Oral History Interview with Debra A. Wenzel

[Interview Begins]

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Today is July 13th, 2023. And this is an interview with Deborah Wenzel, who served in the United States Army from 1983 to 1997. This interview is being conducted by Ellen Healy in Menasha, Wisconsin, at the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else is present for the interview. All right, Deborah, if you would, please state your full name, including your middle name and your maiden name.

WENZEL: Deborah Ann Wenzel. Maiden name? Crawford.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Thank you. And tell me a little bit about your background. Where were you raised and by whom? And did you have siblings?

WENZEL: I was raised in Appleton, Wisconsin, over by Huntley School. And I had three siblings. Cindy was the eldest. Then came Terri, then myself, and then my younger sister, Sandy.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And your mom and dad? What did they do?

WENZEL: My father, when I was really little, was an insurance salesman. I believe it was State Farm or Allstate. And then he got into selling cars, which was difficult back then because it was 100% commission and you didn't get an hourly wage and commission. It was just commission. My mother, I believe it was when my youngest sister started kindergarten, started working at a. Buyer called Mr. Roberts on Richmond Street, and she worked there until long after I graduated high school, going from waitress to manager.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And where did you go to high school?

WENZEL: I went to high school at Appleton East. I graduated in 1982.

BOWERS HEALEY: And does your family have any history of military service?

WENZEL: Yes and no. Not a lot. Direct bloodline history. But my great uncle, Frank Gilbert Francis Calvert, was in World War Two, and I had an Uncle Joe construction stock who did 2 or 3 tours in Nam. And he was a lifer in the military. And all three of his sons went to. Military institute. I can't remember the name of it right now.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: And that's.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Yeah. So did you talk to your relatives about military service?

WENZEL: We have what I always call the gypsy blood in our family. I grew up with no relatives nearby other than my sisters and my parents. The next closest was down in Milwaukee. I had an Aunt Phyllis, and she lived in Colorado with her two kids. My Uncle Joe, as I said, they he was lifers. So he did. Germany, Pentagon, Vienna, Germany, Vietnam, Pentagon. And then forward to that. I know of. But yeah, no, other than my great Uncle Frank, there is no direct bloodline. I mean, even my aunt Phyllis was a guest worker. And actually the man she married, Mr. Brooks, was her second husband. Rumor is he was one of the first blue angels. I haven't verified that yet, but I have been looking into it. But yeah, so he was. And he was a lifer. He retired out of the military so directly. No. But the influence was always there. And I grew up with three police officers in our neighborhood. So just that that community service atmosphere was active in my life, not in the immediate family, but the extended blood family. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: And prior to enlisting in the service, did you have any jobs?

WENZEL: Oh, yeah. I worked at Tom's Drive-In. I worked at the bar with my mom at Mr. Roberts. There is one other job. I can't think of what it was, though.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you do that in high school or after high school?

WENZEL: I did Tom's drive in during high school, Mr. Roberts. I started working there in fourth grade, but it was just filling coolers and little things to help my mom get the bar ready before it opened. I didn't get paid for it. I just did it. And then once I turned 18, which was the legal drinking age at the time, I started working with my mom as a waitress. Yeah. Yeah. Here's another job in there. I can't think of what it is, but anyhow.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you graduated in 1982? Yes. What caused you to join the military?

WENZEL: I went to college for one year. That was. That was. That was what then was called. UW Fox Valley. Now it's UW Oshkosh Fox Valley Extension. I went there for a year, liked it, want it to go to college on campus. We were a high end of the low income family growing up, so we didn't have the money for it. And somebody suggested that I look into the military and I went in and took the Asvab and signed up like almost all in the same day. Boom, boom, boom.

BOWERS HEALEY: Then one was that. That would have.

WENZEL: Been the 83. What year did it say that I enlisted?

BOWERS HEALEY: 1983. Awesome.

WENZEL: Yeah. So it was 1983 then. So. Yes. And I joined the reserve because I'm a person that wades in. I don't jump in. And that was my. Well, let's see if I like it, because if it's, you know, it's just the reserves and I, you know, not that too bad. And I actually talked to my friend Pat Smith, Patti Smith, into enlisting so I could get that wonderful little extra bit of money for bringing in a friend. And she went full bore. She went active duty right away. Did most of her time down in Panama and ended up getting medically discharged. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: So when you signed up for the reserves and you described that in an interesting way, you wanted to wade in. Oh, yeah. Sean Penn. So that's interesting. I'm so waiting in. What was your obligation?

WENZEL: I believe I did the four year obligation with split training, so I was able to do my basic training one year, and then I had to finish my 80 within 12 months after that.

BOWERS HEALEY: And it stands for what?

WENZEL: Advanced Individual training.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And do you recall when you did your basic training?

WENZEL: I know I came home right before Christmas in 1983. And my I t I came home right before Christmas in 1984.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. So in 1983, between your basic and I t what did you do anything for the army or were you just completely inactive reserve status?

WENZEL: No, I had to do my reserve weekends. Once once you sign the contract, they assign you to a company and you start drilling right away. So even before I left for basic training, I had done 1 or 2 drills with 1394, a civil affairs company out of Green Bay. Then I went to basic training for two in South Carolina.

BOWERS HEALEY: And then. Tell me a little bit about basic training. I'm going to back off. Guess. How much time did you spend at basic training and where?

WENZEL: I think it was eight weeks. It was eight weeks training at Fort Jackson. And I loved it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Why?

WENZEL: Because it was such a melting pot. There are so many different types of people that were all there for so many different reasons and so many different personalities. There was one platoon to put in that platoon sergeant, squad leader that we had. I wish I could remember her name. I could go look it up and mope because I still have my yearbook thing that they give you at the end. She was the biggest influence on me. She was in think she was just under 25 and she joined to be able to take care of her children. She had anything too, at the time. But she was so mature and and wise and caring for her age. And she yeah, you know, you have people in your life that touch you. She touched me big time. So that was nice. She was always there to help, no matter who they were, what they were there for. You know, she could have argued with somebody at trial for breakfast, and by lunchtime she would be the first one there to help them. At the same time, she was beautiful heart, beautiful person.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you find any part of basic training challenging or easy, or how would you describe it?

WENZEL: Um. The only thing I really, really didn't like was the. At one point we had to do it was a 3 or 4 day bivouac. And where they literally I mean, they're already attempting to sleep deprive you during basic training to help with that mental breakdown. But in the bivouac, it was even more so. You were getting two, maybe four hours of sleep for that many days. And the day we got back from bivouac, we had a physical fitness test. I was like, You guys are playing with us. You're doing this on purpose. Is it a nice idea? Expect us to pass. We're like dead tired and we barely lift a pencil. And that, to me, was the hardest. The rest of it was I wouldn't say easy, but it was very, very doable. And there was a lot of support from the other people that we were there with. You know, one of the girls that was one of my bunk mates was from Jamaica. She was white from Jamaica, which I was just kind of thrown by that at my young age. I did not realize a lot of things. What was her name? John. I think it was John. No, that was a Or is it? No, it was Gwen. It was Jody. She was just awesome. She introduced me to Bob. Bob Marley, who had never heard of before. I fell in love with him. It was there was a lot of bonding that went on, and it was one of the things that made me want to go active duty because I really loved having so many people while we all came for different reasons. Almost, almost all of us had that serve the community mindset. And so it was nice because I had when my senior year, I wanted to join the Peace Corps. That was my thing. But I knew that my family would absolutely laugh at me and it would not go over well.

BOWERS HEALEY: So what does your family think about you joining the military? The reserves?

WENZEL: My dad was very proud. My dad was very proud. My mother knew that she would be losing control and therefore wasn't as appreciative of the fact that I was going to go and learn how to basically be on my own.

BOWERS HEALEY: So I take it during college you were living at home.

WENZEL: For the first year when I was at UW Fox, I was living at home when I but then when I got back from it, I went down to UW Whitewater and did a semester down there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. In 1983, when you went into the Army Reserves and you were at basic, was it basic with all women or was it men and women training together?

WENZEL: It was all women in the barracks 90% of the time. It was all women while we were training. There are a couple times that we did some things at the same time as the men, but it was still the women were on that side of the room. The men were in the side of the room. The women were on that side of the range. The women were on this side of the range, so they tried their best to separate us. Not that they succeeded, but they tried their best.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And do you remember back then what was the physical training test comprised of? Oh.

WENZEL: Pushups, running and sit ups. And I almost didn't pass basic training because of my pushups.

BOWERS HEALEY: Had you been active in athletics while you were in high school?

WENZEL: Nope. No. No. Well, when I was I think I was in sixth grade, maybe fifth grade, when the Women's Athletic Act passed, which opened. I mean, that's before then. You didn't have girls softball teams. You didn't have girl track teams, girl basketball teams. They didn't exist. And so, yeah, it was like in junior high, just just before I started junior high, that they started doing it. And luckily, I have to say, the school district that I was in at the time and school districts back then were run by the district and then by the state and the federal government school. I can't remember what it's called right now, but they that department didn't exist yet. This was the school decided what we were going to do or and stuff like that. And they went full bore right away. I mean, immediately we had girls basketball teams. We had girls on track. We everything. The only thing I can think of that the girls weren't allowed to do at the time was wrestling. So but other than that, they started those teams up immediately where I was, which was nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Moving back to the basic, you came back to Wisconsin. Yes. And you mentioned that you started drilling in Green Bay with the 1394. Yes. Okay. Tell me about your experience there.

WENZEL: Again, it was really nice. There was my my enlistment MLS was 71, Lima, which was an administrative specialist. Excessively common for what women signed up for back then because we weren't allowed to sign up for many MLS, as there is very, very few. Mm hmm. But yeah, I went in and that's when I came. Actually, even at my first drill before I went to Basic, I got in there with the other individuals that were administrators. And that's when I found that I had that natural organizational ability and they used me and my abilities. And it was it was a great group of people to be around. Again, it's just it's such a great mix. I mean, we had we had a couple of Korean veterans, a lot of Vietnam veterans. So, yeah, that was nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And then you received orders, and I take it you knew you were going to receive orders to go to advanced training?

WENZEL: Yes. The dates were when I got my basic training orders. The orders were not set in stone, but the approximate date was there. I don't remember when I see my orders with the actual departure date, report to MEPs and all that stuff. But yeah, then I left. I think it was in October. I just I know it both times. I came back right before Christmas.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where did you go to 84?

WENZEL: Jackson, South Carolina again.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And the length of training. And what did you think about the training?

WENZEL: Eight weeks. That was a little on the boring side as far as the training went, because we had to learn how to type. And we and this we had girls sleeping in one barracks and boys sleeping in another barracks. But the classroom was mixed and we got to sit wherever we wanted because they trusted us. Oh, you know what? And it. No, it wasn't in separate barracks. The girls were on the first floor and the boys were on the third floor. And then the second floor, they left empty, which they really shouldn't have done because it was a great meeting place. Some of the girls found out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they spent it on that. In fact. I remember there was on the third floor half. Wait, because it's just, you know, bare rooms on the side, rooms on that side, one long walkway going the whole length of the building. And right in the middle of it was some boards that they had put up to separate. Girls were on that side, boys were on this side because they didn't have a lot of boys signing up for 71 Lima. I remember one day one of the drill instructors found out that the girls and boys had been meeting and he was pursed and he came storming. He was on the boys side and he came storming through and we're on the girls side. And then we hear this loud bang. He had kicked that wall down and was just screaming at us, which drill instructors do very well. So, yeah, that was one of the things I remember. I remember more relaxed atmosphere. We actually got to use the rec room that was in the barracks so we could hang out with the boys and play pool and talk to them. We were able to go what was on Fort Jackson. They call them beer gardens. So just a little place where you could go and have some beer. There was no hard alcohol, but you could have some beer and dance chutes and pool, stuff like that. That was fun. Okay, so.

BOWERS HEALEY: What's communication back home? Letter writing or phone calls or Not, really?

WENZEL: I had a couple of friends that were awesome at writing me consistently. I actually still have their letters. Not so much family. So, yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Now I take it you already knew how to type? Yeah. Yeah.

WENZEL: So I was kind of boring.

BOWERS HEALEY: So there were some in the class that may not have known how to write now. Okay.

WENZEL: Yeah. So that's what kind of made it boring because it's like, okay, now we're going to teach you how to alphabetize. Okay. I kind of already know how to do that, you know?

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Had you taken bookkeeping classes in.

WENZEL: Yes. High school and high school? Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And during your year back drilling at Green Bay, you were also doing this type of work or not?

WENZEL: I was. Which? Okay. Probably another reason why it was boring, because they were going over the the NPR Jays, the military personal record jackets. They were going over the pay files and the health record files. I had already been working with all that stuff for the better part of a year and getting in in order and helping prepare for annual trainings and things like that. So yeah, that was another reason why I was kind of worried because it's like, Yeah, I know this. It's like, okay, we're going to teach you how to fill out a form all on the back of the forms, the instructions. I'm not sure why you need to teach me this, but. Okay, we'll sit here. Yeah. And there was. I do know I graduated. I was one of the top five. I think.

BOWERS HEALEY: Out of approximately how many in the class.

WENZEL: That I could tell you, Well, we filled the barracks, so at least 100.

BOWERS HEALEY: So. And when you graduated from your team, what was your rank at that time?

WENZEL: What was. I was an E two or an E three. I came in as an E two. So I must I think it was an E 3.0.

BOWERS HEALEY: Why didn't you come in as an E to.

WENZEL: Oh, that was one of the. Because I had a year of college. Okay. So I got the E two rank for that.

BOWERS HEALEY: So after graduation from your T, did you come back to the same unit or a different unit?

WENZEL: I came back to the 1390 fourth. By then, I had actually, just prior to leaving for basic training while I was hanging out at the recruiting station, because that's what most enlistees do. And we just become these little groupies down there. I. Saw a young man hanging out with the Marine recruiters. And then I saw him like that night or a couple nights later at Mr. Roberts, where I was working at a waitress and started talking to him. I found out he was home on leave. He had just finished all of his training for the Marine Corps and all that stuff. I know he was on. He was on leave between basic because they do basic, then they all have to go to school of infantry and then they go to their MLS training. And he was on leave in between one of those and I can't remember which one I think it was. So I and the MLS training. Yeah, we met. Oh man. Of course. You know what happens when you're young? Fall in love. And I went to basic training. We wrote a little bit during training, but he was in training. I was in training. You don't have a lot of time. Then I went to school and we continued to write each other because you had to pay for long distance phone calls back then and they were not cheap. Plus all we had was the pay phone. I think there was to pay phones in the barracks for everybody in the barracks there. I know there were only four washers and dryers for everybody in the barracks. Yeah. So kind of kind of fell in love, kind of decided we were going to get married. So because I had when I came back from basic, I had started talking to my recruiter about going to active duty. And he and I got more serious and decided it would not work if we got married. And he was active in Marine Corps and I was active Army, so I stayed reserve.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And as you continue on with college or not, or how did that work?

WENZEL: When I came back from being sick. I went to UW Whitewater for a semester. That was hard because one weekend every month I had to get back up here to go to my drill weekend. And again, times were times were very different. Not everybody owned a car when they were 16. Most people didn't get cars until they were in their early 20s. So I didn't have a car to get myself back and forth, so I had to try to catch rides with people. And then I had to try to catch rides from Appleton to Green Bay during Drill. So that was that was hard.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. But you kept it up. You kept up both the schooling and the schooling for one semester and the drills. Yeah. Played reserve. Okay. And you were getting serious about getting married? Yeah. Okay. So how did all that work out?

WENZEL: When we got married in 85. So I went to 80. And I think it was right before we came back. Right before I left for 80 that he was also home on leave. And that's when we became engaged. I went to 80, planned a wedding, which was hard to do. He was stationed. On the USS New Jersey. He actually got his orders for the US s New Jersey two days before they before the Beirut bombing and was on ship 1 or 2 days after the Beirut bombing, which they remember when I found out. I was like, What do you mean that's where you are? That was my first experience of, Oh, when you're in the military, you go to dangerous places and, you know, worried. Glad he was on ship, not on land. Um, but they were it was that was very heart wrenching for me. I remember when I was in.

BOWERS HEALEY: Target, there was a time lapse between when you heard of the bombing and when you. Correspondent Or did you know that your future husband was not on land in Beirut?

WENZEL: I didn't. I knew that he was on a ship and I knew it was a battleship I was actually in. So I was in basic training when we invaded Grenada. I remember getting told that it was on the gas chamber day, and I was in Haiti when Beirut was bombed, and I already knew what his orders were. And then to hear about that and to find out that the jersey was there and that's where he was headed. But I went and I talked to one of the drill instructors. And because I was worried, I was nervous. I was upset. And she very nicely explained to me the difference between being on a ship and being on land and. Things like that. So it is my it is my nerves quite a bit, having that conversation with military occupational. He was a marine. They're all grunts. They're all grunts. They're all guns. But that was his actual mos was was a grunt when we start when we first met.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. All right. And then back to your situation. How long did you continue drilling with a 1390 fourth.

WENZEL: In till January of 1986. I had been married in May of 85. And we were waiting for him to finish his time on the USS New Jersey before I moved to California. And so in January of 86, he he drove out here with one of his friends. And then he and I drove back to Camp Pendleton together. And that was my first time that I changed reserve units. And I went to the 1/77 Transportation Company, which was in the Roark Army Reserve Center. On Camp Pendleton in the Delmar Basin.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how do you spell rock?

WENZEL: R o u r k e.

BOWERS HEALEY: Thank you. And it was that Del Mar.

WENZEL: Del Mar Basin on Camp Pendleton. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: So before you went out there, did you know that you were going to be able to drill with the army out there?

WENZEL: Yes. Yes, I had talked with my the 30 the individuals in the 1390 fourth about how I'm going to be moving to California. And they walked me through the process and they're like, well, where are you going to be living? And I said, Well, we're going to be moving to Oceanside. And they helped me find reserve units in the area. That one was the closest. So that's where I went. Right. Because every unit needs administrators. And it was a that was a transportation company there with their main transportation being what was called Lark's later amphibious refueling crafts ship to shore.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Where did you live when you went out to Camp Pendleton?

WENZEL: First, we lived on Pacific Street in Oceanside, literally right across from the ocean. First time I'd ever seen an ocean.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: So that was nice to live across from an ocean. Wasn't the greatest neighborhood, though, unfortunately. And then. So I moved out there in 86. And sometime in August or September. He. Was probably before that. But his company, third Battalion, ninth Marines, was getting ready to do a six month deployment. So basically, Marines do 18 months, Conus, Continental, United States. And then they do a six month deployment and then come back for 18 months and do six months, 18 months, six months. And so he was getting ready to leave for his six month deployment. And we got our base housing orders. So we were able to move on base.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where did you live? On base?

WENZEL: San Onofre. Housing area, which was on the north side of base just outside of San Clemente, California. Okay. Again, with a beautiful view of the ocean.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And your job, you continued on with the reserves monthly drills. Or were you active monthly drills?

WENZEL: But I was in California. I had started a job at Sears. I went to my annual training with my company and came back and was fired. And there wasn't a lot of things you could do back then for. Because I went to my annual training and they basically fired me for extended absence, even though they knew I was leaving. And. And that's very well protected nowadays, thanks to a lot of the. Military organizations like the Legion, the Vietnam Veterans Association, the VA, Veterans of Foreign Wars. It. Yeah, they really have. I did not realize how much they have done to make sure things like that don't happen.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: So. But it happened. I got fired. So I had no job, went to the unit and I was like, you're getting a job, Give me something to do on board. And they're like, Oh, come help us. So I just kept getting put on orders, you know, for a week here, three weeks there. My favorite thing that I got to do was update retirement points.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: There were a lot of individuals there, Korean and Vietnam veterans, that we're getting close to their 20 years and. Did not have any idea. Where their retirement points stood. So I helped go over their retirement points and then gather all the information to update and get them all the retirement points that they actually deserved. And very long, complicated process because, again, the only computer we had at the time was the one Sergeant First Class Isam. Personally purchased and had in his office. That was the only computer in the building. And he used it. Nobody else used it. He used it. So we had to type things up on the typewriter, handwrite them, mail them in, wait for the mail to get back to us. It was a very long, drawn out process as compared to nowadays.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how long do you work out of Camp Pendleton for this 77th transportation company?

WENZEL: Oh, how long was I with the 177? Um, in 89, I transferred to a unit in Santa Ana, I believe it was. One of. I had made a great friend in the 1/77. Uh, I think she was a staff sergeant at this time. So Staff Sergeant Barbara Hollingsworth and her husband John, and their children, we just became great friends. We were hanging out together and stuff like that. And she was active Guard and Reserve, EGR, and she got to transfer up to that unit.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: And I was like, well, I'm going to go I was kind of bored with the 177. And I wasn't doing things just for the 177. I did things. There were two, maybe three other units there. One of them was a battalion. The other two were companies. So I did, you know, I got put on orders for them once in a while to do help them with things. Once they found out how great I was with retirement points, a lot of them were that, Come on, help us out, get our guys up to date, which was great. It was such a great feeling to, you know, see these guys that, you know, they've been in for 19 years and they're showing, oh, I've got 50 retirement points. It's like, you should have more than that. You did two tours in Vietnam. I'm thinking you should have more than that. And to be able to come up with 2000 retirement points so that they could get the retirement that they deserved, that was that was awesome.

BOWERS HEALEY: On your intake form, you did mention Staff Sergeant or Sergeant Collins Worth as being somebody who was a significant part in your, uh, Army Reserve type time and mentoring you along it. Oh, I you talk more about that.

WENZEL: Well, my first interaction with Sergeant Barbara Hollingsworth was I my unit in Green Bay told me to call Here's the number for the reserve unit in California. When you get out there, contact them and asked to talk to Sergeant Roark. He's the one you need to talk to. So I did. And I was told there's no sergeant work here. And it was Barb. And I was like, really? As hard as told the contact. And she's like, Well, there's nobody here by that name. And I was I was young, so I was flustered. I was like, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. And then I went there to talk to somebody face to face to find out what was going on. And that's when I found out that it was called the Sergeant Roarke Reserve Center. It was named after a dead soldier. Like we do things. And I was just like, that was kind of mean of her. She knew she had to have known. Right. But, you know, then I met her and as different as we were and she had these long fingernails she typed with the tips of her fingernails. Short, petite, very beautiful. But we had. We. Yeah, we ended up just having a lot in common. We actually ended up I was pregnant with my first and she was pregnant with her first or second at the same time. But yeah, just. She became my best friend in California and I appreciate that. She helped me personally and within the reserve unit. Oh, she helped with my kids. She helped with my marriage when we were having problems. She just she was that person and it was really nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And so you mentioned that you were pregnant when you were out at Camp Pendleton. Did you you were there reservists, your husband's active duty. So where did you get medical assistance for your pregnancy?

WENZEL: On base at Camp Pendleton in the Naval hospital, which was by what was it called? Lake O'Neill? Yes. And Camp Pendleton is the largest land base on the continental United States. It took me 35 to 45 minutes to drive from one end of base to the other end of base where the hospital was. So and I found out I was pregnant two weeks before he left for his six months. And I was three months at the time. So I got to go through that pregnancy without him. But with the support of my neighbors, Mike and Sylvia Connor, who live next door to me on base and their wonderful children, Michael and Mitch. Tammy Atterbury and her husband, Mark. I you you meet so many wonderful people. Being in the military, it's they become family. They really do. And I, I consider myself fortunate that I was able to make my military connections and my spousal military connections. It was a really good way to see both sides, you know? So, yeah, that was it was nice. And I totally forgot where we started while I started on this tangent.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah. Okay. So I take it you were probably still with the 1/77 when you had your first child?

WENZEL: Yes, I was.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what rank were you when you had your first child?

WENZEL: Okay, so everybody watching us want you to know one of the worst things you can do as a female and I'm sure people don't women don't do this nowadays. I did not want to outrank my husband, so I turned down a minimum of four promotions to Sergeant because I didn't want to be a sergeant before my husband. One of the worst decisions I ever made. My friend Barb Hollingsworth and even Sylvia Connor both tried telling me that that was not the way to do it. And I just I wouldn't listen to them. And I should have listened to Barb because her husband was in the reserves and ended up going year also. But I didn't I was very I'm going to be the traditional housewife and I'm not going to, you know, rise above my my husband. I'm always going to stay just under him. And I shouldn't have done that.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was that was your husband back for the birth of your first child or not?

WENZEL: Made it back by less than a week.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: Yeah. And actually when he came back. So they were done with their six months and then they have to do all the cleanup in the packing and all that stuff for the last two weeks. And his. Captain, Captain Green allowed him and one of the other guys who whose wife was also pregnant and do right around the same time that if you can get a mack flight, which is one of the place where you sit and wait and hope they get you to where you're going, eventually you'll go wait for a mac flight. If you don't get one, by the time we leave, you can come home with us. But go try to get home on time. And they did. They got a mac flight to Hawaii and they got one from Hawaii to the San Francisco area, which is northern California. I'm in Southern California. And they're like, Yeah, yeah. We have no idea how long it's going to take for us to get a mac flight down to you because finding a mac flight to Kansas isn't as easy because a lot of people are trying to do that quick jump from Frisco to Oceanside or Frisco to Tucson. I was like, I'm coming to get you. Click. And remember, no cell phones. We had no cell phones. We had no G.P.S. We I had a map, an actual foldout map. I had an address where they were supposedly at, and I jumped in our little Colt Vista and I was a week away from delivering. And I drove up. I drove nine hour drive and I didn't pick them up. Oh, no, we didn't have the call list at that time. We had the little two door. I don't remember what it was, but anyhow, I picked them both up, drove them back home. Okay, Well, crazy things.

BOWERS HEALEY: Back to your military career where you're having well, you're working out active duty marriage there and you're a reserve duty and having children or a child at least. So you went up to Santa Ana? Yes. And what unit was there?

WENZEL: I don't remember. I was only there for a very short time, but I don't remember the number or anything. There were yeah, there was a major that was there that was inappropriate. She kept on asking me out for dates. One time a group of us went to go meet at a bar and just, you know, hang out. And he walked me to my car. Offered to follow me home to make sure I got home safely and pinned me against the car, tried to kiss me. And I'm just like, you know, this is this is not happening. And numerous times I was like, just stop. Just leave me alone. Go away. Not. Not just. No. And he just wouldn't listen.

BOWERS HEALEY: I didn't know you were married.

WENZEL: Oh, yeah, he was married to okay. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did you report to anyone?

WENZEL: I informed one of the people there that he kept inappropriately asking me for dates or to come over to his house for different things. Really wasn't taken very seriously back then.

BOWERS HEALEY: Would you report to in terms of rank? Not not personal.

WENZEL: Was this it was that it was an 87. Okay. I remember that. I just remember who he was. And maybe I should have found a female officer report to. Maybe she would have believed me more. But now I was just like, now. And at that time, Sergeant First Class Bob Campbell, who I had met while I was at the 177, he was working at the 63rd hour Army Reserve Command. And now he and I were still talking, not not texting, not Facebooking, like, you know, we had to actually talk and call each other. And he had asked me to come up to the Arkham. And did I go back to the 1/77 first?

BOWERS HEALEY: And Arkham again is Army.

WENZEL: Reserve Command.

BOWERS HEALEY: Command. Yes. Okay.

WENZEL: I did. I went back to the 1/77 first.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: Yes. So first I went back to the 1/77.

BOWERS HEALEY: And they took you back?

WENZEL: They took me back. Okay. Sergeant Louise Renteria was there. Very no nonsense administrator. This is the way it's supposed to be done. And it will be done the right way. But at the same time, very compassionate. Big heart type of person. Yeah. She had two kids. She was married. She was married to a marine also. And she was active. AGR. I can't remember. Army Guard and Reserve. Active Guard and Reserve.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: Yeah. So, yeah, they. They took me back.

BOWERS HEALEY: And eventually you went to a different command. You left the 1/77 and went to our 63rd aka.

WENZEL: Yes. And by then I had my sergeants because my ex, my now ex-husband had gotten his sergeant, and I immediately put in for my sergeant, which I got hands down. Mm hmm. So I don't remember exactly when I got it, but I got it at some point in time before 1990. Probably before in 1989.

BOWERS HEALEY: What did you do at the 63rd outcome? Admin.

WENZEL: Administrative. Um, I only did like a couple weeks of being on orders of there. Mostly I did the Jro weekends, but I was the. San Diego area retention NCO, which means I talked to the people that were up for enlistment and tried to convince them to re-enlist. Told them what was available to them, should they re-enlist? Should they want to re-enlist? You know, maybe we could get you know, you don't want to be in this unit. Maybe we can get the transfer in and things like that. And that was actually down in San Diego that I did that.

BOWERS HEALEY: And by this time, had you already re-enlisted?

WENZEL: Oh, yes. At least once or twice by this time.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And were you dealing with primarily a reservist when you were the retention NCO?

WENZEL: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Where did you drill? Down at San Diego.

WENZEL: I don't remember the name of the company that I was at. I can picture the room that I was in. I can't remember the name of the company I was at. So but that was yeah, I enjoyed doing it. I did not enjoy the drive that was involved because it took me like an hour and a half just.

BOWERS HEALEY: So I'm free.

WENZEL: Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Yeah. So how long were you there at San Diego?

WENZEL: Not very long. I'm trying to remember. Sequence of events. So as I did Santa, the Santa Ana was in 89. So San Diego was well, then. So probably. 92. I went down to I went to the 63rd. Come 91 or 92, I went to the Arkham and by then I had two kids.

BOWERS HEALEY: When did you have your second child?

WENZEL: Summer first, 1990.

BOWERS HEALEY: 1990.

WENZEL: And again, my husband was away.

BOWERS HEALEY: Was he away for the birth also, or the pregnancy?

WENZEL: All of it. All of it. Yeah, we got. I got pregnant and. They were doing a lot of training. So he was literally three weeks of every month he was gone. He came back right around the end of July. And no one. It was like 4 or 5 months pregnant. And its commanding officer said, this is it. You can stay. You will not go out any more training. You could stay and be here for the pregnancy. Yes, Rocking it. And then August 2nd, 1990, I went in for an ultrasound. It was the first doctor's visit that he was able to go to me with the first ultrasound he was ever able to go into with with with any with either of our children. And while we were getting the ultrasound, his pager went off. By this time, he was working for headquarters, Camp Pendleton, as a computer specialist. He actually. Diagramed and figured out and and physically laid the hard wires for the first network on Camp Pendleton to get all their computers talking to each other. But yeah, so, yeah, we're in there. We're getting. And his beeper goes off he goes, finds a pay phone calls home, comes back in. He's trying really hard not to let me know what's going on and just act like this is okay, let's finish this up. And I'm just like, But I knew something was up. That was the day this wonderful man named for Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. And within 48 hours, my husband was gone. And he got to go sit in the desert for a very long time. Okay. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you had your child, Camp Pendleton, in 1990 and December of 1990 and continued on in the reserves. Yep. Okay. And I take it during this time you were reserves your full time wife and mother and you were not working?

WENZEL: Yes, I was not working. I would, but I was pulling a lot of. If I if I if I needed something, I there were a lot of like I said, Barb Hollingsworth and Luis Renteria were awesome. I would go to them and I'd say, yeah, you know, my ex charged off the credit card again. I need to make some money. And then I'm like, All right. And they'd find somewhere that needed somebody on orders and they would get me on order. So I was working regularly on an irregular basis.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And so how long did you end up being out of Camp Pendleton in that area?

WENZEL: I was on Camp Pendleton from 86 to 94.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you say you were able to find area reserve billets?

WENZEL: Oh, yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Yeah.

WENZEL: Okay. Lot easier to find near an active duty base.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: A lot easier. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: So tell me what happened in your military career.

WENZEL: Oh, well, I moved back to Wisconsin.

BOWERS HEALEY: I. When did you move back to Wisconsin?

WENZEL: In June of 1994.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: And I wanted to continue with my reserve. I just re-enlisted like a year before or less than a year before. And I wanted to continue on, but I moved back. I had been gone for a long time. A lot of the hometown connections really weren't there anymore as far as, you know, friends and things like that. The only family I had in the area was my mom and dad. I had a sister in Germany, sister in Florida, a sister in think she was in Minnesota at that time, maybe northern Wisconsin. And I needed somebody to watch my kids on the weekends. And I asked my mom if she would watch them just until I could find somebody permanent. Because, you know, once you get into the drill and into the unit and you tell people, hey, I just I need someone to watch my kids and a drill week and I need somebody to be able to take my kids during annual training like it's a family day. That whole unit would have helped me out instantaneously. I kind of wish that I had gone to the unit. Because my mother said she was not going to assist me, that she was not going to take my kids one week in a month and help me out. You know, and I say hindsight being 2020, I should have driven up to the unit at that point and said, listen, I want to be here. I want to be with you. I've been with you before and I loved your unit. This is my situation because they would have helped me. I know they would have. And I wish I would have done that.

BOWERS HEALEY: And this is back with what unit?

WENZEL: That would have been the 1394 Civil affairs out of Green Bay.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you didn't do that. So what happened?

WENZEL: I ended up being transferred to the inactive ready reserve and having to pay back my $5,000. And that was a lot of money back, the enlistment bonus. And then I just never I never re up. So. Yeah. 14 years just down the drain.

BOWERS HEALEY: So you ended up getting out in 1997 officially, but you were IRR at that time?

WENZEL: Yeah, I was IRR from 94 until I got out.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. Yeah. So I typically ask, well, what were your feelings about leaving the leaving the army? Sounds like it was a tough thing to do, but necessary at the time. But what are your how would you describe it?

WENZEL: It it was hard. When I when I had to make the choice to go into the IRR. But I remember getting the discharge papers in the mail and that is like somebody to sack me in the stomach. And it's like, that's, that's it. That's my family is, you know, it was literally like being told you're not part of that family anymore. So that was that was hard.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. So you came back to the Wisconsin area and you had two kids. And so how did you make do?

WENZEL: Best as I could. Best as I could. Got a job. Worked.

BOWERS HEALEY: I take it your former husband was not in the picture as you raising children?

WENZEL: No. No. He made the decision to stay. I mean, he was active at the time, so he had to stay in California. But then after 16 years of active duty, he opted not to re-enlist and still decided to stay in California. So, yeah, just out here on my own, make trying to make friends that could help me, you know, and and working, taking whatever job I could.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did you work kind of admin related jobs?

WENZEL: Oh, yes. Yes, definitely admin. I mean, one of the jobs I took up was that automatic fire protection and I got there and they were still hand typing their work orders and they had a computer. And I'm just like, Why are we hand typing this? You've got a computer, you've got a dot matrix printer. Why? Why are we doing this? And they're like, it was a small office and they're like, Well, there's the only way we can do it. No, no, no, no, no. So I went rummaging through the computer, which the benefit, you know, my ex had been on the hardware side of computers, so we I had a computer and I had a computer in our house from 1986. I mean, I moved to California. We got a computer in the house not even a month later, and I always had a computer in my house. I loved the software. And so I went looking through the computer and I'm like, look. Database program. Never heard of it before, but it's a database program. And I'm like, let's, let's get this work in. So I made a program that you could hit 3 or 4 buttons and work orders pop up. So yeah, I like I like doing that. I like, you know, my dad was one of his he had a lot of saints. One of his favorite was just kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. And so I love streamlining things. And that was a way to streamline. Yeah. Bounced around, do a couple of different jobs here and there. Finally ended up with Town and Country Electric, which is now faith technologies and in administrative. Eventually moving into the IT department. And that was that was awesome. That was again, it was like it was a family. Everybody that worked there, we all knew each other. We didn't all hang out with each other, but we all knew each other.

BOWERS HEALEY: Now, was that in Appleton or where was that?

WENZEL: That was an app.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: Actually actually had. One office in Appleton, and then they had 2 or 3 in other parts of the state when I started. And now they're an international company. They grew well. They grew well.

BOWERS HEALEY: So and you talked about connections and not having a lot of connections when you moved back, military connections. When did you get connected with military groups? If you did?

WENZEL: Six years ago. About six years ago, I went to a military night at the. What do they call it? Them? The Timber Rattlers Stadium. I wanted to call them the foxes, but I went there. There was a display table. I went up. I started talking to a gentleman named Jim Strong, talking about an organization that he had founded, Fox Valley Veterans Council. And what they do is they work with all the vessels, the veterans service organizations in the area and to centralize the information. So. You know, he got me into that. I started working with the council a little bit. Then I during the Legion. I had to say I had intentionally stayed away because as wonderful as veterans are, as wonderful as the military is, we still have our prejudices. And I was a non combat veteran, which not looked highly upon. It's like, well, so you never really did anything that's like, well, kind of, sort of did you know if you want to take time to listen. Yeah. And then I. Yeah. Then I got into the American Legion in little shoot post two, five, eight. And absolutely loving it. Absolutely loving it. They're very community centered, veterans centered. And I did look at some of the other American Legion's in the area. They they're small enough to be really friendly, large enough to get a lot accomplished. And they really are really community focused.

BOWERS HEALEY: What types of things does the what did you say, 58 little shoot.

WENZEL: To 85 to 2.

BOWERS HEALEY: 58258258. Yes. What sort of things do they do and what do you do with the American Legion?

WENZEL: I am currently the assistant adjutant, the historian and the newsletter editor.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: And what do we do? We take care of veterans. Oh, and I'm on the rifle squad for funerals and the flag team for putting flags up, which is one of the things that they do. A lot of cities put flags up at the beginning of the summer and then take them down at the end of the summer. And in little Chute, we put them up for national holidays and military days where we take the flags or in the back of a trailer and we walk up and down Main Street and put them in each and every hole. I think there's like 200 flags. We make sure for Memorial Day we get out there and we put the flags by every veteran's gravestone. We look at it, we check it off. Oh, yeah, that's another thing I take care of the oldest section of the Saint John's Cemetery. And they recently found a Civil War veterans headstone that was not legible at all. Not legible.

BOWERS HEALEY: So I find it through records. Or how did you find it?

WENZEL: I was able to make out a couple of the letters on the stone, and then I looked through the St John's records of veterans listed in the old section matched it up, so that was pretty easy. But yeah, I did all the paperwork and everything to get a new headstone, a replacement headstone ordered. I did some genealogy research so we can reach out to the family, the direct descendants, and let them know that, hey, we're going to be putting up a new headstone for your great, great, great, great grandpa. If you want to come on down and, you know, be a part of it. I have I found a little I think 12, 12 to 15 is what I found. Four direct descendants, but only four live in the immediate area. So but, you know, we'll send them letters and let them know that we're doing this. They might not even know that they had a Civil War veteran in their family. Which one of them is actually named after him? And so do you know that the man that you're named after was a Civil War veteran? You know, bring that through. But for the community, we do. We do a lot with Camp American Legion, which is. Used to be a really, really secretive place that nobody seems to know about. And everyone was supposed to know about it, but the word just wasn't out there. And then Don Grundy took over as camp director, and he did a great job at spreading the word and getting it out there that this is a camp that is available to you as a veteran to come and use. Come up here. You get one week a year, it's free. Just come on up. So we do a lot.

BOWERS HEALEY: And that's located where.

WENZEL: Menaka area actually is, right outside of Hazlehurst. Okay. And so in our post has a cabin up there. We were actually the second cabin built up there. So we do a lot with Camp American Legion keeping our cabin up to date. We're in the process of getting ready to tear down the current cabin because it will be, I think, 96 years old this summer. So it needs to come down and we need to put a new one up. It has been updated throughout the years but needs to come down. We do scholarships for the children at the high school. I think we give out. Give out two of the Hammond scholarships. And then I think there's two other ones. We sponsor children at Boys Badger State and Girls Badger State, which is where teenagers go. And they basically role play as lawmakers for the country and they learn about how it really works or how it's supposed to work. I should say we do the oratorical concert contest. So every year the American Legion. Students get to come and give a presentation on a specified topic and they get five minutes to talk, two minutes to answer questions, and then they're given a spontaneous subject to talk about. And they have to come and give a three minute, three minute presentation on that. And if they win, you know, at the at the post, then they move up to the district. If they win at district, they move up to state. If they win at state, they get to go to nationals. And I believe the top prize for the first winner is if it's a 10 or $20,000 scholarship to the school that they are going to. And that's. That's a decent amount of money. What else do we do? Make sure we take care of our elder veterans, especially if they're in a home. We do regular visits to some of the different elder care facilities. Yeah, we do a lot. That's something that's not even the tip of the iceberg. There is so much that we do with the the community of Little Chute. We we donated our land to the city, to the village of Little Chute so they could build a fire police station and a new elementary school. Like you guys need it. We have it here, you know.

BOWERS HEALEY: So yeah, switching a little bit topics to your children, Are they grown and live in the area or not?

WENZEL: I have three sons. My eldest is there G five this year. He joined the National Guard in December of 2008. He went to basic training at Fort Jackson. My middle son, my eldest son, talked into joining and so he joined in December of 2008. Also. They didn't go at the same time, but they both went to Fort Jackson for basic training. Oh, my eldest went, Where did he go for his shoot now? I can't remember. I think it was in Mississippi, but he went for a construction engineer. And he was stationed out of Ashland, Wisconsin. He's done two tours over in the sandbox.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Yes.

WENZEL: He's married. He and his current wife have five children together. I'm. Very proud of them. He he he works at the post office. And I like he he got my that that same community heart that I have. He he likes serving his nation. He likes doing things for the community. So it's all kind of nice. Thank you. There we go. So, yeah, so that's nice. My middle son, his name is Kenneth. My eldest is Kenneth. My middle son Benjamin, went to basic training at Fort Jackson, went to Quartermaster School in Virginia. I believe it was Fort Lee, I remember correctly. And he passed away in July of 2010.

BOWERS HEALEY: That's your middle son.

WENZEL: Or your middle son. Okay. So just a two and a half weeks before his daughter was born. And then my youngest son, Douglas, is 19, currently in college, and he wants to be a police officer. So. I don't like it. I don't want him to be a police officer. I would rather have them join the military. His dad is a police officer down in Milwaukee. And. Yeah, but yeah, he wants to be a cop just like Daddy. And he has wanted to be a police officer since he was four. He has said since he was four years old that he's going to be a cop. Okay. So that's what he's going for.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All in all, how do you feel about your military service and how do you how do your kids feel about your military service?

WENZEL: My youngest you really had no experience with it because by the time he was born, I was discharged. My eldest, he was six when we moved off of Camp Pendleton. So that, you know, the a lot of memories. But they know how proud I am of my service. My youngest is learning through my veteran organization interactions how much it means to me and thanks to the Internet and things like Myspace and then Facebook, I have reconnected with Michelle Bobek, another great friend that I met while stationed at Camp Pendleton, Sergeant Hollingsworth. I reconnected with Mike and Mitch Connor, who they were the children and I live next door to and I was sending off for housing. Their father was actually one of the first kids during Desert Storm in January of 91. Staff Sergeant Mike Carter, Senior. And. It's amazing how you can go so long without talking to these people, but it all picks up right where it left off. Because there's that that connection, that familiarity. So it's nice. And I know that, you know, they are spread out the country, you know. Barb's in California. Michelle's in Pennsylvania. Cindy is in Oklahoma. Wasilla is another She was a female Marine that did four years, got out. And Mary Jo, who was an active duty Marine, Wendell was their last name. And they're in Oklahoma. And I've taken I like to travel and I have hopped in the car with my kids and I've called them up and like, Hey, we're passing through. Awesome. Come stay for a couple of nights. And we do. We stay for a couple nights. It's no problem. So that's it's nice they they've seen all of them have seen that family connection that I have with my other military members. And it's awesome. I like that.

BOWERS HEALEY: How did you learn about the Wisconsin Veterans Oral History program and what motivated you to do this interview?

WENZEL: My cousin and my cousin, sure. My cousin Tiffany Taylor and.

BOWERS HEALEY: She know about it.

WENZEL: She actually worked for the Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs for a while. She is very active in the American Legion and Disabled American Veterans. She is extremely active in the veterans community. And I find out a lot of things through her. And that's how I found out about the I am not Invisible, which led me to the History Project. And, you know, one thing leads to another.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And I see you're wearing a not I am not invisible T-shirt. Yep. Where when did you get that?

WENZEL: I last I think it was last September that I went to Manitowoc for the. I am not invisible. I think it was the three point or the 4.0 for a photoshoot. Okay.

BOWERS HEALEY: Because you go with other people that urge you to go by yourself.

WENZEL: I drove down by myself. Okay. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Yeah. And that's when you did a brief little interview with Luke Sprague.

WENZEL: I didn't go with Luke. There was. It was someone. A woman? Yeah. Okay. Somebody else. Found out about the women's veterans website. Eight that I signed up for. I can't remember the name of it right now. I had my picture taken. You know, and the interesting part about, you know, I'm a veteran. You get together and you meet other veterans and it's like, Yeah, hey, how you doing like that? And even when you watch the guys, it's like, Oh, you're a veteran. Awesome. That's good. But when two women veterans meet. It's like a lifeline is thrown out. Like, Dude, I'm here. If you ever need me, let me know. And you? There's a real instant bond. I'm Debbie Nugent. Is one that I've met recently. Well, recently, like six years ago. More than that, when I was with, I was with Rolling Thunder for a little while. That was actually before I met Jim Strong. I was with Rolling Thunder.

BOWERS HEALEY: Rolling Thunder is what.

WENZEL: Rolling Thunder is. And Oregon is is the organization that helped bring forth awareness of the P.O.W. Mia situation in America.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

WENZEL: And they were named Rolling Thunder for two reasons. One, there was a major offensive during Vietnam, which was called Rolling Thunder. And two, the first time they they've been trying to get the attention of Congress and Senate and say we need to do something. We have guys that are over there. Some of them might still be P.O.W.s. Some of them we might just find their bones there. They're missing in action. We need to bring them home. And they were like getting nowhere. And they're like, we're going to make sure you hear us. And they got a group together sometime in the late 70s, if I remember correctly, maybe early 80s. And they all took their bikes and they did their first ride through D.C. and they just basically circled the capital a couple of times. It was hundreds of bikes. And when you hear hundreds of Harleys, it sounds like rolling thunder. And that's how they they they got their name. And yeah, that was that was a great organization to belong to. And fortunately, their closest chapter was up in Green Bay. And for various health reasons, I just couldn't continue making it up there every month. So. But yeah, so and then I was looking for another one to get into, and that's when I met Jim and ended up joining Legion in Little Chute. But yeah, women veterans you meet them and. We've we've had a different experience than the men have had. And the men don't realize how different that experience was. My friend Barbara Hollingsworth, when she went through basic training, women weren't trained on weapons. And I went through not even five years later and we were being trained, you know, the female Marines used to get minimal hand-to-hand combat training. Now I get the exact same. They got to they have to be able to test with a man twice their size and come out alive. And they're taught those things now, too. Too. We're taught things at the same level. Now, it's not that. Well, you're a woman. You really only need to know this. It's. Yeah. So much has come forth because of those that came before us. I just. Two days ago, spent time with a wonderful woman named Alice Ludwig, maybe named Van Barksdale, who was in the Army Corps during World War Two. She's 101 years old.

BOWERS HEALEY: Wow.

WENZEL: And it is thanks to women like her that I can do what I am doing. And it is thanks to women like myself and my cousin and Michelle and Barb and all of them that these women can be pilots nowadays. Denise, to be able to be a pilot, you know, they can be a captain of a ship. They can be an admiral. They, they, they they can do. They can pick their families. You know, we had a here are the possible MLS, as you can do, because, you know, you're a girl and you just can't do that much.

BOWERS HEALEY: And let me go back. You mentioned the 101 year old Alice Alice. What is her.

WENZEL: Ludwig l u d w a g. And her maiden name was Van Box Doll. I'm born and raised in Little Chute, Wisconsin.

BOWERS HEALEY: She's still living. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Correct.

WENZEL: And her husband was a World War two. That, too. He enlisted in. He enlisted in, I think, over November of 39. And she enlisted in October. November of 44. So am I. I opened the door to discussion about because I want her to get her picture taken. She needs to be in there. So. But I, you know, I, I weighed in. I don't storm in. So I'm I'm I'm approaching it slowly. And see, because she she's 101. I, I can say something to her and she can forget it or I can say something to her and she will never forget it. It's like it's one or the other. And I'm trying to explain some things to her. Like Facebook or cell phones. She just doesn't understand it as well. So it has to be explained differently. Sure. So awesome Woman actually grew up here. I did not know that the entire time growing up. I never knew. And she was a veteran. I knew her husband was. I never knew she was interesting.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah. And also common.

WENZEL: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Well, I think we've covered a lot. But I do want to ask you, is there anything else that you would like to cover or talk about that we haven't?

WENZEL: Oh, uh, I. I can not really think of anything that I would if my great, great, great, great, great, great grandchild is watching us. Just know family is important. No matter how far back you go, no matter how far forward you go, you need family, military, family, blood, family. It doesn't matter. I have my my seed. I have nine grandchildren and people are like, wow, nine. I'm like, Yeah. My my eldest son is 35. My eldest grandchild is 17, almost 18.

BOWERS HEALEY: Uh huh.

WENZEL: And he is not a grandchild through blood. He is a grandchild through love. So I have three by blood, six by love. So family isn't is what you make it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, well, I think we've come to the conclusion here, but I want to thank you for doing this oral history. It'll be a great part of what the Wisconsin Veteran's Museum collects. And you cover a broad span and you cover reserves and a little bit of active duty and time and an interesting time to be in the Army Reserves. And also, you played a just a tremendously important part in getting those points for reservists because those are so important for their their pay and for their continued service.

WENZEL: So and their VA benefits, right? I mean, there's so much that depends on those points. And I'm in the process of trying to explain it to my son. They're tracked easier nowadays, but you still got to check them. You still have to make sure that they're accurate. Okay. And the sooner you do that, the easier it is to fix it. So.

BOWERS HEALEY: Well, thank you for your service and what you did. You turn that room. And that concludes our interview.

[Interview Ends]