

BOWERS HEALEY: And her husband's also a veteran. Yes. Okay. What's the number of the all woman's post in Milwaukee?

STACK: It's four, four, eight. I'm not sure how active they are at the moment.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. It's interesting that you were offered the auxiliary, but not now. The American Legion itself. How'd you find out about the oral history program offered by the Wisconsin Veterans Museum?

STACK: Another friend from the Post talked about the I'm Not Invisible program. And so I went, uh, she was in, I don't know, the first group or second group or whatever. And she told me about the one they did last summer at UW Gym. So I went for that, and that's how I got hooked up with this.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, great. Anything else you want to talk about concerning your military experience that we may not have covered?

STACK: Well, two little things. One, when I first went to join the Army and went to basic, it was still the Women's Army Corps. And in fact, even when I got to Germany, I still wore the Women's Army Corps insignia. As well as military police. So where the men more us. We wore the palace. The thing.

BOWERS HEALEY: You wore.

STACK: White palace Athena insignia. And the men wore U.S..

BOWERS HEALEY: Explain what the palace Athena is.

STACK: But that's the symbol of the women's. I recall that the name was the the Greek female warrior. And so they were disbanded, I think, uh, 77 somewhere there. So I remember one day the first sergeant came out and said to wear the wrong brass. This is blood. And he handed me a U.S. brass. So that's how I knew that.

BOWERS HEALEY: How did you feel about that?

STACK: Well, I liked being in the Women's Army Corps, but there were advantages to being integrated into, you know, the rest of the Army, like, you know, with the men. So it was okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

STACK: And I just also wanted to mention a little tidbit in basic training. We had a makeup class how to put on makeup. And I can't recall which company gave us each a bag of makeup. It was Maybelline or Revlon or somebody. But yes, we went to makeup class and got a bag of makeup. I'm pretty sure they don't do that anymore.

BOWERS HEALEY: Interesting. Okay. And I noticed you are wearing a shirt today with. Well, tell me what your shirt says.

STACK: It's commemorating the 76th anniversary of the M.P. Corps. Okay. Was founded in April of 1942.

BOWERS HEALEY: Right. And where did you get that?

STACK: Well, I actually got this from the Empire Museum. And I had been invited to Germany for the 75th anniversary. And I, myself and two other gentlemen from our association were guests of the 79th.

BOWERS HEALEY: And, you know, I just want your voice to come up.

STACK: Okay. So we were guests of the 79th M.P. Battalion, which is still active. And they had a lovely 75th anniversary celebration. And then the following year was the 76th anniversary. And the shirt that I'm wearing, I got at the M.P. Museum and was surprised to see my picture on the back.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. Now, you had mentioned that if you'd like to stand up and tell me where your picture is on the back, had you brought it before you. Before I realized.

STACK: It, and I'm at the bottom of the 70.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right, let me get that. Okay. That's you. And what type of uniform were you wearing back then? You've got a white blouse on, and you can go ahead and sit down.

STACK: That was the green, oddly green dress uniform with the pants. And I was the squad leader in the picture. And so the the gentleman be behind me are, you know, there's a couple of them, but you can only see one. Well, they were part of my squad.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And that showed up on this shirt without them asking you.

STACK: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: It's part of their archive, I take it. Yes. Okay.

STACK: I mean, I felt honored. I just surprised.

BOWERS HEALEY: Well, that's quite something. All right. Anything else you want to show? You've got something with a seven and a six there.

STACK: That's the same picture on the back of my shirt. It's just a paper copy.

BOWERS HEALEY: Got it. Okay. Thank you. All right. Well, I'm going to ask one more time. We've talked about a lot of your career and the things that you've done after your career. Anything else you want to add about you after your post-military service? Things that you might have done or family or anything along that line? You don't have to it. Or is there anything else you want to add to this interview?

STACK: No, I guess I don't have much to say, just that I do appreciate the friendships that have lasted all these years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Yeah. You certainly have kept very well in contact for somebody who grew up in the day and age of letter writing and not emails and Facebook. So that's great. It's super that you've got friends from way back then.

STACK: Well, one guy is a professor at Fresno State University, and he was a desk clerk in L.A. and he still likes writing letters. So we write letters back just like the old days.

BOWERS HEALEY: That's great. That's great. All right. Well, I do want to thank you, Luis, on behalf of the Wisconsin Veterans Museum for doing this oral history. And also thank you for your service to the country. So that will conclude this interview.

STACK: Thank you.

[Interview Ends]