Oral History Interview with Virginia S. Russell

[Interview Begins]

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Today is August 18th, 2023, and this is an interview with Virginia S. Russell, who served in the United States Air Force from 1972 through 1980. This interview is being conducted by Ellen Healey via Zoom for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. No one else was present for the interview. All right, Virginia, would you please state your full name, including your middle name?

RUSSELL: Virginia Sue Russell.

BOWERS HEALEY: And your maiden name?

RUSSELL: Thayer. T-H-A-Y-E-R.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. Thank you. And do you go by a nickname?

RUSSELL: Ginny.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And Virginia, or Ginny, where did you grow up?

RUSSELL: Where didn't I grow up? I was born in Virginia. Lived in Virginia, South Carolina, back to Virginia, Indiana, Connecticut, then Wisconsin. My dad 00:01:00was in the Navy.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. I was thinking that was probably the case. Uh, so how much of your youth did you spend traveling around in the Navy before you landed in Wisconsin?

RUSSELL: I, uh, God, till about eleven years old. Yeah, that's eleven years old.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And what do you remember about, uh, your dad's, uh, military experience?

RUSSELL: It was fun.

BOWERS HEALEY: It was what?

RUSSELL: It was fun. Yeah, it was fun. I remember when we were stationed in Connecticut, in Groton. We were there when the Thresher went down. And that was like a ghost town. It was the worst days of our lives when we were there. And I remember telling my dad at one time, I said, "You know, it's too bad you didn't get stationed here when we were-- us girls were a little bit older," because the 00:02:00swimming hole was surrounded by the men's barracks. [Both laugh]

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. That's an interesting thought. Tell me a little bit more about the USS Thresher. You mentioned it went down. What was it in?

RUSSELL: It was a submarine, and it went down in, I believe it was 1963 when it lost-- went down, and our neighbor's husband was on that ship. Sub. And it was devastating to go outside, and it was like nobody was there. It was all-- like everybody had disappeared and they had disappeared into their house just to get away from the fact that a hundred and some guys were dead. Through no fault of their own. Just because-- I don't know why it went down. I don't remember, but yeah, it was a sad day.

BOWERS HEALEY: Hm. And so you were about eleven when your-- did your dad retire 00:03:00from the military or just leave?

RUSSELL: Yes, he retired. He retired from the military. And my mom was under the impression that we were going to be going to live at near Great Lakes Navy Base. And little did he know, somehow-- or she know somehow or other, the furniture got shipped to Green Bay. So, we had to come to Green Bay because that's where they sent our furniture. And my mom swears my dad was behind it. He swears he wasn't, that it was all a mistake. And so, it was a good thing we did come back to Green Bay, because there was a lot of family tragedies that we needed to be here for.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Where were your parents from originally?

RUSSELL: My dad was born in Milwaukee. My mom was from Green Bay, and they-- my mom's family has a farm up in Eland, Wisconsin, and my dad's parents eventually 00:04:00owned a hotel tavern up in Eland, and they threw a welcome home party for all the service members after World War II. And that's how they met.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see. Okay, and, uh, where did you attend school, uh, once you returned to Green Bay?

RUSSELL: Saint Patrick's Grade School, which no longer exists, Franklin Middle School, then West High.

BOWERS HEALEY: And-- go ahead.

RUSSELL: Graduated in 1971. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And while you were in high school or after high school, did you hold any jobs or what did you do after you graduated from high school?

RUSSELL: Me and my girlfriend Linda went to Badger Business College, which was no longer in existence. It was downtown Green Bay, and we went there to get a 00:05:00degree in business. And we were talking one day about what we were going to do after we graduated, and we were talking about maybe joining the military. And one of the instructors heard us and she told us she would never-- we would never do it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

RUSSELL: We did it just to prove her wrong.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, you both did it?

RUSSELL: Yes. She joined the Army, and I joined the Air Force.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, all righty. [Russell laughs] How long was your business school supposed to be? Was it a one-year course or more?

RUSSELL: It was a two-year course. And we learned eventually that it was kind of on the shady side. There was a lot of veterans going there, and things were going on with the VA and the schools, so it was kind of happy that we got away from there.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Um, before you decided to join the Air Force, what did you 00:06:00plan to do for your career?

RUSSELL: I wanted to join [laughs] the FBI. [Laughs] I wanted to become a legal secretary with either joining the FBI, which I thought would be cool, or a lawyer or whatever. Just anything to do with being a secretary-- a legal secretary.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, you decided to join the Air Force. Why the Air Force?

RUSSELL: I like the color of the uniform. And I didn't want to join the Navy because I was afraid of the water. And so, I picked the-- I didn't like the Army uniform, and I didn't like the Marine uniform, so the Air Force won out.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see. And, um, when did you actually go down to join the Air Force?

RUSSELL: Um, took the oath of office September 7th, 1972. Right, in Milwaukee, 00:07:00and we left soon after and went to Lackland Air Force Base for basic training.

BOWERS HEALEY: And did you go to Lackland in September? Right away?

RUSSELL: Yes. Right away. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what did your family say about you joining the military?

RUSSELL: They were proud. My dad was happy. My mom was happy. Um, my sister was in college. My brother was still in high school, and they were all for it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Uh, did it give you any pause? Uh, the Vietnam War was still going on in 1972.

RUSSELL: No. No.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. How did you get to Lackland Air Force Base?

RUSSELL: They actually flew us on a plane to San Antonio, Texas. And then I believe, if I remember correctly, there was a bus there that took us to Lackland.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And tell me about your training at Lackland. What was your 00:08:00experience like?

RUSSELL: [Laughs] I vowed I'd never go back to Lackland because I was so deathly afraid of one of the instructors we had. Airman First Class Carpenter. Oh, my God, she's scared the daylights out of me. She-- all she had to do was look at me and I'd say, how high do you want me to jump, lady? [Laughs] She-- in fact, that's how I met my husband was we had what we called the 341s, they were discrepancy reports, and I had to turn one in on Monday morning to her for something I did wrong in my room. And I accidentally threw it away. I actually went to the dipsy dumpster looking for that discrepancy report, because I didn't want to have to tell her I threw it away. That's how scared I was. [Laughs] I'm 00:09:00telling my friends about this. And Tom was in front of us, and he goes, "You got to be kidding me." And I said, "No, I'm not," I said, "That's how scary she is." [Laughs] And we got to talking and we went from there. We got married a year later.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Did you find the 341?

RUSSELL: Yes, I did. [Laughs]

BOWERS HEALEY: Very good. In the Dempsey dumpster?

RUSSELL: In the dipsy dumpster, right where I threw it. I went, yes! [Laughs]

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And so, that's an interesting story about how you met your-- your future husband. By the Dempsey dumpster.

RUSSELL: Right. [Laughs]

BOWERS HEALEY: Other than being deathly afraid of your instructor, uh, how did you-- how would you describe the rest of your experience at Lackland?

RUSSELL: It was good. It really was. It was interesting. We had classes in how 00:10:00to put makeup on, how to walk in high heels, how to sit with a skirt on. It was all classes on how to be a proper female in the military. How-- and we had classes in marching and how to make your bed and all that stuff, but it was pretty interesting.

BOWERS HEALEY: Uh, was your class co-ed, or was it all women?

RUSSELL: It was all women.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And your future husband just happened to be at training at the same time?

RUSSELL: He was at training-- yes. He was on his-- getting ready to graduate from basic training, and he was going to Sheppard Air Force Base for training on aircraft maintenance.

UNKNOWN: [Inaudible]

RUSSELL: That's my puppy dog barking at my grandson.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And where-- where is Sheppard Air Force Base?

RUSSELL: Sheppard is-- um, in Texas about forty to fifty miles from Lackland, if I remember correctly.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Well, uh, you met your future husband by the Dempsey dumpster, did you have any other contact with him in the next few months?

RUSSELL: Oh, yes, yes. We, um, before he graduated, we went to the Airman's Club and hung out there, and then he graduated. And when I had base-- I had town pass where I could go into San Antonio. He actually came back from-- from Sheppard and went on my-- my base, my town pass with me. So, and then we kept in contact 00:12:00through phone and letters and all that stuff.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And how long was your basic training?

RUSSELL: Six-- about eight weeks, if I remember. Six to eight weeks because in October of '72 I was stationed-- I went direct duty assignment because I went in as an administrative specialist and I already knew how to type, take shorthand because of all the classes I took in high school. So, I went direct duty assignment to Richards-Gebaur Air Force Base. And, um, I believe that was in October, so it was about eight weeks.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. I'm, oh, Richards-Gebaur Air Force Base. Is that in-- where is that?

RUSSELL: Missouri. That's in Missouri. And it no longer exists.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And so, you knew when you signed up back in Milwaukee that you were going to be an admin specialist.

RUSSELL: Correct.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. Uh, did you go straight to, uh, Richards-Gebaur or did you have leave?

RUSSELL: I had leave. So, I went home-- I came home. And, um, my dad made me wear my uniform everywhere I went because he was so proud of me. [Laughs]

BOWERS HEALEY: Right, right.

RUSSELL: Had to wear it to church, had to wear it here, had to wear it there. [Laughs]

BOWERS HEALEY: And at, uh, in Missouri, what unit were you attached to?

RUSSELL: I was attached to Headquarters Air Force Communications System assignments.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what's the purpose of assignments? Uh, what was the purpose--

RUSSELL: I typed up orders for individuals to go here, to be transferred from one base to another, um, so that's what it was, it was making assignments, 00:14:00assigning people to the next duty station.

BOWERS HEALEY: And how long were you at, uh, Richard-Gebaur?

RUSSELL: Uh, till I got married in April of 1973. So, about six months.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Uh, that's rather short for a duty station. What happened?

RUSSELL: I got married.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

RUSSELL: I put in a request to be assigned to where Tom was going. And Tom was stationed in Florida by that time. And I have to admit, knowing-- being in Headquarters AFCS assignments, I got my direct duties. I got my assignment to Florida. He was at Eglin, and I was at Field Nine of Eglin. So, it was quick. As soon as I got married, we went back to Richards-Gebaur Air Force Base, had my 00:15:00orders in hand and left within a couple of days.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay, so the-- it sounds like the Air Force was very accommodating, uh, for dual marriage and your situation.

RUSSELL: Yes, oh yes. Mm-hm.

BOWERS HEALEY: Let me ask you, uh, in terms of just the visual right now, can you bring yourself closer so that we have more? There you go. That's great. That looks great. Thank you very much. Um, so, Eglin Air Force Base. Tell me again, what-- where-- what, uh, unit you were assigned to?

RUSSELL: I was assigned to Hurlburt Field 2068 Comm Squad, Communications Squadron. I was-- I worked in the chief of maintenance office as an administrative specialist.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And tell me about your experience at Eglin Air Force Base.

RUSSELL: Uh, it was interesting. I was the only female in the office and my 00:16:00first day there, they proceeded to tell me what all I needed to do, and the very first thing they told me I needed to do was make sure I made coffee when I got into the office.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what did you think about that?

RUSSELL: Oh, I went ahead, and I made it. And then they turned around and told me, don't ever touch the coffee pot again. We'll make our own coffee. Because I made it so weak, they couldn't stand it. [Laughs] Little did they know that I knew how to make coffee, but it was like, not in my duty description was there "make coffee for the guys" so I'd be darned if I was going to make coffee for them. They learned.

BOWERS HEALEY: [Laughs] Okay. Any-- any other things that you remember that stick out about Eglin Air Force Base?

RUSSELL: Um, I slept during a tornado.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

RUSSELL: I was pregnant with our first daughter, Terry. And Tom was working the two to ten shift at Eglin, and I was working eight to 4:30. And I remember coming home, and I was tired, so I fell asleep, and he called me, and he said, "Ginny, are you okay?" And I said, "Tom, the only thing exciting that happened around here was a stupid train went through." And he goes, "Ginny, we don't live by train track. That was the tornado that set down at the trailer park next to us." [Laughs] I went, "Oh, okay." Um, but I worked with a bunch-- a neat-- neat group of guys. They treated me like I was their little sister. And if I went in to work and I was upset, they would ask what happened and if I told them Tom and I had a fight, they'd say, "Oh, where is he? We'll go--" [Laughs] So, they were 00:18:00like big brothers to me. And we-- I remember one tech sergeant, he-- I go up to lunch with my husband and I come back and he'd say, "Well, smile if you got a quickie." And the guys would all look and wait for my answer. And one day I said to him, "John, you're just jealous because you didn't get to go home and get a cookie if-- if your wife was available." [Laughs] He shut up after that. Yeah, I learned how to-- I knew how to put up with them and how to respond back to them. So, I treated them with respect, and they treated me with respect.

BOWERS HEALEY: And, uh, what was your rank at the time while you were in Eglin?

RUSSELL: Uh, sergeant. Yes. Three stripes. And I was at Hurlburt. Tom was at Eglin.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. Hurlburt.

RUSSELL: But Hurlburt is a subbase of Eglin.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And you mentioned that you were pregnant with your first daughter. Uh, when were you pregnant?

RUSSELL: She was born in January of-- oh, good God, January '75, I think she was born, so I was pregnant just '74 to '75. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And I think you mentioned in your intake form that you or somewhere, maybe in your oral-- mini oral, that you wore civilian attire while you were pregnant, is that the case?

RUSSELL: Yes. That's the case because at the time I was pregnant with Terry, they did not have a maternity uniform, so-- and you needed permission to stay in. So, I got the permission to stay in, and then I got to wear civilian maternity clothes. So, that was nice. Expensive but nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Were there any other women, Air Force women at the time that were also pregnant and wearing civilian attire?

RUSSELL: Yes. If there was, they were wearing civilian attire because it wasn't until a couple of years later that they had the military pregnant-- military maternity uniforms. In fact, two years later, when I was pregnant with Chris, I-- they had the military-- yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Um, how long did you stay at Hurlburt?

RUSSELL: '73 to '75. So, Terry was born in January '75 and in April of '75, we were state transferred to RAF Bentwaters in England. And she stayed behind with 00:21:00my parents because dependents couldn't go over to the duty station in England until housing was found. So, we had to get over there, find a house, and then get her back to be with us.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And how did that work out? How did your-- your daughter, uh, travel? Did you go back to get her?

RUSSELL: My parents actually brought her over. That was their one and only chance to get to England. [Laughs] Mm-hm. Uh, so they brought her over and stayed a couple of weeks and did some sightseeing and yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And you may have said this, I'm not sure. Where were you stationed, um, in Britain?

RUSSELL: RAF Bentwaters. It was, like eighty miles south of London. And it doesn't exist anymore. [Laughs]

BOWERS HEALEY: You closed the bases, apparently. [Laughs]

RUSSELL: I did, yes. And I worked-- I worked in the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing 00:22:00for the chief of maintenance, who was in charge of aircraft maintenance, um, ammunition, AMS, FMS, OMS. And I worked in his office. Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you were still an administrative specialist?

RUSSELL: Yes, I was.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Does the Air Force have a designator for that particular military?

RUSSELL: Yeah, it was 70250-B.

BOWERS HEALEY: How long were you at Bentwater?

RUSSELL: Three years. '75 to '78. And we, um, we got to see Queen Elizabeth's 25th official birthday party, the Trooping of the Colors, because I-- the base ran a lottery and I got free tickets, so we got to go there. That was really 00:23:00something to see. Um, we were there during our country's 200th birthday, and the English were furious with us because word came down from way up top that we were not to celebrate because they didn't want to offend the British. And the British were mad because we didn't celebrate, because we Americans knew how to throw a party. [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah. And we went sightseeing and went to England, went to Amsterdam, went to Brussels. Uh, went to Shakespeare's birthplace. Oh, we did a lot of traveling-- sightseeing. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you had at least one child at the time? Um, how was childcare 00:24:00set up or what did you do for childcare?

RUSSELL: Childcare, we had a neighbor who took care of Terry. Um, Major Sam's wife. No, not Major Sam. It was Darlene Middlestead. Her-- she took care of Terry, and they had five children. And she took in Terry and she and her hubby and Tom and I would exchange babysitters on three-day weekends so each one of us could take a tour somewhere, a trip overseas or wherever we wanted to go. And the other couple babysat for the kids.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Being in England, how did you get around to, um, other countries or even in Britain?

RUSSELL: We took-- there was actually a tour guide, a tour company that we went through, um, and went on our tours there to Shakespeare's birthplace, Amsterdam 00:25:00to Brussels. So, whenever we were going to go on a tour, we went through that tour company.

BOWERS HEALEY: I see. And were you and your husband stationed at the same, uh, installation?

RUSSELL: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

RUSSELL: Yeah, we were. He was stationed in aircraft maintenance in 81st OMS, and I was an 81st Tactical Fighter Wing Headquarters as-- for the chief of maintenance.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right, so by the time your tour of duty ended there, uh, in 1978, you had been in the military for six years?

RUSSELL: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Had you re-enlisted by that time or not?

RUSSELL: Yes, yes. We had. Mm-hm.

BOWERS HEALEY: And what were-- what-- at that time, about six years in, what were you and your husband thinking about in terms of how long you would stay in 00:26:00the Air Force?

RUSSELL: We were going to do twenty.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

RUSSELL: Mm-hm. Yeah. We were going to do twenty years.

BOWERS HEALEY: And when you left, uh, Great Britain, where did you go then?

RUSSELL: Back to Lackland. Um, every female coming back from overseas was volunteered by the Air Force to become a training instructor for basic training. So, I went back to be a drill-- a tech-- a training instructor or a drill instructor, as they're called by the Army.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Uh, did you have training for that before you--?

RUSSELL: Yes. We had training for that. We went back and we had a couple months of training, and then we went to our assigned training squadron, and we had 00:27:00somebody break us in, mentor us. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And was that training at Lackland also?

RUSSELL: Yes, it was.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. It doesn't sound like you were really enthusiastic about being a trainer. [Laughs]

RUSSELL: [Laughs] I wasn't. I really wasn't, but I did my best. I mean, I wasn't going to screw up or anything. I did my best. Um. And--

BOWERS HEALEY: What was your rank when you started? Um.

RUSSELL: Staff sergeant. We got promoted while we were stationed in England.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. How about you and your husband? And staff sergeant equates to what pay grade?

RUSSELL: E-5.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And, uh, when you went back to Lackland, where did-- where was your quarters, where did you-- you and your husband live?

RUSSELL: We bought a house in Converse, Texas, which was halfway between 00:28:00Randolph Air Force Base, where he was stationed, and Lackland, where I was stationed. So. Yeah. Yeah, it was quite interesting.

BOWERS HEALEY: Why do you say it was quite interesting?

RUSSELL: Uh, you know, they don't know how to drive when it's icy out? [Both laugh] And it's quite hilarious having to travel forty miles to your base on an icy highway and they don't know how to drive. It's like, oh my God, people! It's-- [laughs] you can do more than twenty miles an hour on this highway. [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Were there any memorable people, uh, while you were at Lackland or, um--

RUSSELL: Oh, gosh. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Memories?

RUSSELL: Gosh. Yes. Um, there was Bruce Maxwell. He's-- he was a training 00:29:00instructor, and um--

BOWERS HEALEY: Why was he-- why was he memorable?

RUSSELL: Oh, because we were partners at one time. And um, I didn't think he'd make it, but he retired as a chief master sergeant, which really surprised me. Um, and he turned out to be pretty good, which I thought, wow, that's pretty good. Never judge a book by its cover. [Laughs] Give him a chance. Then there was Mike Timmerman. He and I were teammates. He was the team leader, and I was his teammate. And, um, he taught me pretty good. He was a very good instructor. Um, gosh, Sarge-- Chief Master Sergeant Barnes, who was the, uh, superintendent. He was-- he was very fair in his treatment of all of us. Um, and then there 00:30:00was-- I can't remember who my other supervisor was, but yeah, they were all quite memorable. And my trainees too, um, I caught up with a couple on Facebook of those who I trained, and in fact, one even retired as a lieutenant colonel and invited me to his retirement party.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, you said he, so, you were training co-ed at that time.

RUSSELL: Right. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, that was a change from when you started, I take it.

RUSSELL: Right. Yes. Yes. Because females trained females, males and trained males. But by the time I got back to Lackland, females were training males and females. Yeah. Mm-hm.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And uh, any particular incidents that you recall during the training?

RUSSELL: [Laughs] Oh my gosh. Yes. I got called at six o'clock on a Sunday morning from the person on duty, say that my flight was refusing to follow orders. It was not going to go to KP duty. They were refusing and they wanted to go to church instead. So, I had to get up, get into my uniform and go into base and chew some butts out. [Laughs] Um. There was a time-- oh, God. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And did they do KP or did they go to church?

RUSSELL: They went to KP. Believe me, they went to KP. Um, I had one trainee. They were-- he was from New York. He got base pass. And I remember telling them on Friday before I left, I said, "Okay, you guys from New York, you're not used to this hot, humid weather in July in Texas. Whatever you do, when you go to the 00:32:00pool, do not stay out in the sun that long." Well, Monday morning at Reveille, all of a sudden, I heard a big flop. This trainee had passed out because he went to the pool, laid down and fell asleep and nobody woke him up in time. And this poor kid was so burned from the top of his head to the bottom of his toes that he actually got set back in training because it was so bad he couldn't wear his uniforms. Yeah, I remember that so well. And remember they all got upset because he was set back and I said, "Guys, he destroyed government property. Once you sign your name on that dotted line, you're government property." He's lucky he didn't get court martialed. Um.

BOWERS HEALEY: Did he get any penalty other than being sent back a flight?

RUSSELL: He just got set back. That's all. Yeah. And, gosh, I trained a couple-- I had some female flights, and one of them actually came up with a song. Sergeant Guerrera and I were teammates, and they actually came up with a song to the tune of The Brady Bunch.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

RUSSELL: That they would sing while marching about Sergeant Guerrera and Sergeant Russell having a female flight together. It was-- and I still have it. I have it in my scrapbook. Yeah. It was pretty interesting. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: All righty. Uh, what was the attrition rate like? If-- I don't know if you knew or kept track or if you were told that so many had to graduate from each class?

RUSSELL: We weren't told. No.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Was there some attrition?

RUSSELL: Yeah, there was. Um, I had a male trainee who-- he didn't like people 00:34:00yelling at him, and he came into my office one time and was crying because we yelled too much. And he wanted to talk to his mommy. Well, [laughs] I told him to go talk to his mommy. He called his mommy crying that Sergeant Russell was yelling too much. She called her congressman. The congressman got him out of-- out of the Air Force. [Laughs] It was like, oh, thank God, we don't need somebody who needs mommy's permission to do everything. [Laughs] And um, had a female trainee that I actually felt sorry for her because of the fact that she was mentally ill and how she got in, I don't know, but we had to get her out and 00:35:00get her treated, get some treatment for her because she was actually pulling her hair out by the roots. That's how sick she was and how she got in, I don't know. But yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: As you were there as a trainee, um, and worked through several groups, you call them flights, is that it?

RUSSELL: Yes. We call them flights. Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. How long were you a trainer and drill instructor?

RUSSELL: Um. I was a training instructor until I got pregnant with Chris. Um, Tom decided he wanted to get out of the Air Force because they weren't going to let him do what he wanted to do. Um, so I decided I was going to get out, and I did some research and learned that if I got pregnant and got out because of the 00:36:00pregnancy, the Air Force would still pay for all the medical bills. So, I got pregnant with Chris and got out in April. He was born in May. I got out in the end of April of '78. Of '80. Of '80. And so, I was a training instructor for about a year and a half, and then the last six months I worked in, um, the orderly room as a secretary. And I had a maternity Air Force uniform at that time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Uh, what did you think of the maternity uniforms?

RUSSELL: I liked it. It was nice. Yeah, it was really great. Didn't have to go out and buy civilian clothes. They didn't have to decide what I was going to wear in the morning. I could just put my uniform on and go to work.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, you got-- you and your husband, did you both get out at about 00:37:00the same time or not?

RUSSELL: No. He got out before I did and went-- and became a over-the-road truck driver, and I got out, uh, about six months later. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And, uh, you got out before you had your second child?

RUSSELL: Yes, I got out in the end of April, and I had Chris the end of May. Right.

BOWERS HEALEY: And were you correct that the military picked up the bill for--

RUSSELL: Yes. Uh-huh, I think it cost me like two dollars all total for what they didn't cover.

BOWERS HEALEY: And where was your second child born?

RUSSELL: Uh, Wilford Hall Air Force-- Wilford Hall Medical Center in-- at Lackland.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. So, you stayed at Lackland. Even though you were out, you stayed there. Okay. That's interesting.

RUSSELL: We-- then we moved to Green Bay after all that.

BOWERS HEALEY: All right. And where was your husband from originally?

RUSSELL: Arizona.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, he was okay with going to Wisconsin with cheeseheads? [Laughs] And cold.

RUSSELL: Yes. He was. He was okay with it because, um-- He, um, my grandson didn't know his grandfather was from Arizona. [Laughs] And he's in the background just laughing. He, um. He was okay with it because he liked the cold weather and he-- him and his family weren't getting along too well, so it was fine with him if we moved to Wisconsin.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And, uh, you moved back to Green Bay. Um. Where did you decide to live in Green Bay? Did you live with your parents for a while or not?

RUSSELL: Yes, we did. We lived with our parents for a while, and then we bought a house over by Southwest High School and settled there. And Tom was a truck driver, and he worked for Packerland Trucking and then what was then Fort Howard, which is now Fort James, I think. And I went back to school, to college, and on the G.I. Bill and got my degree in accounting. And I graduated from UW-GB. Then I worked-- went to work for the federal government for twenty-six years.

BOWERS HEALEY: Oh, okay. So, um, your entire college was paid for by the G.I. Bill?

RUSSELL: Yes. I used the federal G.I. Bill, and then I also used the State of Wisconsin G.I. Bill to reimburse me for my books and everything. So, yeah, it 00:40:00was pretty nice.

BOWERS HEALEY: Great. And you worked for the government after that? Um--

RUSSELL: Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: What-- what part of the government did you work for?

RUSSELL: The IRS.

BOWERS HEALEY: [Laughs] Okay.

ISAIAH LOPEZ: Everybody hates you.

RUSSELL: I audited tax returns. [Laughs]

ISAIAH LOPEZ: Somebody's gotta do it.

RUSSELL: In the Green Bay office. I was-- I was at the Green Bay office the entire time.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. Now, you also said, uh, in your intake, you wish you had stayed in the military? Why?

RUSSELL: Yes. I just-- I miss it. I miss the camaraderie. I miss the guys. I miss the girls. We-- we had-- there was something between us, the social interaction, teasing each other, you know, and-- but I still get together with veteran friends. But it's just twenty years, I just wish I had done it for 00:41:00twenty like I had planned, but oh well. Twenty-- hindsight's 20-20. But yeah, there was just something special about veterans.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, you kind of indicated that you kept in touch with veterans. Um, uh, what type of contacts do you have in the Green Bay area?

RUSSELL: Um, American Legion. I'm the Brown County commander. I'm the District Nine historian. Um, in fact, I'm supposed to be going to National Convention next week, but due to my hip problem, I can't go. Um, I'm in the AmVets, American Veterans organization. I'm in the DAV, or the DVA, whatever it is. Um, I meet with veteran friends on Tuesday mornings for coffee at one of the local restaurants, and we give each other a hard time.

BOWERS HEALEY: How did that group start? Or how'd you get to know them?

RUSSELL: University-- uh, the Festival store on University Avenue, um, on Friday mornings has a, um, coffee and free donuts for all veterans. They have a veteran's cafe. We all met up there and then when the virus, COVID came, we-- they stopped it. And then eventually, we all decided once we could start going back out, a group of us decided we were going to meet on Tuesday mornings at a restaurant and have coffee and just continue being friends and everything, and, um. And it's gone on for, God, forever. We've-- we even went to the Wall That Heals up in Crivitz. We planned a trip, and we went there. We're planning a trip to the Highgrounds in Neillsville. Um, yeah. So, we've been friends for almost 00:43:00ten years now.

BOWERS HEALEY: So, I didn't quite catch it. What did you do in Crivitz? What's there?

RUSSELL: A Wall That Heals, the replica of the Vietnam Memorial.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay.

RUSSELL: All the names. Came with the-- it was there for a week, I believe it was, and we went there. A group of us. Um. Oh, they went to Door County too. I didn't get to go that trip, but they've gone to Door County. And now they're planning-- we're planning another trip up to the Highgrounds, so yeah, we've been friends for about ten years, if not longer.

BOWERS HEALEY: Right. How did you hear about the Veterans Museum Oral History Program, and why did you decide to do this oral history?

RUSSELL: I heard about it through the I Am Not Invisible program. I went to the one in Manitowoc and had my picture taken and I believe there was somebody 00:44:00there, and we did a mini-interview and they asked if I would and I said sure. And I had other female friends who have been interviewed. Um, Anita Powers and a couple other ladies who have been interviewed by you all, and they said go for it.

BOWERS HEALEY: Very good. Okay, um, I think I've asked you about all the questions I have, but I do want to ask, is there anything else that you would like to add or something that we might have left out?

RUSSELL: Well, the guys like to tease me about the fact when I was stationed at Richards-Gebaur Air Force Base in Missouri, the boss came up to me and said, "Ginny, we have an opening for an administrative specialist in Germany at the American Embassy. Do you want to go?" And I said, "Sure, I'll go." And they 00:45:00said, he said, "But Tom can't go because there's no Air Force in Germany." And I said, "Never mind, forget it. I'll stay home. I'll stay here." So, every now and then the guys will say, "Ginny, you should have gone to Germany." And I go, "Oh, shut up." [Both laughs] Oh, yeah. So, it was-- and I tell kids who are thinking about going into the military, I go, guys, go for it. Go for it. And if you love it as much as I did, stay twenty. Don't get out just because, you know, I keep thinking I wish I had done twenty. I should have said to Tom, "You be my dependent and I'll stay in." But like my mom said, hindsight's 20-20.

BOWERS HEALEY: Where do you think your husband would have said had you suggested that?

RUSSELL: I don't know. [Bowers Healey laughs] I honest to God don't know.

BOWERS HEALEY: Now, you've indicated that you have, uh, two children or do you 00:46:00have more than two?

RUSSELL: Three.

BOWERS HEALEY: Three children?

RUSSELL: I have three. Yeah, I have two girls and a boy.

BOWERS HEALEY: And you have grandchildren?

RUSSELL: Nine.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And, uh, because I heard him during this interview, who's the grandson that's there right now?

RUSSELL: Uh, I have two grandsons living with me, Isaiah who's nineteen, and Christian, his brother, who's twenty-two. Right. Yes. And their two sisters are back in Arizona living. They have a twenty-one-year-old sister and a three year old sister. [Laughs] Uh, then I have Terry has three children, and Chris has two. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: And the grandson who is with you right now, is his last name the same as yours?

RUSSELL: No, his is Lopez.

BOWERS HEALEY: Lopez. All right. And that's Isaiah Lopez?

RUSSELL: That's Isaiah Lopez. And then Christian, his brother, lives with me. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. And then uh, administratively, how would you like to receive a copy of this? Dropbox or DVD or--

RUSSELL: DVD. Oh, we have a DVD player. Yes.

BOWERS HEALEY: Okay. All right. Well, um, I appreciate you talking to us, and I thank you for doing this oral history as well as your-- your service for eight years in the Air Force.

RUSSELL: Well, thank you for doing this. Thank you so much for doing this. This has been a memory trip. Yeah.

BOWERS HEALEY: Yeah.

RUSSELL: Good memories.