Oral History Interview with Elizabeth Benn

[Interview Begins]

SPRAGUE: Today is October 17, 2019. This is an interview with Elizabeth Benn, who served in the United States Army from May 3, 1977 to September 2008. Elizabeth entered the service as Elizabeth Adney [??]. On her first marriage she became Elizabeth Wasek[??], and on her second marriage she became Elizabeth Benn. This interview is being conducted by Luke Sprague at the central location of the Madison Public Library for the I Am Not Invisible Project of the Wisconsin Veterans Museum. No one else is present in the interview room. For the listener, we will be building on the Real Life Library interview Battles of Bazooka Beth, published on YouTube in 2019. First of all, do you go by Elizabeth of Beth? W--

BENN: Generally Beth.

SPRAGUE: Okay, Beth. First off, about when and where were you born?

BENN: [XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX]

SPRAGUE: Okay. And tell me a little bit about your growing up.

BENN: My father was a very dedicated journalist, and during the 1960s and '70s, if one were to look back at US history, there were a lot of changing times, and he thoroughly believed in reporting the news as it was, which even in those days was not always viewed favorably by the owners of the newspaper, and so we moved around a lot. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Um, there were a lot of, uh job changes. Um, we--I-- didn't realize it until I had enlisted, but we always seemed to live along the Mississippi River. Um, and when I went in the Army then I was first at Fort McClellan, Alabama, and one of the first things that hit me was, my gosh, where's the river? There's no 00:02:00water around here, you know.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: And it was very odd. Um, but growing up, um, as I mentioned, moving around a lot, um, because of my dad's job, um, and a lot of things that I didn't understand at the time, um, but as I became an adult, um, a lot of things that I really came to appreciate about my father, um, and the stand that he took in the '60s and '70s for, um, civil rights, Vietnam, politics from back then, Watergate, Elvis Presley, everything, you know, back then was, um, there were just so many things going on. Um, and he believed in not, um, detouring from the facts, and he w-- also just reported things that he saw, reported facts with no 00:03:00opinion, no--no intent to influence anyone. He just presented, this is what happened, and left the reader to draw their own conclusion.

SPRAGUE: Wow. So anything else in terms of civil rights or any of those issues that you'd like to expand on, uh, your father and what he did or--?

BENN: Um, he was very, um, open-minded and progressive for the day. Um, after I finished fifth grade, I believe it was 1970, we moved to very far southeast Missouri, um, as it would turn out, the same town that Rush Limbaugh, the Limbaugh family is from. Um, and just saying that, you can probably gather where--I--that was probably the longest place that I lived as a child, uh, 00:04:00through my middle and high school years. Um, but we were--we were called yankees. We were from the north. Send all your hippies up north if they didn't want to go to Vietnam, and, you know, and, um, of course, you know, Blacks were not at all considered equal. Um, we didn't--we didn't have an awful lot of Hispanics, um, in--in--at least in the world that I lived in. Um, we didn't have the--the immigration, um, matters that we face now. Um, so it was, you know - and of course, the civil rights issue, uh, was mostly focused on--on Black people, um, not so much any other race or culture at the time.

Um, there was a--a young priest. I grew up in the Episcopal church. There was a young priest that, uh, became very good friends with my father. Um, and they--he 00:05:00would--he would travel with my father to report on things. My dad would get him a press pass, um, so that he could go into things. And they worked very well together. They--they presented issues, faced issues, um, and--and then l-- what the priest would see when he was with my father at--at press events, um, he would present that in the church on Sunday mornings, you know. And--and it would enlighten other people then to things that were going on. Um, and of course as a child I--I didn't understand that, but, um, later in life, and actually, when my father died, that priest came back, um, came to my father's funeral and spent considerable time talking about things then that really, really helped me 00:06:00understand a lot about my childhood and even the times that we were living in then.

SPRAGUE: And what town was that in southeast Missouri?

BENN: Cape Girardeau.

SPRAGUE: Cape Girardeau, okay.

BENN: Yup.

SPRAGUE: Um, and tell me, if you can, eh, uh, how 'bout your mother? Tell me if you can anything.

BENN: My mother grew up on a farm in northwest Illinois. Um, my dad was across the river in Iowa in a small town. Um, but my mother's father then, he always referred to my dad as a city boy, which, if you saw the small town in Iowa, [laughs] it was like three stop signs in the middle of a bunch of cornfields. Um, so it was far from any sort of city, but to my--my mom's father, being a--you know, a lifelong farmer, he was--grew up on a farm and, you know, all he knew all his life was farming. Um, and so, um, my mom, eh, like so many farmers, 00:07:00um, they're very conservative leaning. Um, and my--growing up, my mom would tell me things, you know, like, that, uh, when you're old enough to vote, it's no one's business who you vote for or what you believe. You know, you--you do what you feel is right by, you know, what--what you consider right and wrong. Um, and of course then as a child I never really understood that until much later, and even today more so than ever probably, um, understanding how, you know, just everything between Democrats and Republicans, you know, and--and it's just gotten so totally out of hand in the recent years that it's mind-blowing.

But, um, so back to my childhood. Didn't really understand the differences in how they saw things, and of course, as a child I wouldn't have known who voted for who between my parents. Th-- it wasn't really talked about. Um, but I--it stuck with me all my life, my mom telling me that, you know, you do what you feel is right for you, and you don't have to tell anybody who you voted for. It's no one's business. And that was just something that stuck with me forever and ever. Um, and okay, so my mom being a farm girl, we had a big garden plot. We grew a lot of our own vegetables and everything through the summertime. Summers I spent on the farm with my grandparents. I had a lot of cousins, um, my 00:09:00mom's family, I think there were six of them, and, uh, uh, she was the oldest, so she was the first one to leave home. Um, and it was always said that my grandfather was resentful because, uh, well, I'm sure no--no parent--well, every parent, I'm sure, has, uh, some degree of concern when their child is getting married if, you know, for the right reasons and the right person and everything. Um, but my grandfather, not only was it a city boy, but, um, he didn't do things like my grandfather could do.

My grandfather could fix any car. He could build a house. He could build the barn. He could fix the plumbing, the electrical, you know, one of those sorts of person who could just do everything, um, mostly out of necessity. Um, but my 00:10:00father then couldn't so any of those things. And on top of all that, my grandmother worked at a GE [General Electric] factory in town, and so she was not there. And when the kids came home from school or when there was no school, it was my mother who was responsible for the younger children. And of course, then when she married and left home, they lost the babysitter. So that was another point of contention in the whole relationship, not that it was a bad relationship, and we all got along, but there were always these little digs at my father that, um, it took me till I was an adult, I guess, to really, really understand everything, um, that went on in those times.

SPRAGUE: So growing up, um, what was your schooling like, and--and what was that experience about?

BENN: I, for some reason, was always rebellious. I was always a tomboy. I didn't 00:11:00like school. I didn't do well in school. It didn't come naturally. Um, and one of the only reasons that I did stay in school, um, that I did finish high school, um, was I learned when I was sixteen that I--I guess I knew from, I don't know, lets' say fifteen or so I had planned on going in the Army, um, just as a way out. Um, I knew that I wasn't going to college, at least not right away. Um, I just wanted a way. Um, it was the mid-'70s. Um, in those days a lot of kids ran away from home, not necessarily for any reason. It was just sort of the trendy thing to do. I look back now on a lot of the--a lot of my close 00:12:00friends who did run away from home, they had what I saw as, you know, fantastic childhoods, you know. They--they weren't living in poverty. Their parents got along great. They didn't fight. Um, they didn't have, you know, problems that one would expect that would cause a child to want to run away from home. It was just sort of what everybody was doing at the time. Um, and I--

SPRAGUE: Do--

BENN: -- watched them, and I didn't really think that that was going to be the answer for me. It wasn't something that I wanted to do. But I knew that I did want to get away. Um, and as the war in Vietnam was dying down, um, and looking at what my options were, you know, waitressing or, you know, doing something mindless, really, not to denigrate those who work in that field, um, but in this 00:13:00mid-'70s, um, girls didn't have an awful lot of options. Um, and even joining the military was not considered, um, like a--a worthy option either. Um, so but I had decided just, um--I don't know--I really don't know why. It wasn't any strong sense of patriotism or anything. Um, and it wasn't like my life was so horrible that I needed to run away, um, I just had decided that that was what I was going to do. Um, and then I learned when I was sixteen and [laughs] pulling probably a--a striking C-D average in high school, um, um, I learned that--that girls had to be diploma graduates. You couldn't be a dropout. You couldn't be a 00:14:00GED recipient. You had to be a diploma graduate or even the Army wouldn't take you. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah, tell me--tell me a little bit more about that. If you can.

BENN: Um, I think that there were--there were a lot of different standards in those days between the genders. Um, eh, you know, the--the draft had just ended. Um, and so the--you know, the draft only applied to men. Um, the Army historically has been known as, you know, the people are there--you know, you're cannon fodder. You're--you're infantrymen. You're--you're not going to survive. You know, or the chances are, you know, you're--the Army historically, everybody is expendable. Um, and so I think--and this is just my opinion--I think that, 00:15:00again, I--I want to stress, it's just my opinion how I saw things then, but you know, they didn't want women--women weren't considered expendable. They weren't gonna be in the infantry. They--they needed to be a little bit better than, or maybe it was simply just a--a way to discourage women from joining, I'm not really sure. But, um, um, among the differences in--in standards at the time in the mid-'70s.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So what did your--what did your family think about this? Did they know, when--when you were fifteen or sixteen that you had this idea in your head already and--?

BENN: They did.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: They did. Um, and because I was always hat rebellious kid and because I didn't do well in school, um, I remember one time we--we did a lot of camping 00:16:00trips and things with, um, one of my mom's sisters, the--the second, uh--the second in line, the next oldest to my mom, my aunt and her family, we--we did a lot of things together, the two families. Um, and I remember one night all the kids were in one tent, um, and the parents were still awake and around the campfire. And I remember--and by this point I was probably fifteen or sixteen, I remember hearing my aunt telling my mom that, uh, I better learn to be a good cook because there probably wasn't much else that I would be capable of. [laughs] And I mean, nobody saw me as having any great deal of potential. I was 00:17:00just that troubled kid, you know, and I didn't see it at the time, but I think that my dad was probably--probably saw that I had more t-- more potential than anyone else did. Um, and I think he was secretly on my side, um, but just wasn't gonna argue with my mom over it.

Um, and when the--I--I didn't really know that, um--that if they--if I were to go in before I turned 18, I--I didn't know if they would be supportive, if they would sign for me. Um, but when it came to it, uh, there was--there was no resistance. They were, [laughs] I guess, happy to sign. Um, and I guess, you know, the mentality in those days, and maybe even still today is, you know, let 'em join the military. Maybe they'll straighten them out, you know. [laughs] So 00:18:00it was a lot of that. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: So tell me about, uh, the actual enlistment process and how that went for you, entering the Army.

BENN: Um, the actually day that I decided that I would enlist, um, I had talked to some recruiters here and there, but I think they weren't really--most of them were not, uh, interested in talking to a--a girl who was still in high school, you know. So there weren't many who took me seriously. Um, I finished high school a semester early. Um, probably partly because I thought it would allow me to enlist sooner and because the quicker I could get it over with, you know, the better it was going to be for me. Um, so I had finished a semester early by 00:19:00doing, um, summer school, and, um, I took some vo-tech. Back then it was vocation technical school. It would be the equivalent of Madison College now. Um, but back then it was a vo-tech school, and the high school that I was in, um, partnered with the vo-tech school that was very, very new in Cape Girardeau. Um, and they allowed, um--allowed some of the students to take classes in the vo-tech school in lieu of the high school classes. Now it's much more common, um, but back then it was something--just a novel, new idea. [laughs]

And of course, what I got into was a food service program, which, um, not just the cooking, but you had to learn all the--the health code, the safety, um, and 00:20:00the--the buying, the inventory, you know. You learned the whole planning and operation of--of restaurant business, not just being a cook. Um, and--and I--again, I don't even really know why I took that. Maybe because of what I had heard my aunt say. Um, maybe because there weren't that many choices offered to--to girls fresh out of high school back then. Um, I really don't know why I chose that, but, um, I did. [laughs] It helped me build credits, um, especially for the classes that I--there weren't a lot. Um, there were one or two classes in high school that I had failed, but, um, I was able to, um, pull my grades and my credits up so that I graduated not only on time but a semester early.

Um, and then when I thought that I could enlist, um, before the actual graduation date, uh, the school would not release my diploma. They said that I hadn't really graduated until I came back at the end of the spring semester, [laughs] and walked the stage. Then I would be considered an actual graduate. [laughs] Um--

SPRAGUE: I'll bet that was frustrating.

BENN: Yes, yes, but at the time it was just like, you know, okay, that's--that's normal. That's the way it was then.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, so, yes, frustrating. But, um, um, I was able to actually enlist, but it was contingent on me going back a month later and, um, finishing. At the time I was working. Um, by then my dad, um, had been fired from, uh, the paper in--in Cape Girardeau, and, uh, had decided to buy the newspaper in, uh, a town where 00:22:00he had lived part of his life as a child, the town that my grandfather grew up in in northeast Iowa. Um, that would be McGregor, um, where--where the original Pikes Peak Park is. [laughs] Um, along the Mississippi again.

Um, so anyway, uh, when I finished, I--I lived the first semester, that summer and the first semester of my senior year, at the age of seventeen I--I lived on my own. Um, I found out that by Iowa school standards, I would had to have gone a full semester extra. I would had to have done the second semester of my high school year plus an additional semester because Iowa, um, a lot of people don't realize, but Iowa, throughout the years, always had a--a strong school system 00:23:00than a lot of other states. And so by Iowa standards, I needed another full school year, and so clearly I was gonna stay in Missouri no matter what, um, and go with that plan so that I could graduate early. Um, so that summer and that first semester I lived on my own, um, as a high school senior. [laughs] Again, like, by today's standards you would be considered abandoned, and the state would have been all over my parents and me and everything else, you know, but as we say, it was the '70s. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, so I was in northeast Iowa. Um, I didn't really know anyone. You know, I was--I was making some friends, but then as a seventeen-year-old where everybody else is in school, what do you do, you know? Um, so I was working as a 00:24:00waitress for a whopping ninety-five cents an hour plus tips. And in those days, if, you know, even twenty bucks a day in tips, I thought I was, you know, queen of the world. [laughs] So the recruiters stopped in after they'd been in at the high school and, uh, stopped for some coffee on their way back to Dubuque where the recruiting station was, and, uh, they started asking me some questions. And days later I was down at the recruiting office, and, uh, as I mentioned, I signed the contracts, but it was all contingent on me going back to Missouri a month later and walking the stage and getting that actual diploma. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: So--which I did. I--I, you know, had looked forward to going back, um, to Missouri and seeing my friends and doing the whole graduation thing anyway. But I was rather floored by the fact that they didn't even consider my enlistment 00:25:00valid until I did that.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: So tell me about then, um, you talk about in the, uh, Real Life interview, you talk about a taxi ride to Du-- in Des Moines [inaudible]--

BENN: Uh, that was in Des Moines.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, well, let's back up--

SPRAGUE: In the sequence, okay, yeah.

BENN: -- just a little bit.

SPRAGUE: Okay, yeah, what did we miss there, yeah?

BENN: Um, so when I--when I went to, um, MEPS [Military Entrance Processing Station], in Des Moines, it would have been, um, and I think that might have been my very first airplane ride as well.

SPRAGUE: Oh, really?

BENN: They flew me, um, from Dubuque to Des Moines, and, um, I'm 99 percent certain that was my very first plane ride. And of course, it was the '70s, you know, people didn't--air travel wasn't that big then. Um, but anyway, uh, that was just a side note. Um, so, uh, I did all the testing, the physical and all 00:26:00that. Um, I--much to my surprise, I scored very well on the ASVAB [Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery]. Um, I remember that my GT [General Technical] score was 120. And I was told that that could get me anything I wanted. [laughs] And I--I had also scored high in, like, mechanical and other typically not female-oriented at the time jobs and--and skills. Um, I credit a lot of that because growing up, I had mentioned that I--I--ever free chance I had, um, especially in the s-- all of summer break I would spend on the farm with my grandpa, and I would work with him and do whatever he did. When I was eleven years old, he decided it would be useful for me if I could run errands for him, um, and he fixed up one of the old cars that sat behind the barn, and 00:27:00that was my car for the summers to drive on. There were, like, three farms, um, in a certain radius, all on gravel roads with not much traffic, and everybody knew everybody. And if I could run errands between the farms for him, [laughs] I was really useful.

So at age eleven, obviously no license or anything, um, I had my own car. [laughs] And, um, I also--I drove tractors. Um, I learned how to do some basic maintenance things on both my car and, um, um, on--on the tractors and on the equipment. Um, I--I had also--I was probably ten when I started driving the tractor around the farms. Um, and I would also, uh, help grandpa build things. So I, um, had a lot of experience in that. So maybe that's why I scored high on 00:28:00those things. Um, or maybe I just had a natural inclination, which is why I didn't like school and all of these subjects that were pushed on--on girls at the time. Um, I did in my senior year, I took, um, what we called in those days shop class. And, uh, there were only, probably not even half a dozen girls, um, that were in the class. Um, but we had learned to--not learned, we did. We made a scaled down corner of a house. We plumbed it. We put in the electrical. We roofed it, um, framed it, everything, put in a window, you know, everything that you would do but on a smaller scale for just a corner of a house. And I had decided, you know, wow, I really like this. I like carpentry. This is really cool. I want to be able to build my own things and do my--whatever I wanted, you 00:29:00know, without having to be reliant on--on other people.

Um, and so when I went to MEPS, I was determined, you know, one of the recruiters had mentioned that carpentry was a job in the Army. [laughs] And, um, to this day I honestly don't know if it was entirely factual or if it was the opinion of someone at MEPS that, uh--that I shouldn't be in the carpentry field. My test scores substantiated it, and, um, but I was told that, uh--that carpentry was off limits to girls, [laughs] that only men--and mind you, those were the terms that were used, you know, even if it was an eighteen-year-old boy, he was a man, and he could do it, but you're a girl, and it's not allowed. [laughs] So all those, uh, differences, um, in standards then, um, and whether 00:30:00it was factual or just the opinion of that person that I dealt with in MEPS, I was told that I could not go into carpentry. So I decided that--and I was told, you know, like, here's what's available. You know, you can be a nurse. You can be an MP. Or you can be an admin. And I'd had a good friend who, her older brother, um, enlisted in the Army, rather than being drafted, and then he had a little more say in what he did. And he had been in, at the time they called it personnel management, now they call it human resources management, um, but he had been in HR [human resources], and he did, I don't know, probably a three- or four-year hitch, and when he left the Army, int eh '70s, he became--he settled in Janesville and became, uh, a big HR director at GM [General Motors] [laughs].

So I thought, okay, well, if you won't let me do what I want, um, I'll--I'll go the--I'll go with personnel management, and by the way, since there was no rush to go do what I wanted to do, it was, uh, also happened to be the longest, um, uh, wait to ship out for that--for that MOS [Military Occupational Specialty], for that job. Um, so that bought me time till after Christmas and New Year's, um, and as I had mentioned in Real Life Library, you know, like, all this longing to get away from home suddenly wasn't as important when it was right there in front of me. Um, and I--I just thought, you know, well, okay, if I can't have what I want, then I'm going to drag my feet in going. I'm going to go back home and enjoy things and--and then then I'll leave after the holidays. Um, 00:32:00which was probably a very smart move on my part. I don't know if, uh--it certainly wasn't a--a planned or intended decision, but, um, looking back, you know, to have been away over Christmas and that, um--and I was the second oldest in my family. Um, so you know, it just would have been really awkward and unusual, um, and probably would have changed or influenced, um, things as I went through the Armo-- Army in future years.

Um, so all in all, it turned out to be a good decision. Um, and then so the taxi ride in MEPS that I had talked about in Real Life Library, um, so it would have been my third plane ride because, [laughs] my--my second plane ride was, um, one of the customers, one of the regulars at the--the restaurant where I worked in 00:33:00McGregor, uh, I think he was an attorney, and I forget what I his wife. I just remember she was unusual to me because she was a woman who had a job, a career. Um, um, but they also happened to be, uh--they had private pilot's license, and they owned an airplane, a small--small aircraft. Um, and when they heard that I--you know, small town and probably I talked to regular patrons in the restaurant, um, I don't remember how it all fell into place, but they offered, for the cost of the fuel, they would fly me down to Missouri, um, from northeast Iowa, uh, um, fly me down there, uh, so that I--I--I think I spent at least a 00:34:00week, maybe a little bit longer, I went back for the, uh, uh, like, the senior trip and, um, some other things that were going on, probably. It was too late for prom. I don't know, just some other things that were going on in the--the week or two leading up to graduation. Um, and it was either, like, fifteen hours on a Greyhound or, gee, you'll fly me for the price of the gas? Sure. [laughs]

So anyway, my--and then of course my parents were down there for graduation and everything, and so I had gone back home with them. But, um, so the second trip to Des Moines was, um, the--a day or two before I would, uh, fly to Fort McClellan, Alabama for basic. Um, and the person who picked me up at the airport, uh, in the taxi that MEPS had arranged, uh, it was a--a younger man, 00:35:00um, probably mid-twenties. And he was another one who, uh, um, volunteered to go in the Army rather than wait to be drafted. And he was able to choose, um, going to Germany rather than going to Vietnam. And he was, uh--this would have been January of 1978. Um, so you know, women still--not many in the Army. Not many were choosing to go, even men. You know, of course, you know, the draft has just ended. A war has just ended, so even young men weren't that interested in joining the Army at the time. And he thought it was really cool, and he turned off the meter, and he drove me all around Des Moines and telling me stories about his time in the Army, um, and in Germany.

And of course, I had never thought about, what? Germany? Another country? Like, I only thought I'd get, you know, a state or two away. [laughs] It never crossed my mind that I could be that far from home. Um, and of course, my first duty assignment then would be Germany. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. So what was your experience in 1978, uh, at Fort McClellan? What was that like for basic training?

BENN: In Real Life Library I didn't go into anything that was really, um, dramatic or harsh, um, especially because I knew that there might be, um, people bringing their children. Um, and there was one, uh, young person--I hate to say the word girl, but I believe she was twelve. Um, and her book review of my story 00:37:00was, um, that she felt very capable. And I tried to present things as just humorous. Um, you know, I didn't go into things like the drill sergeant creeping in the barracks room at night, and, um, mind you, there's no way that any female could enter basic training being pregnant because they screened for all those things. And you're gonna get a lot of shots and, um, you know, it just wouldn't happen. And the only male that we encountered in those two months was our ever-trusty drill sergeant. Two of my colleagues in basic training ended up pregnant. [laughs] The drill sergeant came creeping around the room at night. 00:38:00The drill sergeant had his favorites. Um, and we were told, though, you know, if you dare say anything, you'll get a dishonorable discharge. You'll never be able to do anything in life if you have a dishonorable discharge. We n-- didn't know any better. You know, um, obviously everyone was there for a reason, and the reason was not to get sent home with a dishonorable discharge.

So we--everybody pulled the blankets over your eyes, and you didn't see anything. Nothing--nothing happened. You know, we just had that objective, you know, and--and we were terrified. We didn't know what could happen if we said anything. Um, and one of the stories that I did go into with Real Life Library, um, it did happen, um, but I think that he knew from the beginning that he 00:39:00couldn't mess with me. Um, but he--I mean, predators, they know their prey, you know, whether it's an animal or a person with bad intentions. They--they can find the easy ones. Um, so, um, he always had a--he was basically out to get me from probably week two. And, um, um, it would start with--I--I was also a non-smoker, and for teens in the '70s, a non-smoker, [laughs] you know, it--it just didn't happen. [laughs] Um, but anyway, I--I was just never a smoker, and, um, so when everyone else, including the drill sergeants, but everybody in the 00:40:00entire platoon, um, everybody would stop for a smoke break, um, he would try to make me do things like police call or go do this or go do some push-ups. You know, do something productive, you know, if--if you're not smoking.

And I'm pretty sure I was probably the only person who didn't smoke out of probably forty other women, um, and all the cadre, all the staff. Um, so after a couple of days of that, it was like, hmm, that handy-dandy little green bible that fits in your pocket that they gave you at MEPS. So when everybody else started taking smoke breaks, I'd pull that out. And I would, no, I'm sorry, I'm--I've got some reading to do. I've got something productive to do. Kiss my ass, only in those days you didn't say it. But that was basically--[laughs] And so then he found that, you know, he couldn't mess with me. Um, and something 00:41:00else like going back to the '60s and '70s, um, in school, um, even in elementary school, uh, teachers used the paddle on kids who didn't behave. And so I was used to my share of, [laughs] you know, and--and I knew that if I did certain things, that was probably gonna be the outcome. Sometimes it just didn't really matter.

But I learned in grade school that, um, like, the boys--of course, I was a big tomboy, and I would always do things, you know, played more with the boys than I would the girls, and, um, I--we would get in trouble. And I--I quickly learned that if I walked back into the classroom and I wasn't crying, but the boys, that we all got in trouble together, they were crying, you know, like, ooh, that 00:42:00really got under the teacher's skin, and it make other people look at me differently. Like, whoa, you know. [laughs] And so that mentality followed me into the Army and probably all my life, um, not necessarily a good quality, but, um, I know there were a lot of times in my life that that served me well, um, where I could show that, you know, you--you won't break me with that nonsense, you know. Um, and that's pretty much how it was in--in basic training.

Um, and when he--when the drill sergeant couldn't, you know, get to me, you know, with other things, I--I also found that, um, like, going to church was another safe place that, you know, you--you couldn't be touched. They could not deny you the right to go to church. Um, so I started doing that. Um, and it 00:43:00wasn't a total scam. I grew up, um, as I mentioned, in the Episcopal Church, and it was something, you know, in high school, like, ugh, nobody wants to go, but you're forced to go, you know, and things that you don't appreciate at the time, but later in life you do. Um, um, so one of the--one of the things in basic, um, there were, you know, my--my counterparts, they all felt a need to get up early and put on makeup and do this and that, you know. And I just didn't see the need for it. Like, my goodness, you know. You're gonna go out and roll in the mud, and you're gonna get sweaty, and you're gonna have to do this and that and whatever. And, um, I just saw no point in trying to get cute. So I got an extra fifteen, twenty minutes of sleep. And apparently some of the girls complained 00:44:00about it, um, or maybe just the drill sergeant observed that and decided it was another way that he could mess with me. I really don't know. Um, but I got written up for it. I wasn't a team player because I--and I--I didn't get up on time.

Um, and, uh, so he tried to make me out to be, like, this lazy, you know, slacker. And, um, I forget exactly how it went. You know, of course, it was a long time ago, but, um, I was still the--the smart aleck, and, um, I had suggested--well, I got called into the senior drill sergeant's office, and she had only heard the one side of it, which of course wasn't good, and, um, I made the suggestion that if the other girls spent less time trying to look cute for the drill sergeant, maybe they could get a little more sleep too. And, you know, 00:45:00I mean, nobody could say, well, you--your bunk wasn't squared away. You're uniform's--you know, your--your--everything was ironed. Um, you know, everything was as it should be. I just managed to sleep in a little bit longer, you know. Um, in today's world I like to think that maybe the person who could manage to get things done and still sleep a little more would--would share that method with other people rather than being criticized for it. Um, but so the senior drill had only heard the one side of it, and of course believed that. And when I explained my side of it, she called the drill sergeant in, you know, to say, you know, hey, what's goin' on here? And it was then that I suggested that, um, if they didn't try to look cute for him, that maybe they too could get a little more sleep, which was not the right thing to say. [laughs]

Um, but it made for a--a humorous story. Um, and, um, let's see. So where were 00:46:00we going?

SPRAGUE: We were talking about basic training.

BENN: Yeah. Um, another thing that happened then was, I don't know why, but for some reason we never got the pre-training for the live grenade range. And apparently some of us had caught on to that, and we had been talking in the barracks, um, you know, in the evenings while we're shining boots or scrubbing the floor with toothbrushes or whatever, um, you know, we were like, wait a minute. Cause, you know, we heard, like, well, the company, you know, in the next room over, they're--they had all this other training that we didn't, and now we're going in the morning, you know, or the next, you know, two days later whenever, you know, for this training, and we--you know, the live exercise, and we haven't even touched the dummy. [laughs] And so he got wind of--of us being 00:47:00concerned about that, and again, there were the threats that if we said anything, that we would be kicked out with a dishonorable discharge and we would never be able to do anything in our lives with this horrible mark on our record. And of course, we didn't know any better. We didn't know, you know. All we knew was, [laughs] that end objective. Whatever it takes, we're gonna graduate. And you know, so okay, we'll shut up. We won't say anything, and we'll just go do it, and, well, I guess we watched other people, watch the foxhole over and see what they're doin' and try to go along. [laughs]

By some miracle no one was hurt, and we got through it. Um, but there was always that, that threat, you know. And, um, you know, him covering his mistakes by 00:48:00putting it on us that if something goes wrong, you will suffer, not me, and that to this day that--that hangs over me, you know. Um, so anyway, um, there were--there were a number of incidences like that where, uh, we had to carry his mess up, um, and especially on something like live grenade range. Good grief, you know, that's--[laughs]

SPRAGUE: That's dangerous.

BENN: Yes, yes. But he didn't 'see it that way. [laughs] So, um--

SPRAGUE: Anything else on basic?

BENN: It started with, uh, you did ten--ten push-ups for anything that you got called out and punished for. It was ten push-ups for each week of training you were in. So the first week ten, the second week twenty, and mind you, this can happen several times a day. [laughs] I, um, yeah, it was, uh, ten weeks of basic 00:49:00training, and by the time I was finished I could do a hundred push-ups two or three times a day.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: And, uh, that also--well, for a number of years served me well, um, because then, you know, in a unit where, you know, the men are thinking, ooh, the women are slackers and blah, blah, blah, well, even, goodness, the--the standards, we had totally different, um, physical fitness standards, um, and testing. Uh, when I first enlisted we didn't do the two-mile run. Uh, the women were stood in a formation, you know, like four by five people or whatever it was. And in cadence, you ran, I think it was a hundred steps in this direction. 00:50:00Then somebody called right face, and you ran a hundred in that direction, and all the way around till you came back. And it was actually five hundred beats, you know, of your left foot, and that was our fitness. We didn't go out and do a run, but that was our equivalent. We had to do the run, dodge, and jump. I don't recall if that was a standard for the men or not. We had to do sit-ups. And we did the modified push-up, which then they called it the girls' push-up, on your knees. Um, so yeah, the--there were countless ways that women were--had different standards than men. Um, and you know, within--within my first enlistment I'm pretty sure that it changed within the first enlistment within a few years after I had been in.

Um, but anyway, those differences, another thing was while we were at Fort 00:51:00McClellan and we're getting issued our uniforms, the men were being--the new recruits, [laughs] the guys were given permanent press uniforms. The women were not. [laughs] And we had classes on how to properly starch and iron your uniforms. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: And so that much more time that you had to spend in the evenings instead of just throwing them in the laundry and on a hanger, like the men could do, we had to be able to iron and do it just so. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Were there differences in the uniforms?

BENN: Yes, yes, yes.

SPRAGUE: How were they different?

BENN: Um, we had what they referred to as the jungle fatigues from Vietnam, and it was, uh, like a ripstop canvas. And the permanent press were a totally different fabric. And they also were tucked into the pants, um, where the 00:52:00women's, the--they were like the BDUs [battle dress uniform] are now where it, you know, the top comes over the pants and not tucked in. Um, we had the pants buttoned up the left side. Um, they didn't, you know, zip or button up the front. [laughs] like pants. And I even remember, um, like in the '60s a lot of pants for girls, they were either pull-on or they had side zippers. They didn't have front zippers like clothing for--for boys or men. [laughs] Um, and even back in grade school, um, girls could not wear pants to school. And we lived in northern Illinois, and even on your snowiest day, no matter how cold it was, you could wear snow pants to school, but the minute you came through that door, 00:53:00before you got in your classroom, those snow pants came off, and you better have a nice dress on. [laughs]

So yeah, things like that, and, um, it--a lot of things like that carried over even into the 2000s. I--I think that it is changed by now, but, um, when I retired in '80, I'm 99 percent certain that it was still the standard for a woman, if you were, for your official photo for your records or for a promotion board or if you were appearing in person in a promotion board, like they did on active duty, you had to be in your class-As, but it had to be the skirt. The women, even though once we finally got them, which probably didn't happen till well in the '80s, um, when we had slacks authorized as part of our uniform, it 00:54:00was not allowed for official purposes. If it was anything big going on, you could not wear your slacks, even though it was an authorized uniform.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: [laughs] So, but anyway, so back to basic, um, somehow managed to get through it and, um, went on to AIT [advanced individual training]. And of course, you know, you keep people confined, you know, for ten weeks. I didn't get a break between, uh, uh, basic and AIT, went straight on from Fort McClellan to Indianapolis where, at the time, we had Fort Benjamin Harrison.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: And that was also the, uh--the finance center for, I think all of DOD [Department of Defense], not just the Army. And I remember, like, when I transferred from there to Indianapolis and the defense finance service, [laughs] 00:55:00guess where I developed my first pay problem? [laughs] Right there in Indianapolis.

SPRAGUE: Oh, no.

BENN: [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Tell me about that.

BENN: Um, well, you had a lot of young women who had been couped up for ten weeks, at least. Um, we were suddenly mixed then with young men. There were also older men who were reclassifying into new MOSs [military occupational specialty] who were there. Um, there were soda machines that carried beer in them in the day room. [laughs] Um, yeah, beer machines, cigarette machines, all this stuff. Um, so we were also allowed to go to, uh, the enlisted club. Um, so I guess what I'm trying to say is, we had a lot of freedom, and for most of us, you know, um, 00:56:00you went from mom and dad's house to basic training. You know, you go from high school to basic training, and you n-- never really been on your own without supervision. So a lot of us got a little crazy, [laughs] you know, with all that freedom, and, you know, you could walk down in the morning and get a beer if you wanted to, and there's nobody there to tell you it's a bad idea. Um--

SPRAGUE: And was there, uh, drinking on duty? Am I understanding you correctly, that--

BENN: There was, yes.

SPRAGUE: -- y-- you could, yeah? Wow.

BENN: I can't say that it was condoned, but I can't say that it wasn't overlooked. Um, and my first several duty stations on active duty, um, it was nothing to go to lunch and have a few drinks. Um, I can't count how many, probably--probably through my first enlistment every senior NCO 00:57:00[non-commissioned officer], every supervisor that I had had a, in the bottom drawer, there was a fifth of something. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: And you know, it was the '70s, the early '80s. Vietnam was not that far off, you know, and--and so for the--the older ones, you know, I could understand, like, you know, eh, not to justify it, but you could have a little more understanding for those guys, you know, that, like, heck, yeah, you're gonna drink, you know. You just came back from a war, you know. Um, not to make it right or anything, but it--it's how it was. And I think that also had a lot to do with why those things were considered acceptable. Um, but it was also, you know, the corporate culture in the US at the time too, you know, your two-martini business lunches and things like that. It's just the way it was in those days.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, so--

SPRAGUE: What else do you remember from AIT?

BENN: Um, there was less of a difference in standards for the men and the women. Um, I don't recall feeling ever in AIT that--that we were treated differently, that the standards were different. We all had the same work to do. We weren't segregated from the men. Uh, we were--we all had the same work to do, and we were all held to the same standard in our tests and everything. Um, we did have still the separate PT requirements, standards. Um, but it's just the way it was, and, you know, no one would question it. Um, but I--I do remember very distinctly noticing that on the exams for the MOS that I--I recall very 00:59:00distinctly that, you know, for the first time in the Army it's the--and of course, you know, all of two or three months in the Army, but noticing that the standard would be the same academically as it was, um, for the--for the women who were there.

Um, I don't recall any of our instructors being predatory or, um, treating us really differently. Um, so that much was better. Um, I kind of remember, okay, we--maybe we were about halfway through when we were finding out where we were going. And I learned that I was going to Germany. And, um, so I--s-- I remember that I started--it was all--it was a self-pace thing, but you had to finish within a certain timeframe. I believe it was ninety days. Um, and we knew 01:00:00probably at two months, in sixty days where we were going, where our duty station would be. and when I knew that I was going to Germany, [laughs] I remember that I decided, whee-- we'll slow down a little bit, you know, don't try to be the superstar, you know. Cause I wasn't really thrilled about the prospect of going to Germany.

And, um, and then maybe a week or two of that, after I started reversing gears and slowing down, um, then I got a call that, um, the recruiting office in Dubuque had called Indianapolis and said, you know, hey, we want her, you know, to come back and do thirty days of hometown recruiting before she goes to Germany, but we need her, uh, you know, like, two weeks from now. So where I thought I'd drag it out for another month, then I thought--I found myself, you 01:01:00know, like, oh, boy, if you want this, you know, which will ultimately buy you a little more time, [laughs] um, then you got to speed it back up again, um, in order to make the date that they requested me for. So, um, I ended up cramming in that couple of weeks so that I could, um--and it was probably a first of the month thing, looking back, um, and how they go.

Um, and of course it would needed--it would need to be while--while high school--while school was still in session also. Um, so I managed to, um, finish up quickly and, uh, did the thirty days of, uh, hometown recruiting before going to Germany. And that was, uh--

SPRAGUE: Yeah, what was that like?

BENN: Whoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo. Probably the biggest binge I've been on. Um, yeah, we did a lot of recruiting in bars. And, um--

SPRAGUE: Oh.

BENN: -- I remember several times where it led to, um,--and this is in northeast Iowa, all around anywhere from Dubuque to McGregor is not quite but almost in the most northeast corner. But you know, all the small towns around there, you know, and, uh, we'd go hit bars and look for people that weren't working, and I was sort of my recruiter's little, you know, show-off, you know. I'm--I'm a very short person. [laughs] At the time I was five-feet-tall. I've lost a few inches since then. Um, but small, short petite person, and, ooh, a girl, you know. And the thing was, you know, like, he could take me in a bar and, you know, find some big construction worker that was gonna be un-- unemployed, you know, eh, 01:03:00uh, come winter, you know, and, um, you know, he'd use me as an example, and, like, you know, she can do it. You can do it. Come on, you know. [laughs] And, um there--

SPRAGUE: What did you--what did you think of that? How did--

BENN: I guess I--I didn't know any better. And honestly, at the time, I kind of thought it was a compliment, you know. And I remember using that logic on a whole lot of men in my--throughout my career, you know, like, dude, you're six feet tall and you can't out run me? [laughs] You know, um, so it was good and bad, but at the time I didn't really understand, you know, that it was probably not the ideal way to present a young woman in the Army. [laughs] Um, and of course, today all that drinking would just never fly, never. Um, so but there were several times we would leave a bar, somehow the talk would go from like, 01:04:00push-ups and, you know, mean--mean drill sergeants and all that, it would go to, uh, guns and shooting, and, um, we would end up out somewhere, usually on a bridge on some river, small river, [laughs] that--that would be out there between some cornfields or whatever. And we would--so drunk and shooting pistols and rifles. I remember it was the first time I handled a .357. I was drunk off my ass with a recruiter and a couple of construction workers out in the middle of nowhere. [laughs]

And I guess the only way I stayed safe was because I could fire that thing. [laughs] And I could hit a tin can, I don't know, a hundred yards away or 01:05:00whatever. I--I--yeah. And looking back on that, um, it floors me. But it's what we did. And, um, yeah, the recruiter was like, he even applied for me to get an extension, another thirty days of it, because we were having so much fun. [laughs] It was ultimately denied because the two of us never seemed to get anybody to actually sign a contract. [laughter] So yeah. Um--

SPRAGUE: So--

BENN: ¬-- there were some other productive things that we did. Um, we did, uh--I--I learned to repel while I was on hometown recruiting. Um, and we did that from school buildings. I remember one in Monona, Iowa. It was--I think it was a three-level, and, uh, a three-level brick building, and, um, [laughs] they 01:06:00were like, you know, no, no, you can't [laughs]--"You can't be afraid because then the students are gonna pick up on it, and you're gonna fuck it all up for us, so just do it, you know." "But I've never done this before." "There's nothin' to it. Ya--ya grab the rope. Ya hold your hand back here. Ya hold the front with your other hand, and you just go." [laughs] And so I did it. And a couple of other times that we--we did repelling was, um, along the Mississippi from the--the cliffs. And, you know, it was great fun. It was awesome. It was--it was beautiful, you know, and like, you know, whew, okay, I'll do this any day. [laughs] And, um, so yeah, that's--that was hometown recruiting.

And then we, um, of course, there was a big party the night before I was to go to the airport to catch the plane to go to Germany, and, um, I ended up missing 01:07:00the first flight, which caused me to miss the second flight in Philly and, you know, on down the r-- line chain reaction. Um, and somehow, I don't even know, I don't even remember how it all came together, but, um, you know, got rebooked and still made it to, um, my first duty station in time to--yeah, I wasn't late for anything. You know, I think they allowed two or three days or something, and somehow, despite every missed flight, I still made it there on time so I wasn't AWOL [absent without leave], [laughs] which is always a good thing.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: So--

SPRAGUE: So tell me about Germany and your first duty station or--yeah.

BENN: I arrived in Frankfurt, Germany, um, in June of 196-- uh, '60--June of 1978. Um, at that time all of the low-ranking people, you got processed through 01:08:00the twenty-first replacement battalion for further assignment anywhere in Europe, mostly Germany but anywhere in Europe. Um, there again because, um, of my ASVAB scores and, um I think I got some distinction when I finished, um, AIT as well, not like an honor grad or anything, um, but it was noted somewhere that I basically had maxed all the tests or did really well in all of them. Um, so I was offered, um, a job there at the Twenty-First Replacement Battalion, um, as a personnel management specialist to do, um, the interviews and making the assignments, um, for other people. And, you know, it--it seemed like--and I 01:09:00guess it was, it was honor because not everyone is asked to stay, um, at that place, and you had to be kind of in the upper level of--of everybody, um, to--to get that job. Um, otherwise, you know, they're gonna send you out in the middle of nowhere, and [laughs] deal with it.

Um, so there were, um--there were also a few other women that--that, um--that I had been in basic and AIT with. We had kept in touch, mind you, long before email and things like that. Um, so we had kept in touch, and, um, I knew where some of them had went, and the duty stations that they got were not pretty. Um, I remember two of them very, very clearly. Um, they went to an in-- infantry 01:10:00division out in Baumholder, Germany, um, and they were treated brutally, very brutally. [laughs] Um, and I--I regret having lost touch with them, um. We stayed in touch. We got together a few times while I was in Germany then, but after that, after, I don't know who would have left first, but after we left Germany, you know, we just didn't really have any way of staying in touch because of sna-- snail mail and--and all that, you know, and you couldn't keep tabs on people like you can now.

Um, but I've never forgotten those two, [laughs] and I've thought about them often through the years, um, and how--how I got this assignment and they got that, you know, and I--I guess you could say a bit of guilt about that as well. Um, but, uh--

SPRAGUE: What--what were the experiences that they g-- if you're willing to share what--what happened--

BENN: Just not respected, not equal, and one of them very, very brutally raped. Um, you know, you put two pretty young girls in an infantry unit--in-- infantry division where even most of the people in admin and personnel and finance and everything, most of them were men, and I remember being warned before I went to Germany that, um--that American soldiers had a bad reputation for doing bad things to young German girls, young German women, you know. But it--I guess it just never really crossed my mind that, you know--that their colleagues would be 01:12:00treated the same, with such disrespect and just disregard for them as human beings, you know.

I don't understand why--to this day I don't understand why some people treat other people so differently. Um, but yeah, um, and maybe a week or so after I was at my first duty station, at least within two weeks I know the E-7, who was our supervisor, um, he told me that, uh, you know, "Uh, tomorrow morning I'll pick you up at the barracks, and you don't have to be in uniform. I'm gonna take you out to the air base cause everything's better on the air base, you know." [laughs] The air base, of course, is not downtown Frankfurt, which meant we had 01:13:00to drive out of the city and into the country to the airport, right. Um, and I--I had no idea. He was just gonna show me around the air base and--so that when I wanted to go to the PX [post exchange] I could go out there instead of the crappy one we had downtown, you know, cause everything's better in the Air Force. [laughs].

Um, so we--I had no idea. I had no reason to think otherwise, and apparently I was just really naive. Um, so the next morning I civi-- civies and, uh, he came and picked me up, and we drive out of the city, and he gets off the Autobahn, down some country road in the forest and, you know, and he pulls over and parks, and he goes, "Well, you know why I really brought you out here, don't you?" Mind 01:14:00you, this man is my father's age. I'm barely eighteen. And I'm like, no, why? And he pointblank, "Cause I want to fuck you." [laughs] And from there I have no memory of anything until about two days later. To this day I have--I don't know if something happened. I don't know if it didn't. All I know is that the feeling of--of feeling like, ooh, this is cool because there's a lot of other women here, you know, and--and people my age and stuff, you know, and--and the first week or two in the barracks, you know, thinking, like, you know, I'm gonna have friends. I'm--colleagues that are women and, you know, [laughs] but then it turned to, oh my gosh, you know. Does this happen to all the women here, you know? Or you know, and I started seeing then even what I thought would be my 01:15:00friends, I started seeing them differently and wondering, you know, well, did it happen to them, or am I just a bad person that, you know, this is--you know, did I ask for this? You know, I'm just--you know, or is everybody carrying the same secret?

You know, and I don't know because nobody ever talked about it. I never told anybody that I worked with, and nobody ever talked about those things, you know. So I have in recent years been in touch, um, through social media and even met up a couple times with one of the women that I was stationed with then, but I--I never asked her, and she never asked me, [laughs] you know. I--I don't know. [laughs] Um, and then after that, um, I do remember that suddenly the young men 01:16:00that I worked with who should have been, you know, my colleagues, um, maybe it was partly in my head, but I recall feeling that--that everybody looked at me differently, you know, like the men, the guys, um, you know, they just kind of, like, look at ya funny, you know. And I f-- just the whole thing, it was just, I didn't know what to do. I had no idea that that would happen, even though, like, wow, it happened in basic training, so why didn't you think it would happen here? But you know, um, eh, so the--the--[laughs] the fear of--of being that far from home quickly became complicated by all sorts of other things and feeling like, you know, I was gonna be part of something good, something cool, um, just 01:17:00very quickly, within two weeks that was all shattered.

Um, and to the point where everybody looks at everybody, you know, and--and then ,you know, you would hear guys talkin' about, you know, she got promoted cause she slept with the boss and shit like that, you know. And--and that--it just, you know, the isolation set in, and [laughs] it just, it was--I don't even know a word for it. Um, yeah, I--I don't even know what to call it. Uh, where everybody looks at, you know, like, no matter what you've done, there's that thing in the background where--and a lot of times even if it's not true, if it's per-- perceived to be true, no matter what it is, often the perception is worse 01:18:00than the reality, and it affects, you know, it affects your job. It affects all sorts of relationships, you know. Um, yeah, so um--

SPRAGUE: Was there anybody there that you could reach out to that could help you or--

BENN: No, not in those days, no, no. Then women were considered like, you know, you're lucky that you're even here. You're lucky that we even let you in our club. So shut up. [laughs] There was no one, no. Um, and I found out later, um, [laughs] that, um, a counseling statement had been written up on me and put in my records, in my official records, um, that I had no knowledge of. And it wasn't just the senior NCO that he signed off on it, but it was the second line 01:19:00supervisor, the E-6 who wrote it up. And he was a--a Black man, and it was especially a slap in the face because I'm thinking, like, you know, okay, there aren't that many Blacks here either, buddy, you know. Like, you and I should be more on the same side, not, you know, against each other. Um, but it was written up that I was, like, sleeping with everybody and that, you know, it was even called into question that, um--that people that I interviewed as part of my job that I was saying things to them suggesting that, you know, we were gonna go do somethin' later on, you know, which nothing could have been further from the truth.

Um, and in that assignment, at that job, we had to wear our class-As. Mind you what I said about when we even got slacks as part of the uniform. So of course 01:20:00I'm in a skirt. It was written in that counseling statement that I sat with my legs wide apart while I'm interviewing men, which, you know, come on. If you're sitting at your desk doing your job, how can you even see my legs, you know? Um, [laughs] yeah. Um, and I didn't find out about that until months after it happened. Um, and we got a new company commander, a young captain, and you know, he--I--I guess had gone through the records of the people in the company before, you know, um, taking command. I don't know. Or maybe something was said to him, you know, that--that I was no good and you should get rid of me or something. I 01:21:00don't really know how it came to light. But, um, I got called into his office for more counseling about these horrible problems I was having. And I was, "Excuse me?" I knew nothing about it, but then once I heard the things he was saying, a lot of other things made sense. Um, and, uh, so he le-- he let me read it, and he couldn't believe that I had never been--that I hadn't been part of that whole conversation. Um--

SPRAGUE: So did they fake your signature on the counseling statement?

BENN: No, it said I refused to sign.

SPRAGUE: Oh, okay.

BENN: Yup.

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: Refused to sign.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Okay.

BENN: Yup.

SPRAGUE: Huh.

BENN: And so he told me that he would remove it from my records, which I believe he did, um, but by that point, you know, and he said he would, you know, try to make things better, but, you know, there's no-- there's no way of fixing that. 01:22:00And at the same time, over at the--back then they were, um, MPCs, military personnel centers. Um, so, you know, probably half the building there had heard it too, you know. [laughs] Um, so yeah, a lot of damage early on, and, um--and then I did end up, um--I--I had gotten into a relationship with someone. Um, it was never intended to be, like, a mega serious relationship, but you know. Um, I ended up getting pregnant. Um, I remember that, uh, in high school there were girls that I knew who got pregnant and got married, and two years later, they're divorced. And throwback to one who learned young to do a lot of things for 01:23:00herself, it was like, there's no way that I'm gonna get married just to put a name on it and be divorced and have to figure it out for myself two years from now, you know.

Um, so I made the decision that I'm not getting married, and, um, I knew it wouldn't go over well at home. I didn't, uh--I wait till after the holidays, [laughs] um, to even make the phone call to my parents. Um, and, um, of course it didn't go over well. Um, and mail was real slow. It probably took about two weeks. Two weeks later I get a letter from my mother, and, you know, I mean, I'm terrified. I'm--maybe I had just turned nineteen. Um, yeah, it would have been shortly after my nineteenth birthday. So I'm a nineteen-year-old PFC [private 01:24:00first class] in Germany, and [laughs] I'm with child, and I'm scared as can be, and the support I got from my mother was how am I supposed to be happy about this? What am I supposed to tell the neighbors? Blah, blah, blah, not that I was having a child but that I wasn't getting married. [laughs]

And so, like, it very quickly became everyone in my world being against me and having really--and I can honestly say zero support. Um, and that--you know, the letter that I got from my mom was somewhat predictable. It was a little more harsh than I expected. Um, but, um, so there was no further contact with my mom. 01:25:00Um, she knew the, uh--she knew the due date. Um, I had no contact with any of my family, um, for about six months then. And um, it was al-- also about the time that I told my mom was about the time that I could no longer keep it hidden from my co-workers. So um, y-- you know, I had to tell a lot of people at the same time, and I knew that it wouldn't go over well with anybody. And in those days it wasn't long after women stopped being forced out for that condition. Um, and I went, um, there was--we had, uh, there were two people two a room and two rooms that shared a bathroom. And the person, one of the--the ladies across, you know, in the other room from me, um, she was also pregnant, but she was getting 01:26:00married, and she was getting out.

And so she and I--she knew what was going on with me, and she and I went and talked to the CO [commanding officer] together. [laughs] Mind you, this was the same commander who was new there and had--the one who broke the news to me about this counseling statement. Um, so it was really pretty awkward, you know, and he thought--the commander thought that I was there with my friend from across the--the entryway, um, as support for her, you know. And she told him, and she told him what her intent was, and he's like, okay, you know. And then when she finished, and she kind of looked over at me, and he looked at me, and he goes, "Well, I think we're done here." And I'm like, "Well, no we're not." [laughs] And I go, "Cause I am too, but I'm not leavin'." And it was just sort of like, 01:27:00the look on his face was, this is my worst nightmare. [laughs] Um, and I stayed in the barracks until, uh, um, my--my daughter was--was due the first week of May. And so, um, I was allowed on the first of May to, um, go looking for an apartment, or maybe I guess it would have been, like, late April. I don't remember exactly. But I--I know there was very little time that I was afforded to go find a place to live, um, and I--I signed a lease on the first of May, and my daughter was born early in the morning on the third of May. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Um, but anyway, uh, it wasn't really a--a big deal. I--I--as I recall, I was--I was more relieved to be in the barracks and around people anyway, and by 01:28:00then, um, most of the women, the ones who were still there, um, you know, were more on my side, you know, like, hey, leave her alone, you know. Like, just leave her alone. Um, and even some of the guys started softening up, you know, like, you know, just let it go. Leave her alone. Don't fuck with her anymore. Um, and so, uh, um, the--the shifts that we work, you know, of course, a pregnant person, you get put on a profile. You're not supposed to work more than forty hours a week. They tried to tell me that things like CQ [charge of quarters] and KP [kitchen police], they weren't really part of your work week because those are extra duties.

And, you know, so when I--next checkup at the doc, you know, no, I haven't been able to stick to that because they tell me that all these extra duties are not part of the work week. So the doc, you know, I don't know exactly how it 01:29:00happened, but somehow word gets back to my commander, you know, and--and it got all twisted around. Um, I had even over Christmas time, I volunteered to take CQ duty for one of the guys because he was married and had a family, and he wanted to be with his family then. Um, and it was right after the hospital management to convince the command that, no, extra duty and everything else all counts to the forty-hour work week. Um, and also the--the job that we had, uh, we did--they were usually ten- to twelve-hour days, and it was based on the flights coming in. And we worked two days on, three days off, three days on, two days off. And the only day that you were guaranteed off was Christmas and your birthday. Um, and you know, holidays all that, it--it didn't matter, you know. 01:30:00And you worked. You know, you were there at seven in the morning. If there was an early flight, you--you know, you went in early, and you stayed until the last flight has been processed through. There were no eight-hour workdays.

Um, And a lot of other things, uh, we had, uh, an inspection coming up. And the, uh, um--so in those days, if you had an inspection, it was like, oh, you know, not only--it was like double-time then. Not only did you have your job to do, but you also then had to go back through all the records and make sure every I was doted and every T crossed and that everything was in perfect order for the inspection. And oh, by the way, the walls haven't been painted in about five years. We're gonna do that too. A person with child should not be painting, especially the sort of paint that we had in the '70s. But, no, I was, again, 01:31:00threatened, and if you say anything, we're gonna kick you out, and you're gonna have a dishonorable discharge, and you've already got enough going against you. If you get a dishonorable discharge too, you're fucked for the rest of your life, you know.

SPRAGUE: They were still threatening a dishonorable discharge?

BENN: Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. And then, um, after I was out of the barracks then and--and living downtown on my own, um, I couldn't afford to have a phone. There were other people who lived off post and didn't have phones, men, and it was okay. But it wasn't okay for me. Um, and there were a lot of times where, um--there was a--a period of time where the--the doorbell system, um, in Germany, you know, you had the buzzers, um, and you could ring 'em in from your apartment, and, um, um, for a while that system wasn't working. And it took a 01:32:00few weeks to get it fixed by the landlord, and, um, at some point in there--and--and like the people that I worked with knew it. I had told them this was going on, but we had an alert. You know, three in the morning, you get a phone call, you have to go in, right. And, um, um, there was one point, it--it happened during the time where the buzzer, the doorbell system wasn't working, and so I wasn't notified. [laughs] There were also two other guys who had been out partying the night before and went home with a German, you know, German girlfriends, and nobody knew where they were, and they didn't make it either, but I was the only one who got written up for it, not--for being late, [laughs] 01:33:00for missing the alert call, even though there were two guys that I worked with who had also missed it.

Um, but by then it was just like, yeah, yeah, whatever, you know. They also would not promote me. Um, they had told me that I was not--as a single parent I was not authorized BAH [basic allowance for housing], the housing allowance. In their eyes I didn't have a dependent because surely the only dependent I could really have would be a husband. [laughs] And if I didn't have one of those, clearly I couldn't have any other sort of dependent. [laughs] So you know, I spent about two years on E-3 pay with no extras [laughs] while I'm paying the rent and everything else and all this. Um--

SPRAGUE: How did you--how did you survive, I mean, economically?

BENN: I had nowhere else to go.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: I had nowhere else to go. My parents weren't welco-- welcome-- welcoming 01:34:00me home, and--and I truly believed that if I got that dishonorable discharge I would never have anything else, you know. And I'm sure to a degree at the time it may have been true. Um, but they certainly held it over my head a lot more than was called for or than was even real. Um, which I, of course, I didn't know until I got to my second duty station. Um--

SPRAGUE: So d-- let's wrap up Germany. Anything else? Any more you want to tell me more about Germany?

BENN: Um, it wasn't all bad. Um, it was a lot of life lessons. Um, at the time I was also taking college classes. And one of the, um, classes that I had was--it 01:35:00was called--it was with University of Maryland. Of course they're big overseas with the military. Um, and the class was economic problems of women. [laughs] which was like a very newly studied field, you know. Um, and I was learning then about all of the disparities that had occurred in the US in the workplace, um, until that point, which is pre-1980, you know. It might have been '78 or '79, I don't really remember the year that I was taking those classes, but all these things are happening at the same time, and, um, um, so I--actually, I got an extremely good grade in that class because I had a whole lot to say at the time. [laughs]

So I--I guess, and without even realizing the significance of it all, um, a lot 01:36:00of things were, I guess, starting to fall into place and starting to groom me into the person that I would become, you know, because I mean, even--even at twenty a person is really not a grownup, you know. You're not--you're still forming. You're still figuring out life. Um, but needless to say, I had a lot of challenges, which--both good and bad. You know, I--I did learn to be extremely self-reliant, which is good, but it also caused me to not trust a single person around me, you know, which is not right, and it--it wasn't fair. It wasn't fair to me, and it wasn't fair to, you know, people that I would, you know, really for the rest of my life, um, everything would be affected by those actions.

Um, another thing that they told me, and I, again, I don't know if it's true or not, but I was told that because I was a single parent, I had to go see a social worker. [laughs] So, which at first I--I was like, that's bullshit, and you know it, and I'm not gonna do it. But then it was, yes, you are. And you asked earlier if there was anyone that I could talk to, reach out to, and it became that she--it was a--a Black female social worker, um, and for the--the day, you know, my goodness, for the '70s for a Black woman to have become whatever, I don't know what her credentials were, but there was some sort of degree there. So she had to have been an incredible person, and of course at the time I didn't 01:38:00realize it, but that's one other person that I've never, ever forgotten.

Um, and she was probably the only thing that really saved me at that point in time. The only thing that kept me sane. [laughs] Um, yeah, so and that was another one of the things though that, that, you know, I don't know if it's true, but, you know, come on, if you're a single mother, you have to see a social worker? [laughs] Where's the logic? [laughs] But, um, it--it turned out for the better because she helped me find ways to deal with the things that I was facing, um, and help me overcome a lot of things and--and put things in their place, um, in that point in time.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: So.

SPRAGUE: Okay, I think we're gonna take a break there for a minute.

BENN: Okay.

SPRAGUE: Just, uh, this ends the first section of the r-- interview.

[break in audio ]

SPRAGUE: Okay, and now we're, uh, rolling again on the second segment of the interview with Elizabeth Benn. And, um, we are going to start, uh--start up with their second duty station. Um, tell me a little bit about, was it Fort Ord California?

BENN: Yes, it was.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So tell me about that, and--and leaving Germany and--and getting to California, and what was that like?

BENN: It was actually amazing. Um, I--I found there that, um, just a--a whole different, um, group of people, different attitude. Um, i-- it was just mind-blowing, the difference, um, in--in people that I worked with. Uh, no one 01:40:00held it against me that I was a single-parent. They couldn't believe that, um--that I was owed by this point, I don't know, well over a year, um, probably at least eighteen months of--of backpay in the BAH, you know, the housing allowance. Um, so that was--and it actually came, um, I got for Fort Ord, I think, in July of 1980. Um, so by the time that got all straightened out, it--it came, um--eh, the first of the month, of, uh--of my birth month, which is November, um, which was funny because it--it just, it was a birthday present, and it was pretty big at the time, so yeah.

Um, but, yeah, nobody held anything against me. Um, um, if I recall right, I--I 01:41:00was promoted to E-4 just before I left Germany. Um, and, you know, they held out on that till they couldn't even come up with anymore stupid reasons to not promote me. Um, [laughs] um, and--and just before I left they--they promoted me. Um, and within months, as--as soon as I was initially eligible for consideration to E-5 I--I was recommended for the board. I aced the board, and I--I just remember so many people and even higher-ranking people telling me that they couldn't believe that those things--e-- even the things on paper, it didn't go into any details, but just the, the BAH and the fact that I was, you know, kept at E-3 for so long, um, they--so many people told me they just couldn't believe 01:42:00it, you know, that--[laughs]

And so that was like a--a huge, um, pick-me-up that I needed. Um, I--I really needed to hear somebody think that I was worthy and recognized that I was good at something, um, and not a--a horrible, horrible person because I chose to keep my baby and not get married. [laughs] Um, so yeah, and from there are things, um, started going a whole lot better. Um, and there were probably as many women in the--in the, uh--in the unit as there were men. We worked with, uh, um--it was called the MILPO, the military personnel office, um, at Fort Ord, supporting Seventh Infantry and everything that went along with them.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, I remember when I first learned that I was going there I'm thinking, ooh, leavin' Germany for sunny California. And there were a couple of people who had been stationed there, and they're like, uh-uh. [laughs] They said, you know, you--it's cloudy and cold almost all year long, and I just thought, that cannot be. Nineteen eighty was one of the hottest summers on record, um, at least at that time. It was very, very hot all across the US. Um, [laughs] drivin' up Highway One, approaching Monterey, Fort Ord, and what do I see? Clouds. And I just thought, no. No, this cannot be true. [laughs] And sure enough, it was true. Fort Ord, I can't say cold, being from Wisconsin, but cool and often, often cloudy. [laughs] The way the bay sits just kinda catches everything off 01:44:00the ocean, and San Francisco is a lot--is very similar.

Um, so, um, yeah, so I--it was summer time. I came back, uh, you know, took some leave at home in Iowa. Uh, my brother was, I think a junior in high school. Um, and my other brother was, uh, probably, I don't know, ten or so. And, uh, so my--my closest brother, though, uh, closest in age, he's in high school, and of course, all the high school boys, and they all want these fancy cars and everything. And, um, um, there was--well, and my dad then working for the newspaper, um, he took me with him one day, uh, to one of the car dealers. He 01:45:00knew, of course, I was looking for a car. Um, and he was going by there to conduct business with this man who ran this particular lot. And, um, the--the man--my dad, you'd have to understand, very, uh, warped sense of humor and lets people hang themselves when they deserve it.

So he didn't realize that we both got out of the same vehicle together, and, you know, my dad goes in and--in the office, and they're talking about the advertising for the week or whatever. And, um, so the owner of the car dealership sees me looking at some vehicles on the lot, and he started saying things, you know, like, "Ooh, look at that one." You know, "Boy, we're gonna sell her somethin' aren't we?" and things like that. And--and he just let--my dad just let him keep talking, didn't say a word. And then I come in few minutes 01:46:00later to the--into the dealership, and the guy comes out, you know, thinkin' all this, and my dad goes, "Oh, I'd like to introduce you to my daughter Elizabeth." [laughs] I got one heck of a deal on a car. [laughter] It was hilarious. And it was exactly what that guy deserved. So you know, my dad, he had clever ways of, uh, putting people in their place without saying a word. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, so anyway, um, it also happened to be a, uh, Mustang Mach One that, uh, my brother and a bunch of his buddies had been eyeballing, but none of them had the money for it. [laughs] So with the--I think he let me have it for about half of what he was asking. Um, which was less than $2,000 for, I think it was a 01:47:00s-- '72 Mach One, and it had air conditioning and power locks, and that was like, whoa.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Cars didn't have those back then. Um, so anyway, I got the car, and then my--my two brothers drove with me and the baby. Um, we took our time. We swung down to Missouri and visited some friends there. And, uh, there were friends of my parents who ended up in Little Rock. We stopped there. Went on to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where, um, one of the friends that I had had in Germany, uh, he was stationed there. We stopped and visited, and, um, eventually rolled on through. A-- actually, I had a cousin who--she married a guy who went in the Air Force, and they were in Phoenix. Dropped down there, and, uh, we were crossing through dead--Death Valley, um, mind you, one of the hottest summers on record, and, um, 01:48:00knowing that Death Valley is hot anyway, we decided to--you know, we planned it where we would go through there at, like, three in the morning. Um, and I was thinking surely we can turn the AC off and, you know, we'll be fine. About five minutes with no AC in Death Valley that summer, no. [laughter]

And my--my--the one brother was with me, uh, to help driver, and the other one, uh, to help take care of my daughter, um, which neither one of them minded, you know, um, doing. So we had a--a fun trip. Uh, at one point in--neither one of them minded, you know, um, doing. So we had a--a fun trip. Uh, at one point in--I think it was outside of Amarillo, Texas, um, we had stopped to, you know, I don't know, middle of the night, stopped to get a couple hours of sleep. We tried to do most of our driving overnight so that, uh, we were dealing with less 01:49:00heat. And then the kids could play or something in the daytime, and, you know, and sleep through most of the driving.

And, um, so we--we were--I think it was a grocery store parking lot. And, um, pretty soon here's the [knocks] at the window, and it's a couple of police officers, and, you know, they were friendly, but they wanted to know what was going on. Here's this nice car with Iowa plates, and, you know, roll down the window, and they see a--a twenty-one--or, no, I was twenty, a twenty-year-old person, and three underaged people, and I'm sure I didn't really look twenty, you know. Um, and they thought we were runaways. [laughs] They tried to hold us for a bit, and, you know, they couldn't--they couldn't find anything on us. Um, you know, and so eventually, you know, they--they let us go. It--but I mean, 01:50:00I--I never felt threatened. I felt it was more of like a safety thing. And we laughed about it for days, you know. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: They may have even made a call to my parents. I--I don't really remember. Um, I just remember the--the knocking on the window and then when they saw who was in the car, thinking that--that we were runaways. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Um, but anyway, so, um, yeah, and that trip up Highway One and seeing all those clouds and my heart just sunk thinking like, no, not more cloudy, cold weather, [laughs] cause Germany is often known for--f-- you know, they're not known for sunny beaches. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: Any experiences that when you were at Fort Ord that you'd like to share?

BENN: Um, we had a--a lot of good times. Um, right on the ocean, um, there were 01:51:00times that I had guard duty, um. There was--it was a very famous building, Stilwell Hall, um, that was built right up on the--the dunes above--above the ocean. Um, and that was one of the places that we had to do guard duty often. Um, we had some ammo, uh, storage places that were out in, uh--you wouldn't really call 'em dunes, but it was sandy areas, um, that were further inland. Um, and whenever I got called for guard duty it was like, "I'll take Stilwell." [laughs] And the movie, what was it, 1942 or something like that? John Belushi, where they were s-- it was sort of a satire on World War II and that the--the Japanese were--were coming to bomb the west coast.

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: Um, it was a John Belushi movie. Um, and it was pretty fun, and it was relatively new at that time. And so I'd be out there, you know, three in the morning Stilwell Hall, the waves crashing, you know, and--and I would just have these images of something from--from that movie, you know, [laughs] like the Japanese coming to attack or the--there were U-boats out there in the Pacific, and they could see me, but I couldn't see them, and just silly things like that. Um, but I also remember, again, because I'm a--a rather short person, um, we had the--I don't remember the nomenclature of the radio, but the backpack radio, um, and we had to check in, I don't know, hourly or something. And, um, I remember thinking that if I--and we're carrying M16s. we never had ammo, but we had the--the weapon. Um, which really I don't know what the purpose of that was, 01:53:00but, uh--

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, I remember thinking that if somebody did come up, um, and want to overtake me, they could probably--a good strong breath and blow me over, [laughs] and I would be like a turtle stuck on my back with all the crap on my back, you know. [laughter] Um, but, yeah, we--you know, you had--we had our share of, uh, backstabbing people. You always run into those, no matter where you are, I think. Um, and there it--w-- two--two instances there, and I don't want to dwell on bad things, but, um, I had a neighbor who babysat my daughter, um, who stole my Christmas presents. Wow, it's funny how so many things bounce back to the holidays. Um, but you know, UPS comes. I'm, uh--I'm at--at work. Um, 01:54:00they leave a note, um, and of course this doesn't get resolved until after the holidays because they're overwhelmed with--with deliveries and phone calls for non-deliveries.

Um, but apparently the--the second time UPS came I didn't know about, and she saw that they were there, and signed my name to the packages, but--and the only way that it was caught was b-- they wrote her apartment number. Um, and, you know, mind you, this is someone that I thought was my friend. And she's the wife of a--another GI, and, um, our kids played together and stuff, and she babysits my daughter, and at the same time, [laughs] steals my Christmas presents, you know. And then, um, yeah, so that, and another really bad thing that happened 01:55:00was, uh, uh, there were co-workers who got married, and, um, I was in their wedding and everything, and, uh, [laughs] they hadn't planned ahead well. And, uh, they didn't want to live in the barracks, so I let them move in with me, supposedly, until they had saved money, um, and could, you know, get their own place, which they did, but when they did, [laughs] it was another night at guard duty, and, um, they cleaned me out.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Hardly anything was left in the apartment, food from the refrigerator. I--I didn't actually have furniture at the time. I had a twin bed box spring and mattress with pillows that, you know, looked like a couch, and, but yeah, that's another thing that I just, you know, never forget. Uh, what, you look at your wedding pictures, and you laugh about how you screwed this person over, [laughs] 01:56:00who was in your wedding, you know? Um--

SPRAGUE: Did you have a chance to report it or--?

BENN: Oh, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: And, you know, and it--it became a he said, she said thing, you know, and the police also warned me that, um--that they could file suit against me for defamation, you know, and I'm just like--[laughs] But who does that, you know, especially when there's a child involved? I come home from a night of guard duty, and I can't even feed my kid cause you just ripped me off?

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: So and like things from the bathroom, just everything, you know. And then I--I still worked with these people, you know, and there would be all the little digs, you know. There was a camera, a very--well, at the time an expensive Cannon camera that I bought in Germany cause, eh, in those days, you know, you didn't have all the other options, and the PX overseas was where you got things 01:57:00like that at--at a far less cost than you would anywhere else, you know.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: And I remember that man telling me--she would mostly avoid me, but sometimes in formation he, like--if he was behind me, he'd say something like, "Take any pictures lately?" you know, and stuff like that. And I just couldn't believe it. And of course, I wanted to turn around and smack the crap out of him, but I couldn't. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: And it--yeah, so anyway, but we had a lot of fun also. Um, there was one thing that I referred to in Real Life Library, um, you know, um, personnel management not being my first choice and being something that's typically female, you know, um, um, managed to find ways to have fun with it. Um, we--there was--we would, you know, the other girls in the office and I, we would 01:58:00go to the--the club on post sometimes, and, uh, um, there was one particular man who, uh, didn't grasp the fact that we all worked together. [laughs] And, uh, he, you know--he--he even didn't realize that, like, the phone numbers that we gave him when he asked were--were our office numbers, you know, the same numbers on Fort Ord. You should be able to figure that much out. Um, and if they go in sequence, they might all be in the same general area. [laughs]

But, um, so he would make the rounds and call each of us, and, you know, and we'd get off the phone, and we'd chuckle over it. And in those days promotions were processed by stacks of IBM cards. D-- are you familiar with those?

SPRAGUE: Vaguely, yeah, but that's just before my time.

BENN: Right, right. Um, so anyway, those old IBM cards, and, um, we had to match 01:59:00them up with rosters because things weren't really automated them. Sure, the IBM cards were, but they came from, you know, a computer that was a large as a person's living room would be. Um, so we had to match them up with, uh, rosters that we got from the companies on post. Um, you know, anyone who was flagged for something, you know, failed PT or got in trouble or whatever, um, where they were no longer in a promotable status. And, um, one day, I don't even remember whose idea it was, but, like, we knew that this guy was coming up for promotion, and [laughs] this is a monthly thing, and if it doesn't happen on the first of this month, well, it doesn't--you don't have a chance of seeing it until the first of next month. And, um, we would just somehow that--h-- that person's card always fell out of the side, or maybe the system didn't produce it. You know, we 02:00:00had no way of knowing what happened to it. [laughs]

And, you know, of course, you're--you're gonna do anything that would really get ourselves in trouble or really hurt someone else more than just a little jab. Um, so it went on for three or four months, and, you know, when we finally l-- let it slide through, I--I think he got back pay and everything. But, uh, it was fun to have that little bit of power over somebody. [laughs] Another time there was a, um, an MP [military police] who followed my friend and I, like, kept--we had left the club on post, and I was driving--oh, I was living on post at--by then also. Um, but he would tailgate us and then back off, and then he'd tailgate. You know, and when somebody's tailgating you, you're two women on an Army base, you know, and I don't know, midnight or something maybe. Um, I don't 02:01:00think the club stayed open past that. But, um, you know, not, like, terribly late at night, but, you know, [laughs] so what do I do? I speed up a little bit, you know, like who's this joker tailgating me? Of course I speed up a little bit.

Well, then, whew, whew, whew, and get pulled over for speeding. [laughs] It's like, dude. [laughs] Okay, two--two can play this game. And e-- you know, and I remembered his name, and a few months later he came down on levy to go to, uh--he was selected go to B-- Berlin br-- brigade, which was elite duty at the time. Um, not just anybody can go to Berlin, and, uh, guess who he had to work with to get his security clearance to go to Berlin? [laughs] Yours truly. Guess who ended up not getting that assignment?

SPRAGUE: Ouch.

BENN: Yup.

SPRAGUE: Huh.

BENN: Where, I mean, it--it--it was an issue of his grandmother was Cuban, um, 02:02:00and, oh, those horrible commies, you know. [laughs] If you have any association with those terrible commies it could preclude you from an assignment. But it was also a--a, like, a determination that I could make, you know.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: For anybody else I woulda totally said, like, that's your grandmother .you know. The chances of you doing something, you know, in Berlin that are gonna benefit, you know, communists in Cuba, probably pretty slim, but because of what he did to me, [laughs] two can play, buddy.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: He did not get that assignment.

SPRAGUE: Huh.

BENN: I made the determination, and he tried to argue it, and I pointed that out, and my supervisor said, "No, she's right. You're not goin'." So--

SPRAGUE: Anything else about Fort Ord that comes to mind?

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: Terms of experiences and--

BENN: A lot of good times on the coast. Weekends we would--groups of us 02:03:00would--would get together and just go out on the--the coast somewhere. We'd go down to Big Sur. Um, there's a place called Pfeiffer Beach State Park. It's, um, down toward Big Sur. Um, you have to walk in, and because of that, it's, you know, fewer people go. Um, you have to, like, hike down the hill to get to the beach and everything. And, um, I remember going down there for Fourth of July, and all along the coast you could see campfires and people shooting off fireworks, and it was just, especially for someone from the Midwest, you know, I--aside from flying over the Atlantic to and from Germany, I had never seen, um, the ocean. I'd never been, you know, spent time along the ocean. Um, so to me that was just fascinating. It was beautiful. Um, lot of time spent on the ocean. Um, and then also, uh, being from the Midwest where spring through 02:04:00October everything is green, and in that part of California you have, uh, probably March and April when we would get some rain everything was green, but by June the hills all turned gold, you know, all the--the wild grass growing on the hills, um, inland, you know, everything was golden hills, and that was just so unusual to me and just so pretty.

Um, and my daughter one time when we had flown home, uh, to visit the family in Iowa, um, my mom picks us up at the airport, and, uh, my daughter is just like, "Everything is so green." And my parents had never been to California, and--and my mom's lookin' at her like, well, of course it's green. It's not winter. What do you think it's gonna be, you know? And I had to explain to her later that, 02:05:00you know--

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: -- it's not like that out in where we were living, and just one of those things, you know, that--oddball things. Um, but we were near Salinas, um, which, you know, Steinbeck and Cannery Row and Monterey and just all these cool things. Um, I was familiar with Stainbeck and all his writings. Um, and just to be there in--in that area, um, was--was amazing. And I was just thrilled to be there. Um, and then my--my closest-in-age brother, um, as soon as he graduated from high school, he went in the Navy, and he ended up going to San Diego. Um, so, um, and then when I was leaving, I got assigned out on the east coast in Maryland, and 02:06:00so he got himself transferred to, uh, uh, Virginia, to Norfolk so we--we stayed close, um, while we could. [laughs] I ended up going back overseas, and then he ended up getting--

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: -- out, but--

SPRAGUE: S-- so tell me about your decision to reenlist for three years.

BENN: Um, things were going well. I, uh--yeah, I was--I was liking it. I was being treated well. Um, I didn't really know what I would do if I--if I were to get out. Um, you know, I--I just, I didn't know what else I might do.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: By then, you know, things were repaired with the family. Um, you know, my mom, you know, would have happily had me come back home or whatever by then. Um, but by then I didn't feel I needed to. Um, eventually I would, but, uh, um, at 02:07:00the time, yeah, I just, I didn't--I didn't know what else I might do. And I was, you know, ridin' the tide. It was goin' good, so I--

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: -- reenlisted. People in personnel, it was never a critical MOS, so there were never bonuses or anything. Um, and that was one thing that always struck me. Uh, I would always, every place I ever was, um, I would volunteer to do, you know, some other exercise if it took me out of the office. Um, and--oh, where I was going with that? I'm sorry. Um, oh, s-- I forget what I was even referring to with that. I'm sorry.

SPRAGUE: That's okay.

BENN: Um, but, uh, yeah, so I--I--I was able to do other things rather than just, you know, work the nine to five thing. Um, and I knew that if I left, uh, 02:08:00that opportunity probably wouldn't be available at, you know, any other--any other place of employment. Um, and by that time I guess I was also starting to think about things like retirement, you know, four years down, take a three-year hitch. Whoa, then you're almost at the halfway point, you know, and it just seemed--it didn't seem like there was a good reason to get out.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, there were no wars in sight, you know, in the early, mid-'80s, you know.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: We were still a long way from the first Gulf War, so--

SPRAGUE: Right.

BENN: -- yeah.

SPRAGUE: So tell me about your next duty station.

BENN: Um, went to Fort Ritchie, Maryland. Um, a very small post. Uh, mostly communications. Um, it was--let's see. What did they call it back then? The 02:09:00acronym was C, uh--C-E-E-I-A, I think, the Communication Electronics Engineering Installation Agency I think is what it was? Um, and I was, uh--I got assigned there. Um, so we had all these comal[??] guys with, uh, high-end clearances. Most of 'em, I think, were top-secret clearances. We were responsible for the comal[??] systems in the US, uh, at the installations and even some government, uh, facilities that were not military. So we had, um, responsibility for everything in the US that was east of the Mississippi. There was a--a similar unit in, I think it was down in Arizona that had everything, uh, west of the Mississippi. And they had a place in Korea, and I don't believe that had 02:10:00anything in Germany, um, at least not from that agency, not from that--that unit. Um, I don't recall that we ever had, um, anyone going to or coming from Germany.

Um, so, um, because one of the other, um, big units was--was in Korea, we had a lot of, uh, guys being transferred to Fort Ritchie with young Korean wives who spoke no English and were away from home for their first time and all this stuff, you know. A lot of the guys, um, would, you know, it's--it's meant to be a one-year tour, but if you're willing to extend, they're more than happy to accommodate. Um, but after a few years, I know a lot of people did that in Germany as well. If, you know, people who had married Germans, and then they never wanted to leave, but sooner or later the Army says, no, got to go. So we would get--oh, my goodness. Well, my--it wasn't part of my actual duties. I 02:11:00would, um--the first sergeant would, um, encourage me to--to meet the wives and, you know, cause it--it wouldn't--they wouldn't be there long before the husband would have to go somewhere, like say DC or down to Florida or somewhere for a month or two. Um, and, you know, doin' the installations or whatever work in the commo systems, um, and then, you know, here's these women that are suddenly left alone in a strange place.

So a lot of my job became, uh, um, helping them, helping them find, uh, you know, where to go shopping. Um, in those days the commissaries didn't carry much for, y-- uh, food from other cultures. Uh, these days you find German, Korean, 02:12:00whatever, you know, African, whatever. you find all sorts of things in the commissaries. But then you didn't. Um, and so just helping them even with medical things on post. You know, they [laughs] try to be a translator for--you know, and I don't speak a word of Korean, but, you know, sometimes you can just kind of understand what's going on and try to help them at medical appointments and things like that for themselves or for their babies. Um, so a lot of my job became that, um, which was interesting.

SPRAGUE: And that was--that was in--you were doing--it was still as personnel or personnel specialist?

BENN: Yeah, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: I was, um--I guess I was the unit clerk there. Um, it was an E-5, E-5 position, yeah. Um, so, um, yeah, did all of the--the personnel actions and things for--for the unit, but also a lot of looking out for, um, the wives and 02:13:00the families. In those days we didn't have family support groups and things like we have now.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: So yeah. [laughs] This is old, old Army.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Um, but it was--it was rewarding. I--I enjoyed it. I felt terribly sorry for a lot of those women. Um, you know, um, a lot of other people would look down on them. Um, you know, there was always just, like, you know, the only way that a woman got promoted was, you know, cause she slept with somebody. Well, surely, all the men who married Korean women was just because nobody else wanted them, you know. [laughs] You know, all the nonsense that--that was associated with--with people's choices, you know.

Um, so a lot of people looked down on them. Um, and Fort Ritchie, uh, small 02:14:00community, couple hours out of DC, um, where local people were like, you know, what is this, you know? Who are these people invading our land, you know? Um, so they--if they were living--well, actually, I think everybody there lived on post. No, we had a very, very small housing area. Um, but, you know, even if you're living on post, you're gonna go off post for something, you know, and--and local people didn't know what was going on, and they weren't terribly receptive, friendly to these women, you know. Um, so I tried to be there for them as much as I could and do whatever I could. Um--

SPRAGUE: What was the nearest big town?

BENN: DC, Baltimore.

SPRAGUE: Oh, wow.

BENN: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: It was still two hours away, okay.

BENN: Yeah, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Maybe ninety minutes depending, you know.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, but we--a lot of weekends we would go down to, say, Ocean City, 02:15:00Maryland, spend weekends on the beach, the boardwalk there and everything. Um, one of the guys we worked with, um, he was from Annapolis. Um, and went a couple times with him and other friends to his parents' house. They had a sailboat. And we'd go out on the Chesapeake and sail. And, you know, really--really fun things that, you know, I had never been exposed to. So, um, we had a lot of--lot of good times.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. So you mention in the Real Life Library that they, uh--that that tour lasted fifteen months, about, and then you had to move?

BENN: That's right, yeah, yeah. I--because it was a reenlistment, I was guaranteed twelve months. Um, of course I expected I would be there longer. But I think on probably abou-- around twelve months and one day, [laughs] I had notice I was goin' back to Germany. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: And where were they gonna send you in Germany?

BENN: A place called Rheinberg, which was up north by Dusseldorf, not as far north as Bremerhaven, um, but, um, northern area where we were closer to the Holland border. Um, and there hadn't been US people in that area since World War II. Um, we--we didn't have all the standard facilities, you know, PX, commissary, e-- even medical. Um, we had to go into Holland to one of the airbases for all of that type of support. Um, very few locals in the area spoke German. Um, by this time my daughter is four, and, uh, um, the--I rented, uh, an apartment above the house of a family, most--throughout Europe you see it a lot 02:17:00where the--the family lives int eh main part of the house and has an apartment upstairs, and the apartment is rented until their parents are so old that they can't live alone, and then the parents, usually the father's parents, um, move in then with, uh, the family but still have their own space.

Um, and so I became really good friends with, uh--with the people that owned the house. Um, they had teenage daughters who were learning, um, English, British English in school. Um, but outside of school they didn't have a lot of, uh, uh, people that they could speak English with. Well, then along comes a bunch of, uh, GIs, and [laughs] suddenly they were exposed to other forms of English. [laughs] And of course, a lot of us thought it was humorous to teach them, you 02:18:00know, something that would get 'em in trouble in school, you know. And they would say something at school, and then we'd hear about it later. Um, you know, and it was--it was just funny. It was--it was entertaining. Um, and I don't think--I mean, I'm sure the teachers understood where it was coming from. Um, there was like a joke in the town about, uh, you know, all the--the GIs, uh, ruining the English for the German kids. [laughter]

Um, but it was all good. I remember when I first took that apartment, um, in the evenings when all the families would go out walking, I--I would see them looking up to our windows or up to the balcony, um, you know, to see if they could see somebody, you know. And [laughs] my daughter, of course, quickly b-- became friends with kids in the neighborhood. Um, and it was a blast. She--she spoke more German than English. In California she picked up a lot of Spanish. Um, and 02:19:00then in--in Germany the second time she picked up a lot of German. And, uh, it--it was good for her, I think. Her babysitter didn't speak any English, um, and her husband especially was even worse.

Um, and sometimes he would try to learn things from my daughter, uh, learning words, and he'd be so proud of himself, you know, thinking he--he's gonna show me that he's learned some English, but he's learned it in four-year-old vocabulary. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Oh, no.

BENN: And every little mispronunciation or whatever that comes with it, you know. [laughs] It was so funny. We had a lot of good memories from that. Um, and I--I wish that in those days, you know, my goodness, if there had been even email, much less social media, um, I--you know, I just wish that I'd been able 02:20:00to keep in touch with people, you know, especially local Germans, you know, that I--I'm sure I'd never run into again, so, um--

SPRAGUE: And what was the name of that little town again, or village?

BENN: The town was--where the, um--the building that we--we, um, took was called--was named Rheinberg.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: R-E--or, wait, yeah, E---R-H-E-I and B-E-R-G.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: And it's near Dusseldorf and Cologne.

SPRAGUE: Anything in terms of the Army unit in terms of experiences that you want to share, your duties there?

BENN: It was, um--it was nice because they were standing up, um, a comma-- n-- it wasn't a major command, but, um, I don't even remember what the focus was, um, for that particular unit. Um, we were a support group, so--which is odd 02:21:00looking back because there wasn't--there weren't troops in the area to support. Um, so I don't remember why the Army was trying to stand something up in that area at that time. Um, I think it was only around for maybe five years, and the Army scrapped it. But when I was sent there, um, they had only been there maybe six, eight months, um, so they were still trying to stand everything up and writing policy and things like that. And even though I was an E-5, um, I was regarded as knowledgeable, um, uh. We--we had to write, um, SOPs, you know, standard operating procedures, um, things for, um, not only the--the personnel practices, um, you know, their--personnel is governed by the regulations, of course, but then you have your local policies and how to get things done, you 02:22:00know. Um, so writing policies like that, I did an awful lot of that, and I--it was very rewarding. I felt, you know, important, [laughs] cause these were things that, say, even generals and colonels, you know, would have to follow this policy if they wanted their people to get paid, promoted, or whatever, you know, go to school.

Um, so yeah, I f-- I felt pretty important. I felt respected and appreciated. Um, and yeah, everyone there was--was good. Um, I don't--I don't recall having any of those backstabbing experiences there. Um, yeah, everybody was, you know, cool, supportive. Everybody got along, um--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. So how did you communicate back with your family back in the States, if you wanted to?

BENN: Writing letters.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: And occasionally a phone call but they were very expensive.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Very, very expensive, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: And it was less expensive for my parents to call me, but of course, there's, like, a, depending on the season, seven- or eight-hour time difference. [laughs] Um, so, you know, if--they either had to stay up to--till midnight or I did, you know.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, just to get a phone call in, so--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. And what did you do for downtime there?

BENN: Um, traveled a lot, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Oh.

BENN: Yeah. That was something that I also forgot to mention. Um, in Frankfurt, my first duty station, um, I noticed that, uh, a lot of people would spend their time, um, just drinking or people that were, you know, even grown men, people older than me that were like, "Ugh, I just can't wait to go back home," and all this, and I'm like, why, you know? Why did you join the Army if you wanted to 02:24:00stay at home, you know? And to me it was like, you have this--this whole world that y-- you know, you should be--by that time, once I was there, it was kind of like being in a fairytale storybook, you know, um, castles and, you know, you could walk down the street and see, you know, like, that a building was constructed in 1314 or something, you know, and all these things that I found fascinating, and other people were just like, wu-ba-ba-ba, I want to go home, you know. [laughter] And--and because we had the odd schedule, um, you know, there were days that I'd go down the train station, see how much money I had in my pocket and how far I could go and back--going out and come back in a day, you know.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: And I would just go, go somewhere and go hiking or whatever, you know. Um, there had been one time, it was the second time I was in Germany, um, I had gone, uh, taken the train somewhere and was hiking in the mountains. And, uh, 02:25:00um, there was something, some attraction at the top. You know, these aren't big mountains, you know, smaller. Um, but, uh, whatever the attraction was, maybe it was a lookout with a restaurant or something like that, you know, and there was this woman and her husband, you know, and they saw that I was alone with my daughter, and they asked me what I was doing. And you know, and--and they're just like, and you're doing this all alone? And I'm like, well, yeah, sure. And they're like, no, no, this cannot be. [laughs] And they said you come to our house, and you'll have dinner, and we'll take you to the train station. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: And you know, just, it never felt threatening or anything, you know. It was, yeah, I had a lot of really, really great experiences in Germany, um, both times, aside from the first time with the people I worked with, um, but outside of that it was always good. Um, the cereal that kids get, at least at the time 02:26:00in--in Germany, they had, like, cornflakes and cheerios, you know, or--or [foreign language], right, I think is from Germany, but they didn't have, like, Count Dracula or c-- what was it, Count Chocula and Fruit Loops and this and that and all that processed sugary stuff that we had in the States. And, um, the people that I rented from, they would--they would sometimes, you know, like, well, bring us, you know, so much cereal and tell us how much it costs, and we'll take it off your rent, you know. Just because it was something that they couldn't get. [laughs] And something as simple as flipping box of cereal, you know, but it was, you know, like, a prized item for them. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow. So after that, uh, after this tour, it--it sounds like you decided to return to the reserves, or what was the--   BENN: I--I did. Um, uh, my--my 02:27:00daughter, um, had just turned five. Um, and I, um--I wasn't really sure that I wanted to stay on active duty at the time. Um, goodness, how old would I have been? I guess mid- to late-twenties. Um, and my daughter was approaching kindergarten age. And figuring that on top of the training and everything, probably the first, what, five, six months that I was in, um, was consumed with that, so in, what, six and a half years I'd had four duty stations, Germany to California to Maryland to Germany. And my daughter's approaching kindergarten age, and I just didn't want her to be moving around that much. Um, and I was also recognizing that, um, if I were to progress further in the military, that I 02:28:00would have to go to college, and trying to balance night classes with parenthood and--and, you know, the Army, um, I mean, if I were to try to keep doing that, it would have taken me probably ten years to get a degree, right.

Um, so I, uh, decided it was time for me to go to school and that my daughter should have, uh, a little more stability when she started school. Um, but I also knew that, as single parent, if I left altogether, I couldn't get back in. Um, and I--I had seen people, you know, through working in personnel, um, I had seen the effect of people who were in a few years and then got out, and then coming back in, and, you know, things have changed. They're older. They can't, you 02:29:00know, do the PT that they used to, and things like that, you know. Um, so I knew that I didn't want to be out totally. Um, but I also didn't want to be on active duty, um, so, uh, it was a--a shorter tour in Germany, um, because I ETSed, [expiration term of service] and, um, back to, uh, Fort Dix, New Jersey was where I out processed. And they have the point where the reserve recruiters come into the room, of the dozens of people, [laughs] that are leaving the Army, and they want to preach, you know, like, ooh, join the reserves, you know. Don't give up all that you've gotten, all this, you know, and I'm--you know, and everybody is like, [coughs] yeah, right, you know, like, no.

SPRAGUE: [laughs]

BENN: And I'm sitting there in the corner like, you don't have to give me the speech. I already know. [laughs] I want to go in the reserves, and they just turned and looked at me like, what? [laughs] It was another one of those things 02:30:00that, you know, like, I will never forget the expression on those two men's faces like, what, really? Y--y--you really want to do this, you know?

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: And they're telling me, well, there's no bonus for it in your MOS, and I'm like, well, there never has been, you know. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I got in the reserves, um, and all in all, glad that I did. Um, it's funny because I--I never really expected to make a career of it. Um, And i-- in the reserves at that time, goodness, what would it have been? I guess it was '84.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, eh, the regulations were different. Uh, now they're more streamlined for promotion and schools and things like that. They're more streamline--streamlined to better match active duty requirements. But, um, um, 02:31:00it was--it was a little hard for me to adjust, um, just because there were so many things that, you know, would never fly on active duty, and, uh, things like, even though I was, by time in rank and time in service, I far exceeded the requirement to be considered for promotion, but they want to throw in, oh, but you're new to the unit, and it wouldn't be fair to other people, and we really don't know, you know, how you're gonna turn out, so we can't recommend you for promotion.

Like, wait, what? No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what the regulation says. Show me--show me in the reg, you know, especially, like, dude, I am the personnel. Like, no. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: But what can you do about it, you know, if your--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: -- command is insistent that they're not doin' it, there's really not much you can say about it. Uh, you just have to--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Show them, you know, uh, that--

SPRAGUE: So you're--you're still in personnel.

BENN: Yeah, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Or you're in personnel, I should say. And, uh, what was the reserve unit? Do you happen to remember, or--?

BENN: The first one was with a hospital unit in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, it's where my parents had, um, eventually settled, and they stayed there, um, a long time, basically till they both, uh, uh, passed. But, um, yeah, so Cedar Rapids, Iowa, um, a hospital unit, which was, it was, um, it was fun to be with them. Um, and I guess because I had stayed in the Midwest, um, even much later in my career, uh, ran into some people that I knew from that unit, like in DC and things like that when I was on active duty again.

Um, and then, uh, that's where I met Jason Wasek[??], uh, who would become my 02:33:00husband. Um, and we ended up moving to Minneapolis. And, uh, we were both in the reserves, and both off--just off active-duty, um, when we had joined--gotten in the hospital unit. Um, and, uh, so ended up moving to Minneapolis. Um, and we both had, uh, civilian federal jobs, uh, for the reserve units that we were in, not the same unit by then. Um, I don't even remember what his unit was. It might have been maintenance. Um, but he was the--the unit technician, and, uh, in the reserves there also in personnel. Um, and I ended up, uh, in a--a reserve school, um, where they teach, like, um, the MOSs, uh, for when people 02:34:00reclassify. Um, so I became an instructor of personnel management and, uh, also worked at--at the unit there.

And then, um, somehow--oh, I guess it was because Minneapolis was probably five, six hours from Cedar Rapids, um, and so we decided that Madison was closer, and there was a job opening here, and, uh, then I took a job down here in Madison, and, um, and that's how we ended up here.

SPRAGUE: Huh. So what--what was the job in Madison?

BENN: Um, I was--I think my military job was, uh, unit clerk again, and, um, let's see, I think I was an E-6 by then. And, um, the--the job was a unit 02:35:00administrator, the civilian job.

SPRAGUE: Okay. S--

BENN: Um, and that was what, uh, a support group again.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: So tell me a little bit about that. That's interesting. That transition to being in reserves and also having a civilian job, tell me about that. That--that's interesting.

BENN: It's--

SPRAGUE: What's that like?

BENN: -- difficult. Um, in the National Guard they frame it so that, um, your military job is compatible, if not the same as your civilian, your mil-tech job.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Military technician job. Um, like say if you--if you're an aircraft mechanic, you know, as a civilian, then you're also a mechanic in your guard position. Um, if you're working in personnel, then you know, the--the--the two 02:36:00positions match up.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: And it's--that's the way the guard designs it. Um, in the reserves, the requirement is only that you're in that unit. It doesn't have to be a similar position. Um, but of course, because the majority of people that you're working with are reservists who are only there on the weekends, um, if they have--so a--a unit administrator primarily handles the pay and, you know, all of the HR, all of the personnel things. Um, so, uh, initially my job there was similar. Um, but then if I were to s-- to stay, I--I couldn't progress. I couldn't get promoted on the reserve side any higher. Um, and so I, um, got into food 02:37:00service, um. Um, I don't like to call it a cook because it sounds, you know, menial. Um, and with that rank I wasn't just a cook. You know, I, um--I had the section. And in that unit, well, we--we were--we had the E-6 section sergeants. We were really close. You know, you had the supply, the maintenance, the food service, the commo, um. I guess that was it, but you know, we were all really, really tight, and we all worked well together. We supported each other. You know, if one of us had a problem it was everybody's problem. Um, if one of us had a problem soldier, you know, we--we just all worked together, and, um--and we made things happen, you know.

Um, the colonel might have been in charge, but it was us E-6 section sergeants that made things happen. [laughs] And it was, you know, it was, uh--that was a 02:38:00new experience for me--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: -- um, just working like that with people on the reserve end. Um, but then it was difficult because all the people who wanted to talk about something personnel or pay related or whatever a school that they wanted to go to or, you know, anything like that, you know, they expected me to be available, but it's like, no, my job on the weekends is over here. Um, you know, and it--it--it was just always a con-- conflict there, um, that made it difficult, not impossible, but just a little more difficult. Um, and then especially when we would do our annual training, our summer camp, whatever you want to call it, um, you know, I wouldn't--I'm not working in personnel. I'm working over here, and, you know, [laughs] you want me to fix your pay problem, well, come set up my tent. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: You know, come wash my pans, and then we'll talk. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, but yeah.

SPRAGUE: So you mention in, uh, Real Life Library talking about after fourteen years of--from your initial enlistment, about finally being able to become what you wanted to, an engineer. Tell me more about that.

BENN: Um, I couldn't progress any higher, um, where I was in the reserves, um, in the unit I was in. Um, and by this time the Army--eh, the reserves had more centralized their promotion system, um, so that you could promoted outside of your unit and, like, the incoming unit had nothing to say about it, just like it is on active duty, and like it should have always been in the reserves but wasn't. So, um, um, I had decided that even it was gonna cost me my job, I wasn't gonna be stifled. You know, I had more invested at the time on the 02:40:00military end of it than I did the civilian end of it. Um, so I had decided that even if it caused me to be fired form my job, um, that I was not gonna pass up any--eh, I had passed up, um, at least once a promotion, um, but decided that just wasn't the best option overall, and, um, so I got promoted to the engineer battalion in Milwaukee.

And, um--and that was in food service. Um, and initially they tried to, um--well, okay, like I had mentioned, us section sergeants, we were real tight. But there was always the colonel and the upper management, um, and I didn't always see eye-to-eye with them. Um, and so, uh, they, uh--they weren't willing 02:41:00to work with me, um, and do anything to try to keep me in the job, uh, once I got promoted. And--and there is some leeway if a person wants to make it work. Um, so the, uh--the commander of the engineer battalion knew me from, uh, like conferences and things like that. Um, the commander was also, uh, the highest ranking, uh, civilian for that unit. Um, and so he knew things that were going on. Um, he knew that I had given up a promotion once, and, uh, um, it just happened that, uh, someone had left that unit, um, a civilian position, at the same time that, um, the job here in Madison was trying to remove me from federal--federal service. And so, uh, he offered me the unit administrator job 02:42:00there, so I took it.

Um, and then, um, not wanting to stay in food service--I mean, I--I could have. I might have, but I had the opportunity to, um, go to a different section and do the carpentry course, and of course, when that was offered to me, I was all over it. And even as--as it was happening I didn't even really realize it, but, you know, it hit me later, like, holy cow, [laughs] this is what I wanted in the first place fourteen years ago. So yeah, that was, uh--that was really exciting, and, um, it was a great, uh--great, uh, school, learned a lot of things. Um, I own a house in Sun Prairie. I have for, by now, thirty years. Um, at the time I was probably a relatively new home owner, but I wanted to build a deck on the 02:43:00back of my house, and it was right after I finished the--the carpentry, masonry school in the Army, and, uh--in the reserves. And, uh, the--the people at the, uh, you know, whatever the pre-- permitting office is at the city, um, they didn't think that I could build a deck. [laughs] Cause they kept, you know, well, who's gonna build it for you? I am. Well, no. We're not--you're not getting the permit unless you have a contractor, you know. And it's like, I've got half a dozen neighbors who didn't have to have contractors. Why are you--you know? And so one day--

SPRAGUE: You're the owner of the property. Y-- you can do it.

BENN: I brought in the manual.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: The field manual, [laughs] and I started flipping through pages, and I--you know, like, and I'm talking, by then, to the city engineer. And I'm like, look, I've learned how to set posts to sustain a bridge in a river for tanks to cross, and you think that I can't apply that logic to a deck in my backyard? 02:44:00[laughs] And with that he flipped through the manual a little bit, and he's like, really, you learned all this? And I'm like, yeah, really. [laughs] I got the permit. [laughs] But things like that, that, um, yeah, other people probably wouldn't have been questioned, but it was--it was rather funny, but--

SPRAGUE: So what was the name of the--the unit that that was in?

BENN: Four Six--no, no, no, I'm sorry. The nine-- nine-sixty-first engineer battalion.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And, uh, you have a great story on the Real Life Library about Camp Grayling?

BENN: That was the second part of the school. The first part was weekends, um.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: And a lot of that was, you know, the--the theory, the principles in building and everything, and we did do some, I think they probably went to become a couple of the instructor's hunting shacks. But we did do some actual construction work while we were on the weekend course.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, but obviously to try to do that on a weekend, you know, um, isn't the most feasible thing. Um, but it wrapped up with, uh, you have X number of weekends. Most reserves schools are like that, X number of weekends with two weeks, generally, in the summer to finalize it. And with that we, um--we demoed, and we tore down and built, um, a garage at one of the family housing units, and we also, guess what? Built a deck on the post commander's house. [laughs] Camp Grayling is a National Guard Base, and the house sat overlooking this big, beautiful lake. Um, Northern Michigan there, it's really, really pretty up there. Um, and big lake, we'd all go down there in the evenings, um, after classes, and we'd hang out there. Um, generally there was some drinking involved. There was a lot of, you know, we did a lot of swimming, lot of 02:46:00talking, just hanging out on the beach. Um, one time one of the girls had gone in the port-a-potty there, and the guys went over, and they're rocking it, you know, and just silly things like that. We had a blast. It was a great time.

Um, I think there were three of us women, and the rest was all guys, and, uh, probably about fifty of us all together. Um, [laughs] um, but one morning then we--we didn't wake up in time for the 5:30 PT because we had been down at the lake too long the night before, and, uh, we woke up as we heard them calling cadence, you know, come down one side, one road, which was on one end of the barracks, and then down to the end and around another street and back up the street on the back side of the barracks. So we woke up when we heard them coming down one way, and we--we all hop out of bed and throw on our PT uniform real 02:47:00fast, and we crept out the back door, and we're hiding between some parked cars. You know, yeah, when they come running up the other way, we're just gonna jump in and act like we been there all along, right? [laughs]

The guys were laughing so hard, and they tried to defend us and everything, you know, it was so flipping funny. And even the--the person, the--the lead instructor, um, was probably an E-8, you know, and he--he was like, just shaking his head. And he said, you know, he goes, that was really clever. It was really hilarious that you all tried to do that. And he goes, "And I got to admit, if you were--you know ,if any of the guys had done it it probably never would have noticed, but," you know, and he said, you know, "I'm--I'm obligated to do something. You have to be disciplined, so, you know, you got PT for the rest of the week, or, uh, remedial PT for the rest of the week, which meant at the end 02:48:00of the day after classes, you know, we had to do some more PT. Not really a big deal, and several of the guys would stay with us, you know, if we had to go run a mile or whatever. They'd hang out and do it with us, and then we'd all go back to the lake. [laughs] It was so funny though. It was so comical. We laughed about that for quite some time. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Okay, um, that is gonna end section two of the interview. We will pick it-it up--up again at another time and begin with section three. Thank you.

[break in audio]

SPRAGUE: This is Luke Sprague and Elizabeth Benn. This is the section three or third segment of her oral history event--uh, interview, again, with Elizabeth Benn, segment three. And, uh, we had just finished talking about Camp Grayling 02:49:00and, uh, the hiding in the--uh, behind the vehicles with PT, and, uh, how that went down. And that's a great story. And, um, I was gonna pick back up again with, um, December 1996 and--and that--that deployment and how that went with--with the three children. So--

SPRAGUE: Okay. Um, um, as you might remember, '96 was an election year, and one of the things that Clinton, um, ran on his reelection campaign was a promise to bring all the troops home from Bosnia and Croatia, that area, by Christmas. [laughs] So the election's in November, and then, um, about three weeks after the election--no, it wasn't even that. It might have been ten days or so, um, I 02:50:00had about a, um, probably not even two weeks' notice, uh, that I would--would be leaving. Um, my report date, I think, was the fourth of December of '96. Um, we had some processing and training at Fort Benning, Georgia and then went to Germany for more training, um, specific to the area, and especially, uh, with mines. There had been landmines placed, but they didn't keep good records, and even where records had been kept, it rains so much there, and as snow thaws and--and--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: -- washes down hillsides, um, there was really no way of knowing where the mines would have ended up.

SPRAGUE: So before you deployed to Bosnia, was it? Or you straighten me out on 02:51:00that. We'll come back to that.

BENN: Um, yeah, yeah, we'll come back to that.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Tell me, um, a little bit about the deployment and, uh, little bit more about with--with the family and--and handing off and--and going overseas? What was that like?

BENN: It was very, very difficult. Um, I had just remarried, um, earlier that same year. And, um, my former husband was living in--in Iowa. Um, he was very reluctant to take the kids, even though that was, uh, the agreement that we had, that was stipulated in, uh--in our divorce. Um, and it was also a little hard for the kids because, um, my son was in third grade, and my daughter was in 02:52:00kindergarten. My oldest daughter, um, was a junior in high school, and, um, she ended up staying in the house by herself. She wasn't, uh, a wild child, let's say. She was fairly responsible, um, and, yeah, we didn't have sidewalk at the time, [laughs] so there was no worry with shoveling a sidewalk. And, and we had a--a neighbor who looked out for the driveway. Um, actually our neighbor was a World War II veteran. He'd been a POW [prisoner of war] in Germany. Um, Floyd Schmidt, he's kind of a big name in the area. He passed away a couple years ago. Um, but yeah, he was--he and his wife were always there for--for me and for the kids. Um--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. And remind me, what was the name of the town that was in?

BENN: That was here in Sun Prairie.

SPRAGUE: Sun Prairie, okay, yeah.

BENN: Mm-hmm, yes.

SPRAGUE: Okay. Wow.

BENN: Um, yeah, and I--I signed power of attorney, um, for my oldest, um, to another neighbor, um, who, um, my--my daughter, my kids were all close with that family as well. Um, and she did okay. She did fine on her own. Um, but the younger two, um, being the middle of the school year, um, my son was in hockey, um, he ended up--well, my parents came up over Thanksgiving, um, and took the kids with them back to Iowa. They--they also lived in the same town where my in-laws and the ex lived. Um, so my parents took the--well, ended up being just my daughter down there, um, to her dad's. And, uh, she--she had--I--I didn't 02:54:00realize until years later, she had never been away from her brother, and, um, s-- it--something resonated with her even decades later, um, in her mind, as she would get older, she thought that she had done something wrong that, um, caused her to be separated from her brother. [laughs]

And, um, yeah, and in her mind it was longer than what it was. It was--it was only about a month, um, but I'm sure to a--a five-year-old, you know, it would seem like an eternity.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, so my--my son, a third-grader, stayed with my daughter so that he could finish the semester of school and also play hockey, um, up until the holidays. Um, and, yeah, I think about it now, a junior in high school and 02:55:00a--what is that, maybe eight-year-old [laughs]? Gosh, today I might even go to jail for that. [laughter] Um, but anyway, uh, we had good neighbors, um, like I said earlier, my daughter was very responsible and trustworthy. Uh, and they--they did just fine. Um, so they went down to Iowa then. Um, oh, I guess I forgot to mention, I had remarried. Um, but he lived in Dubuque, Iowa. Um, so he wasn't here. He was in Sun Prairie. He was, um, still working at John Deere and too much invested in it, you know, for retirement and everything to--to leave the job. So, um, that's a lot of why the kids didn't stay home. Um, but also 02:56:00it--it wasn't his responsibility really. It was their father's responsibility, um, to have them. But, um, he had been pretty much absent from their lives from when the youngest was about fifteen months, and then my sun would have been around four. Um, so, you know, four years later they--they didn't really know him, and they didn't really--they were--they were very reluctant about going.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, so when I was at Fort Benning, um, my--my youngest, she always had this affinity for pink houses, and on the way to where she went to preschool and then to school there was a--a pink house that we always drove by. So in the town of Columbus, Georgia, next to Fort Benning, um, there's a row of older houses, 02:57:00and there was a--not a big Victorian but a smaller Victorian-style house, um, with the lattice work and all that, and it was painted pink. [laughs] So I took pictures, and--and this is before digital, took pictures and mailed 'em to her, and, um, I was writing letters and sending cards every several days, um, to the kids. Um, I suppose we talked on the phone a few times. Uh, I guess I--that wasn't anything monumental that I remember. I just remember a lot of letter writing and sending pictures of things.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, so we had a few weeks at Fort Benning, and then, um, oh, maybe it was only a week and then went to Germany. And, um, I can't even remember the name of 02:58:00the town. Um, it was near Darmstadt, but I don't recall the name of the town. Oh, Babenhausen, that was it. Um, and that was maybe another week or so of training. Um, rules of engagement and the issue with the landmines, um, and a lot of what-would-you-do situations. They even showed some films from when the Irish were fighting, and, um, you know, some touchy, like, what would you do in this situation? And it was live footage from things that happened, uh, during the troubles in Ireland.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: So that was--that just really stuck with me, you know, that--that they were using that. But I suppose, you know, it was current, and, uh, relatively current, and, um, relevant. It just, I don't know, really struck a--a nerve 02:59:00there, something that I remembered.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: What was the unit that you deployed with?

BENN: Um, by then I was with the Four Sixteenth Engineer Command, uh, with their--their unit at Fort McCoy. They were headquartered in Chicago.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, and I had been promoted to master sergeant by that point.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: And--and your r-- and a-- as master sergeant, uh, forgive me for not knowing, what position or roll did you fill in that unit?

BENN: I was--let's see. That one I think I was--yeah, I was the personnel supervisor, um, in the unit. But they deployed me as, um, my secondary MOS in a construction engineer. Um, so I actually didn't get, um, much time to work in 03:00:00that field. Um, they--well, okay, it was a fairly large group, maybe not large-large but probably two dozen or so of us. And we were split into a few different groups based on skills. Um, and even all the other people, they were higher ranking. Um, they weren't, like, the workers. They were the supervisors and inspectors, um, of the engineering projects. Um, myself and several others, we ended up doing most of our time there in Germany in Heidelberg with the office for the deputy chief of staff for engineering, um, at the headquarters of 03:01:00US Army Europe.

Um, me, of course, because of the personnel experience, um, and it was covering a lot of the troop rotations for the region, um, in the engineering field at least, um, and then there were some other, um, intel things that, uh--briefings for the general that I was involved in also. Um, let's see. During that--about midway through--well, okay, [laughs] where I was staying, I--I ended up meeting, um, a group of--of people who were--they were prior military, Air Force and Army, um, but they were jet mechanics and elec-- e-- electricians, and they were 03:02:00doing upgrades to Black Hawk helicopters. Um, I and I got to know them real well. And through that I got to know a lot of the pilots and, uh, support crew and stuff.

So, um, again, never being one to want to sit in the office all the time, uh, as equipment and different supplies and things needed to get to, um, our engineer units quickly, um, [laughs] I would talk to some pilots, and they needed hours and everything, and, um, somehow we made the arrangements, and I got to go, um, fly into, um, Croatia and, um, a couple of times that to there taking--one time it was a bunch of laptops. Um, another time I don't recall exactly what, but, 03:03:00uh, taking things down there. And then we always had special requests, um, that they couldn't get at their small PXs, uh, within the zone. So, um, did a lot of that. Um, my--my parents' church, uh, they got groups of people who made, um, Christmas cookies and sent them over there to the different locations where I--I knew people. Um--

SPRAGUE: What can you tell me about being in country and receiving things from home?

BENN: I didn't really need anything in Heidelberg. Um, yeah, so mostly it was just the phone calls, and, in those days, international calls were very expensive, even as they were in the '70s. Um, so and there again the time difference. Um, so what, if, you know, my--my kids' bedtime is, like, when I'm 03:04:00at work, you know. So it was hard to arrange phone calls with the kids, and of course it was cheaper to call from the US two Germany rather than the other way around. Um, so me calling them was--was not as feasible. Um--

SPRAGUE: Did you have control numbers that the Army used to issue in '96 so you could call back home, or did you--

BENN: No.

SPRAGUE: -- commercial calling card or--

BENN: No, no.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Uh-uh.

SPRAGUE: Kay.

BENN: And yeah, the whole deployment thing at that point in time was, um, people just didn't know that--that anyone, you know, was deploying. By then it had turned to a peacekeeping operation. And your average person had no idea that 03:05:00there were still troops being sent there, especially after Clinton campaigned on bringing all the troops home. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: What was the name of that operation or mission?

BENN: Operation Joint Endeavor.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Dubbed operation in the joint forever. [laughter]

SPRAGUE: Now, you mentioned it earlier, eh, but if you could help me flesh it out at all, eh, a little bit--maybe a little bit more about what you did once you were in, uh, Bosnia and Croatia in terms of the job itself?

BENN: Okay. Um, near the end of my--my tour there, uh, I think it was nine months, um, but near the end, at about month seven, I, um--I think someone had to leave early from the main base in Taszár, Hungary. And so I went down to fill that position. And with that, we did a lot of, uh, day trips into parts of 03:06:00Bosnia and Croatia. And we were doing mostly bridge inspections. Um, we did a lot of coordinating with local officials for, uh, repairing roads, and, well, repairing roads that, uh, mostly, um, that the heavy equipment that the military operates, um, um, is pretty damaging to the little lane and a half roads that were considered highways.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Uh, mind you, it was not long after, um, the Soviet Union fell apart, so their maintenance on roads and such was not, uh, what it was in other parts of the world. Um, so yeah, we--there were people there. I mean, if you have a car, 03:07:00it was a very, very small one. You might remember the Yugo. [laughs] You'd see a lot of those. Um, even the tractors that the farmers operated were much smaller, and you would see a lot of, uh, horse and buggies on the roads, um, or horses drawing farm equipment. Um--

SPRAGUE: What did you think of that?

BENN: I--I thought it was fascinating, um, just to see something different than what we usually see here. Um, it gave me a p-- an appreciation for, um, how far, you know, more advanced we were. Um, I guess if you live your whole life with certain things, you don't understand that the rest of the world may not have certain things or be at the same level, um, and just something that, until you 03:08:00actually see it, you just don't really feel it.

SPRAGUE: How was, uh, Bosnia, or it was Bosnia, correct? Uh, c--

BENN: I went to both Bosnia and Croatia.

SPRAGUE: Croatia, okay. Um, how did that differ from Germany in terms of the conditions?

BENN: Um, at the--even within Hungary, well, okay, in Bosnia and Croatia there was not much of anything that you could do other than your duty, um, unless you got a pass to go to, um, one of the basses in Hungary. There were two, um, Kaposvár and Taszár. And at those places they had, um, more R and R types things like beer tents, [laughs] certain places that were nearby in the town that were deemed safe that we could go to. Um, in Hungary you--even though you 03:09:00had access to things, you were required to grow--go in groups of no less than ten. And oftentimes--

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: -- like, say on the weekends, they would plan a trip to, I don't know, say going to the town for a movie or go see, I don't--um, one day we planned a horseback riding at, um, a farm, uh, an equestrian center that was not far. But trying to get at least ten people to agree on something to do was surprisingly difficult. [laughs] I would think, like, my gosh, don't you want to get off this place, you know? I've only been here a month and you've been here six months, and [laughs] like, wow, no, I'll do just about anything with nine of my best friends to get out of here, you know.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: But surprisingly, it was difficult to find people who would agree, um, on 03:10:00something to do for a Saturday when, you know, it might be your only day off. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow. So, um, when you were, uh, off camp or off post, were you in civilian clothes, or were you in, uh, uniform?

BENN: Usually--usually out of uniform.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Cause you wanted to be less conspicuous.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Okay.

BENN: Even when we went to Budapest, um, for meetings with, um, the different ministries, um, even though it was official duty, we went in civies.

SPRAGUE: There--there any experiences that you had in Bosnia that you'd like to share or Croatia?

BENN: Um, did we talk about, like, the aircraft and s-- the Russian things before?

SPRAGUE: No, we didn't.

BENN: Okay.

SPRAGUE: No, we haven't yet.

BENN: Oh, okay, okay. I must have been thinking back on Real Life Library. Um, a 03:11:00part of what we had--well, part of what we did was reporting, um, as we would fly into or even over--I just remember flying into Zagreb, um, and we were counting Russian aircrafts, helicopters, uh, planes, even, uh, wheeled vehicles. We were counting everything that was Russian. [laughs] I guess under the--their peace agreement they--you know, every country was allowed so many of whatever, you know, especially with the Russians. It was only so many MiGs and so many whatever. Um, so as we would fly in, um, or fly over someplace, like if it was a known Russian occupied area, um, as much as we could, you know, count vehicles, 03:12:00um, and that would get reported back to the general.

Um, we went another time, um, we crossed from one country to the other, um, the river--the Sava River, and, um, as I mentioned at the very beginning, I always grew--I grew up, always lived along the Mississippi River until I went in the Army, and, um, [laughs] so I see this river, and it was just totally dead. There was one barge-like boat that was, um, laying on the shore, um, had obviously been there a long time. Um, and there were three teenage boys, young teens like 03:13:00maybe thirteen, fourteen who was playing in the water, but also, um, from the--from the riverfront to where the houses were or the street, um, it was taped off, and it was marked as a known landmine area, yet here are these three boys down in the river, [laughs] playing, and, uh--and of course at that time we were in uniform. Um, and we were armed, and as they saw us walking over the bridge, they were flipping us off and mooning us. [laughs]

And another thing that really stands out in my mind even today, um, in those marked off areas there was a row of houses all combined, you know, like, like townhouses, um, um, but there was a--a long row of houses that sat on the 03:14:00riverbank, and the minefield was marked right up to their--almost to their doorways. Um, and there were chickens and dogs that couldn't read landmarks or the--the mine signs. [laughs] And they're just out there, the chickens plucking away in a minefield, and, um, dogs laying int eh sun, walking around in a minefield, ten feet from a house. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: And, yeah, that was, yeah. I can--in my mind I have the exact picture of that. Um, I never heard of anything happening there. Um, hopefully nothing ever did, but just that risk and, you know, the what-if and the--the likelihood, you know.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: It wasn't, like, really farfetched. It was--it was marked. [laughs] Um, and I--

SPRAGUE: Did you--

BENN: Oh, I'm sorry.

SPRAGUE: Go head, I'm sorry.

BENN: I also remember, um, we--so, you know, we're looking at engineer units there, um, people that are guarding bridges and roadways. Um, the traffic was--well, when we go in and, say, build a bridge that's been bombed out during the war, um, it's primarily for the NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] ops first, military ops first and civilian traffic is secondary. Um, and after a few years of that, the locals were getting kind of perturbed. Um, so we had--and there were still changes of--of fighting. Um, so we had, um, big guard checkpoints at--at these locations, and the guards, the troops there, they're in tanks. And, um, with shelters built out of sandbags, um, sandbags and tarp for a 03:16:00roof, and, uh, you know, they--I think they told us they did, like, five days there, and then they'd go back for two or three and keep rotating in and out like that.

But, um, you know, to live like they were, even though they were in a town, um, you know, you--you'd think they were in the woods somewhere. And, um, eh, I just wonder how it would--would feel, you know, like, you're in a tank, and, you know, like, what if you really had to do something, you know? Um--

SPRAGUE: So what was the purpose of the--for the listener, what was the purpose of the--the troops there, the allied troops there?

BENN: Peacekeeping.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Yup.

SPRAGUE: Kay.

BENN: Peacekeeping with tanks. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Did you have any incidents or things happen while you were there?

BENN: No, no.

SPRAGUE: Kay.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: I did, though, I--that's when I got to, uh, um, I hesitate to say use engineer skills, construction skills because obviously, um, I wasn't that experienced, but, um, um, the officers and the other NCOs that I was with, they were all--a lot of the officers were certified professional engineers in their civilian lives. Um, and they were very, very generous with--with sharing knowledge, you know, and showing me, um, you know, what we're looking for and all this. We would do inspections of the bridges to make sure that they were still, um, safe and operable. The heavy equipment can take a toll, um, in very little time. But also to make sure that no one had planted any explosives 03:18:00underneath them. Um, yeah. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Did you have a--a team working with you that came in, and--

BENN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: -- if they found something--

BENN: Yeah, yeah.

SPRAGUE: Oh, wow, okay.

BENN: [laughs] Um--

SPRAGUE: Did you have any of those where you ran in to one? Where they had set one?

BENN: No, no, I never did.

SPRAGUE: I'm just curious, yeah.

BENN: And I don't recall, in the time that I was there, I don't recall that we had any incidents with that. Um, there were a lot of people who were in either--well, most of them were--were in Bosnia, um, and a--a lot of the people then, when you had a day off, they would, um, visit local orphanages, which are still a thing over there, and, um, pretty crowded. Um, what they referred to as Gypsies or Romas, um, you know, darker complected, um, where people just didn't 03:19:00keep their children, for whatever reason, you know. Um, some of them were war orphans, but most of them were just sort of discarded kids, if they had, say, down syndrome or any sort of disability, um, and people just, I don't know if it was economics or shame or both, just, you know, they weren't desirable, and they put 'em in an orphanage and be done with them.

Um, and of course, the older kids, the less adoptable they are. We had, uh, a lot of people that f-- from the different bases, not just our unit but all the units, um, I think the chaplains arranged it, um, visiting the orphanages, and I know probably half a dozen of our guys ended up adopting children from the 03:20:00orphanages where--where they visited and taking them--bringing them to the US.

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: And, you know, I guess that's something that your average person wouldn't know cause things like that, at least back then, didn't make news.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um , let's see. What other interesting things from that?

SPRAGUE: So did you make any connections at the orphanages or any particular or--

BENN: No, I did not. No.

SPRAGUE: Okay. That's okay, yeah. Did you make any connections maybe with any of the local nationals or any particular--

BENN: In Germany I did, um, and that brings up a good point about, um, Bosnia and Croatia, um, or the whole--the whole Balkan region in general. Um, we weren't--it was in our training in Kapos-- no, in, um, Babenhausen in Germany. 03:21:00Um, it was pushed on us over and over that, um, you, even when someone is trying to be friendly, you know, if they--if you're, say, at a guard post and a local comes up with, you know, coffee or baked goods or whatever, a meal, um, we weren't supposed to accept it, not so much that it might be intentionally or unintentionally contaminated, but, um, that if the Muslim family brought you something and the Christian family next door saw you accepting it, then they would think that they were siding with them or vice versa. Um, and when people would go to, like if you were in town and they were having, say, something like a farmer's market, um, you--you couldn't buy from anybody because you don't know which side they fall on, and you can't look like you're favoring one side over another.

SPRAGUE: Did you get any sense of the dynamic between the Christian population and the Muslim population and other populations that were there?

BENN: Um, by that point, because it was after the fighting mostly had ended, um, by that point I think most of the common people were just plain tired of it, and most of the--whichever group wasn't wanted in that area had left. Um, a lot of people that left and--and never went back, but, um, some of them were able to go back eventually. Um, but anyway, uh, a lot of people had left, um, and at the time weren't living there. So it was, say, mostly a Christian neighborhood or mostly a Muslim, Jewish, whatever neighborhood, um, and over there you even 03:23:00have, they're Christian but the orthodox, um, where they don't like the Catholics, and [laughs] you know, it gets deeper than Muslims and Christians, you know.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm, yeah.

BENN: Um, one thing that I do remember, and--and we were warned about was, uh, we--the construction materials had to be very closely guarded, and even as things were built, um, because the civilian population didn't have access to a Home Depot or whatever, um, they had nothing to rebuild their roof or their wall that was bombed out. Um, so they would take sheet metal, guardrails, um, planks of wood. You know, anything they could get, um, that could be used for patching a wall or a roof, they were taking it. Um, initially as roads were being build, 03:24:00you know, they--or a bridge especially, you put a guardrail on it, and, you know, three days later it's gone. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Did that happen a lot or once in a great while or--

BENN: Yes. No, it was--

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: -- a very, very common thing. But, you know, you understand the--the desperate need for the people, and you can understand how--how it would happen. I'm sure that in any other time they were honest people. Um, but necessity. Um, let's see, what else about that? When I was in Germany, um, they sent me to, uh, I think it was a two-week long training with, um, the Army Corps of Engines. Um, 03:25:00and it was some construction things but mostly related to, um, roadways and such. Um, and I got some sort of certificate, and I just thought it was amazing to have a certificate of completion of training from the Army Corps of Engines. [laughs]

And now though I can hardly remember what--what that training was about, but, um, just remember that I--I got that. [laughs] It was also, um, I mean, if--I figured, you know, if I have to be here and I can't have my family with me, I don't want to be sitting in Heidelberg, Germany. I want to go do something.

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: Um, and there had been other times, um, mostly when someone was taking leave, uh, if it was like, say, two weeks or longer, um, and they would--they knew, like, our guys downrange knew that I was anxious to get out of the 03:26:00headquarters, um, so any time they could think of some reason that they might need an extra NCO, they would request me. Um, but our guys downrange were working for the corps of engineers, and we were with the deputy chief of staff for engineers. Um, and there was some bitterness between the two generals over who got what. [laughs] So it was--I was never allowed to go for those other--other instances, um, because--basically because the two generals, uh, couldn't agree on what--what they would share. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: So it sounds like a lot of the, um--you volunteered for things to get downrange and get out of the headquarters. Now, the headquarters was in Germany in this case or in--

BENN: Heidelberg, Germany.

SPRAGUE: Heidelberg, Germany.

BENN: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: But you wanted to go back, was it back into Bosnia or Croatia or--

BENN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: And then explain to me, uh, how did you get there? Because I don't know as a listener. I mean, I have some ideas in my head of how you may have gotten there. Did you fly? Did you ride a train? Did you--

BENN: Oh, yeah, flying.

SPRAGUE: Flying?

BENN: Flying.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Yeah. Yeah. The train would have been, oh, goodness, I don't know how long, and plus, once you would get out of Hungary, you probably didn't have, um--you couldn't--I don't know that trains were even operating then. I know we were deploying train units, um, which are unique to the reserves, I think, if I recall correctly. We were re-- deploying a lot of the rail units. Um, and I believe they were rebuilding track.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: So when you get back downrange, for lack of a better term, in Bosnia or Croatia, you mentioned it in passing, uh, what--what were, um, other than 03:28:00these--there were beer gardens. What else was there to do in the down time?

BENN: That would be in Hungary only, not in--

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: -- um, in Bosnia or Croatia. Um, you could try to plan an outing, and that's where it got to the, um, you know, ten people minimum. Um, so that was always touchy. Um, the one day that we went to Budapest to meet with the different ministries, um, it was mostly in the morning that our meetings were, so the afternoon we were free to do, you know, sightsee, and then we had planned to go to a concert in the evening. And it was, um, Joan Baez opened for Emerson, 03:29:00Lake, and Palmer. [laughs] Like all of the, uh--the '70s bands that--

SPRAGUE: Oh, yeah, yeah.

BENN: You know, it was sort of like eastern Europe became the Vegas for all the--the older bands. [laughs] But, um, yeah, so that day we, uh--I'll tell another funny story. [laughs] Um, there was a--one of our translators, a Hungarian young man, um, who would hang out with--with all of us a lot, um, and so we're in the city of Budapest. It's probably around noon or one. And, um, the group of us, um, we're in civies, but, uh, we got separated from, uh, the--it happened to be the translator and I got separated from the rest of the group as they were crossing a--a--you know, the walk sign at a very, very, busy 03:30:00intersection. Um, and of course by the light--by the time the light changed again, they were immersed in the crowd, you know. We didn't--we didn't see them. So, um, it happened that they translator and I just, he showed me all the sights in the city, um, all the amazing places and, um, told me some local history and things like that, which was - was really neat.

So, um, and took me to a--a very small, very, very local restaurant, um, for authentic Hungarian food. Ooh, that's another thing I remember, in all of the mess halls, the dining facilities, um, Hungary and downrange, um, they employ local civilians, and I just remember seeing, let's say, Hungarian people who 03:31:00have likely never been exposed to Mexican food, and things like that, um, and also, um, particularly US troops who had never been exposed to, um, a lot of the other dishes that you'll find in Eastern Europe. Um, and it was just a--a good cultural blending, I thought, exposing people to other things that, especially under the Soviet Union, those people, um, wouldn't have had access to.

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: Um, and we--we were told that, um, prior to, what was it, '91? Is that when the Soviet Union broke apart?

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Maybe '9--

SPRAGUE: There abouts, yeah.

BENN: -- '91, yeah. Um, so apparently under the Soviet Union they were not 03:32:00allowed to learn English. Um, they weren't allowed to speak it or--or learn it. Um, and so there were a lot of contractors even who, um, didn't speak much English. And I guess that's probably common, um, wherever we're going, like Iraq, Afghanistan. I know that not all the contractors are fluent. Um, but, um, I just thought it was cool from the food side of it that, you know, a way of blending cultures. I don't believe I had ever heard of borscht before. And, uh, I tried, but no. [laughter] It was like beet soup with hot dogs, and just no. [laughs] Um, there were some other dishes, though, that, uh--that I discovered, 03:33:00and--and liked.

Um, let's see. I don't know. Can't really think of a-- oh, we were in, um, oh, like--like where Congress meets, you know, and the way the rows of chairs and the front with the desks and everything, um, um, in an auditorium like that where they're--the Hungarian, I'm sorry, I don't know their government structure, would have--whatever their equivalent to probably our Congress would be, um, and where it was demanded and eventually voted on to leave the Soviet Union. Um, and we were shown that, that hall, that auditorium. And there happened to be cleaning ladies in there, [laughs] and it was--it just struck me, 03:34:00you know. It's like, wow, five years ago, six years ago, by then it would have been, '97, you know, that's what was happening right here in this very room, you know.

SPRAGUE: Wow, yeah.

BENN: And, um, it was interesting to see that. Um, so back in Germany, uh, we had weekends off most of the time, um, not always. Uh, we would have problems with, um, some of the communications where one morning the general, as he's getting dressed in the morning and has CNN on TV, hears about, um, a local--well, okay, so downrange in--in Bosnia and Croatia we eventually got the idea that it would be better to have, um, locals or the local, you know, their military search or the landmines rather than our own people. Um, and you know, 03:35:00like, you planted it. You pick it up. You find it, you know. You take the risk rather than us. And when I say I mean all of the NATO troops. It wasn't just US.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, so one morning, um, the evening before, um, a Bosnian soldier was killed as he was screening a minefield. Um, and by 8:00 when were to brief the general, we didn't know anything about it, but he had heard it on CNN that morning. And he was not pleased. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: Um, these days I would imagine things, you know, communication is quicker because '90-- '96, '97, um, you know, you'd be surprised at how much things have 03:36:00progressed, um, since that time.

SPRAGUE: Did you have much interaction with any of the NATO allies?

BENN: Yes, yes.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Quite a bit.

SPRAGUE: Oh, really, okay. Tell me a little bit about that.

BENN: Um, I don't--I guess there was nothing really remarkable, um, just that we, you know, sometimes would socialize off duty. Um, and you know, meeting--well, so most of them are gonna be men, and some of them had their wives or families with them, you know, but then meeting women who were from Norway or Denmark or Italy or, you know, wherever, um, it was--it was a lot of fun, you know, and you--one--one time, um, they were from Denmark, the--all the pilots referred to him as the Flying Dane. Um, but they--they were stationed in 03:37:00Heidelberg also. Um, so they had a house, and they invited a number of people over for dinner. Um, and it was just fascinating to be around so many people from so many different backgrounds. Um, there wasn't really a common language. And I speak some Spanish and some German. And, um, some of the guys from the US that were there, um, had their--w-- were Hispanic and had their wives with them.

And, um--and then, you know, Spain, Spanish, and Italian is--a lot of the words are similar. Um, and well, I'll be honest, give me a few drinks, and [laughs] 03:38:00I'm' a linguist, by golly. Um, anyway, I was translating, so like the, say Danish and whatever, um, you know, those countries they speak half a dozen languages, um, and I was translating things like English and German and Spanish, and, um, later in the evening the guys were teasing me. Giver her another shot of Jägermeister, and she'll be speaking Chinese. [laughter] We had a lot of good times. Um, there's--there's still a few people that I keep in touch with from that, um, and some who have passed away since, but, um, a few people, and the, uh--the place where I stayed, I'm still in touch with, with them. They were like family to me. Um, and whenever I get to Germany I try to make--not that I do often, but whenever I'm traveling, if I'm going that way, I'll make appoint 03:39:00of going to Heidelberg to visit. Um, otherwise Facebook, you know. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, I used to email in--in '96, '97 was still fairly new. Um, even computers in the average home was still kind of a new thing. Um, so I would keep in touch with family that way because it was a little bit quicker. Um, and I started what I called, um, the daily giggle-byte [laughs] where I would send a joke to family and friends in the US every morning. You know, start the day with a joke. [laughs] And my kids will still tease me about that, um, you know, if I try to tell a joke then, you know, like, ew, Mom, and her giggle-bytes. [laughs] 03:40:00And, you know, that came from gigabytes on a computer, so--

SPRAGUE: Yeah, of course.

BENN: -- it was humorous at the time. Um, but then I, after my f-- father had died, um, and my mom was going through things in his office at home, um, she found a file folder that had every email that I had sent during that time. And I still have it, uh, but to look through that and, you know, some--you know, things that I talked about or ridiculous jokes that were funny at the time that [laughs]--um, yeah. But I--I--I was touched to know that my dad had kept all of those emails. [laughs]

Um, let's see. What else? Oh, so when we were off on weekends, um, I would try to take advantage of it as much I could. Um, the--we had the ITT [Information, 03:41:00Tickets, and Travel, the Information, Travel, and Tour office. Um, they would arrange troo-- troops--trips to different cities, um, some of them in different countries. Um, a lot of times you--you would meet at midnight and ride a bus till 8:00 in the morning and get to wherever, um, the one I'm thinking of right now is, um, my visit to Prague. Um, so you ride the bus all night. You get there in the morning. Um, you--we would have a guided tour in the morning, and then you were free on--in the afternoon, and then meet back up later in the evening, um, for the very long ride bus l-- bus ride back to Heidelberg.

Um, so in Prague, in the afternoon, I was sitting on a park bench in the--in the 03:42:00square of the city, and, um, s-- there was a group of three women, probably close in age to me. And, uh, two of 'em sat down on the bench next to me, um, and said something, and I was like, you know, don't understand. Uh, I think I just gave them the look of, like, don't under-- I don't understand you. Um, and, you know, hand signals and all that. Um, but then the woman who was next to me asked, um, if I spoke German, and I, "[German] German," or Deutsch. Um, and so we were talking for a little bit, and then finally I was like, you know, I didn't understand, and she looked at me really funny, and she asked me in German if I was German, and I had to fess up. And I said, no. And she asked, you know, 03:43:00where I was from then, and I told her that I was from the US, and she was asking why I was there. I told her I was a soldier in the Army, um, mostly because that's all I knew how to say it in German.

Um, and her jaw just dropped, and then she told her--I don't know if they were sisters or friends or whatever, but, um, she told her companions that I was a US soldier, and they all just like--like it was some rare creature that they'd never seen before, but if you understand, you know, they were raised to hate us as much as we were raised to hate them in the Soviet Union. And then it was like, pictures, you know, like, you know, they were just in awe that, like, whoa, and especially that it would be a female and, um, you know, it was 03:44:00just--it was really interesting and, uh, another one of those really comical moments.

SPRAGUE: Any other moments from that deployment that you remember?

BENN: Um, the last month or so, maybe five weeks that, um, I was there, my kids were out of school, well, not the old-- the oldest was out of school, but she was working. Um, so the younger two, um, a week or so after they finished school for that year, um, my husband brought them over to Germany, and we got to stay--they got to experience some of Germany. Um, so that was significant for them. Um, yeah. And I was very, very grateful that--that they could come at that time. It was a good experience for all of us.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So, um--

BENN: Oh, yes, there is one other thing.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: [laughs] Um, and this I made reference to in Real Life Library also. Um, so near the end of the tour, um, when we're having a--a ceremony, um, people are getting their awards and recognitions and everything, um, and you're called up one by one. Um, so--and the--it was a two-star--two-star general. Um, I won't say the name. But, um--and as I mentioned, I was a master sergeant, an E-8. Um, so when he's handing me mine and you do the handshake and everything, um, he s-- he says, and he said it loud enough that people could hear, "My father was a master sergeant, but he didn't look anything like you."

And I just thought, like, of course he didn't. He was your father, not your mother, and what does that have to do with here and now? [laughs] And, you know, to say that during a ceremony, you know, like, maybe tonight at the barbecue or something but [laughs]--and I could hear, like, you know, s-- I think--I think that women in the--not that it was a huge audience, but, you know, probably sixty, seventy people, and you could just sort of hear this, [gasps], you know, like, oh, did he really say that, you know? [laughs] And I think there were a lot of men who probably just chuckled, which, yeah, today I would hope that wouldn't happen.

SPRAGUE: Mm. Okay. Uh, anything else you want to share about that incident and--

BENN: Um, that's pretty much it.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Pretty much it for the--the tour, I think.

SPRAGUE: Okay, well, in that case, let's take a break again. Um, and we'll end, uh, segment and section three of the interview with, uh, Beth Benn, Elizabeth Benn, and we'll start back on section four.

[break in audio]

SPRAGUE: Okay, this is, uh, Elizabeth Benn, um, Beth's it-- eh, section four or segment four of a four-part interview. Um, we're gonna start back up with, um, Elizabeth, and we--she had something she wanted to add on her deployment. Uh, go head, Beth.

BENN: Yes, I wanted to explain, um, or talk about how the, uh--the base that we used in Hungary, um, in Taszár, it was a former Soviet base, so they had all of 03:48:00their war heroes and I guess politicians, whoever, whatever is significant to them, um, statues and busts of--of those men and also the tanks and aircraft that were on--static displays were--were all of their equipment, which of course is different than ours. And it was, um, just really interesting to see it, and it felt really odd to be, um, in the space of what for a lifetime, you know, we had been told was our enemy. Um, and it was an interesting experience. But also, um, we had ammo storage. Um, we had bunkers that had been Soviet bunkers, uh, that we were using. And, uh, a lot of li-- live ammo, and we had armed guards 03:49:00around the perimeter. And the instructions were, you know, shoot first, ask questions later when it comes to the ammo.

Um, so the guards, with that instruction, um, they started noticing where fences, not at the top with the concertina wire but near the ground, fences that had been compromised, um, either, you know, managed to push it up or cut or whatever. Um, and eventually they found that it was children, say, ten-, twelve-, fourteen-year-olds, um, not toddlers, not young kids but young teens who, you know, challenged one another. You know, I bet you won't go in there. [laughs] And so they were challenging one another. They had no interest in the ammo. They had no clue what the risk was. Um, but they thought it was big fun, 03:50:00and once--once our guards figured out that it was not a threat, and, you know, these are young people, they're not gonna shoot a twelve-year-old kid. And, um, so that got addressed up the channels, how to handle that. Um, and what we ended up doing, we had--was it weekly?--maybe biweekly meetings with, um, local officials from a number of towns in the area. Maybe it would have been like a county meeting. Um, but we would have all the NATO reps and, um, all of the local reps.

And so it got passed down through the channels to keep your kids away from that fence [laughs] because, you know, this is what our guards are supposed to do, and they don't want to hurt any children. Of course, even it had been justified it would have been one heck of an international incident, um, not to mention the 03:51:00trauma all the way around. Um, and another thing about those meetings. Uh, one of the--the translator for--he wasn't the one that worked with us. Um, maybe he was with the local government. Um, but a young man in his twenties. He had very long hair pulled up in a ponytail. And I remember thinking, you know, he would translate things. We had police chiefs, fire chiefs, mayors, um, like the public works, all these departments from various towns in the area, um, various cities that were--that were in on these meetings.

And, um, it was a good size room, and there were a lot of people, and here's this young man, and we have no idea, really, what he's telling them you know. He 03:52:00could have been telling them that we planned to bomb you all at midnight for all we knew, you know. And I just thought, my gosh, the trust, you know, and the responsibility put on this man, you know, the--the position of power that he held, it was remarkable. And, um, of course, I'm sure he was properly vetted and everything, but just especially in those days, so--so close to the end of the Cold War, you know, where in the past it--it just would have been unheard of, and you would have never trusted someone like that, you know. And this young kid with long hair and [laughs] translating, and he--he held the world at his fingertips right there.

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: So I just thought that was kind of signifi-- significant to paint a picture of what it was like at the time and felt it was worth sharing.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. So in dealing with the Cold War, being in the Army for the end of the Cold War, and then being in the--in the Army post-Cold War, what--what was that--you know, were there--what was that experience like, especially being stationed at that place in--in Hungary?

BENN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: That, eh, you know, any other details from that that you remember?

BENN: Just the--the really odd feeling somewhere between cool and creepy.

SPRAGUE: [laughs]

BENN: You know, equal parts of both, you know. Like, this is really awesome, but it's also a little bit creepy to be on this place, um, to imagine things that may or may not have happened there. Um, chances are, you know, like, the average soldier in any military, they're not always there for whatever the cause of the 03:54:00day is. Um, you know, they were there for the benefits, the--the employment, the training, whatever, um, but not always totally aligned with their government, you know. So probably most of them were not much different than we were. Um, but surely there were some, you know, high-ranking Soviet officials, um, and you just wonder, you know, [laughs] how many did you send to Siberia? [laughter]

Um, it also--um, I--I--World War II history always fascinated me, and, um, with that came Cold War novels, um, some true stories, but even, you know, the fictional stories, I just, to this day I love reading a Cold War novel--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: -- Cold War era novel. Um, and so partly my imagination from my readings, but you know, just to--to be there was unusual and really hit home with me.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, yeah, I guess that's all I can really say about it.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So tell me about returning to the United States.

BENN: Um, my family went maybe a week before I did, um, and went home. Um, we left Heidelberg. Our people downrange, we were all regrouped in Heidelberg. Then we went back to Babenhausen, um, for some out processing, and then back to Fort 03:56:00Benning for more out processing. And, um, and then I went home. It was August, yeah, some times in August, um, of '97. Um, yeah, it was, uh--

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: -- nothing remarkable really. It's--it's not like today, you know. Um, and I wish I had [laughs] some action stories to tell, but I--I don't really. Um--

SPRAGUE: So what--what was that--y-- you talked about it a little bit, about what it was to be like in Bosnia and Croatia where, uh, there wasn't much or there weren't--there weren't--there weren't things that we took for granted. What was--what when you came back to, was it Wisconsin?

BENN: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: What--what were the things did you--that you recognized right away?

BENN: Um, everything being in English. [laughter] Um, goodness. That was quite 03:57:00some time ago. Um, I--I guess really the biggest thing was, um, getting ba-- well, getting back in the routine of, uh--of parenting. Um, um, I--I--I didn't return to work right away. Um, by law you have ninety days, and I took it. Um, because my kids had been out of the school district, um, and they, I guess, you know, the class--the classes are all formed, uh, students are assigned to teachers, and the classrooms are all filled, um, even before August, based on enrollment, whatever their enrollment cutoff was. Um, whatever it was, I missed it, and, um, my daughter was able to go to first grade at the school closest to 03:58:00our house, but my son was bussed for fourth grade to another school in town for probably the first month of the year, of the school year, um, before they were able to get him back into, um, his home school. So, but, um, otherwise, um, just getting accustomed again to--to, uh, a regular life. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. Now, when you came back, were you on reserve status or were you on active duty?

BENN: Reserve.

SPRAGUE: Okay. And that was with which unit here?

BENN: I was with the Four Sixteenth Engineer Command.

SPRAGUE: Okay, yup. Okay. So the next thing I have, I have, um, in writing down here, uh, and--and I'm not sure if it's in order, is the Bazooka Beth moniker. 03:59:00Can you tell me about that?

BENN: That comes from, um, okay, I think I had mentioned earlier that I--my civilian employment was as a military technician, uh, where you have to be dual status in the reserves--

SPRAGUE: Yup.

BENN: -- um, to have the job. So, um, I was working in the building over on Wright Street near MATC [Madison Area Technical College] in Madison. It has since been torn down. Um, but we had a--a cavalry unit had been in that building. And, um, of course, you know, it's a small group of full-time employees. I think there were three units in the building, um, with probably three or four people working in each unit, so a dozen or so people working there. Um, we all knew each other well. And, um, especially with equipment and 04:00:00supplies, we helped each other out a lot. Um, And, uh, so the supply sergeant in the cav unit had, um, more of the old--the old LAW [Light Anti-Armor Weapons System], um, in their training. They're marked that they're not live and everything. Um, inert is the word they use. Um, he had more on hand than he did on the books. They were accountable items. Um, so he had a few extra, and one day he's like, you know, "Hey, Beth, I get your kids would like to have one of these." [laughs] And I was like, eh, sure, I'll take it home.

And of course, especially my son and his friends, they thought it was the coolest thing in the world. Tried to shoot things from it, tennis balls, potatoes, I think even eggs. One time I came home, and there were, like, eggs 04:01:00all over the lawn. [laughs] Um, but it--it wouldn't fire anything, but it was still a really cool thing to have around, and I still have it. But to the kids it was called a bazooka, now a LAW. [laughs] And, um--

SPRAGUE: And what's a LAW for the un-- uninformed reader?

BENN: A light tanti-tank weapon.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, so yeah, it's maybe--the circumference would be what can accommodate a tennis ball, what, maybe three inches, um, circumference, and--or, would that be diameter? I don't know. Whatever. Um, and maybe two feet long or so when you hold it over your shoulder. It's got the little flip-down handle, um, for when you put it over your shoulder. Um, my yard had trees and bushes all around, so sort of a natural fence, and, uh, luckily nobody could see in because the boys 04:02:00would play--they would camouflage there faces and play Army in the backyard and using their bazooka. Um, another thing that today would probably have the police at my doorstep. [laughter]

Um, but anyway, then it was loads of fun for the kids. Um, and somehow along the way they gave me the nickname, because of that, Bazooka Beth. And that has stuck with me, um, somet-- my kids are adults now. So sometimes they still will refer to me as Bazooka. Um, friends of theirs that I--in town that I still have contact with, it's always, you know, hey, Bazooka Beth! [laughs] And so after 04:03:00Real Life Library it, um, went even further. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: One time I was downtown near the square. Actually, I had just left WDBA [Windsor-Detroit Bridge Authority], and, uh, when they were in the Thompson building, and I--I thought I heard somebody say--I was crossing the street, and I thought I heard somebody holler, "Bazooka!" An di just thought, no, that can't be. And then I kept walking for a minute, and then I thought, no, that--who was that? And it was Garrett from Real Life Library. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Oh, my God, wow.

BENN: So, yeah. That was funny. But, no, it's a name that I haven't been able to shake.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Great story. So you're back. You're with the Four Sixteenth Engineering Command. Tell me about, um--help me with the sequence here because I have you saying that--maybe in the pre-interview you talked about taking on extra duties. You thought about making retirement. Help me--help me move your career forward 04:04:00in this--this portion. Walk me through that.

BENN: Okay. Um--

SPRAGUE: Before you became sergeant major.

BENN: Okay.

SPRAGUE: Walk me to that point. Yeah, walk me through that.

BENN: Okay. Um, I would--well, active-duty pay was--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: -- more than I was making as a civilian as GS-7. Um, and I kind of new that, you know, based on the retirement points that I had, primarily based on the, um, seven years of active-duty, um, I was toward the top end of--of retirement pay, and I knew that, um, the more than I did, the bigger the retirement check would be. And I was banking on that the military retirement 04:05:00would be bigger than the civilian retirement.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, and so getting as much active duty or extra drill time as I could. Um, but I mean, also there was a--a valid mission. Um, it wasn't like there were any favors or anything like that. Um, but I guess because whether Fort McCoy or the headquarters in Chicago, um, they knew that I was looking, always looking for extra tours of duty, um, and apparently had confidence that--i-- in my abilities. Um, so I did a lot of extra things at Fort McCoy and also, um, at the headquarters in Chicago. Um, there were a lot of things happening in the personnel world in the late '90s, um, you know, upgrading computer systems, um, you know, transferring records, um, automating and stuff like that. Um, so a lot 04:06:00of things in the personnel arena that they needed extra people for, um, something that you know is gonna be, say, a thirty-day project, not a--a year-long commitment.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: And where it was easier to bring someone on active duty than hiring a temporary civilian.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: So I got a lot of extra duty that way. Um, which of course, on a promotion board looks good. Um, the deployment, of course, especially in those days when almost nobody had a deployment, I even remember that the--the unit where I worked, we were--we--we had to do quarterly reports, the--the unit where I worked as a civilian, we had to do quarterly, um, mobilization reports. And I remember the XO, the executive officer, one evening, when we were all in there, 04:07:00um, working, supposedly working on our plans, um, he kind of tossed his hands up and said, you know, oh, it doesn't matter. We're never gonna deploy anyway. He goes, it doesn't really matter what you put in there. And that w-- well, that was probably before my deployment, but that was the attitude of most reservists.

Um, and to me especially, having been active duty and having had a child on active duty living in Germany, um, you had to have a plan where, you know, if the bricks hit the fan, who's gonna take care of my daughter, and who's gonna get her back to the US, and things like that. So I had always had, almost as long as I had been int eh Army, there had been a dependent care plan and especially active duty in German during the Cold War, those things were big 04:08:00issues. And to see this major in that position of authority, to blow it off as this'll never happen was really shocking to me. Um, but at that point, that's how most people in the reserves felt.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um--

SPRAGUE: Now, I have in here, um, at some point it's--you may have joined a new unit in a new position or--?

BENN: Yeah, um, when I got promoted, um, to sergeant major, um, well, okay, so when I was with the Nine Sixty-First Engineer Battalion, and that's when I finally got to go to the construction course--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: -- um, that was a promotion to E-7, sergeant first class.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, the transfer to the Four Sixteenth was the promotion to E-8--

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: -- master sergeant.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: And then, um, I was promoted to, um--well, and then in that time also, there would have been a point where I was not a dual status technician. I worked for four or five years down at the ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps], Army ROTC on campus--

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: -- at the University of Wisconsin.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, and that was not a dual status, so I could be in whichever unit I wanted.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, which did allow me to get promoted, um, easier than other military technicians.

SPRAGUE: And your time at the University of Wisconsin Madison, was it?

BENN: Mm-hmm, yes.

SPRAGUE: Were you on, um, active-duty status or reserve?

BENN: No, that was a civilian federal--

SPRAGUE: Okay. Okay, civilian.

BENN: -- civil service job.

SPRAGUE: Okay. What did you think--I'm curious, as a E-7 and then an E-8, but 04:10:00then working as a civilian with these young trainee wannabe officer cadets running around, what did you think of that as senior enlisted?

BENN: Um, they respected me. They knew my rank. Um, and, yeah, I--um, I--maybe because I had contacts at all the reserve units, um, for all the toys, like the cav unit that had, um, night vision device-- goggles, and, um, they got--they had, you know, the weapons, uh, whene-- uh, an ROTC unit, at least at the time, I can't say as to what they have now, but they didn't have M16s, yet they were required to go to Fort McCoy to the firing range. [laughs] So we had to--I was the supply technician there. Um, so it was on me to line up the weapons and any 04:11:00other equipment that we needed that we didn't have. Um, and the cav unit, obviously, had all the toys, and, uh, we became real good friends. [laughs]

Um, I guess, yeah, a lot of the cadets then, um, probably respected me more than they might have otherwise because I could get all the--the good toys. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Okay.

BENN: So--

SPRAGUE: Now, uh, and this may be a little out of sequence, but you mentioned one time about, I believe while you were in reserve status, about, um, you come into a new unit, and this--tell me about that, and the reaction.

BENN: Um, yeah.

SPRAGUE: And this may be a little out of sequence, but I'm just curious.

BENN: It was after, um--it was when I left ROTC. And this was, um--it was 04:12:00actually as a civilian. Um, but I was--I was not assigned to the reserve unit, um, yet. They would assign me there later, but I wasn't yet assigned there, and, um, um it was a lieutenant colonel, the battalion commander, and on our first meeting, he, um--you know, we talked, but he had said something to the effect of, I didn't look like an E-8, you know. And, um, that, um, I should, like, not--I--I should, like, kind of keep it casual and--and keep other people from knowing, you know, my rank and stuff because they might--you know, the guys might get jealous because, you know, you're this rank, and--and they're still, 04:13:00you know, E-5s or -6s or whatever, you know.

But it's like, well, did they deploy and leave their family? Did they go to college? Um, you know, I had, even as, um, a single parent, when I was, um, and with everything else, you know, I was working more than a forty-hour week and doing the reserves and all the extra I could get, yet I was still a student, and, um, got a bachelor's degree. Um, you know, I--I was doing the things that, if you read the regulation, this is what you need to get promoted. [laughs] And I knew that the people that the lieutenant colonel was referring to. They didn't do those things. They only did the minimum. They had nice jobs at Oscar Meyer or somewhere else, and they didn't need to go to school, and, you know, it's like--and they'd never been in any other unit. And, you know, so, like, well, 04:14:00you're limiting yourself. It's--it's not me. I didn't have it easy. I did what I needed to do.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, I think you're referring to something in--from Real Life Library.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: And right now that's slipping my mind, um, exactly what that was that he said.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Cause I--I remember that I asked him, you know, if--if that was--if that was a qualification for the job. Um, my gosh, but right now it's slipping my mind.

SPRAGUE: That's okay. That's--that's all right.

BENN: But it was something, you know, on the verge of sexist, um, misogynistic or whatever you want to call it. Um, you know, something that he would not have said to a male in that position.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So tell me about your--in the sequence here, tell me about your promotion to sergeant major and--and how that went down.

BENN: That was from the Four Sixteenth. Um, that was in '98, I think.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: And, um, that one took me with a--a promotion to the Eighty-Eight Regional Support Command, which at the time was headquartered in Minneapolis, which is a five d-- five-hour drive from Sun Prairie. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: But, hey, you know, like I said, you know, if that's what it takes to get promoted.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, and these days, it's my understanding, that, um, reservists are now paid for their travel. They're reimbursed, um, for their travel.

SPRAGUE: You weren't at the time?

BENN: No. No. [laughs] Um, and to save on expenses and, um, also because of the kids, um, I would get up at--I would go to bed very early on Friday and get up 04:16:00at 2:00 in the morning and be standing in formation at 7:30 Saturday morning [laughs] at Fort Snelling. Um--

SPRAGUE: And how--how long did you do that?

BENN: Several months, five or six maybe. And then somebody at the Eighty-Eighth picked up on the fact that I was a technician and that I should have been in the unit that I was working for. Um, so I got force fed on the unit, which they did not like because that was taking a spot that, you know, they wanted for one of their good old boys, um, somebody who looked like a senior NCO. Um, so yeah, it was--it was met with opposition from the beginning, and, uh, it was--it was not good.

Um, I was sent to a unit in Milwaukee, and they--it was for the brigade, which was over the battalion here in Madison, and, um, in Madison they expected the unit administrator, which was a civilian job, they expected me to be in Madison, you know, at least part of the weekend drill. Um, if they were doing something at Fort McCoy, they expected me to be there. But brigade would not let me do--have anything to do with my civilian job during my reserve time, and at the same time, they wouldn't, um, allow me to do any duty, not even a day or a half day, um, on an--at another time. And it was just a game they were playing. Other technicians were allowed to do it. Um, but because I was force fed on them, and 04:18:00at that time the--the promotion system in the reserves was relatively new. Before it was all in-house, and you were--you know, they promoted from within.

And it was right when they started forcing people, uh, forcing units to accept people from outside their unit, um, by promotion, and commands were very resistant to that initially. Um, so yeah, it--it did not go well. My father was, um--had became an ordained minister in the Episcopal church, and living in Iowa, the diocese was--or the--the bishop was located in--I guess it would be the diocese. Anyway, um, in Des Moines, Iowa, which is even further, it's probably a good five-, six-hour drive from here, um, but on a Sunday he was being ordained, 04:19:00and of course I want to be there, but it's drill weekend. And they threaten me with, um, demotion, uh, if--if I was not at drill. Um, we eventually work-- worked it out, but not without them being complete unreasonable jerks about it. Um, and y-- it--it was just never good.

Um, and there the, uh--the brigade command sergeant major told me, um, well, when you make E-9 you have to complete the Sergeants Major Academy. You have two options. You can do--do it by correspondence course, most of it, and then do, I think it's two or three weeks, um, at Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas. Um, in the summertime, um, you can do it that way, or you can do it, uh, a straight 04:20:00nine-month shot, um, active duty at Fort Bliss. And there again he mentioned the word active duty. I'm all over it. Plus it's just--it's a better way to do it. You know, you--you're integrated with other people, most of them are active duty. They have, um, students from the armies of other countries of comparable rank. Um, so it's a--it's a really big deal if you're selected to attend that--that course on active duty.

Um, but the sergeant major advised me to apply for the active-duty school. He said it was so much better. And so I did on his advice. And then, [laughs] apparently he didn't re-- relay that to his civilian staff because when I was selected and got the orders to go to the school, they were, again, very upset. 04:21:00They were mad initially because I was deployed. Um, that deployment, they were just like, you know, you could get out of this if you wanted to, you know, but it's like, well, that's not who I am, and, you know, I just, now. Trying to get out of a deployment is not what I'm gonna try to do. And even at that time I think I was, I don't know, maybe like six months away from having my twenty years, and I was not risking anything, you know, [laughs] especially a job that paid less than I would active duty.

So, um, yeah, the Eighty-Fourth Division on the civilian side of it was never, ever a good fit, and I was always, for lack of a better term, harassed. Someone might say that it wasn't really harassment, but I think it was. Um--

SPRAGUE: It sounds like to me you encountered a lot of difficulty.

BENN: At that unit, yes.

SPRAGUE: Eh, at that unit and even over--it seems like, r-- repeatedly over the span of your career that there were obstacles you ran into. Did you get that sense as well?

BENN: Yes. Yes.

SPRAGUE: Why do you think that was?

BENN: Um, my guess would be, well, initially, um, being female and, you know, '70s, '80s, you know, it was still a man's world primarily. Um, and even in the reserves, um, I would find, uh, I guess it--okay, so I was probably in these meetings as a civilian, not my military side, but, um, I'm still in the military, and, you know, um, staff meetings where you might have a dozen men and me. Um, you know, over and over and over throughout my career it was--it was 04:23:00like that, where at the time--and the--the figure was that the Army was composed of about 10 percent women at the time, and that pretty much followed suit with every staff meeting I was ever in. You know, there'd be nine guys or whatever and me, [laughs] if--you know, if ten people and I'm one of them, then, you know, that perfect 10- percent.

And, um, I think, yeah, so initially it was that, um, when I went to the Eighty-Fourth, I think that some of the issues with--with women were subsiding by then. But, um, that I was force fed on them at a--a senior NCO rank, um, where they were probably eyeballing the position for someone else and they--they just didn't like that. Um, and then when I got deployed, it--it--I had heard it 04:24:00before, that, um--that the military is the last one to be a good y-- for the civilians, they're not good, um, um--good stewards with the ESGR law, [laughs] or the rules without the Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve. The--the--the units that I worked for were, like, the first ones to not support me going on active duty, and it's like, you know, if we're one Army, [laughs]--

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: -- why are you giving me such a hard time about this? Um, so they hadn't liked it when I was deployed in '96, '97, and then '99 I get orders to go to Fort Bliss for almost a year. Um, so in--

SPRAGUE: Tell--tell us about El Paso. Tell us about that.

BENN: Oh, my, that was--that was an amazing, amazing tour. Um, the--there were four hundred-some of us in the class. Um, several from--oh, I--I'm sure there were at least a hundred international students. Um, and they divided us into, like, subsections, um, bigger groups. Um, that was either--was it three or four? Um, of the main group, and then from that you were broken down into class sizes of maybe twelve, fifteen people. Um, and in those class sizes, there were generally two females and, um, the rest would be men, and there were generally 04:26:00one or two from the guard or reserve. They--they tried to disperse everybody as much as possible.

Um, we had--in our bigger group we had, um--you know, you get to know people in your--your overall group more than you do, um, in the other bigger groups. Um, so we had a Serbian and a Bosnian. [laughs] And they were often prone to getting into some pretty nasty fights. Um, and we--we had to do a lot to keep them apart. Um, one of 'em was almost sent back. I don't recall which, but one of them was almost kicked out of the school and sent home, um, because of the issues. Um, but we--there's a big German contingency at, um, Fort Bliss. Um, and 04:27:00with that they have a German school, German restraint, everything on post. Um, it was nice to be around German things again. Um, by that time I'd had three tours in Germany, so obviously a strong connection there. Um, made a lot of good friends. Some of them I still keep in touch with.

I lived off post partly because it was housing that, at the end of that schoolyear, would start to be torn down. And by now it's--it's all replaced, torn down and replaced. But, um, they were these hideous--the kids called it Bedrock. There were, you know, flat-topped, stucco houses that really looked lot like the Flintstone's house.

SPRAGUE: Oh yeah, oh, wow.

BENN: So, um, but they were old and dilapidated, and plus I didn't want to live--I didn't want my neighbors to be the same people that I had to see in 04:28:00school in my classes every day.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: And, uh, so I opted to live off post, and my kids went to, um, a local school. Mind you, El Paso is right across the river from Juarez, Mexico. Um, at the time it wasn't as dangerous as it is now. For, oh, probably at least ten years they've had restrictions against military going to Juarez, but, um, when I was there we could go. We'd go over and shop and, um, go to restaurants and things like that. It was always a lot of fun going across the border. The base even had, um, shuttle busses that would, um, take us, um, and pick us up. So, um--

SPRAGUE: What about your children's experiences in school there?

BENN: Yeah, that was really different for them. Um, you got two little blonde haired, blue-eyed kids, um, that are in a predominant-- predominantly Hispanic schools. Um, my son was in sixth grade then in middle school. He had to wear, um, they called it a uniform. I call it more of a dress code, eh, either blue or khaki pants and a polo shirt, three colors to choose from, but the--the shirts had to be tucked in. They had to wear a belt. They couldn't have cargo pockets on their pants. Um, and I thought it was great. It equalized all the students. It made it really easy as a parent to get him dressed in the morning. Um, I really like the idea, plus it taught kids to tuck in their shirts and things like that.

Um, but anyway, um, the first week of school for my daughter, she was in third 04:30:00grade, and, uh, she came home in tears after maybe the second day. Uh, she was--she was crying. She was like, I'll never be able to say my teacher's name. It was a long Hispanic name, and she was just, you know, mortified. Um, and she didn't feel like she fit in and stuff. Um, my son also had a little trouble with that. Um, eh, within weeks, probably maybe three weeks, my daughter was speaking perfect Spanglish where half the sentence was Spanish and the other half was English. Um, and then my son, um, he was kind of bullied for a while. Um, there was one boy especially who would always say to him, "Hey, polar bear, why don't you go back where you came from?" Um, but he and that boy somehow ended up 04:31:00becoming very, very good friends. Um, and then I got to be good friends with his mother. And, um, twenty years later we're still good friends. I go back to El Paso every few years and visit.

Um, but my kids, I think they really--they learned a lot that year, learning what it is to be odd man out, to be, I guess, you say the minority. Um, they also, um--it--it was interesting to see how different regions teach different things as far as history and science. Um, science in El Paso focused a lot on space and aircraft. Um, and then history things were more related to, um, say, like the Alamo and, um, settling of the area and things like that. Um, science 04:32:00classes also included things about water conservation that you'll get in a desert region, things that you won't get here. Um, so they--not only did they learn things socially, they learned about some things, um, academically that--that they wouldn't have learned here in Wisconsin.

SPRAGUE: Okay. So you get done with sergeant major school. Get back to Wisconsin. And bring me up to September 11, 2001.

SPRAGUE: I was, um, back in the reserve status and working over on Wright Street here in Madison. Um, I was driving in. We had, um--we were allowed--because I was a technician and had to meet the military standards, we were allowed an hour 04:33:00of PT in the mornings three times a week. So, um, I'm pulling into the--I--I make the right turn off of East Wash. Um, the radio's on, and something about, you know, the Twin Towers being struck by an airplane, and, you know--and people--you know, the--people on the radio, you know, everybody's wondering what's going on? And then, um, as I'm parking the car, I listen for a little bit longer, and then it's the, "Oh my God," you know, the--a second plane has hit the Twin Towers. And, you know, I--I rush into the building.

Other people in the building are--are hearing it on their radios also. Um, somebody pulled out a TV form the training room, and we all went in the 04:34:00conference room, and--and everybody was sitting around glued to the TV. I had images of the movie, I think it was Red Dawn where the Russians are attacking. Um, and e-- that's--especially after they hit--hit the Pentagon, you know, that's when to me it became, okay, this is a military thing. There's, you know, um, ah, eh, like, an active terror, sure, against the Trade--the Twin Towers, um, the Trade Center, but especially when they hit the Pentagon, you know, that's like, you know, I guess that made it personal.

Um, and I remember I--I went--I--I rushed back to my office, and I called the teachers of the--the classrooms, you know. I t-- I called my kids' teachers, um, to let them know. My daughter by then has graduated, has graduated, um, but my kids would have been, I don't know, middle school. I guess my daughter might 04:35:00have been in fifth grade. Son maybe seventh or eighth. Um, but, um, I--I called the school, you know, to let them know that, you know, like--and here again, you know, this is long before people in the reserves are really acknowledged, um, in the civilian sector. Um, but I felt it was important cause if my kids h-- heard anything about it, they would think something's--you know, is Mom gonna have to go away again, you know?

SPRAGUE: Mm.

BENN: Um, or wondering, you know, is her building gonna be hit, you know? So I got ahold of the schools right away. Um, and we kind of--I think we spent most other day just sitting watching TV, just in shock. Um, I--somewhere along the line, I don't even recall when I did it. Um, of course, I was always looking for 04:36:00active-duty tours. Um, I had applied for something. It was with the inspector general at the Army Human Resources Command in Alexandria, Virginia, which is a DC suburb. Um--

SPRAGUE: Yeah, so tell me about that, that--leading into that, yeah?

BENN: [laughs] Okay, that goes way back to the very beginning.

SPRAGUE: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

BENN: Yeah, something else that I did talk about in Real Life Library. Um, so in the personnel regulations, everything ultimately goes to 200 Stovall Street, Alexandria, Virginia. [laughs] At one point I had the zip code memorized. But I--I don't anymore. Um, but for, well, the first seven years of my military career, as long as I was--when I was on active duty, everything, you know, it 04:37:00went up the channels, but everything went to--and if you had any questions, you were to call somebody at 200 Stovall Street, Alexandria, Virginia. Um, so I had applied for this job and didn't even really think about where it was at other than DC area.

Um, and it was like, I don't--I--I guess I didn't expect that I would be selected, and so much time had passed I didn't even remember applying for it by the time that I got a phone call. And, you know, this person announces his--himself as a lieutenant colonel so-and-so from the inspector generals' office. And I'm like, oh, cap, what did I do now, you know? [laughter] I'm thinking, dang, I'm really in trouble this time, you know.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: Um, but so he was calling to see if I was still interested, and, uh, uh, 04:38:00available for a two-year tour of duty in Alexandria. So sure, and it didn't hit me until the orders for that duty arrived, and it said on or about something June of 2002 you will report to 200 Stovall Street, Alexandria, Virginia. [laughs] And it was just such a, I don't know, ironic if--I don't know if that's the right word or what, but it was the same thing as when I finally got to go to the construction schoo-- the carpentry school where initially I was told, you know, girls can't do that. It's not open to women, you know.

So here again I'm having this big moment like, holy cow, I'm going to 200 Stovall Street, you know. And for anyone who worked personnel, you know, in 04:39:00those days, they've since reloaded--relocated to Fort Knox, Kentucky, but, you know, for me that was, uh, just something else coming full circle, and just to me personally significant. Um--

SPRAGUE: Tell me a little bit about the position because you also say in Real Life Library and maybe the pre-interview some--some interesting things about that position.

BENN: Um, okay--

SPRAGUE: Not to put you on the spot. [laughs]

BENN: No, no, um, so initially, um, so it's the summer of 2002. We haven't yet invaded Iraq. Um, but of course, so we had, you know, the units that have deployed to Afghanistan, um, plus normal, um, changes in duty stations. Um, and 04:40:00I don't recall exactly when Bush started pushing to go into Iraq, but especially in the months leading up to it, um, probably from the first of the year, 2003, there was a big, big push on it. Um, I remember one speech that Bush did that was televised, and it was, you know, talking about Saddam Hussein and, um, somebody--maybe it was q question from the press, you know, and where he--the words he said, "We're talking about the men who tried to kill my daddy," and I just thought, that is not a valid reason." [laughs]

Um, but I also remember then in March, St. Paddy's Day, um, a bunch of us went 04:41:00out and were sitting in an Irish pub and where, like they had a little band, a little Irish band. Um, they stopped playing. We knew that there was gonna be--you know, the [president was doing a big, um, speech, whatever you call it. I--sorry, I'm at a loss for words right now. Um, but he was addressing the nation with all the reasons that that we should invade Iraq. Um, and I remember thinking, you know, my gosh, we're in an Irish pub on St. Patrick's Day watching a political speech, you know. When would that ever happen, you know?

Um, so then we, um--it does happen, about a week later, um, coincidentally it was March 21 was--is my youngest daughter's birthday. Um, that was the day of the invasion. I still have Time magazine with that on the cover and that date. 04:42:00[laughs] Um, at that point I was still in touch with a lot of people that I had known at the sergeants major academy. Um, it was, what, three years since we had left there? It was '9-- no, it was 2000. It was '99-2000 that I was in El Paso. Um, and 2002 then, so yeah, it had only been barely two years. Um, I was still in touch with a lot of people. Um, and even--there were some special forces guys that I had stayed in touch with, and even when the--early after 9/11, um, you know, the SF [Special Forces] went first into Afghanistan, um, so he had emailed some pictures of them out, um, you know, conducting things way out in the--the sandy mountains and all this.

And, um, anyway, uh, well, yeah, I would share those with other people eat work 04:43:00because at yet, no reserve units had gone anywhere. And I would share 'em with my kids, you know. Remember so-and-so from Texas? You know, like this, is what they're doin' now, and, um, so anyway, uh, I was in touch with a lot of people still, but then when we made the decision to go into Iraq, there, of course, the Army's logic, you know, huh, we'll take the ones that, uh, you know, have already been there, the ones that no--the Middle East, you know, which is, gee, whiz, that's the units that just came back. There was no policy in place for back-to-back deployments.

Um, there was a rule that, you know, you--you wouldn't return to Afghanistan within, I think at the time it was six months, but there was nothing about going to another area of operations, Iraq. So initially they tried to take people who 04:44:00had just come back from Afghanistan, units, um, and send them right away to Iraq. And of course, those people are protesting. Um, the IG [inspector general], naturally, heavily involved with that. Um, so we were--as inspector general you don't write policy. You only advise. Um, but we were heavily involved, um, with, um, the writing of policy that would come to apply to both active and reserve and guard units and personnel.

Um, they also didn't expect that any of it would have gone on as long as it has. Um, you know, even at the time they were thinking we'd be in and out of Iraq within months. Um, so you have people that are coming from hardship tours in Korea, um, you know, and then you--you get to your States side unit, and thirty 04:45:00days later, oh, guess what, you're going to Iraq, you know? And then they're sayin' oh, no, I'm not, you know.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, we had a lot of things, issues with that. Um, we had,--of course, there's the people who enlisted for the money and/or the benefits and never thought they would have to go anywhere ever. Um, and so those people, you know, some claiming conscientious objector. Some claiming family hardships, um, a variety of reasons. Um, things that I--our--our whole team, our whole office but things that I was involved with, um. You know, resea-- rech--sorry, researching regulations and, um, finding the answer, and the answer was not always what someone wanted to hear. Um, I guess from my personnel side of things and maybe 04:46:00from being a mom or it's just my personality, um, but I was pretty good at breaking bad news to someone. You know, I would explain to them exactly why. Um, and with a lot of things, I learned especially, like when people are denied a promotion or something, um, you know, explain why, and here's what you can do to, you know, increase your changes, um, things like that.

So when I would explain to people why their--their reason was not good enough to prevent them to-- from deploying, I think they took it a lot better from me. Um, and even my--my supervisors recognized that. Um, um, we worked with IG offices at, um, all of the Army bases around. Um, some of those guys who eventually come 04:47:00to deploy with their units. Um, lot of times you'd be on the phone with someone in Afghanistan and Iraq, um, and it'd be like, "Oh, wait a minute, I hear--I hear something coming in, you know. We're probably gonna get cut off," and you'd hear, you know, like then this explosion, and then it's dead. And--and you're wondering, you know, like, my Gosh, i-- is that--am I ever gonna hear from him again, or, you know, is this his time. Um, and just really strange feeling with that, you know.

Um, there were a lot of people who were not happy with the answers that I would give them. Um, I'd be willing to bet there's probably close to 100 congressional complaints with my name on 'em during those couple of years I was there. Um, but 04:48:00every time that--that, um--that something like that came about, um, I--I was never found to be int eh wrong. Um, but there were a lot of unhappy people.

SPRAGUE: So you were charged with this duty, to-- to talk to these people that--

BENN: Yeah.

SPRAGUE: Was there a specific name to that or that position?

BENN: It's just part of the inspector general, um, in the complaints division. The IG is, um, investigation and inception, pretty much. Um, and--and complaints.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, and our job was basically, you know, research the policy. What does the regulation say? You know, it doesn't matter what you th-- you know, if you think that it's right or wrong, you have to follow the policy as it's established. Um--

SPRAGUE: So one of the things that you say in a Real Life or in your pre-interview was you believed you were the only woman to hold that position?

BENN: No, no, that--that--that's--

SPRAGUE: No? Straighten me out on that.

BENN: I will. Um--

SPRAGUE: Tell me where that is, cause I'm curious if that's related to this or different.

BENN: We--we had an IG in Iraq, um, a--a sergeant major. Um, I don't recall which unit he was with, one of the big infantry divisions, um, but he got himself into some trouble and got sent home. And so the IG from the--the IOG, the Office of the Inspector General for the Army at the Pentagon, um, eh, the sergeant major from that office, uh, was gonna go replace him. So they were looking for someone to replace that person at the Pentagon. And it had to be someone local within the DC area, and there's several bases there that have 04:50:00inspector general offices. Um, and somehow, uh, I was selected. I--I don't recall how many others they had been eyeing. Um, but somehow me, especially as a reservist, um, somehow I was selected for that position, um, and, um, I learned later--well, it was--it's slotted, it's designated as a 11B infantryman position. Um, and so that's the reason that no female had ever held the job.

Um, and I guess the logic to that would be, you know, the majority of the Army, you know, most of them are combat arms, um, or those would be the people dealing with the bigger problems, not the support people. Um, so yeah, I got that 04:51:00position. And I was beyond thrilled. Um, the very first staff meeting that I was in, [laughs] um, I was the only enlisted person, the only female, and, um, the lowest rank were--we had a couple of lieutenant colonels and several full-bird colonels, um, a two-star general who was the assistant IG or the deputy IG, and then the three-star general who was the IG. And, um, so the general sits in the middle at the head table, the two-star to his left and me to his right. And I was thinking, like, holy cow, first of all being so short, I was like, you know, ooh, I need to sit up taller in my chair.

And, um--and then I started thinking to myself, like, wow, this is big. This is really big, you know. And, just kind of flashing back, you know, from where I started in the Army, you know, a rowdy kid who didn't have anything better to do. Um, now here I am sitting in the Pentagon and blah, blah, blah, you know, and I'm thinking, this is really big, and trying to sit up taller and taller in my chair. [laughs] And then I realized that my feet didn't touch the floor, and I made myself giggle when I had that thought popped in my mind of, you know, when I realized my feet didn't reach. And so everybody turned and looked at me, and it was--it was just so funny. And, um, when I--when I was leaving, uh, we had a--a bug luncheon, and I explained to them then what it was that made me laugh at that meeting. At the time I tried to cover it with a cough, you know, a 04:53:00giggle turned cough. But, yeah, that was--that was pretty funny.

SPRAGUE: So--

BENN: I think that was the thing in Real Life.

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: That it was--yeah.

SPRAGUE: So I--I've got you going to, uh, inspector general school?

BENN: Yes.

SPRAGUE: Later on, tell me about that in '08.

BENN: That was when I first went--

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: -- um, to Virginia.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, we had to complete that school, uh, before I could, um, work as an IG.

SPRAGUE: That would make sense, okay.

BENN: Mm-hmm.

SPRAGUE: So that's a little out of sequence, but okay. Um, anything else you remember about that position?

BENN: We were working on a lot of really, really big changes in Army policy. Um, I was working with, like, the--they were fellow sergeants major, um, other 04:54:00inspector general, um, from the big commands, the big divisions, and all around the world, you know, every Army base, um. Well, not every, but you know, division level where they had, um, that rank for IGs. And, uh, so that part was like--it was fascinating, but it--it was also like, you know, just--it was critical things that we were doing. Um, one of the biggest things, so at that time, that's when Walter Reed was being investigated for not taking care of patients in a timely matter. Um, think it was Fort Stewart, Georgia that was not processing, uh, medically unfit or medically disqualified people, um, fast enough.

Um, a lot of things that were going on with medical issues. Um, we had a lot of 04:55:00severely injured soldiers with, you know, we can't keep them in the hospital forever. We can't send them back to their units. What do we do with them? And, um, I was involved on the--the policy making that brought us CBOC [Community-Based Outpatient Clinics][??], the civilian-based--I don't even remember what the O stands for, the civilian-based care that, um, um--that the guard and reserve and I think even active duty, um, you know, where someone is allowed to go back home, and then you're attached to a reserve or guard unit, and--and, um--and treated locally, um, so that fa-- you know, you'd be closer to your family and everything, and the family didn't have to try to support the--the house at home and leave the kids or whatever and go sit with the wounded soldiers in Walter Reed or wherever.

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm.

BENN: Um, so a lot of, uh, big discussions. Um, it was also when the Army decided to get rid of the BDU, the battle dress uniform, the first camo uniform that we had, and go to the ACU [Army combat uniform], um, the ones that are more the desert looking or the--the newer pattern. Um, and that, oh my, I remember some of the reasonings. Um, you would have reps from all the major commands at these--these meetings at the Pentagon. Um, one of 'em was from recruiting command. And he's saying, like, you know, the Marines have a better u-- looking uniform. We need one like theirs because it's really hurting recruiting. And I'm thinking, good grief, for that you want to blow how many million? You know, 04:57:00[laughs] you're still gonna be in the Army, no matter how we paint you. [laughs]

Um, but yeah, some of the logic that went into that decision was, uh--was interesting. [laughs] Um, and things like that, that, um, you know, the general population even within the Army, um, wouldn't be aware of those--those minor factors. Um, let's see. What else were we doing at that time? We were writing the policy on--on, um, how to prevent people from back-to-back tours, um, in different theaters. Um, let's see. We implemented or, you know, had a say, we gave guidance for implementing different policies with the reserve and guard. Like, if you're coming off active duty and, um, you've been deployed within the 04:58:00past year, that you would have a year in a reserve unit before--even if the unit deployed, you didn't have to go. Um, so major, major personnel policy changes.

Um, yeah, I guess that was pretty much it, um, with the Pentagon. Um--

SPRAGUE: Mm-hmm. So tell me about your time after that and what happened next?

BENN: Um, well, back to 200 Stovall Street, Alexandria, Virginia. Back to the human resource command. Um, we had--not only were we dealing with, um, people who thought they shouldn't have to deploy to a combat zone. We were addressing issues, um, f-- things occurring on other bases, things that were going on in 04:59:00the theaters of operation. We had one lieutenant colonel who, um, was married, but he had an online dating profile and was also engaged to half a dozen women. And when they finally all figured it out, major IG complaint. Um, he got quickly retired. [laughs]

Um, we had, um--we had a hand in, um, Michelle Witmer from the Wisconsin guard. They--I could not be allowed in that case because, um, um, I was from Wisconsin, and they thought that there may or may not be, but just to prevent any--any look of--of inappropriateness, I was--I was not involved with that. Um, but she had a twin sister who was also in the guard. Um, and somehow the Iraqis became aware 05:00:00of that, and they were making threats against her sister, or, you know, to the Army in general. They didn't know exactly who she was or where she was or even if she was in Iraq, but just to be mean it was, you know, we got her. Now we're goin' for her twin sister. And, um, so the IG got involved with that, um, and then coordinating with commands and making sure that her sister did not go to Iraq. Um, and of course, being the good soldier that she was, she didn't want the special treatment. She didn't want to not go when the rest of her unit was going, but, you know, the Army says no, [laughs] is what it came down to.

Um, and, you know, things like that that probably anyone who's not close to the 05:01:00unit or the family would never have known about. Um, and I think it's okay to talk about those things. They're not classified. We had--so again, you know, at--at that point in time there's a lot of upgrading to the automated systems. And, um, particularly with the--the DEERS system, the Defense Eligibly and Enrollment System, um, which people think of as it covers the ID cards, but it also, um, lists eligibility for things, um, like, dependents to have medical or commissary PX benefits. And once they started merging some systems, they found a few people that had, [laughs] more than one wife. [laughs] And it got caught because of the military, um, you know. We had one high-ranking individual who 05:02:00had a--a wife in South America and a wife in the US. And of course they didn't know about it. Another one who had one in the US, one in Korea, and one in Germany. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Three different wives in three different countries. And it had been running smoothly until the DEERS system was upgraded and all the--the systems started interlinking and picking up these errors. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Oh my God.

BENN: So yeah, a lot of, uh, high-ranking people that got, uh, very quick retirements. Um, there was also at the time a case at West Point where, um, I believe he was lieutenant colonel, um, murdered his wife. Um, claimed that she was out for a run and never came back. And, ultimately they found that he had, um--had killed her. Um, and--

SPRAGUE: Hmm.

BENN: -- we were involved with that investigation. So yeah, lot of really 05:03:00unusual circumstances that, uh--that I was part of the investigation for.

SPRAGUE: So can we go up to September 2008? Are we there, are we close to there?

BENN: Okay.

SPRAGUE: Yeah, tell me about r-- tell me about retirement.

BENN: Um, okay, first off, I'll say that when I left active duty, um, eh, I was deemed physically fit to remain in service. Um, I'm transferred back to the IRR, the Individual Ready Reserve, with the intent of going back to a unit.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

BENN: Um, and when I tried to go back to a unit, I was told, you're not medically qualified. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: What?

BENN: And so that started, uh, what ended up being a three-year process. It's supposed to be done in less than a year. I forget, is it six or nine months? Something like that. Um, with numerous trips to Fort Knox, Kentucky, um, unpaid because, uh, you can't do any paid duty when you're in a medical hold status. Um, I got reimbursed for the travel expenses, but, um, it was unpaid duty. And eventually, I wasn't part of it, but because of many IG complaints, they started giving retirement points at least for the days that people in that circumstance, um, you know, at least got some credit for the days they spent in uniform at Fort Knox, um, for whatever medical reasons.

Um, eventually I--I didn't think that I would--I didn't expect that I would get 05:05:00medically retired. Um, I was--I had applied for other active-duty tours. Um, there was an IG position in Albuquerque with, um, Defense Threat Reduction Agency, where they didn't want to a hire a, um--a civilian. They didn't want to hire a temp that they would have to train. They were looking for, you know, either a retired active-duty person with IG experience or someone in the reserve or guard. Um, oh, that's another--I'll have to backtrack to, um, eh, some TDY [temporary duty travel] I had with Defense Threat Reduction Agency, DTRA, um, in DC. I'll come back to that in a minute. Um, I also applied for a tour, um, to go to Kuwait, um, as a--a senior personnel NCO. Um, it was--yeah, none of that, 05:06:00obviously, happened cause I was in medical hold.

Um, but I--kept thinking that, you know, any day now. Any day now they're gonna clear me, and I'm gonna get to go do something again. Um, of course that didn't happen, and then I got notified, um, that I was found unfit for continued service. I'm certain that my length of service and my rank probably played into that. Um, well, and the age as well. By then I had a little over thirty-one years credible service, and, um, being at the top of the, you know--the scale for rank, um, I think that had a lot to do with it. If I'd been a twenty-year-old E-5 I probably would have been retained. Um, so anyway, um, I 05:07:00was retired, um, on the thirtieth of September, 2008, um, by--by way of, uh, first I got a letter saying, and then a day or two later I got a copy of orders. [laughs]

And, you know, like, where even in the reserves and the guard, you know, they have--you know, you have retirement ceremonies every month, you know. Um, [laughs] and this was just sort of like, in the mail. Here you go. [laughs]

SPRAGUE: Wow.

BENN: Um, which to me, it really didn't matter cause I--I don't really care much about the big ceremony and all that, but it was still a little jab.

SPRAGUE: But still.

BENN: You know. Um, but it didn't affect the pay, so--[laughs] Um, but backing up to when I was still in the DC area, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia there's the 05:08:00headquarters for DTRA, and it's an organization, um, probably more civilians with a certain number of active duty. Um, and their mission is the--the whole nuclear, um--reducing the--the number of nuc-- nuclear weapons and, um--and monitoring, especially in Russia and former Soviet Union countries, um, monitoring what they're doing. Um, and the person, the civilian who was the head of the IG there, um, had been--he had worked in the same office as me, um, in Alexandria, um, for maybe a year or so. Uh, and he was a retired lieutenant colonel. Um, but we had worked together, and he felt that I was a--a respectable 05:09:00IG. Um, they were going to TDY to Moscow for two weeks to, um, inspect personnel records and other, like, procedural things.

Um, but it involved both military and civilian. And so they were looking for someone who had experience with both. And of course, I fit the bill, um, because of my--my time as, you know, federal service. Um, so initially, when I was asking, you know, to be released from my job to go, um, they call it permissive TDY where the--the owning organization doesn't have to pay for anything. You're on loan to the other place, and they pay for it all. But you still need supervisor, chain of command permission to do this. And initially, um, the--the 05:10:00colonel that I worked for thought that I was trying to go on something that would be, like, inspecting missile--missile sites and things like that, um, and so initially it was no, and I was heartbroken. And then the guy that used to work with us called him and said, you know, hey, you know, this is what we're doing, and I really, really need her, and then he was like, oh, okay, I see.

And he let me go. Um, so I got to go to Moscow. And, um, it was amazing. Um, being there, um, what were probably by then, might have been '0-- '04, I think. Um, so what, a dozen years or so after the Soviet Union fell apart, um, things still not quite worked out. Um, and of course, relations with Russia weren't the 05:11:00same as they are right now. Um, and still some danger involved in going there. And, of course, you know, being a representative of the US and the military and everything, um, you have to be absolute best behavior. Um, and certain things like once you enter the embassy, there's different clearance that you have to go to. And I don't know if it's really true or not. Maybe nobody knows. Maybe it's just a huge precaution, but it was like when you go through these areas, you cannot talk. You know, you walk down this hallway, or you go through this room, you do not talk because they believe that it was bugged by the Russians so that they could overhear things.

And in the offices where people worked, there's, like, extra soundproofing, and they screen it routinely to make sure that nothing's been--been bugged. Um, so 05:12:00it was like every Cold War novel that I've ever read, you know. Um, but just really, I--I felt so privileged to--to be there and be a part of that. Something again that, you know, as a seventeen-, eighteen-year-old I would have never dreamed that that's where the Army would take me.

SPRAGUE: So what on the whole, um, what has it meant for you to serve?

BENN: Um, goodness. I guess what I initially started with, you know, get away from home, travel some, um, do things that I had never done before, course, I had just graduated high school, so that would have been limited anyway, but, um, 05:13:00you know, just the adventure and the benefits, money for college. Um, learning a skill, all those things that were the initial reason, and what it came out to be in the end, um, overcoming things that were initially major obstacles or simply not allowed. Um, watching as--as the times changed. Um, I guess being part of that change, you know, uh, we--being part of, especially when I was at the Pentagon, part of, um, a team that--that made major changes to Army policy, that helped thousands of people, um, es-- you know, as we wrote policy for the medical and for the personnel things. Um, I guess just being part of something 05:14:00bigger than me, and, um, trying to do the right thing for the country.

Um, what's happened in the years since we invaded Iraq and even just yesterday, that bunch of recently disclosed information about Afghanistan, you know, where, you know, it makes you wonder what has this all really been about? But at the time, um, you know, believing that it was in the best interest of the country and our people. Um, yeah.

SPRAGUE: So how do you think your life has been different as a result of military service?

BENN: I don't believe that I would have been able to retire at the age I did. In fact, I'm probably 110 percent certain of it. Um, I may have never had the 05:15:00retirement benefits that I have now. Um, because so many private industry, you know, most of them aren't carrying, say, health insurance into retirement. Um, so many things like that, um, I--I may have never gotten a bachelor's degree. I know for certain I would--never would have gotten my masters. Um, I know that I wouldn't have been able to live in the places I've lived. Yeah, there's, goodness, so many things. Um, the experiences I've had, the friendships made, a few--yeah, it's--it's just hard to explain it all.

Sure, there were hard times. There were bad times, but that's part of life. Um, builds character, you know. I know that I'm a much stronger person because of the challenges I faced. Um, yeah, I--I don't--I don't know what else I could say about it. Overall, much better than I probably would have done had I never enlisted. I think I learned a lot of--I learned a lot about integrity. Um, not to say that my siblings lack it, but, um, of five--five kids, five--five of us, my brothers and sisters, only one other has served. He was in the Navy for four years. Um, but they just don't have the same standards that I do. And some of 05:17:00mine are probably a little overboard. Um, I know there's a lot that I need to back off on, but, um, just that integrity and, you know, a standard. Like, no, this is the way it needs to be done. This is the only acceptable way to do it.

Or even things with, like, little petty lies, you know, little white lies, fibs, whatever. Um, you know, just, no. Just say it like it is. Um, so yeah, a lot of things that just have to do with integrity that probably, um, and especially as I progress through the ranks and definitely as an IG, you know you really have to watch your back because you're the person--I mean, not watch your back, but, you know, police yourself because one little thing out of line, you know, I'm the person who's telling everybody else where they're wrong. I can't risk 05:18:00my--you know, my identity, my--my self-respect, you know, in that way. So yeah, I think--and also then physical fitness. Um, being tied to the--the weight standard, um, especially being a short person. Um, there's not much place for a couple pounds to go.

Um, but having, you know, been held to the running especially, you know, the cardiovascular, um, I know that I'm in much better shape than countless people my age. Um, and aside from bad shoulders from all the push-ups , [laughter] um, yeah. Overall, I--I know that I'm far better than--you know, health wise, personally, all that, than--than I probably would have been had I not been in 05:19:00the Army.

SPRAGUE: So what motivated you to do this interview?

BENN: Um, you know, I've been asked through the years a number of times about it. Um, I never got around to doing it, obviously. Um, for a long time I felt it was reserved for people who really did something, you know. Like, um, I know some of the older World War II era ladies, um, most of them, for some reason, happened to be Marines. Um, i-- i-- within Dane County, um, a few of 'em have passed in recent years, but, um, there's Connie Allord. I--do you know her? Um, most--

SPRAGUE: Sounds familiar.

BENN: -- everybody know her. She'll turn a hundred next month, a Marine in World 05:20:00War II. Um, you know, women like that who were, like, really, clearly among the first. Um, and then other people like my neighbor Floyd who was a prisoner of war in Germany during World War II, um, you know, sort of your local hometown hero. And I didn't think that I had ever really done anything that was good enough, um, or worthy enough of--of being recorded. Um, I also read a lot of, uh, um, nonfiction, historical things, um, especially stories about women who've done remarkable things, not only military women. Um, so, um, also I do a lot of, um, I guess you could say, as--as a volunteer, a lot of outreach or adv-- advocacy type of work, and especially then with women veterans.

And as I'm telling other women that, no, no, your service matters, you know, you need to get your story recorded at the--at the veterans' museum, I have given your contact info to so many other people, you know, and it's like--[laughs]

SPRAGUE: Yeah.

BENN: And s-- I--yeah, I guess I finally decided, um, also partly I guess getting older. I turned sixty last month. So you know, like, well, okay, maybe I should--I should just do this.

SPRAGUE: Is there anything else that you would like to cover?

BENN: Um, I know that when I started with my first tour in Germany, um, I talked about a number of negative things. Um, there were still a lot of fun things. Um, there's a German man who grew up, um, near a mili-- an Army base, um, who's 05:22:00writing a book. It's called America was Around the Corner. Um, I've been contact with him, uh, through social media. Um, about, like, just funny stories, you know, unusual stories. Um, and one of 'em that I think made his book, um, [laughs] one evening a group of us went out, maybe six or so, and, um, we went down--so Frankfurt, Germany, Sachsenhausen is the, uh, like, say, sort of State Street is to Madison, um, lot of bars and such.

Um, so--and I had not been down there yet. It was pretty early on. Um, went with a group of people down there. And we ended up being out passed the time when the 05:23:00train stopped running, the subways. And between us--this is long before, you know, we were young and would have never gotten a credit card and long before debit cards were ever thought of. Um, everything's cash, and, uh, [laughs] between us, we didn't have enough money for a taxi. So we set out thinking that, you know, oh, we'll just walk back to the barracks. It was way farther than you would walk even if you hadn't had a night out on the town. Um, and after a while of walking, one of the guys is like, "I know a place we can go." And we'll all like, you know, woo, where is it, you know? [laughs] Under the bridge with the homeless people. [laughter]

And we slept from, like, 2:00 in the morning, um, I think the trains--it was the weekend. I think they started running again at 6:00, 7:00 maybe. Probably four 05:24:00hours or so that we were--you know, we didn't have sleeping bags, blankets, anything, you know. [laughs] But it was just the funniest story, you know. Um, yup, nowhere to go, no money to get home, sleeping under the bridge with the homeless people. [laughter] So yeah, and even when, you know--even when things were bad, there was always something good to be found, you know. Um, at least, you know, I--I always had a paycheck. I always had, you know--I was never without the basics. So yeah.

SPRAGUE: Okay then. Well, that concludes the interview. Thank you for your time today.

BENN: Thank you. And everyone who might ever listen to this, thank you for listening. And thank you for giving me the opportunity.

SPRAGUE: Okay.

[Interview Ends]