Oral History Interview with Todd Hartwig

BROOKS: Today is Friday May 1, 2015. This is an interview with Todd Hartwig who served with the Army from August 1985 to May 2014. The interview is being conducted at the Madison Central Public Library, the interviewer is Ellen Brooks and the interview is being recorded for the Wisconsin Veterans Museum Oral History Program. So we'll just start from the beginning, if you could tell me where and when you were born.

HARTWIG: Okay. I was born in Osage, Iowa back in 1966. I grew up in--most of my life I grew up in Northwood, Iowa. Which is a community of about 4000 people. Both parents are still married. It was kind of a rural community, farm community. And after high school there wasn't really much to stick around for so I joined the military. When I was in high school, delayed entry program and then 00:01:00I was in the army at eighteen so--

BROOKS: What did you parents do?

HARTWIG: My mom was the cook for the school and my dad was transportation supervisor for the school so it's pretty--not a whole lot of jobs there so most people graduated and they moved away. So I just joined the army 'cause I didn't know what I wanted to do.

BROOKS: Did you have any siblings?

HARTWIG: I have a younger sister and an older brother, so I was the middle child. And I joined the army. I went to Fort Dix, New Jersey for basic training and then I went to Fort Eustis [Virginia] for my occupation specialty. CH47 Chinooks. I was a crew chief or first mechanic and then you work your way to crew chief. I loved that job, dangerous but [laughs]--then I was stationed at 00:02:00Fort Bragg, North Carolina. For four years.

BROOKS: Tell me a little about your induction and you initial reaction to starting a career in the Army.

HARTWIG: Experience of being away from home because really I hadn't been away from home before. It was kinda scary at first. Kinda neat to be on your own for the first time.

BROOKS: Did you have any family members who had also been in the service?

HARTWIG: My brother was in the National Guard and Army too also. He actually did the Chinook thing after I did. He was in for six or eight years. Then he got out and moved to Wisconsin, raised his family, took a civilian job, and I stayed in. 00:03:00Off and on, I was active in National Guard.

BROOKS: When you joined up what unit did you join up with?

HARTWIG: 118th Air Cav. It changed, it was the 196th Aviation Company and there was a lotta changes in structure in the Army at that time. There was a lot of change in the units.

BROOKS: Okay. Tell me a little bit about basic training. How was that for you?

HARTWIG: My bus ride was probably the most memorable, going there. It was around New York so I'd never been in big cities so it was kinda freaking me out. There was someone that got rolled in the bathroom that I didn't even know, I was in there too. I got on the bus and everybody was talking about it and I didn't even 00:04:00know what was going on [laughs]. Then there was long haired hippy--I call 'em hippy-- guys acting all tough and stuff. And I just sat in the bus and was all quiet till we got to the drill sergeants. [laughs] Got off the bus and those were the first ones cryin'. That was funny. I remember laughing 'cause the guy was calling me a pig farmer [laughs]. And I kept laughing so he kept yelling at me. It was alright. You learn your basic stuff - weapons, firing weapons, lot of runnin', lot of pushups. Graduated and went to AIT. Thought you were done with drill sergeants. First thing that happened when you got there, more drill sergeants.

BROOKS: And what is that, AIT? Advanced--

HARTWIG: Advanced Instructor Training. I think. I don't remember anymore. Sometimes--I got TBI from the explosion so I get things messed around sometimes. Dates, times.

BROOKS: Acronyms are tricky. I feel like with the acronyms there's always one word in the acronym that I can't remember. So you went to AIT after basic and what was that like?

HARTWIG: That's where you--it was pretty technical, I mean, I took the general stuff in high school and most of my classes were art, 'cause I loved arts so I had a lotta art. And I didn't take, like, advanced geometry and calculus and all that stuff. When I got there then a lot of the aviation it's all trigonometry and all that so I kinda struggled the first couple of weeks but I got probably 00:06:00top two percent of the class by the time I was done, so. And then from there I went to Fort Bragg and that's where you actually do the job. I love flying. That was fun.

BROOKS: What was your first assignment?

HARTWIG: Well it was repair. You start out as a repairer. The first one we replaced a forty foot rotor blade. Pretty big. Drive shafts, things like that. Pulling engines. It's like a lot of responsibility for just being that young. You always had someone older with you, you know, you need for whatever, to kinda guide you, keep you on the right track. Then you had technical inspectors that 00:07:00inspected all your work and if it wasn't done right he'd make you re-do it.

BROOKS: Did that happen to you often?

HARTWIG: No. [laughs] Later on I was an inspector, rotary wing inspector. That was further years down the road.

BROOKS: How long did you spend doing the repairs?

HARTWIG: First three years. Three years was my first hitch [??]. Then I got out and joined the 94th Cav unit out of Waterloo, Iowa. Went straight there and--different helicopters. We had Hueys, [Bell] OH58s [Kiowa] and we got [Bell AH-1] Cobras. And I went to school for every different aircraft. I went to school for every one of them. Then I went to armament school - missile system 00:08:00armor, repair and then I went to technical inspector course after that. Then I was a rotary wing inspector. Inspected everybody's maintenance. That's a lot of responsibility. I did that in pretty short time frame. I was one of the earliest D6s.

BROOKS: Wow. How long did it take?

HARTWIG: I think I was twenty-two when I got my staff sergeant. Then I kept it for years because I was limited on the MOS. It'd only let you go so high in the slot you were in.

BROOKS: So at what point did you think that you wanted to stay in? Most people sign up for a certain amount of time, right, and then they get out or--

HARTWIG: At about thirteen years. You're already over the hump [laughs] so you 00:09:00don't want to throw it away.

BROOKS: And before that? What made you stick with it?

HARTWIG: Camaraderie. Love for the country, pretty much. Duty. Honor. Everything that goes, all wrapped up into one. Responsibility. I liked the job. Thought it was my way to go [laughs] so I stuck with it. I've had ten or twelve different MOSs. I got around. I was in school probably half my military career.

BROOKS: Was that by choice or was that based on where you were needed?

HARTWIG: Most of it was by choice. I didn't stay in one thing because you get bored doing the same thing. Lot of it was because of positions. I was trying to 00:10:00get the full-time aviation inspector in Waterloo. That's why I went there. Then the Gramm Rudman Act [Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Balanced Budget Act]--I was the only one in the state of Iowa qualified for the job. They spent a quarter of a million dollars sending me to school. Gramm Rudman Act cut--couldn't hire anybody that wasn't currently on the floor so they had to put an unqualified person on the floor.

BROOKS: When was that?

HARTWIG: Around '95, '96. Somewhere in there. I can't quite remember.

BROOKS: They sent you to school for this position and then--

HARTWIG: Yeah it was--the first school was five months long and the second one was seven or eight months. Every day. Teaching you the job.

BROOKS: Did you have an end goal in mind or were you just looking for a good fit--

HARTWIG: To get that full time job. I guess that didn't happen so then I--I was at about almost thirteen years at that time and I said, "I'm done." Did all this, I was promised a job. Didn't happen. Then I said, "I'm done." I took about a year in the inactive time there. Then I said, "Well, I can't throw it away," so then I joined the unit in Eau Claire. And I was the POL sergeant and so I had to go back to school for pipeline operation specialist. I went to school for that. Then I was in charge of the whole petroleum, all the missions. Did that for four or five years. At that time I was in an E8 slot, so I could get 00:12:00promoted. I don't know there was budget cuts and shift and we went from mechanized infantry down to light infantry so then that restructured how high you could go in rank in each position. And I switched over to Intelligence [laughs]. Because that was an E8 slot too but it wasn't six months after I switched over, they cut that down to an E6 slot, so I couldn't get promoted. I did that job for--I was an analyst for enemy side.

BROOKS: What does that entail?

HARTWIG: Studying what the enemy's doing. Courses of action. Then you brief the commander and he determines his war plan off of your assessment of what the 00:13:00enemy is going to do, pretty much. That's it; tracking the enemy side of it. One's S2, one's S3. S3 is tracking the friendly side, what we're doing on a battlefield. I was tracking the enemy side. They you just brief the commander and he makes his decisions from your brief. [laughs] So it's a lot of responsibility again. And I liked that job too. But I was limited and I wanted to get promoted. I was probably at fourteen, fifteen years on.

BROOKS: And how did you end up in Eau Claire?

HARTWIG: I got married to--[laughs]. That's a story too. My buddy from Fort Bragg, his dad was chief of police in Eau Claire and he had an extra place there so--and my buddy lived in Milwaukee so we'd meet at his dad's place and party on 00:14:00Water Street.

BROOKS: Nice.

HARTWIG: That's where I ran into my first wife.

BROOKS: And she was from there so that's where you ended up living?

HARTWIG: Yes. That's how I met my first wife. Let's see, where were we at?

BROOKS: You're doing the Intelligence.

HARTWIG: They cut the rank structure and that too so then they told me I had to go down to a line unit, an infantry line unit, to pick up a platoon sergeant slot so I could get promoted. So I could get my E7. I went down to the line unit and then I had to go to basic infantry course. So I went to that. And I graduated there, come home and about three months later I got orders for take a platoon to Iraq.

BROOKS: When was that?

HARTWIG: That was in 2000--well we had to do training at Fort Bliss--not Fort Bliss but--I can't remember. Down in Mississippi. It was hot.

BROOKS: That stuck with you [laughs].

HARTWIG: Six months of training before we went over and that was worse than Iraq. I can't remember the name right now.

BROOKS: That's okay. We can look it up. So you had never been deployed outside of the United States?

HARTWIG: Nope, the first time - the first Gulf War - I was in aviation school at that time. Otherwise I would have been going.

BROOKS: Any of the smaller conflicts during the nineties?

HARTWIG: Honduras, I was on the docket to go there. But I was ninety or one hundred and twenty days, I can't remember if it was ninety or one hundred and twenty days within your ETS window which is--meaning you haven't re-enlisted 00:16:00yet. You're one hundred and twenty days till your final date of discharge. I was within that window and I hadn't re-enlisted and they wouldn't let me go. So Sergeant McConnell took my spot. Went to Honduras, their second day the aircraft blew up. They were hauling Special Forces and evidently the pyro went off and they were all killed. Shoulda been me.

BROOKS: Any other close calls in terms of almost getting deployed?

HARTWIG: Oh, yeah. Close calls all the time.

BROOKS: Okay, I know we'll get there but--

HARTWIG: Lots of close calls in aviation, I mean, crashes and things like that. 00:17:00I never was in a serious crash. Should have been but--I seen rotor blades this far from looking out the bubble in a Chinook. I had 198 Howitzer almost go through the floor. Rounds going off. Hauling a dummy round in your litter bag below the helicopter coulda exploded. Three of the straps broke on a gun, swinging like this [laughs], aircrafts doing this. We used to do para drops and that's where the parachutists are in the helicopter and you'd go and they'd have a static line and normally I never hooked up to it because I stayed in the plane but you were supposed to hook up to it and that day for some reason I hooked up to it. All the parachutists jumped out and an aircraft cut in front of our 00:18:00aircraft while the procedure--it was a Chinook so it's got a big, wide ten foot door in the back. I hadn't closed the door yet because they'd just--last one was just flying out the aircraft, emergency procedure when one cuts in front, you go straight up. Well, we went straight up and I went straight out the door and I'm hanging outside the aircraft. Took me about a couple of minutes and then my mic come unplugged 'cause I couldn't talk the pilots and they're just carrying on like everything's normal. The pilot behind me is yelling at 'em, "He's hanging out the back." I climbed back up in, hooked up and started talking to them. It was all funny but that day for some reason I hooked up.

BROOKS: And had you not--

HARTWIG: I woulda been dead. Lot of close calls.

BROOKS: What was your feeling, and kind of the feelings of folks around you, 00:19:00after September eleventh?

HARTWIG: I remember the day exactly. I was actually at my civilian job at that time. 'Cause I was in a Guard unit. They were sending me to go on a urine analysis test 'cause in my job I was a diesel technician so in that field you have to be randomly tested two or three times a year, I can't remember what it was. I'd come up, so I was on my way there when they run into the towers. I just couldn't believe it. So then it wasn't too much longer after that we kinda had orders - stand-by orders - that our unit was going. Then it just progressed from there. The training down in--I'll remember before we go--see that's my TBI 00:20:00kicking in 'cause I can't remember names sometimes. That's kinda bugging me too.

BROOKS: We can look it up.

HARTWIG: Camp Shelby, Mississippi.

BROOKS: There you go. Well done. Do you remember how you felt, just the reaction?

HARTWIG: Mad. Mad that everything went wrong. It should have been--there were signs and everyone shoulda prevented it. That's part of why I do my artwork too. The towers, that's--we'll talk about that I'm sure. The reasoning behind me making the towers. I guess--

BROOKS: So tell me about training at Camp Shelby. Now that we know the name.

HARTWIG: It was very, very hot. It was like July and August is like unbearable. 00:21:00We were in full combat load like sixty, eighty pounds on your back and you're doing battle drills. Run, drop, roll. People are just passing out, left and right. I mean, [laughs] doing IVs all day long. Just to stay alive. Just to go through the training. It's crazy. But it's amazing what your body can take and how much you can do when you have to. It was good training. When we got over there it was hot, yes, and you still had to worry about dehydration but it was nothing like Camp Shelby.

BROOKS: So you were a platoon sergeant?

HARTWIG: Yes.

BROOKS: With 128th Infantry at this point?

Harwig: Yes.

BROOKS: When you started training at Camp Shelby were you with a platoon you had known already?

HARTWIG: I was in Alpha Company, I transferred from H8C 'cause I was in Intelligence there and there I was round the commander and all the big wigs, chiefs, all the time. So I was in the same unit there that I did my POL section so I knew everybody, everybody knew me. Then I went to Alpha Company and a few of the men that was in H8C--the kind of internal shuffle between Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta. You kinda know a few people wherever you go. I was probably there - I'm guessing, I'm not quite sure - four or six months before I had to go to 10 level school so I got to know them, train with them before--probably about four to six months is my guess. Then I went to ten level, came back. We get 00:23:00people from the 127. After Shelby we got all mixed up anyway, so you got new guys, but you had to relearn everybody. Probably half of your platoon was from that unit. But you bond very quickly [laughs]. Your lives depend on each other. You're just like a family.

BROOKS: Can you tell me about some of the guys in your platoon?

HARTWIG: Sure.

BROOKS: Maybe ladies. I don't know, did you have--was it coed?

HARTWIG: I could probably tell you about every one of them.

BROOKS: How many?

HARTWIG: Forty. Forty of 'em. And then the lieutenant. I'll save some for him. He was straight out of boot camp so I had to take him under my wing. He was more 00:24:00to keep control of, an eye out for, than my youngest E1.

BROOKS: This is the lieutenant?

HARTWIG: Yes.

BROOKS: Oh wow.

HARTWIG: Yeah.

BROOKS: Just a little too fresh?

HARTWIG: He was fresh boots. Very fresh. He was always gung-ho and it wasn't good. Now lost track of thought.

BROOKS: Just talking about different people in your platoon.

HARTWIG: Sergeant G. He was staff sergeant too. First squad leader. He lives in St. Paul now. Very brave. Lotta guts. [Pause] It's hard to talk about him.

BROOKS: How long did you know him?

HARTWIG: Just that year. [pause] Sorry.

BROOKS: That's okay

HARTWIG: It's just a lot of memories coming back.

BROOKS: I've got tissue if you need.

HARTWIG: No, it's alright.

BROOKS: How did you meet him? Do you remember when you first met him?

HARTWIG: Through the Army. He come to the unit probably knew him one drill before I left to go to basic for 10 level, for infantry. He was in infantry pretty much all his career. Knew a lot of stuff. I don't know, he was an honest 00:26:00guy. He was a hoarder. If you needed anything, he had it. [laughs].

BROOKS: He was the go-to guy for--

HARTWIG: Yeah, good guy. Sniper was shooting at me one day, and I was training some Iraqi soldiers and they were all hitting the ground and I'm standing up, yelling at them "You get up, fight." You gotta train 'em. You gotta put the guts in them. So the sniper's just shooting at me and bullets are going all around me and Sergeant G goes, "I'm running toward him, pick him off." He'd run straight toward the shooter and that was what I said, brave. Probably the same as I was. 00:27:00He says, "When they're shooting at me--" that's what you do, you run toward them and they shoots at him then you can pick them off.

BROOKS: Did someone manage to?

HARTWIG: .50 cal guy got him.

BROOKS: Not everybody will run at bullets flying at them.

HARTWIG: That was one of our hand to hand combat we were in that day. We were only in like three hand to hand, all out battles, 'cause they were too scared to touch us 'cause they'd die and they knew it.

BROOKS: How long were you training there in Mississippi.

HARTWIG: We trained there for six months. Then we went over in 2004, November 2004.

BROOKS: When you went over did you feel like you were ready? How were you feeling?

HARTWIG: Ready? Yeah. I guess. Scared. You don't know what you're going in to. You've always drilled and it's different, completely different than any training you can go through. When you find out who people are real quickly. You got people that are always rough and tough, you get in the heat of battle and there they're--you don't want them around you, put it that way. You know who to be around. Who's going to have your back. Things like that.

BROOKS: How did you get over there?

HARTWIG: We flew into Kuwait. Left Camp Douglas actually in Volk Field [Wisconsin]. Flew out of there, went to Kuwait first for two weeks. We were the unit that was make-shifting armor so we could cross the desert. That was our 00:29:00unit. There was bunch of stories about that, that was us. 'Cause we didn't have any armor.

BROOKS: So what did you put together?

HARTWIG: Just weld panels on doors and things like that.

BROOKS: What was the reason behind you not having armor? Or was there one?

HARTWIG: Funding probably. I don't know. I suppose funding and they were running out. I mean, you can only supply so many bullets in a short amount of time. I guess they were in their lull [laughs]. Plus, we weren't ready for it. Didn't have near the equipment that should have been there. But you gotta do what you gotta do. So we crossed--did a convoy about a third of them crossed the desert 00:30:00and the rest flew. I was on the flying side of it so I didn't have to cross. Then we were in Iraq.

BROOKS: What was your first impressions when you got there?

HARTWIG: I was figuring it was going to be all desert and stuff. It's more like--there was canals everywhere, everything was green, swamp grass everywhere. Mosquitos. Bugs. Little digger bugs they'd dig in you until their feet were sticking out. Oh, they were nasty. Worse than sand jiggers. Dirty. Stunk. Burnt garbage, all the time. I remember the town that--our FOB was north of Baghdad 00:31:00about fifteen miles called Death Triangle. Three worst roads in Iraq that was our AO. We were on a remote FOB just south of [LSA] Anaconda which is a big--they got movie theatre and McDonald's. We were out, no lights. They didn't even know we even existed and we weren't 200 feet off the road. Our job was to protect the south side of Anaconda and Saddam's town he pillaged. He killed all the wives husbands. That was our town. Lot of bad guys. We probably--they say 00:32:00two and a half tons of bombs we recovered. Kicking doors down and looking for bad guys. Road bombs. That was our job - locate the road bombs before the convoys, you know, 'cause convoys are constantly running into Anaconda with supplies because that's a major supply hub. They'd be attacking them all the time.

BROOKS: So how do you locate the road bomb?

HARTWIG: Patrols drive around 'til one blows up or you find them. Look for the bad guys. Do night operations, hide out by the roads, watch them for digging. They had curfews too, rule, no nighttime--anybody's out there it's AIF. Anti-Iraqi Forces. So if they had a shovel or anything, digging, then you'd shoot them.

BROOKS: So you got there, set up camp I'm assuming, just outside of Anaconda.

HARTWIG: Yep, FOB O'Ryan is what they called it.

BROOKS: That was the name of your camp?

HARTWIG: Yup.

BROOKS: Does FOB stand for something?

HARTWIG: Forward operation base. That's where we were based out of, that's out home. So to speak. All operations stem from there, that's our safe zone. Had cement all the way round it, you know, gate guards in all the towers. Our first day I remember we got there and--I'll call them AIF because it's long. AIF would always test the new unit coming in [laughs]. We're infantry combat unit and we 00:34:00were well trained, we were a very good unit. We got to the FOB and of course none of the procedures are set up because it's not our FOB yet because we gotta do a takeover of the FOB from the other unit. It was a National Guard unit outta New York that was in charge of the FOB. We just were getting in the gate and of course we got mortared [laughs]. Every unit did their combat [snaps]--we were out that gate and it was nothing but--there was nothing left, put it that way. It was an overkill big time, I mean, everything was just laid out and we got back and we had an after action review battle. The commander he goes, "Well, one thing, it was just a little overkill guys. Nice reaction time," he goes, "but it 00:35:00was a little overkill. One gun unit would have been sufficient." Instead of twenty some. But he says "We set a precedent, I don't think they'll be attacking our FOB again."

We never did. The whole time there we were mortared one stray mortar come in up at the mortar wall. There was the same reaction - one team took care of the whole thing and after that, nothing. The whole year we were there. We had to get to where we had thirty-nine victor was our number on our gun trucks. We'd roll through they'd try to hit us with IEDs but they would never do a hand-to-hand combat, try to start anything because they knew thirty-nine, you're dead. That's just the way we roll. But IEDs all the time. They probably disarmed--my platoon 00:36:00probably 200 at least and the one day we were up to nine road bombs we disarmed that day. That's a lot, because each one takes about two hours to clear.

BROOKS: How did you disarm them?

HARTWIG: You pick up--usually you're on QRF - Quick Reaction Force - and that's the unit that respond to any emergencies. Like if a convoy gets attacked they're the ones that go out or if someone's mortaring the FOB they're the ones that go out. Disabled vehicles, they're the ones that go get motor pool and escort them out and retrieve vehicles. You had to be out the gate in a--it was three minute time frame, get in full battle dress and getting all the way across the FOB and 00:37:00out the gate in three minutes. Our average was about twenty-three seconds, the whole year. That's pretty awesome.

BROOKS: That's impressive. How do you--is it different with every IED, how you disarm it?

HARTWIG: Yes. Every situation's different. When we first got there they were on--they were taking the twist alarm things and setting them, when the timer went off, it went off. When we first got there they were using, they had a triggerman is what they called him, hide off the side of the road underneath these grape vines and we had all the gear on so we couldn't follow them underneath and so they knew that. It was all wire for grapes, so they'd hide in there. And they'd have wires run to the bomb and they had copper plates, two 00:38:00wooden panels and as soon as you got over the bomb they'd slap the paddles together make contact, blowin' you up. It went from that to cell phones, it got really dangerous because they could sit off the road, two miles and blow you up. At one time they were on the handheld little walkie talkies; soon as you click it to talk to someone [snaps], detonate the bomb. They'd bury them in the roads trying to target convoys and U.S. vehicles. RPGs. We were stopped on a road and I had just rolled down my window and so did--my driver, had his window down and I'd just rolled down my window and the RPG went right out through the vehicle. 00:39:00It was weird.

Lot of cool stories like that. Lot of it was IEDs. IEDs going up and picking up you name it. Vehicle or--the worst was when they hit the front gate, vehicle bomb. I just talked to the E4 that was on the gate guard. Went back--we were coming off a mission, and I was taking the detainees up to the jailhouse and I talked to him. He was going home the next day or two and going home on leave. Just had a brand new baby, I went back and I heard [imitates explosion] front gate went up. Blew 'em up. [pause] There's tons of those.

BROOKS: How did they get that close to the gate before--?

HARTWIG: They just--they let civilians into the FOB which they should never do but they do it for--I don't know, I wouldn't let them on to the FOB. They had Iraqis working on the FOB. I arrested one of the kid's sons that was out in the--that's the thing, they'd work with you on the FOB and you'd be hunting them at night. You couldn't trust nobody.

BROOKS: So a car or vehicle approaching the gate, you don't know who it is until--

HARTWIG: Right. They would either roll in slower or come in fast. Majority of them would be wired tied into the vehicle and if they didn't do it they'd murder 00:41:00his whole family. So what's a guy going to do? He's going to do it otherwise they're going to kill all his family. You can't blame him either because most of them, their foot was wired to the foot key. It's messed up over there.

BROOKS: Other than disarming explosives, what other types of missions did you go out on?

HARTWIG: We had good missions where we would go to mosques. People would send toothpaste, candy, gum, toys, clothes and I usually would take them to the priest in the FOB and then we'd hand out all the stuff. Those were good times. Then we had missions where we'd go to schools, make sure they had clean water 00:42:00and a lot of them didn't so then we'd set up guard while the--they call them aquifer guys come in, do their well thing. We'd pull security while they do it. We'd go round and check all the wells that were installed. Their quality of life rose threefold from us going there. When we rolled in to al-Dujail the first day there was so garbage, it was just crazy. We cleaned up the whole town for 'em, put up some electric stuff that--they would have a stick with a wire, if they had electricity, most of them didn't. That was--if people here could see how other people live, in other countries it's just crazy. How much freedom that 00:43:00they take for granted here. That's a lot of what I do in my artwork too. I don't know. It was--I probably averaged--there was one time I never slept for I think was seven days. From the day we hit the ground till the day I got on the plane to fly home there was probably two to three hours of sleep a night, if that. The whole time. It was non-stop. It's crazy.

BROOKS: Was that because you had trouble sleeping or because you always just had to be somewhere?

HARTWIG: You're always on mission. I was platoon sergeant so after every mission I had to deal with paperwork for the whole platoon. Training or whatever. I was constantly--I didn't sleep at all. I had a kinda sense [laughs]. Kind of a big 00:44:00thing with infantry guys is getting their EIB. Which is their combat battle badge. You gotta be in combat shooting at someone, they gotta be shooting at you too, to get it. Get blown up or a war time--can't be just be motor pool accident or whatever, it's gotta be a combat thing. There's a couple of guys who amazingly went through all that and never got it. There was one of the E4s--actually he was a problem over in headquarters so I took him on and he was a really good soldier. Turned out a really good soldier. Just had to know how to 00:45:00talk and communicate with him. Since he was over in headquarters he hadn't got his combat badge yet so he was like--and I would know when something bad was going to happen on a mission I always had a feeling. I briefed my guys, I said, "Stay alert today." It gets routine after you know you're constantly see that stuff all the time on every mission. You get complacent. You always had to get after them to stay coherent and not be complacent because when you lose your complacency you die and other people around you die. I always had this feeling when something bad was gonna happen--when we'd get hit with an IED or something. He goes "I want my CIB, let me know!" I told him, "You want on the roster 00:46:00today?" "Yeah, yeah." I said, "You sure?" I put his name down and sure enough, my vehicle got hit that day [laughs]. No one got hurt luckily but it did get hit. My vehicle got hit six times. I was blown up six times.

BROOKS: When you got that feeling what was that feeling like?

HARTWIG: Just a gut feeling that something bad was gonna happen that day. And it would. And the guys around me knew it too because I'd tell them in the briefing. Then every time I said that they were always alert. It was weird. That day I got hit I knew something was going to happen too. So did the EOD guy with me. He's bomb disposal. We were sitting on an IED. What they'd do was take a cow and dig the guts out of it and load it full of bombs. Then when we go to remove it off 00:47:00to U.S., "We gotta get this thing off the road," then they'd blow us up. Well, we caught on to that. So we were sitting on a dead cow, and I had EOD with me, we were QRF that day and we send up the robot. That's procedure, you send out the robot, put C4 on it. Depending if we could pull it, most of the time we just blew 'em in place because it was safer. They sent a robot up, put C4 on it, we blew that one. EOD comes back to me, and I go, "There's another one here. There's another one here." He got to every time I said something he would trust me because every time it was the truth. He goes, "Alright, we'll do sweeps." Which--you send ground guys out and you walk around till you find the bomb. 00:48:00Usually they'd put a secondary so when you're working on this one or rolling they put an obvious one up so you see that one so you're going to go right to it. While all your vehicles are parked back here so they put a secondary off here. So when you do your ground sweeps they blow you up.

That's what we were doing. I was doing a ground sweep and I kept arguing with the other EOD guys, 'cause he was new. He was a Navy guy and he kept arguing, "We're done, we're done. We need to get out of here." I said, "No, there's another one here." The Air Force guy, he was in charge of everything, he says, "No, we're listening to HARTWIG. There's one here." So he says, "I'm advancing the truck up--" and I had say we gotta pull security for 'em, so I had two guys guarding 'em, following the truck. And I turned to go down to do my sweeping 00:49:00around the vehicle and the IED went off. I got caught, shrapnel in here and a big chunk right by my face, burnt my face. That chunk was about that big, woulda took my head off if I woulda been that much further.

BROOKS: So for the recorder can you just say how big it was, like how many feet?

HARTWIG: It was probably a pound and a half that went by me and the one that went in my arm was probably an inch and a half. I hit the ground. I don't know if I went unconscious or not but the next thing I know was one of my guy was there doing first aid, told him to wrap it up. I had guys out, we were chasing the trigger guy. I had guys out. So I looked back, and as I remember seeing them all hit the ground and I thought they were all dead. I get up and I'm looking 00:50:00for them and they're all standing up talking. I was the only one hit, hurt. The triggermen run into a mosque and you can't do anything when they do that so, 'cause it's off limits. Can't even--unless they're shooting from one, you can't. It's a big no-no. We were still--they were doing--the EOD were doing their assessments and stuff and I remember I was thirsty. I'm walking around trying to get all my guys back together so we can clean up and move on. One of my drivers, Ericson, he was a problem kid but he would do everything that you told him to. But if you gave him an ounce of freedom he would take it. I said, "I'm thirsty." 00:51:00They were all out of water because we were out, probably at eight hours on mission already. He goes "I got a Dr. Pepper in the car!" So he gave me his Dr Pepper. He's just laughing, "I can't believe you, you get blown up and you're drinking Dr Pepper, walking around like nothing happened."

Then we got a call, there was a bomb in al-Dujail and the commander was there and they were sitting on a bomb or whatever. That was what got relayed to me. I got, I should have been evac'd, helicoptered to take care of my stuff. I'm the only one who had the EOD team. I escorted EOD team over there which ended up being a bogus thing. I finally after four more hours of being outside, I finally got back and they shot me up with morphine and medevac'd me to Anaconda. I 00:52:00remember going in there - see what happens was when I got to our FOB and seen the doctor there he says, "You gotta go to Anaconda. You need surgery." The procedure there is they shut down the Internet if someone gets hurt. They shut down the Internet because they don't want family member hearing it through the grapevine until the soldier can talk to the family or whatever. I was married to my second wife by that time. I said ,"Gimme the phone. You're not shutting the Internet down, that's their only thing they have to look forward to in the day." I get on the phone first, "Make sure you're talking to her!" I get the answering machine because of the time difference. I don't know what it's like, three o'clock in the afternoon and it was two in the morning there. I get the 00:53:00answering machine so I'm acting like I'm talking to her. Hang up the phone. "Yep, we're good." "Alright, I'll keep it on."

I got medevac'd up there to Anaconda. It was like a MASH unit, tents and that's where you went in. I remember sitting there, it was--it made me mad but I'm sitting there and there's an Iraqi sitting there and they were helping all them before they would even take a look at me. I'm sitting there with shrapnel in my arm. And they're in for a dental appointment. It was like, "What is wrong with this picture?" Then I finally got in the back, and it was an Australian doctor. He says, "Nope, I can't touch it." He did x-rays or something. He says, "Nope, I'm not touching it, you're going to Germany." I said, "The hell I am, I got 00:54:00forty guys who depend on me. I ain't leaving them with my lieutenant." So I said, "You're taking it out here." He goes, "I'll open it up. If I can take it, it'll be sitting in the jar." Sure enough, he did. He got it out. Two days later I'm back on mission again. It was about a month after that--I think it was a progression where I got my TBI because we were in blasts all the time. You're supposed to be two hundred yards but how you're going to do that when the bomb's here and you're standing here. You blow it in place or it goes off or whatever. The shockwaves, constant shockwaves and all. Now they're doing studies and that's what's causing them, all that constant--it's probably two, three hundred bombs went off. The radiowaves that rattle your brain, it's just like Mohammad 00:55:00Ali getting hit all the time. Where was I going? See I lost my train of thought.

BROOKS: You just said a month after you got hit by an IED--

HARTWIG: I was briefing my guys that day and I said, "Something's gonna happen today. Stay alert." We were out on route Python which is a bad road and we were--we called it 7/11 because it was middle of nowhere it was like two or three little buildings. They had like a food stand there or whatever, there's hardly anybody. That was one of where we'd like to set up road blocks and check people and stuff because they'd come across that road. It's kind of a point where you can't see us there until you get there. So we would always set up the roadblock search there. That was our mission. We rolled in there that day, there 00:56:00was probably two to three hundred Iraqis aged eighteen to twenty five. We set up the road block and I said, "Nope, we're out of here. Something's going down." I said, "Watch when you go out of town, they're going to have IEDs laid. Let's go." We packed up. We got about a mile out of town and the first gun truck Sergeant O'Dell was in, he was an E7, I was an E6 at the time in charge of him [laughs]. He rolled by it and I seen it was an IED, they had tumbleweed. They usually bury them in brown burlap bags and then cover them with vegetation. They rolled by, I said, "Push through it, push through it." 'Cause if you stopped, you would stop on it. So he pushed through and we were going too fast. We were doing fifty. We blew by it and they had a secondary that went off. It threw my 00:57:00armored vehicle--I was given a check right actually at that time for the new unit coming in. He was in the backseat, first time he was out of the wire and the hummer went off the ground about that far, blew out my bulletproof windshield, it was that thick. All the way across.

BROOKS: That's like four feet off the ground?

HARTWIG: Yeah. Sergeant Stone was behind me and he said that's the biggest explosion he'd ever seen. It took out the front tire, windshield. Then I remember, when I come to I remember, "We're getting shot at!" The fifty cal was just [imitates machine gun]--trying to get on the radio, O'Dell, you could see 00:58:00he was trigger happy trying to figure out what's going on. There was movement--there was buildings right next to us. It's out in the middle of nowhere and there are all of a sudden these two buildings. He thought we were getting shot at, I don't know, there was some confusion. The trigger guys, there was a hill up there and they were still up there. That fifty cal--I finally got him calmed down and quit firing. I go, "What are you shooting at?" "There's movement in that building and I thought I heard rounds hitting the vehicle." So I said, "Okay, we're going to get out and do ground advance. You take the north side; I'll go around the south side. We'll flush them out" So we did. We went back there. When we were in Iraq we got these black birds, about this big, and 00:59:00that building was full of them. It was an abandoned building. On the backside, and fifty cal is very destructive. I go round the backside of that building must have been two hundred of these birds all in a pile. I teased him about bird hunting.

Then we were trying to chase down the trigger guys. And I remember seeing another IED out there and of course I got in an argument with the new EOD guy. "There isn't one there." 'Cause he'd put on a bomb suit and walked up and he couldn't find it. I said, "It's right there. I can see it from here." "Oh you're seeing stuff." I was in aviation before so I know how aviation guys think and 01:00:00when I was in trouble I'd go above battalion and I'd call the aviation unit in. Bear three one, he was my buddy. I'd call "Bear three one, you in AO?" "Yup" "You wanna take a swing round here and put your heat on the road, tell me where the bombs at?" And he'd go, "Yeah, it's right there, underneath that weight." The EOD guy finally started to trust me. They send up the bomb, blew it up. We were changing the tire. Made it back to the FOB. I didn't, at that time--you made it, you didn't think nothing. I'd get headaches and stuff but everything's going on at the time and I get back and it's like toward the end, I couldn't think right, slurring my words. I'd say stuff that--I was thinking different and 01:01:00saying something else. I thought I was messed up, going crazy. It was TBI. And then one day I read an article about TBI and I said, "There's thirteen symptoms and I got every one of them." Then I went to get help for it. Tried to get help for it. Which was a nightmare and a half. But it's changed a lot.

BROOKS: Why was it such a nightmare?

HARTWIG: I could tell you what had happened. I got back to demob, usually you're supposed to have a full physical [laughs]. They said, "We're taking your blood pressure and pulse." "I'm alive, I want a physical. You're going to kick me back into civilian role, I want a full physical." "You ain't getting one here." So I 01:02:00said, "Well." They said, "You're meeting with the doctor later." So I went into the Army doctor, didn't look at anything. I had shrapnel injuries and all sorts of stuff wrong with me and they said, "Well, you're VA's problem now." Wrote it right on my discharge paper: "Needs VA appointments." So I said okay. I went over to Tomah VA, walked in there and said I need help. She goes, "Well what's your last four?" I told her, and she goes, "Well you ain't on our system." I said, "How do I get in there? I need help." "Well, you're not in our system, sir. Can't help you." And I just went off. Said, "This is wrong." Next thing I know, Jean Butman [sp ??] come out, PTSD lady come out, I was back in her 01:03:00office, talking about what was going on. Kinda messed up, that whole system was not ready for guys coming back. They had all them years to get ready for it.

BROOKS: At what point was it that you read about the TBI?

HARTWIG: It was probably six months after I got back. I progressively got worse. Of course most infantry guys eighteen to twenty they don't want to get help because they're worried about their military career. They ain't gonna go get help. They self-medicate. That's one of my drawings, self-medicated. Sit and drink beer all day. Then things get worse, till you hit rock bottom then you 01:04:00need help. Go get help. But there's a lot of guys out there. They need help, too afraid to go get it. They drank themselves to death, kill themselves. Suicides. I mean there was no system to screen them even when they got back. They did our debrief on a live fire range. Welcome home briefing, live fire range. [laughs] "Do you need help?" They're worried about qualifying and staying in their position. They ain't worried about taking someone, asking questions if there's something wrong with you. In a tent, for two minutes. Crazy. Messed up.

I did the system. Numerous--well I'll tell you the story, I went from Tomah, I 01:05:00said I got shrapnel wounds, I have lots of issues, nerve damage and everything, arm falls asleep all the time. Neuropathy is what they call it. And they said, "Well we can't do anything for you here. We'll get you down in at Minneapolis VA." I said "Okay." Says, "Here's the number, you can call down there and get in." I call them up. I get a lady and she goes--I said, "I need help, I got shrapnel injuries and they need to get checked out because I need to go back to my civilian job. I have had no treatment. I was over in Iraq and I had no therapy, no treatment, nothing." And I said, "It's bothering me." She goes, "Well we can't get you in for six month." I said, "Really? I am a returning 01:06:00combat veteran, fresh on the ground. I'm supposed to be priority one." This is words from her, "You know, you guys go over there for a few months and you come back and expect better benefits than what I get working here twenty years." I said, "I'm through talking with you." Senator Feingold. Needless to say my phone was ringing ten minutes later getting me in for an appointment. Which, they sent me to Urgent Care the next day. I walked in the Urgent Care, sat there for three hours. Finally got to go in to see a nurse, and was winter time, that was January by the time I got to go actually see them. She didn't event ask me to take my coat off. She asked me a couple of questions. I said I had shrapnel in 01:07:00my shoulder, didn't even look at me. She goes out of the room, comes back, throws me a wrist brace and painkillers and says, "There you are." I said, "What? What's this?" I said, "It's my shoulder, not my wrist. I'm done here." And I left. I went back and called the Senator up, told them my experience. I'd kinda go through the program and we changed a lot of laws.

BROOKS: Did you know the Senator beforehand?

HARTWIG: Nope.

BROOKS: You just decided he was the guy to call?

HARTWIG: Something had to be done, man. Just crazy, nuts.

BROOKS: When did you come back?

HARTWIG: 2005. It was bad, they'd put you on the waiting list, they'd cancel your appointments. To get in for appointments was crazy. They weren't prepared. 01:08:00They still aren't, they're way behind. To get even service connected that's a nightmare too. Here's documents, here's the proof, they take you two years to get approved before you can even go get help. So a lot of guys gave up. They try it once and boom, you're denied four times automatically. 'Cause they got to process the paperwork to make it shuffle along to say they'd processed a claim. It's denied, they didn't even work out the paperwork. Then you have to have new material evidence to reopen it. You gave them all the evidence they shoulda made the correct the decision. That was my goal; I was focused on that to straighten that mess out. Changed a lot of things.

BROOKS: How long were you over there? How long were in you Iraq?

HARTWIG: A year. Landed on my birthday. I left I think a day before my birthday. I was there a full year or a day after my birthday. One of the two.

BROOKS: When you got back stateside was there any chance that you were going to get deployed again. Sounds like you were--

HARTWIG: Yes. I actually went back to my unit in Eau Claire [Wisconsin]. I was in Menomonie [Wisconsin] at the time but Eau Claire's the base unit and I was in Alpha company. I drilled probably two drills and I wasn't functioning right but my guys were covering for me. Which was a nice thing but it wasn't what they 01:10:00should have done. I should have--I wouldn't talk to too many people that knew me because they'd figure me out. I was hiding everything. I wouldn't go out. I'd stay home all the time because I didn't want anybody to know. I'd come down on an annual health screen and they ask if you'd seen any doctors, what was your medical condition so I wrote them down, send it in, next thing you know I'm out of the Army. Just kicked me out, boom.

BROOKS: When was that?

HARTWIG: 2006. I'm sitting there--I didn't even know I was discharged. I had a root canal done over in Iraq and it got infected because it wasn't done right. 01:11:00They were going to fix it here. They fixed it at the VA and it got infected again, then finally I got a civilian doctor that was going to work on it. Got it fixed and I went out to check the bill and says, "You don't have Tricare anymore, you're not covered." I'd made the premium and everything for that month. And I'm like, "What do you mean?" "Your Tricare has been cancelled." I call up Tricare - "You were discharged on such and such date." "Really?" [laughs] I call. I can't remember who I called. I called my commander I think, he says, "Yeah we got papers yesterday you were discharged." So I make a few phone calls. "Yep." I said, "I'm sitting here at nineteen some years. You just 01:12:00can't throw me out and not give me anything. No bennies, nothing." I made a few phone calls, Adjutant General, I told them what went on. I had to go down--oh, that's later on. I don't know, they talked to my wife and she said that I didn't want to go through and have a physical 'cause I was seeing the VA for all my medical needs. I would have to go back to Fort Knox, Kentucky to get my discharge physical. Or they could take the VA stuff. It turned out that they just discharged me. It's like, "What a minute." I'm at the point where I'm trying to connect all this to service stuff and then they discharge me. Makes it 01:13:00a lot harder. So I end up talking to the general and he says, "Nope, can't do nothing for you." "What? This is wrong." "Oh you were notified." I don't know, general got caught in a buncha lies because I called Senator Feingold. Turned out that they were sending me emails. I got an email from a lady that had all attached emails that proved they were lying through the whole time. "We gotta get Sergeant HARTWIG discharged. And get him through the--" I had all them emails. Then I showed the senator, he's like on fire. And [snaps].

Then I was back on the medical hold for five years and they don't pay any benefits during that time. I got a family to feed, you know. I get stuck on that. Fort Knox, Kentucky, I was told I would only have to go down there once possibly twice depending on the seriousness of my medical conditions. I drove down there seven times. They would call you, they would send you a letter. If you got it, you had to be down there the next day. So I'd get off my civilian job, get in a vehicle and drive down there, just barely make the appointment. I did that a couple of times.

BROOKS: Why did you have to go down there?

HARTWIG: I'd go in there and it could have been something they could have asked me over the phone. They'd put me on orders to do this and pay me E7 pay to drive down there and do this. Pay my travel, everything and it'd cost them a thousand, 01:15:00they coulda asked the question on the phone. I did that like seven times. Then they were going to do it again. I said, "Isn't there something else you could do?" Then I'd call the Senator and say, "This is crap." They coulda discharged me, one physical, and done, out the door. They know my injuries, it's all documented, I've been through the VA system, it's all rated. Everything. All service connected, hundred percent. That was my battle too. I went through that.

BROOKS: You said you got a lot of stuff changed. What does that mean?

HARTWIG: Wounded Warrior Act 2008. A lot of that comes from Senator Feingold. He said, "What needs to be fixed? What needs to be done?" I said, "They should have this. For infantry combat units there should be PTSD screenings upon discharge. Were you associated with IEDs? Did you have to go pick up body parts?" You know 01:16:00these are eighteen, twenty year old guys most of them. You expect them from putting a head in a garbage bag to go back and work at McDonald's the next day? Come on. You're going to see a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder people out there. It's just a matter of time before they get in trouble. You see more and more of it every day. More suicides. That's why it's out there. Now the public is more aware of it so there's more help. Wounded Warriors. Lotta groups out there who finally care. It's a good thing. Things are happening. I feel sorry for the Vietnam guys, man, they had nothing. A lot of people--what makes me mad 01:17:00is a lot of people don't even know there's a war still going on. They're still fighting, there' still guys dying every day. They just--freedom, they don't understand what freedom is. That's my art theme. Freedom. I do a lot of freedom stuff. Freedom's worth a lot.

BROOKS: Before we talk about your art I just want to talk about--you got out in 2014?

HARTWIG: After being on the medical waitlist and everything I think I stopped drilling in 2007 actively. Then it took years. It took seven years to go through the whole process and finally May 2014 I get my discharge retirement letter. Got 01:18:00it in the mail.

BROOKS: They finally let you know you were actually discharged?

HARTWIG: They just sent me it. Well I had to go through a whole process but actually had to go to a civilian over in Marshfield to do my medical assessment. Then I had to settle for less than what I should have got. Otherwise I would have to fly down to Washington and go through a board and fight it. You're so fed up with it I settled for ninety percent instead of a hundred. VA's got me at like 283 percent if you put them all together. It's 100 percent combat, every injury, so [laughs] it doesn't make sense. So, whatever, I'm done. That's what they want. They have to pay you less. It's sad, it's really a shame. I got my 01:19:00thing in a tube in the mail. [laughs] You gotta laugh at it too, it's bad but you gotta take the light side of it. It's over, done.

BROOKS: So, before we started recording I had asked you a little bit about your art so why don't you tell me a little bit about when you started making art and how you got to this point?

HARTWIG: I ended up probably hitting rock bottom, needed to go through PTSD clinic in Tomah. I had some wife issues. That kinda really threw me. I was 180 01:20:00blood pressure [laughs]. I went in and told them I needed to go in treatment. That was Dan McCann [sp??], Chippewa. He said, "We'll get you in." Went down to Tomah about a week later. Good program. Very hard. Went through all sorts of therapy. [laughs] You'd go in and you'd talk about it for an hour and you'd be exhausted for three days after. Just crazy. You're just totally drained. You'd sit and even at that time half the class was Vietnam veterans. Just getting help for the first time. It's just amazing. So you meet a lot of new friends, 01:21:00different era. All had the same thing in common. And I met Tim Mayer there. Arts for Humanities. I was doing my--we had an art therapy session and he was there. He said, "Express all your--whatever you want to do. Whatever you wanna do." Of course, I'm talking about helping other veterans, all the processes I went through, I drew this--Red Tape is what I called it, going down to a bleeding heart 'cause purple hearts or whatever. And all the red tape you had to go through just to get help. And he seen that. He was quiet during the class. I explained to him what it all meant and everything. Right after that class he 01:22:00came up me he goes, "Would you like to be an artist for Artists for Humanities?"

So from there we've been in contact. His goal is to have me go with him when he goes to--and at first they didn't want to let him in a VA places. Which was sad and he's privately funded, it's not--that's probably why it's still doing good. But now he's getting in to all the VA hospitals. They didn't even want him coming in. It helps veterans big time. He wants me to travel with him as an artist to help him draw or whatever. So I'm studying all the mediums I can in school. I did a couple pieces for him, he pulls out pieces and shows people when he's asking for donations and stuff. Shows 'em what it's all about, which is 01:23:00good. I just, from probably that point I said I've always wanted to art, I'm just going to bury myself in art. That's what I do. Keep my mind off everything. It's wonderful therapy for me. What else would I be doing, sitting in my garage, drinking beer all night. I do something positive with it. I was a wood carver, I started carving but then I lost a little interest in it. I did a few carvings. Then I said, "I want to use my G.I. Bill." That was another nightmare, another challenge. I ended up fighting to try to get that. It was crazy?

BROOKS: Why was that difficult?

HARTWIG: Because it was ten years after my first initial thing. It doesn't restart the clock if you do any active time after. It does now, senator got 01:24:00involved and now it does. That was Senator Moulton that straightened that one out. I just can't see if it's wrong, you gotta change it. To benefit the next person coming back. It's totally wrong, so gotta be changed. And I'm just a stickler for that. I'll be bull headed till it's changed. That was part of my second wife's issues with me. "Just drop it. It ain't worth it." I said, "No, it needs to be changed." At that time, I couldn't do that anymore because it was just driving me nuts. I kinda laid off that. Then I got into art and I said I'm going back to school and after all the red tape and whatever I ended up going 01:25:00over to [University of Wisconsin] Stout for two years. Took up oil painting. All sort of mediums.

BROOKS: Were you studying art there then?

HARTWIG: Yes. I went under a program, industrial--it was more of an engineering degree and I got into--you know I got TBI and I got in the geometry class and it's on computers. I know how to do emails, I did all my paperwork on the computer, but programs--TBI is--you gotta remember what keys are and TBI you got short term memory loss. You don't remember what key does what. I struggled. I was A up until we got to the computer portion where you had to go find programs out. They're like finding in a cloud to me 'cause I don't know how to get back 01:26:00to it. Instructors just go fast and these kids on computers nowadays they're just--they're right up there with him and I'm like this, sit in class, wouldn't even touch my computer. I'd go up to them and I said, "I can't keep up." He goes, "Well you're straight A right now." I said, "I can't do it. You don't understand." And I went through and I explained to him, and I said, "Maybe if I can take my time and it's all spelt out. Once I learn it I'm good." But I didn't have time to do that and get through the course and everything so I end up dropping that class. Then my daughter moved to Belle Plaine, Minnesota and I got divorced and said, "I ain't staying here." Had no family there, so I wanted to move closer to my daughter but I wanted to stay in Wisconsin, didn't want to 01:27:00change my benefits or whatever--

BROOKS: You didn't want to go through that again.

HARTWIG: So I moved over to Prescott which is right across the bridge from Minnesota so I'm fifty, sixty miles east from my daughter. Going to the university in River Falls. And I'm taking--they had hot glass and I'm like, "Alright, another medium." [laughs] I'm hooked on that now.

BROOKS: When was your daughter born?

HARTWIG: '92. November.

BROOKS: She's a November baby, like you.

HARTWIG: Mother's November too. Her mom's the tenth, she's the eleventh and I'm the twenty-third. And my girlfriend is the twenty-second. [laughs]

BROOKS: That's a lot to do in one month. But you were interested in art before you started doing--

HARTWIG: Always, always. My grandmother taught me how to crochet. My other 01:28:00grandmother was a painter. Grandpa was a woodworker. I've been exposed to a lot.

BROOKS: Can you think of anything else in particular that draws you to art?

HARTWIG: I've always liked art, color. Bright colors. I like charcoal drawings too, so that's the darker side, but you can make them boastful too. If you know how to do it. I like all mediums. It's like one helps you do another, you can bring some element out of the other into the other. The more you know, knowledge is power, man. Then mixing mediums, I do that a lot. It's like, "How do you do 01:29:00all them different things?" Most people just stick with the one thing. It's like, you get bored with one you can switch and go do this, or make that. You know, your imagination, it's limitless what you can create and learn. It's all up to you. Self-driven. You can do nothing and be nothing or you can lose sleep doing it, which I do a lot. I'm just--that's my thing. I love doing it.

BROOKS: You said that before you went into the PTSD program you'd kind of hit rock bottom?

HARTWIG: Yep.

BROOKS: What did that look like for you?

HARTWIG: I was in the middle of a divorce, drinking a lot. Not getting the 01:30:00proper help that I should have. I'm talking dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder mainly. TBI, it's the worst one because no one thinks you have it. I struggled for four years trying to get help for it. It was crazy. I ended up going down, I think it was Madison, the head guy in the brain trauma unit. He come in and he goes--finally I had a meeting with him. I go in there and he goes, "What do you think is wrong with you?" I said, "I think I have TBI" He says, "You're 100 percent correct. You should have been helped five years ago." I said, "I was told this and that and they were going to help me." He goes on his computer. I said, "There's nowhere to get help, no one wants to help you." 01:31:00They say, "You're walking, you're fine." It's like, you don't understand struggling through day to day activities. It's crazy. You may look normal but you're not. So he got on his computer and was punching on some keys and he goes, "Okay, got you scheduled." I said, "Where do I gotta go?" "Right there in Eau Claire. You're going to the private brain treatment, Marshfield hospital." I said, "Yeah right, I been told that." "When you're chief of the hospital you can do them things."

Then I finally went through and months and months and months of therapy, speech therapy. I couldn't even remember my kid's names when I come back. Ages, nothing. The worst was going through a VA--what do they call 'em? To go get your 01:32:00ratings, you go in there and they'll put stuff down, you don't even say it and they put down in your stuff to deny you your disability. It's crazy. It's like, "This person said this." Why would I say that, I'm going there to try to get it? That's sad, that's really sad. Frustrating, very frustrating. You know, there's people that do fraud but process the one's that need help and deal with the fraud after like any other functioning system. They spend ten people helping the fraud department and one person helping the veterans. It's like, come on! I'll get off that.

BROOKS: No, that's okay.

HARTWIG: I want to stay on a positive note.

BROOKS: Well let's talk a little bit more about your art. Obviously I presume a lot of it is positive for you, it deals with some pretty challenging, difficult topics. Do you remember what the first piece of work you did, you said that about the Red Tape and things like that so maybe after that--

HARTWIG: That was my first one that I geared toward dealing with the military stuff. It was probably Freedom Flow, my plaster carving. That's the first time I'd ever carved plaster, that things got a lot of stories behind it already. I started carving, it was in a 3D sculpture class in Stout. I started real huge. It was a solid block, two foot by two foot, all in plaster. I started carving that it was just huge. I left it in the studio overnight, one day. Usually I 01:34:00took it home and I'd work on it at home too because I didn't have enough during the day--so I left it there one night and I came back and someone had busted it in half. I took it, my good half, I took it home and finished carving it out and that's what it ended up being. But I took it in for critique day, grading day, the class does a critique on it. The criteria was one full penetrating hole through the object and it had to cast a shadow. That was the--and you see mine, it's multiple thin, thick. It's free flowing, it's freedom. That's why I call it Freedom Flow 'cause it flows everywhere. But if you notice it's sitting on one peg, the whole piece. It sits back here but it's supported on one tip. That represents how fragile freedom is. You bust that tip off it breaks. That's the 01:35:00point behind it. My instructor gave me a eighty-three percent on that thing and I was so mad. He didn't let me set it up to where I could adjust the light to cast the shadow. It was a fast critique and I was just so mad. I took that piece home and I carved on it some more, made it thinner. I didn't really do much to it and I took it back, 'cause he said, "Well you go work on it a little bit more". Okay. It's like I'm sitting in the class and there's students that just got a big log with one hole through it. It's like, come on. And they're getting the same grade I'm getting here? I took it back and he re-graded it and he gave me an eighty-six percent on it. I told him this is crazy. Whatever. You swallow 01:36:00your pride and walk away.

I entered it into the West Thirty-five show in Eau Claire, it's a professional show. I got second place in the show [laughs]. So right after that I put it in--they had a veteran's thing at the school, at River Falls and they wanted veteran's pieces or artwork, so I brought in four pieces that I had. Freedom Flow was one of them and I put that thing out there and it was like people swarmed around it. All the students, like, "How did you do that?" Art director's like, "You gotta do--this is your first?" Anyway they had an opening and the artist had to be there so I'm there. A lot of Vietnam veterans come around says, 01:37:00"That one's yours isn't it?" "Yeah." I had a couple other people [inaudible] artist show. The guy come up to me says, "You don't need apply, just give me a call and I'll put you right in." So from just starting to show all my stuff it's going crazy. I like it but it's keeping me busy. Then I got a request to do another show in Eau Claire in May and I did a carved eagle wing with the glass tips on the wings. It's full sized. And I got a tail coming out of the--it's on a clear glass, like water, and then the tails coming, blown tail coming out and that's holding the hand-blown egg and inside the egg is a heart. It's about survival. You do what you can to keep afloat. I still want to add--I got a leg 01:38:00blown for it then I'm going to carve, let the egg sit on the talons like it's out of the water. I usually go way overboard on my school projects and when I bring it in all the students get jealous. Now they're used to me now [laughs]. They're like, "Uh, I gotta go after you?"

BROOKS: Nobody wants to go?

HARTWIG: But now they come and ask me, "What do I need? What should I do?" Then I'm in studio drawing now and it's going very well. I went overboard on everything I do. She likes me to speak to the class a lot. And I do. I just tell them, I mean, if you're going to spend forty hours on it why don't you put your 01:39:00heart into it instead of-- you're paying for this training and this education. Take full advantage of it 'cause when you get out working you may not be able to draw again for a long time because you're going to be having a job, raising kids. I said take your time now and enjoy this.

BROOKS: What kind of reaction do you get from them, especially when you're talking what your work's about?

HARTWIG: Lot of them sit there silent, like, "Yeah, okay." Lot of them are like--she likes me in the class because I drive them to do better. They see what I'm doing and say, "I can't just throw this together just to get a grade and get through the class." They actually are busy.

BROOKS: Do they have any thoughts or do they ever talk to you about how they feel about what your work is about?

HARTWIG: In critiques, most of them are very interested in hearing stories. Some 01:40:00more than what I care to share to them because the goriness of it or whatever. Some--at first I was quiet and didn't want to talk to anyone about it and through my going through post-traumatic stress and talking about it in front of people, wants me to make sure and talk about more of that stuff, as much as I can sometimes it gets too hard. Because I want people to understand what these guys are going through 'cause that's how they're going to get help. If the general public doesn't understand what these guys are going through, they think everything's okay, good, and it's not. They're hiding everything then it comes out in the suicides and drinking themselves to death, pills, OD'ing, drugs. Lot 01:41:00of 'em switch to drugs. It's not the way to go. You go downhill further and further, makes it harder to dig out. So if people don't understand that or why, what's the cause of it, you know, once they hear me talk it's like, "Okay, I understand they need help."

BROOKS: You think your art also serves a purpose to help other people understand?

HARTWIG: Yes, yes. It brings up questioning. People want to talk to me about what I was in--it's kinda funny. I take a dangerous situation and I kinda put a spin on it and make it funny. This has actually happened. It was my third squad made a bad decision in the middle of Iraq and tried to cross some water. If there would have been any enemy in the area, they'd have all been dead but they're all standing in the middle of the swamp on top of the gun truck and then 01:42:00it's underwater all the way up to windows. There are three who are standing on top of the truck like, "Hey!" 'Cause they're getting pulled out by one of our other guys. We call them the swamp donkeys after that. I tried--this was my last studio class, so I tried a new medium which is water color, I'd never used it before and it's completely different than oil painting and I did it. The instructor goes, "This is the first time you used water color?" "Yeah" She goes, "Wow." Of course, the kids in the class, one girl was like, "Of course it's gonna be great." [laughs] It's fun being around younger kids too. Most of them are eighteen to twenty.

BROOKS: How do you think other veterans react to your artwork?

HARTWIG: The veterans that are at the school, we all communicate very well. One 01:43:00of them was in 128, he's in hot glass. At first he just kept quiet, so do I, until you start hearing bits and pieces of what you've done and where you've been. It's kind of like a macho thing with the military. Once they understand that you've seen the shit, then you open up to people. Start talking about it to the other veterans. You have your little five minute bleeps here and there during the day, during the class 'cause class is two hours and forty-five minutes, hot glass. You build up your relationship, you start trusting each other. Then it comes out in critiques and things like that, my pieces are all 01:44:00about survival, freedom and he does a lot of it too. Then we had the veterans show and there was a professional coordinator that came in there to the college. She comes to every one of 'em just to tell them how the show was or whatever, to the art coordinator. She goes, "That's the best show that's ever been here." And half the stuff was mine, which made me feel good. She come back to me and said, "We're going to do another one. Can you bring some more?" I said, "I got some stuff going to a museum but give me a month and I'll have pieces ready."

BROOKS: How many pieces do you think you do on average per month? I don't know if that's a--

HARTWIG: Four or five big pieces. And I do little ones too. I don't--lot of the 01:45:00school structure they want you to have a sketch book and sketch everything out. Me? I don't want to waste my time with the sketch book. Okay, I know what I want it's all up here. I'm going to do it. For the class you got to sketch it all out, I hate that. I do all my planning in my head and then I go and I do it. Most students can't do that. They gotta talk it through, talk to the instructor. "Okay what do I do?" I'm gonna do my own thing. It's like oil painting, the instructor was an abstract painter and that's all he wanted you to paint and I was like, "I'm not an abstract painter. I'll meet you fifty-fifty, that's it." And I did, my grade suffered for it too. He knew that but he told me, "Your grade might suffer 'cause of it but you gotta do your own thing, I understand 01:46:00that." I'm not going to paint abstract so why are you making me paint abstract? It wasn't an abstract class. I painted one, Staring Death in the Face I think that's one that's here. That was an abstract painting that I did. I went totally--almost abstract but it represents something. You're supposed to paint a bad experience or something that affected your life. Well, getting hit with an IED. That's me getting hit with an IED and this is blood and that's my death face, I'm staring death in the eyes. The eyes stare back at each other and it's bright orange and I don't know if you've seen it?

BROOKS: It's not in here.

HARTWIG: He's had it for three months.

BROOKS: I've seen the color on the computer; we only have a black and white picture.

HARTWIG: I hung it down at the end of the hallway which is this long, probably 100 feet and a professional artist from, I think it was France, it was over at Stout, and he come running into the paint studio, I was in oil painting at the time. And I was working on a painting. He's walking around looking at everybody's painting in the studio and he gets to mine and he goes, "You're the one." I said, "What do you mean, I'm the one?" He goes, "That's your painting out in the hallway right?" I said, "Yes." I didn't know who he was. "I walked around the corner and it grasped me and I kept walking and walking and it drew me right up to it." He said, "The painting just, the glare in the eyes, draws 01:48:00you up. I just wanted to let you know that's an awesome painting." I didn't know who he was. I said, "Well, thanks." He goes, "The one you're working on is awesome too." He turned around and walked out. I didn't know who he was. He was a younger guy, probably forties, but he was a professional artist. Charles [??] come in, that was the professor, he's smiling. Come walking up to me and said, "You know who that was?" Yadda, yadda, famous French painter or whatever. He says, "It's good to hear my students are doing very well." And he turned and walked away [laughs]. I think he gave me--that was the highest grade I ever got in his class and I think I got an eighty-nine on that painting. He was strict. I think they're more strict towards me because I'm more--the first things I do, I 01:49:00blow 'em away and they expect more from me. I have to work twice as hard, which I don't mind, because I will anyway, that's just me. It pushes me to do better. You learn a lot more. I love it.

BROOKS: Where do you get your ideas and your plans from? How do you know what you're going to do?

HARTWIG: I'll be thinking of a subject or something and how could I send a message, maybe. Sometimes I'll just do art for art's sake. When you're in school they always want you to have a theme and not make art just to make art. I like to do that too but in school you have to have a purpose, a theme, explain it all out. That's where I kinda, okay, I wind up on the military theme. Want to help 01:50:00veterans and stuff, that's what I'm on. It just is like opening up--not too many artists do that, I just like doors are wide open. I'm going to use it and go. Then I like to do it because it gets help for other veterans. That helps me, therapy-wise.

BROOKS: Can you expand a little bit on that?

HARTWIG: It makes me want to process what happened. I can do it--some of these things take hundreds of hours so I can take my time, when I want to process that information or I can just stick with the art form. I'll think of, "Oh yeah, I want to do this to this, bring this out." It just makes my stuff more lively. Feeling-wise. To me anyway. That's what I'm told by other viewers too. I'm just 01:51:00going to keep doing what I want to do. See what happens, create art.

BROOKS: Tell me, you were going to tell me a little bit more about the towers.

HARTWIG: Twin Towers. I feel that we're not proactive enough to--well, first of all before 9/11 we were too complacent. "They ain't gonna do nothing here. Our country's safe." Too complacent. We left terrorism grow, and we have continued to let it grow. It's going to get to this country, just a matter of time. I think we need to be more proactive in fighting terrorism, which they're starting to realize it now. Otherwise we're going to have a Twin Towers thing happen 01:52:00again. It's a matter of time. That's why when I made the Twin Towers I wanted to first be a memorial for people that gave their lives, but it's-- if you look at the heads that are glass blown, they're all like terrorist demons trying to get into the towers again. They're all surrounding, looking, "How am I going to get in again? And do the same thing." It's easy for terrorists to do that. You can have all the safe guards that we have in this country and they're still going to get in. Still gonna to get in. You know, Boston bombings. Right there. It happens every day over in other countries, we're so fortunate that we have what we have here in this country. But if we're too complacent it's going to come 01:53:00here, it's going to happen. People here don't have to worry about going down the grocery store and getting blown up. They do in countries every day. I just, want to raise, "Have we forgotten?" kinda thing. This is what happens when we get too complacent and let things mature and fester and grow. Terrorism is growing. See it all over. It's gonna grow, it's gonna continue to grow. Just like riots. Stuff happening now. Was it wrong? Yes. Do we need to rip our own neighborhoods apart? No.

BROOKS: Do you have a favorite piece?

HARTWIG: My next one. I get to the point--it'd probably be Freedom Flow. That 01:54:00was a thing well, kind of a--it's like the challenge piece for me. It's like an instructor didn't think it was worth a crap but look what it did in professional show. It's kinda my pat on my back saying, "I was right." I don't know. That's probably my favorite piece. You can look at it and it's an artistic expression, you can take any meaning from it, you don't have to take my meaning. People are just awed by how it turns and how thin it is and it's a delicate plaster. Especially when they ask me how I made. Just a chisel and a hammer. "What?" "No 01:55:00way!" That's when they really appreciate the form. I got students come up, "How do you carve it that way? I wanna make a piece like that."

BROOKS: Are you a full time student now then?

HARTWIG: I go half time but I take two studio classes so I'm constantly there just for the two studios. 'Cause the classes are three hours long each. They meet twice a week. Then with hot glass you got what they call blow slots, that's where you blow glass and the rest is class time where you learn how to blow glass. So you have two two hour periods you have to be there to blow glass so I'm at school all the time. Once you do glass you got to cold work it and that's 01:56:00hours and hours and hours to get it to come back to actual glass. Like my casted deer head down there, I got probably 100 hours after it come out of the kiln just cold working it. There's a story behind that one too. Actually that would be my favorite piece if I had to choose a piece. That and Freedom Flow. Because I was in class and I didn't know if the instructor didn't like me or what but he goes, "You need to draw up your plan." I did and I said, "I want to cast this deer head." He looks at me, "You want to just do one antler?" I go, "No, I want to do the whole head." He goes, "Do you realize how much work that is?" I said, "Yeah." "Well, it's impossible to do." I said, "What do you mean it's impossible 01:57:00to do?" "You've taught us how to do pretty much everything, it's just--why is it impossible?" "They never turn out," he says. "This is what I want to do." Finally after arguing with him he's like, "Fine, do it." Then he stayed away from me and I was doing my thing. Doing all my molds and everything.

We had a professional glass blower and he's also in casting glass, from Chicago come. He come over to the cold shop and I was pulling molds off this antlers. He's going, "How many years you been casting glass?" I said, "This is an intro class." He goes, "No. You're trying antlers?" Like, "Well, yeah this is what I 01:58:00want to do" He goes, "I wouldn't even attempt to do them. That's the hardest thing you can do." I said, "Well, this is what I want to do." He goes, "I want you to send me pictures of them when you're done with it." I said, "Okay, all right." So then he sat there and he talked to me for about forty-five minutes while all the other students are ignored. Then the instructor comes up and starts talking me about the process. Then he wants to me my friend. Okay. I was in that cold shop all the time. I never let him see it. Even in class I wouldn't let him see it. I'd have one little piece or something I would be working on. Then I'd come in at night and I'd work on it. I took it home and finished it at home.

BROOKS: Why a deer head?

HARTWIG: Again, the survival thing. I do lot of pieces--I used to hunt and when I got back from Iraq, hunting wasn't a thing I wanted to do anymore. It's hard to explain. That adrenaline ain't there anymore. It's beauty, just let it live. I've killed enough so that's not what I want to do. Anyway, so I do a lot of deer heads, Lost and Found or like the glass deer head that I did. All the shells are around it and the deer skull is still laying in a bag somewhere because it made it through all that crap. He still died, natural causes, or whatever, but he didn't lose. He lived his life so that's what that was about. I 02:00:00get this deer head done and go into critique and they had it all set up and he walks in. He about fell over. He looks at it [laughs]. There's a couple of students in there because I went early to set it up. They're looking at their little thing that they made. They're like, "No way, that's just nuts." He comes in, looks at that thing. He comes over there, he's looking at it, he goes, "That turned out excellent. How many times you cast it?" I said, "Well, I had to cast the bottom jaw twice because the first one was too thin and broke." 'Cause everything's supported on them glass jaws. I had it at a show in Eau Claire and they broke it that's why I had to do glue that one back on. But I will recast 02:01:00the bottom, and make it whole again. I wanted it to show. That was pretty neat. He waited till the critique was done and course he wouldn't say anything during the critique. He let the students just do it. At the end he comes up there and he's like, "Can you bring it in some other day so I can get a professional photographer to come in take pictures?" See, now he wants credit for me being his student. I said, "I can't it's over in a show in Eau Claire. It's going in a show tomorrow." And it actually did. "Oh, well after the show can you bring it in?" So actually I never have brought it in. Mike DuPont is the glass blower in Chicago - I sent him pictures of it. I can't say what he said. Phenomenal was 02:02:00part of the conversation. "Send me everything you do." So I got a friend in Chicago now.

BROOKS: How is it working with--obviously you take the art very seriously -- I mean, I think everyone takes it seriously but you do it more in a professional way, you take classes - how is that working with veterans who are just trying to do it more for therapy and less worried about--

HARTWIG: They're each are at their own level. I suppose they're in the program, you have your certain time set frame you have to do it. I don't know if they continue to do it after that. I know some do and it's--even the monotonous art work, there's stuff that's monotonous--they just get involved. Wood carving is very, very repetitive. It takes hours and hours to carve out something. It gets 02:03:00their minds off stuff and makes them feel like they accomplished something when they're working on it. I get so buried in it. I'll start a project and my girlfriend will come out, "It's three o'clock in the morning, are you coming to bed?" "Yeah, I'll be in!" It's like I gotta get this thing done. I do, I go overboard a lot but I love doing art and that's what I'm going to continue to do. So to be under this Chapter Thirty-One which is [inaudible] rehab which is another thing. You're supposed to be ten percent connected to be eligible to go on in school because my GI Bill didn't pan out. After so many years and 02:04:00thousands of dollars I paid in for it, it didn't work. I went under chapter thirty-one and after the senator got involved because they denied me.

[File 2]

At that time I was ninety percent service connected. I asked her, "What is this program for?" The whole point is to help veteran get back on his feet and back into the employment field. Ten percent and I'm at ninety? I think I qualify. Anyway, I ended up getting so that's when I started going to school. I enjoy being in school. That's why I wanted to go part time so I could stay. Full time is way too much for me because my TBI. I just can't--see, I'm naturally good at art so I do very well but then you'll stick me into a class where you gotta use your computers and that's where I still do very well but it takes me hours and 02:05:00hours and hours of studying. Sometimes I gotta read things seven times to get the meaning and the understanding out of it. It's weird but that's how it is. I struggle through writing papers and stuff. I do very well but it takes me--if a student spent two hours on it, I'd spend two days on it. I won't settle for the best that I can do. I've always been that way.

It goes back to BNOC [Basic Non Commissioned Officer Course]. I was one of the youngest students in BNOC the day I walked in the door to go to BNOC. First sergeant looks at me, he goes, "Ten level is across the street." That's why I said I was one of the youngest E6's. "I've already been through Ten level. I'm here for the basic leadership school." "You're in the wrong building." I said, 02:06:00"No, I'm not." So he called his sergeant major up. "Yeah, he's supposed to be there." Right on the phone to my sergeant major he goes, "He'll never make it." He hangs up with him, he goes, "Alright, I'll give you a couple of days here and you'll be out. Done. You think you're smart?" "Whatever first sergeant, we'll see." It was the toughest course, it was sixty-eight juliet school. It was one of the toughest courses, six months long. It was wall locker inspections and all that stuff for six months. You get to graduation day, first sergeant comes out there. Course they giving out undergrad [??], guess who was undergrad [??]. He comes up to me in front of the formation and drops and gave me pushups. That was 02:07:00fun. Fifty pushups he gave me. He says, "I learnt something from you. I'll never doubt a soldier again." I don't know, I enjoyed my military. I've said bad things but all in all the experience was--wouldn't change a thing. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, that's the way I am.

BROOKS: Great.

HARTWIG: I'm just going to do my art thing and enjoy life, I guess. See what the next road goes down. Hopefully it's the art world.

BROOKS: It seems like you've been pretty successful so far. That's exciting.

HARTWIG: Especially the last two years. Been very good. I hope I get on the travelling art show that Tim Mayer has done. Hopefully I'm the main body of the artworks.

BROOKS: Is there anything else that we didn't cover? I'm sure there's a lot of other things that we could talk about but anything that you feel is important to include.

HARTWIG: No, I guess--like I said I could talk for weeks and weeks.

BROOKS: How about any advice for folks who are starting to struggle with PTSD or people who want to explore art as a--

HARTWIG: Don't feel that you can't go get help. Post-traumatic stress disorder you're gonna hide it, that's the natural thing to do. There's people out there 02:09:00that have it, the same as you and don't be afraid to go get help because you're gonna eventually get that help or something's going to happen, that's worse than if you would've got the help. Whether you need to go into a program, that's beside the point. Just getting involved with other veterans, talking about it, or non-veterans and people that listen but that's--you gotta choose and pick them and most people don't want to hear it or understand it. But there's people out there that do. Just gotta find them. Therapy, go to therapy. I go to therapy. I should go more but I go once a month at least. They want me to go more but at first you couldn't get in. Now they want you more and more and more. Things are changing which is good. Positive is coming out of all the negative.

BROOKS: Great. Well I really appreciate you talking with us and I'm excited about your work and the exhibit. If you think of anything else or we need to talk again I'd be happy sit down with you. I'm going to go ahead and turn these off.

HARTWIG: Okay.

[End of interview]